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  Discussion on Need bit/bitting advice
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Member:
leec

Posted on Sunday, Nov 11, 2007 - 7:59 pm:

Hi All,

I’m looking for some advice/feedback about putting a horse back into a bit after being ridden in a mechanical hackamore for a couple of years. I just purchased a 5 1/2 year old QH gelding that has the quietest, kindest most wonderful disposition. He has not been used much at all since he had 30 days on him as a 3 yr old. He has been used as a recreational trail horse (ridden western) and although green, he’s pretty much unflappable and very tolerant. These are the reasons I bought him as I wanted a safe and sane horse for my VERY beginner husband. When I tried him out, I asked why he was in a hackamore, as opposed to a bit. The reason was, he was fussing with the bit to the point that it was really annoying, so being that the owner was riding her other horse with a mechanical hackamore, she decided to try it and he was so good that she didn’t bother with the bit again. I know the trainer who put 30 days on him, so I talked to her about him and she said she had him in a medium thickness jointed egg butt snaffle and he was fine. She suggested maybe his teeth were bothering him, but he has always been up to date with them (his wolf teeth were removed when he was 2). The trainer felt it would be better to put him back in a mild bit if a novice is going to be riding him. I noticed his steering needs work and I am not experienced with a mechanical hackamore, but it appears it might be kind of a confusing tool to teach a horse to turn with. It seems to me something better suited to a horse that knows how to neck rein (which I want him to do eventually). Also, he raises his head when he backs up or stops (with minimal rein contact) and I think it might be easier to teach him balance and get his head down with a bit. Anyway, today I put a snaffle on him and he was tolerant of it, but not comfortable – which I expected some chomping and head twisting at first, but he carried on for the whole ½ hr the bit was in his mouth. I’ve bitted young horses before and usually after a few minutes they relax (maybe he just needs several sessions...). I did not ride him with the bit, I just did some flexing from the ground. I don’t want to tie his mouth shut with a cavesson, because if the bit is truly causing him discomfort, I think that would be cruel. One thing I noticed about him is he has a short, wide head, with a fat muzzle and a big jowl (he is foundation bred, maybe those are characteristics of his breeding...?). When viewed from the side, his mouth looks 'short'. When I adjusted the bridle so the bit sat at the corners of his mouth where one would typically sit, it was like it was too low and maybe banging his incisors. When I adjusted it tighter, it just looked all wrong - too many creases in the corners of his mouth, as though an inexperienced person bridled him. In either place it sat, it just was not cozy for him. Has anyone else heard of this, where possibly the conformation of his mouth is not going to allow for a bit to sit properly? Has anyone had this experience and found a bit that works? I want him to remain happy and to continue to enjoy being ridden, so any suggestions would be appreciated. I wondered if he might be a candidate for a bitless bridle. He has a good whoa and he is not at all excitable.

Thanx, LeeC
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Sunday, Nov 11, 2007 - 10:02 pm:

Hi Lee,

Google Dr. Hillary Clayton and read some of her very interesting research on bits and bit fit. And yes, some horses are harder to fit than others. I've never owned a horse that couldn't be comfortable in some form of a loose ring snaffle, but they have had different preferences about thickness, french link, material, etc.. I've used mylars on horses that I think resembled your description, and they seemed to conform a bit to their mouths. There are cheaper knockoffs too.

Also remember the old truism that a bit is only as severe as the hand that controls it. Likewise a hackamore-- I've seen plenty of big jumpers set on their frantic butts in a hackamore, so it's all about finding the thing that completes your connection to your horse.

Good luck!
Member:
leilani

Posted on Sunday, Nov 11, 2007 - 10:45 pm:

Hi Lee,

I like my Bitless Bridle. My mare never had any issues with the smooth mouth snaffle, but I just wanted to give the BB a try. I don't regret it.

I did wonder how she and I would handle a situation when I needed to use the one rein stop. My brain was used to a bit in her mouth, etc. We had the chance a couple of weeks ago and no problem. I was able to shut her engine down just as if she had metal in her mouth.

Good luck.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 6:13 am:

Hi Lee I had a hard time fitting Hank with a bit also. I tried quite a few snaffles and he never seemed comfortable in any of them. I rode him in a sidepull (still do sometimes) for quite a few years.

When I decided to try a bit again for a little more refinement I got the sidepull with a bit. For him it works great, it is the only bit he seems comfortable in and never fussed with it from the beginning. I don't know if the rope nose makes the bit sit a little differently? It is just a ring snaffle which he fussed with in a different bridle. He also has that broad head.
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=30e075cc-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204 ae5
Member:
dove2

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 6:36 am:

Lee, I am having some of the same problems with my young (5 y.o.) horse, except he's gotten use to riding nicely in a bosal instead of a hackamore. He never respected the snaffle, even as a 2 and 3 year old, and so the lady I bought him from put him directly into a curb bit. I did not want to train him in a curb, so I put him in a snaffle. I was always told that a double jointed snaffle (like a french link) was the mildest bit available, but I have recently been told that there is no relief for the tongue from the middle section. My horse tolerated the double jointed snaffle, but after about a month and half in only the bosal, when I went back to the french link, he really fussed. I switched to the single joined snaffle (the regular type) and he's since gotten use to it. It took about two or three rides for him to settle down to it. More recently, he's reverted back to running through the bit, especially at faster gaits - but that's another post. Have you given your fellow several sessions in the snaffle? Sometimes it's just a matter of getting use to it, and of course, sympathetic hands.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 6:52 am:

Lee,

My suggestions would be the really mild 3 part KP snaffle. A little thick, a nice fat middle piece that don't pinch, D's on the side.

Another option is the Hank Bit. You can use it off the rings that go on the part over the nose and the bit only comes into play when you lift the reins up on the rings. Or you can use the bit. BUT, the bit is just regular snaffle and I find it's not big enough (5") for all horses. The 3 part snaffle comes in 5 1/2".

My choice would be the 3 part snaffle; make sure it's not the Bristol link, or French link as they can be sharp. The one I am talking about is very inexpensive also.

PLUS: Have his teeth been done? He may need dental work. If you try the 3 part snaffle and he's still not comfortable, have his teeth checked.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 10:09 am:

So, just to crack open a can of worms, a completely quiet mouth may not indicate bit comfort. There is miserable fussing, and there is relaxed mouthing of the bit, which indicates that the horse is relaxed through the throat etc.. There are also horses who tighten their jaws and use the tongue to protect themselves from the bit-- this *looks* quiet but is just a horse's mute way of defending himself.

And some horses will fuss with anything new, so if the bit looks humane and correctly fitted, then you need to give the horse a chance to figure it out before abandoning it.
Member:
leec

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 11:10 pm:

Wow, thank you all for your thoughts and ideas!

Elizabeth, if he were a little more finished, I would probably leave him in the hackamore for myself and put him in a side pull for my husband until 'they' learn to balance. I am definitely going to google the Dr. you suggested. At this point he's not relaxed and quietly mouthing. He's chomping with his mouth open mostly - neck stretched out, head twisted sideways. It looks like he's trying to push the bit out of his mouth with his tongue and he rubs the rings on whatever's close, as though to pull it out of his mouth. This is with no reins attached and regardless to how tight or loose the headstall is.

Speaking of the sidepull, Diane, interesting that you bring it up. He was started in one before he was advanced to the jointed egg butt that the trainer put him in. I did not realize there was a version with a bit - thanks for the tip, I'm going to check it out!

Lelani, which 'brand' of bitless bridle are you using? From what I've read there is the 'original' one and since then there are a few variations of it on the market. There is at least one manufacturer I think that offers a money back guarantee. With the bitless, do you have any problems collecting your horse and in your opinion would it be difficult to teach a horse to neck rein with it?

No, Dove, we haven't had many sessions, so it is possible I am not giving it enough of a chance. However, I am also going by why his previous owner took him out of a bit - he was constantly mucking with it. I haven't involved my hands yet, as I wanted him to get used to the feel of a bit again on his own. In the hackamore, he's ridden on a loose rein, except to apply enough contact on one side or the other to encourage him turn (in conjunction with leg and seat aids...).

I am going to make note of the suggestions you've given Angie, and take them with me to the tack store this weekend. Along with that I'm going to re-measure the width of his mouth. I'm sure it's with all tack stores, but at our one and only one in town, if you try a bit you can't return it even if it doesn't work. However, sometimes they have a few 'demos' and maybe they'll have a couple that match, or are similar to your suggestions. His teeth are up to date, I have all his records of floatings, cap removals etc. - his previous owner uses the same vet I use.

Well, you've all given me lots of ideas and things to think about! I will keep you posted as to how it goes!

Thanx, Lee
Member:
juliem

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 11:40 pm:

In my opinion, a mechanical hackamore is very severe and in the wrong hands or even inexperienced hands can be a disaster. An average person can probably break a horses jaw with the leverage of those things. If you let your husband ride this horse with the mechanical hackamore, be very sure he understands NOT to apply steady pressure but to quickly release after a pull. These provide no way for the horse to get away from steady pressure and I have personally seen two horses go up and over backwards on their rider from the pressure of a mechanical hackamore. Neither of these horses had a previous habit of that! A bosal is an entirely different matter and is truly a hackamore. I have noticed the English version has much shorter shanks and fits a bit differently, but have no experience with them, but admit to having a very strong aversion to the western one.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 6:10 am:

Lee,

Based on your last post it sounds like a couple of things are going on. First thought I had was he's just not used to a bit. Second thought was the bit don't fit him right.

Have you tried a snaffle that you are sure fits, and just left it on him? I mean for hours to see if he stops the activity? If that don't work, try a sweet iron mouth piece. I really think it's a case of just letting him wear it, but then I've never experienced what you are going through for more than a day or 2.

There are also bits with rollers, and mouthing keys to help the horse get used to it. LOTS of possibilities huh?

My one gelding who needs the bigger bit, is only happy if the bit is large enough that I can slide my little finger between the bit and his lip. Because he needs a bigger than 5" bit, I have yet to find a solid bit that he likes. (He's not just starting out like yours)

A small wooden dowel can be used to measure his mouth.

If it were my horse, I'd stay with a snaffle until he's trained better. You say he's so quiet and wonderful, it's hard to believe he won't accept the bit, huh?

And I agree with Julie, the hackamore can be very severe. Get this horse used to a snaffle, and teach your husband the one rein stop, and to never pull back on both reins to stop. My husband rides very seldom and I know how ya feel with trying to help you husband ride, keep him safe, the horse safe, not get either one of them messed up, etc. LOL!!! It'll work out, enjoy the journey.
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 8:19 am:

Lee ... I agree on the mechanical hackamore issue. Many people think because there is no bit, that it is very gentle. In the wrong hands, it can be very dangerous and uncomfortable for the horse.

In my experience, barring any physical or dental issues, it is a learning experience much like any other training issue. Help your horse to understand how to deal with it. Most horses that I have worked with that push up and away from the bit will do the same in a bitless, or just halter with reins until they figure it all out.

My goal is to get the horse as soft, supple, and responsive as possible. I would start with just halter with ropes or reins tied to each side. Work on lateral and vertical flexes from the ground on each side, simulating the movement of the reins, until your horse is nice and soft. Next, I would go to a simple snaffle and repeat the process, making sure that you, and your husband are also working on soft hands. Your hands are every bit as important as the bit in his mouth. Once everyone is comfortable with this, go to your saddle work using the same exercises. Work on walk trot transitions and one rein stops .. and lots of lateral and vertical flexes at the halt.

Finally, measure your reins in your hand carefully so that when your horses head is in the proper position, there is adequate slack with no pressure on the bit. First at a walk, then at trot, try to hold your hands very steady (I rest them on my thigh, or hook a thumb in my pocket). The idea is that as long as the horse's head is in the proper position, there is no pressure and everything is nice and comfy. When he pushes head up, he will initiate the pressure. It is very important that you remain consistent and don't pull, let him figure out that when he DrOps his head back down, the pressure is gone. If you respond by pulling more, or moving your hands around, when he puts his head back down, it is likely that there will still be some pressure resulting from your movement. He will get mixed signals. I like to let the horse figure out that he is causing the pressure, and that he can eliminate the pressure on his own by doing the right thing.

The key is to be consistent, and reward the correct response. Be patient and be fair. In my experience, most horses will figure this out fairly quickly. I keep my horses in a snaffle until the understand neck reining and leg aids consistently before I transition to a western curb or reining bit.

Good luck and keep us posted.

DT
Member:
leilani

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 4:51 pm:

Hi Lee,

Here is the address of the BB I bought. https://www.bitlessbridle.com/
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