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  Discussion on Picture of how to teach a foal to lead?
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Member:
Imogen

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 5:53 am:

Hi Dr O

You give a good description of how you teach foals to lead in the article but when I tried this with my last foal 2 years ago she would not tolerate the butt rope part at all (although she did learn to lead very well).

I am wondering if I was doing it wrong. Do you (or does anyone else) have a picture of how to do this so I can check? Non-urgent as next foal not due til April...

Imogen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 7:12 am:

No I don't have a picture Imogen and no foals to take pictures of right now. What did she do when you put the butt rope around the rear of the horse? Without it, I am uncertain how I would quickly and accurately relay my desires for the foal to move forward who is not yet broke to lead: you end up with a foal pulling as hard as he can backward when you try to go forward.

I suspect there are a dozen different ways to arrange the lead and butt rope: we normally use a single long thick cotton lead but I have seen it done with a lead and rope. The lead running from the foal's halter is held in the right hand. Then the lead runs back over the back of the foal and around the butt of the foal and back up to the handler. Sometimes I will hold this free end in the right hand (I will have 2 ropes in a single hand), sometimes in the other hand. When you go forward you face forward, begin walking slowly, and put a little tension on the halter and when the foal pulls back (as they always do when first attempted to lead) the butt rope is used to put pressure against the butt: this creates a natural desire in the foal to move forward.

It does not usually take more than 3 or 4 trips back and forth from the barn to the pasture before the foal is leading well.
DrO
Member:
Cowgrl

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 4:49 pm:

Hi Imogen,
I tried the butt rope on my yearling mustang and she would have nothing to do with it. Granted, this girl was just a week or two out of the wild but was cooperative with everything else. When I tried the butt rope she swerved all over and pushed back if I put pressure on the rope to bring her forward.

What I ended up doing, which worked very well, was simply looped the lead over her neck and held that in my right hand and then held the lead where it's attached to the halter in my left. I'd ask for a walk and apply slight pressure to the rope over her neck and she'd walk forward. I had the rope about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up towards the ears and only used very light pressure. After 3-4 days of this she was leading like a champ.
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 7:04 am:

She just didn't like the sensation of the rope behind her and would kick/buck to get rid of it. My solution similar to Holly's was to use my arm around her buttocks (above kicking range)to indicate "start forward movement" which was great when she was small but not so great when she got bigger and didn't want to go somewhere.

I understand the theory, I just figure somehow I was doing something wrong as this was generally a very amenable, calm and intelligent creature, so if anyone gets any early foals and can take a picture of how they do it, I would really appreciate it.

All the best

Imogen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 4:20 pm:

Since she didn't kick at your arm pressure, perhaps you were letting the rope DrOp to far down the back leg?
DrO
Member:
Kckohles

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 10:49 pm:

Imogen,

The main thing a horse needs to learn to do in it's life is yield to pressure on it's head. The best way I have ever seen to teach foals to lead is one step at a time. You put a "feel" on the rope and hold on to it until the foal's feet move or try to move forward and the moment they do release the pressure. The foal needs to be able to find out where the comfort is, where does the pressure release. So think only about leading the foal one step. Horses and foals learn with release, so if you pull on the foal they don't move their feet and you stop pulling you teach them to resist the pressure. You don't want to pull the foal along you want to think about setting it up and waiting, so put enough pressure on the rope for the foal to seek a change but then just wait for the foal to figure it out. First they might throw their head move to the side and all of this is good it is all a "try". You just wait until that "try" is in the forward direction then you release. You will be surprised at how quick you can teach a foal to lead but you need to give them the time for figure it out the first few steps. If you get in a deadlock or what seems like a pulling contest just keep the forward pressure on the rope and walk side to side to break the foals feet loose from the ground but don't let go of the pressure. Remember that horses learn with release so whatever is going on the moment you stop requesting something, is what they learned. Might not have been what you had in mind but it is what you taught them.

KIM

PS. I like that you didn't force the butt rope. But if that is the way you want to go let the foal work it out, expose them to the feel on their hind end and let them kick at it a little bit and learn that they can handle some pressure back there. Same thing that if the foal kicks at the rope and you release the pressure you teach them that kicking at that pressure is what you wanted. Not what you had in mind but it is what you said.
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 8:40 am:

Thanks for this post, Kim, which I didn't see until today.

This year's foal is fine with the butt rope but does not like to move forward when you exert gentle pressure on the halter. We are going to a show Sunday so I'm going to try your method the next two days so I don't have to try and use the butt rope in the ring...

(for regular Horseadvice readers, yes this is the foal with the lax tendons pictured recently, I'm not planning to win any prizes, but I do think that showing foals young is very good for their education as they travel, see different things etc but at an age where they are fairly controllable).
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:49 pm:

Ok, guys, any advice...

We definitely have a problem. Foal leads fine with a butt rope. Take the butt rope off, and perhaps because this foal has never had a particularly strong following reflex (kept in a stable for first 6 days), she likes to do what she wants and if you pull on the halter she backs up.

I tried taking the butt rope off for the first couple of circles of the ring at the show and she backed up into the centre of the ring nearly falling over twice. After that I left it on and apart from a few bucks and tripping me up at one point by standing on my foot, she was very well-behaved - she loaded into the trailer both directions well (but with the buttrope or arms behind her) and generally acquitted herself well at her first show aged 6 weeks.

How to I convince her now to go forward? She is quite amenable to steering and circles, it is just forward pulls on the headcollar that she resists. I notice a lot of the West Cork showing types stand well behind the mare and foal as they are walking around, almost as though they were long-reining or driving the foal. I think this would only work for a short while with this little madam as something would take her interest and she'd be off to investigate since she is not "stuck" to the mare's behind like the others.

Thanks for any advice

Imogen
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 4:03 pm:

Is there a reason the foal must switch from butt rope to just the lead line? At 6 wks. she's really quite young.

Are you putting any forward pressure on the lead line while you are using the butt rope? I usually start out doing that and gradually put less butt pressure. I like Kim's advice. Taking it slow and lots of praise when steps are in the right direction, but no real force.

I'm impressed she basically behaved good for you and was good in and out of the trailer. It's hard for little ones to be away from home the first few times.
Member:
Kckohles

Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:27 pm:

Imogen,

Think about setting it up and waiting. If she is going backwards when you pressure on the halter to go forward, sounds like too much pressure. Remember that she can feel a fly land any where on her body. She can feel the pressure on the rope almost immediately she just doesn't know what it means yet. Give her the time to figure it out, it doesn't take much, just a little pressure. If you have too much pressure you won't see her work at getting the release she will only being trying to escape. Which the backing up is an escape behavior, she doesn't understand yet.
Set it up and wait, and do so little it will seem like no pressure at all.

KIM
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 6:37 am:

The butt rope is used to provide the stimulus to move forward (and prevent the backing up) but once moving forward the pressure from the rope should be lessened to a minimum and maybe even gradually DrOpped. Practicing in situations where she knows where she is going will make the lesson easier.
DrO
New Member:
Dqfarm

Posted on Friday, Dec 9, 2005 - 5:36 pm:

I am hoping for some help in leading a foal. My foal is now 7 months old and did very well with butt rope training. He is a large foal and it wasn't too long before the rope was too short so he graduated to regular leading fairly quickly. Most of the time he will walk, stop and back just fine. However, every once in a while he will stop and I am not sure of the correct way to get him moving forward again. He doesn't get nasty - he just won't move. I have tried moving him side to side and taking a few steps back - which he does willingly - just not forward. I also tried tapping his legs gently with a dressage whip while standing at his shoulder... no change. He started this about 3-4 weeks ago. He does it when he is to walk into his stall very consistently. Anyone have suggestions on how I get him moving forward again?

A second question is in regard to stall rest of this same foal and trying to keep him so he can be hand walked without getting out of control. If he does pop off the ground and get difficult, how do I best deal with that? He is scheduled for check ligament surgery to correct a grade 3 club foot and will be on stall rest for 30 days with hand walking.

I appreciate any advice. The professional I was working with had a serious accident and is not able to help me.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Dec 9, 2005 - 7:45 pm:

Since he does it going into the stall, is his stall darker than outside? I assume so. Maybe he needs a moment for his eyes to adjust to the darkness, or he is nervous about going into a darker area. If you have lights, I'd have them all on when you go to lead him in.

If his stopping doesn't appear to be connected to the darkness, I'd try turning him in a few circles then going forward with him. Another way is to have him follow an older horse into the barn, then as soon as he gets in his stall, have a "goodie" to give him (some grain) After a bit he'll connect going into the stall with getting the "goodie" and then will go in without following the other horse.

If it's maybe the isolation of the stall or the being shut in he doesn't like, you could try leading him into the stall, praising and petting him, then going right back out of the stall. Do this several times when you aren't ready for him to be in for good, so you can leave him back outside. Then, sometimes leave him in, and sometimes leave him back out for awhile.

To get him to go forward, you can flick him with a rope on the top of his back behind the withers, or on top of his rump (not behind it) and he'll probably go forward to get away from the annoying flicking. As soon as he does, praise him and then stop him, and do it again so he goes forward a few feet again. I'd start doing this for a few days away from the barn, in a pen or field, then do it close to the barn door, then into the barn door. Take it in little steps.
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Saturday, Dec 10, 2005 - 4:24 am:

Hi Beth

I fixed the problem with the foal above by the simple expedient of getting another person behind it with a stick and quite calmly every time the foal stopped when being led forward we kept whacking her gently until she moved. It took about 2 sessions before she twigged. She now behaves very well. I could not get the method of gentle pressure released on movement advised by Kim above to work it just reinforced the incorrect behaviour. I would not use the butt rope method again when teaching a foal to lead as I think they become dependant on it.

If I thought this foal was going to stop because I was asking it to do something it wasn't going to like I'd still also use a long rope like a lunge rope to provide comforting butt rope support for the youngster, however, since that is what it is used to. Fortunately it's a greedy little begger so food also works well...

Sounds to me like your foal wants to be out and does not wish to go into the stall. I figure you are going to have fun after the surgery. I would be tempted to just keep it on stall rest for as long as you can and not be taking it outside.

All the best

Imogen
Member:
Alden

Posted on Saturday, Dec 10, 2005 - 3:08 pm:

Beth,

When your foal won't go twirl the end of your lead line with your left hand and turn to the left 90 degrees or so. What you want is the end of the lead rope to thump him in the belly and cause his rear end to move to the right.

Two things happen. First, it isn't easy for a horse to pull at an angle. I teach mine to lead by alternating short straight lines and small circles. They almost have to follow or fall on their nose. Second, when he locks up and won't go the problem is in the rear end. Get the rear end moving and he'll follow a lot easier.

This also teaches him to move the rear away from you when you turn left. He's less likely to cut the corner and run you over if his butt is going away from you. And don't forget he has to travel further than you when you turn left, slow up at first and let him figure out the turn.

Normally when a colt has one of those jack rabbit moments I let them out and circle them. I'm not sure just how to handle those moments if yours isn't allowed to go faster than a walk. I suppose you can walk him in circles and it may help settle down.

Good day,
Alden
New Member:
Dqfarm

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 13, 2005 - 9:24 pm:

Thank you all so much for your thoughts and techniques. I believe food is the trick for this guy. I am bribing him for the moment and it is working. If I can get him to realize there are carrot pieces in the stall I might have the winning combination - time will tell. He is quite unique. He doesn't seem to be bothered by taps or ropes or anything on his body - he just sort of ignores them unless you really smack him a bit.
He is already become a handful post surgery. He is tossing, rearing and kicking out after about 12 days of stall rest (not that I blame him to be honest) He had the surgery on the surgery on Dec 1st. (My prior email was written but not submitted so the timing is a bit off...). It is to the point that I spend the 10 minute walk just trying to not get kicked - just turning in circles etc - another 2 weeks is not going to be fun.
Tip for the future - young horses do not do well on stall rest.
The angles on his foot look amazingly better. I am really impressed with the correction.

Thanks again for your advice -

Beth
Member:
Alden

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 13, 2005 - 10:56 pm:

Beth,

Do you have before and after pictures you could post?

Good day,
Alden
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 14, 2005 - 9:16 am:

Be careful with the "bribes" Beth. While positive reinforcement can be a powerful tool to shape horse behavior most folks use it incorrectly as a bribe. For more on the proper use of rewards see Training Horses » Training Your Horse's Mind » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses.
DrO
New Member:
Dqfarm

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 14, 2005 - 12:14 pm:

Alden,
I will be happy to post pictures... he is due for his support plate to be removed in 10 days and have his first trim with his new angles. I have pre-surgery pictures as we have been monitoring this problem for 4 months - every 3 weeks or so taking new pictures to note progress and hoping to avoid surgery.

Thanks Dr. O for the input. I read the article you suggested and found it quite helpful. Perhaps my word of bribe was not 100% accurate. I am not using the carrot to get him to move forward, I am giving him a carrot piece when he walks into the stall and then putting the carrot pieces in his feed bucket - my hope was that he will realize the stall isn't a bad place. I make a positive fuss when he moves toward the stall - no matter how slight. Today he walked into the stall with only a slight pause at the doorway - so I think we are making progress.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts - I will post pictures of his feet as soon as I have before and after pictures.

Beth
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 14, 2005 - 11:02 pm:

Hi all, I agree with Dr O about the bribes. But, if its working now that might be the best solution for the moment. Ultimately you will need to address his problem of not yielding to pressure because it WILL come back in another situation. If he only has another two weeks, keep up what works for now. Once he is healed you can address his more fundamental problem. There are many great natural horsemanship techniques that are perfect for this issue, but layups are not the time for training.
Member:
Dqfarm

Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2006 - 7:00 pm:

Hi Everyone...
I thought I would give you all a follow up. My colt is doing very well. Part of his issue I think was inconsistent handling. While he was rehabilitating after surgery - he was handled by one individual who was firm and strict - he is now a champ on the lead line.
I also promised to send pictures of his club foot before and after the check ligament surgery. As you can see, the change is amazing. You can also see how tall he is and why he might have had some growth issues... we have his menu figured out now.. This was my first foal. A definite learning experience. The next one I will know better about baby getting into Moms food too soon.

Thanks.

before

After

Alex - 9 months
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 28, 2006 - 8:43 am:

Much better Beth. Concerning his menu, do they also have him on a restricted diet?
DrO
New Member:
Shiloh

Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 6:12 pm:

I wonder if anyone can advise me with a situation I find myself in with my foal. He is 9 months old now and very big and strong for his age. I have a paddock where I am allowed to let my foal, its mother and another mare of mine run free. I have to put my horses out alone and need some advice of how to do this best. The paddock is just a short 2 minute walk. Presently I put my 5 yr old mare out first so she can have a blast by herself as she is very frisky. Then comes the problem with the foal and mother. I can't lead them both together as they are both too strong and the foal is getting rough to handle. If I lead the mother and let the foal follow he runs off and there's a busy road nearby. I have tried putting the foal in first but then the mother freeks out and is too strong to hold back. Today I put the mother in first then went with the foal he was fine at first then threw his head and hit me full in the face almost knocking me out (I have a big black eye). Is there a better way of doing this please?
Member:
Dres

Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 6:33 pm:

Michael, I am thinking you might want to move this discussion to another one of your own.. That being said.. I have several brood mares that all lead differently.. as in some are very halter broke another is not.. The very halter broke mare I can lead the foal and her together without any problems, focusing on the colt.. the mare that tugs / pulls I can't lead with a foal,becus I have to focus on both, to dangerous.. So I have had to work on halter breaking my mares better.. That is the key when you are doing this kind of stuff by yourself... If you had someone to help you , you would not be asking this question I am sure..
So my answer is get your mare more halter broke, more responsive/respectful to you.. then you can take them together not a problem...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
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