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  Discussion on Mare kicks pasture mates
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Member:
Roberts

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 11:49 am:

I bought a 15 year old Arab mare a month ago or so, let her stay in the roundpen, adjacent to the approximately 5-6 acre pasture of varied terrain where the others are, for a week, then she came into standing heat and I thought it would be a good time to put her in with my 2 Arab geldings (16 years) and small paint mare(17 years), and that worked out fine. (These three have worked out their dynamics over several years, but none of them kicked as this new mare now does.) A few weeks later she is pinning her ears flat at feeding time and kicking freely. I make sure to scatter widely more piles of hay than there are horses. I believe this is not new behavior for this mare, it's her biggest fault.
I've searched the listings and can't find anything that directly addresses this problem of severe kicking of pasture mates. Is there anything I can do to try to prevent injury here? In the past, when I have put any kind of blanket or sheet on the dominant gelding, he has turned into number two, because he won't kick or threaten to kick with the blanket hanging around his hind legs. I'm going to try this, but doubtful it will work with the mare. Any and all ideas welcomed!
Sharlene
Member:
Cacherm

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 12:47 pm:

I have 2 words for you --Moody Mare It's an herbal supplement available from United Vet Equine. I has done wonders for my mare's attitude and her kicking. She was kicking through the fence at the other horses especially when she was in heat and injured her back leg. It took a couple of weeks to start working but she is a much more tolerable horse and has stopped her kicking! I feed it year round to her. Her old owner's saw her at a show and couldn't believe the difference in her. It's worth a try?? Good Luck!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 5:18 pm:

Sharlene, you have found the solution: move the feed piles far enough apart and make them bit enough to keep everyone content.

Cara, having seen dozens of such products tried in hundreds of horse I am skeptical. It is normal for horses over time to adjust there attitudes to one that is not self destructive without medical or herbal intervention, are you sure this is just not time and the mare developing good sense? Can you list the ingredients of this product as I have not seen this one yet.
DrO
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 11:20 pm:

Hi there,

The blanket system is very good, it has also worked with my horses many a time.

Really and truly I have always found that in the beginning there is always ruffling of the feathers, while they establish their status in the herd. You are lucky to have such a large pasture!

When I introduce Scarlet to the heard last year it was the same, she had been kicked out of every yard, one for being a tremendous flussy, flirt, and for being a good kicker. The rest of my herd were pretty peaceful so it was a shock to them to see this thing with legs flying up in the air. Until one day they had enough and gave her a taste of her own medicine. She was lame for a while but they get on now.

Do not loose hope, they will sort themselves out as long as there is enough food and water to go round for all of them!

All the best,
Liliana

Member:
Lisamg

Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 8:07 pm:

Cara;

I too have a very "moody mare". So I read your post with interest. I'm fairly certain the bad behaviour is heat cycle related as she is absolutley serene when in foal, and a #$tch when not. I just ordered some of the "Moody Mare" supplement, hey it can't hurt, and if it works will be well worth it. This mare has stopped beating the other horses for the most part, but is quick to anger and kick (and is a very dominat horse which is a bad thing for her victims). Lately she's been kicking the walls of the run-in shed .... which is something she's done at previous farms.... and raking her teeth on the wood in an aggitated manner when she sees us in the barn (i.e. thinks it's feeding time). Part of it is surely winter boredom, no grass to eat, nothing really to do but wait for her next meal. The problem is my "boss gelding" is starting to mimic her bad behaviours too. (Monkey see, monkey do).
I'll let you know how things go ..... I'm sure hoping it works. Can't hurt to try. And for those of you that think herbal stuff is mumbo jumbo ..... try to think a little open mindedly. Remember the wonder drug, Aspirin came from the bark of a willow tree. (isn't that herbal??)

Lisa
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 4:06 pm:

Many of our drugs have origins from plant and animal derived chemicals, and aspirin has thousands of experiments into its dosages, efficacy, and side effects. The fact that these products are plant derived is not the problem, the problem is I see clients buy them and quit using them because they did not work. Just trying to save you a buck, but on the other hand some folks feel good just trying.
DrO
Member:
Cacherm

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 4:43 pm:

DrO--I was skeptical too until I tried it on my own horse. I actually am a Pharmacist and typically don't recommend herbal medications even to my customer's due to the fact that their have never been trials and so forth on safety and efficacy and some of them can be very dangerous. So many people(and friends) I knew tried it and seemed to like it and were in a very similar situation I was. Had I never had gotten an opinion or heard any results, I agree, I would have saved my money and not bought it. Plus, it's really not that expensive. But when you get desperate you will try anything. I have never, ever in the past 7 years I have owned my horses fed a supplement until I got her. Granted she still has her moments but she's not as crabby all the time and is more tolerable especially when she is performing. We moved stable's also and she is the boss hands down and her kicking really got bad at this new place. She kicked a hole through the back of her stall wall and that was really the last straw for me because I was more concerned about her safety than anything. I did try a cheaper "mare" product and it didn't work at all. These are the ingredients I obtained off of the website: Alfalfa, Basil, Chamomile, Dandelion, Golden Rod, Marigold, Rosemary and Valerian Root. It's leafy in nature, not powdery. It was just a suggestion....

Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 5:41 pm:

Hello
I have not ever tried the calming herbs but I do have good friends who have. My roper friend and another who is a barrel racer and roper have tried products like this and now they swear by them. The rope mare has been sedated for roping for years ( many are with ace) now he gives her a product similar to Moody Mare and she is quite sensible. The other friend gives Smooth Run Plus with calming additives (valerian, chamomille, ginger root) and now she says the things that would put him over the edge don't phase him. Interesting! I might try it on my one gelding as a test.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 6:15 pm:

Hello Cara,
As a druggist you know many treatments which patients and doctors thought effective, when looked at through the careful eyes of science, had no healing properties at all. If some of the herbs are shown to be effective and safe at turning terrible horses into purring kittens I will report it here first. My job is to referee these discussions with what I know about the science of horses and my personal experiences with horses as a equine veterinarian, breeder, and trainer.

I do know these activities are very common for new horses, especially mares, and that most settle down and become good citizens without the help of drugs. Had their owners began such treatments before they naturally settled down they might have thought the herbs were the reason. These horses are dangerous, to themselves and others, so I understand the desire to find a rapid fix. My biggest concern is that someone will begin such treatments, believe everthing all right and put together horses that need a little more time to settle down or a more gradual introduction.
DrO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 - 11:29 am:

I was reviewing this discussion for the newsletter and realize I have left out the most important step one should take with a horse that kicks: remove their hind shoes.
DrO
New Member:
Longride

Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 - 6:19 pm:

Rob - the comment about the one mare biting the walls makes me wonder. Could the cause be physical discomfort. Hormone imbalance seem an easy answer but my experience has been that some horses seem to have no tolerance for discomfort and take it out on their herd mates. Dominant mares are in a particularly strong position to do this. Our resident witch at the moment has displayed her temper when dealing with everything from sore back to abcesses. Haven't stomach ulcers been linked to aggressive behavior ? BTW, a blanket does not stop my old mare from kicking at all. Peppana has mellowed a lot at 26 and no longer has the Witch title, but she is still quick to keep her space clear.

Barbara Long
Member:
Lisamg

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 6:11 pm:

Barbara;

I own the mare that rakes her teeth on the wood. No, it is not from pain, as she only does it when she sees us in the barn feeding. If she did it all the time, we would have no wood left in the run-in. Also, she is not like this when she's in foal.

And, Dr. O, this mare is not new to us. We have had her on our farm since last winter. She should be well settled by now. So I'm quite sure that any changes we see would not have happened anyway.

We started the Moody Mare about 3 weeks ago. It sure smells nice, like herbal tea, and she seems to like the taste. I have not heard any kicking in the run-in and not seen her raking her teeth lately. I'm not saying she's "cured", only that she seems more tollerant. Usually someone (one of the horses that is) would have some kind of boo boo from her, but we don't have any fresh ones on anyone right now. I'm optimistic, and like the others have stated about their horses, she's self destructive with her kicking, it was worth a try. She's already kicked holes in the run-in paneling. She's lucky she didn't go through the steel sheeting.

My plan is to continue feeding the entire 3 month supply we have and then decide if I think it's done any good.

Just my opinion.

Lisa
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2005 - 7:53 am:

Barbara! How did I miss the Long when you first posted? Welcome old friend. I don't know how long it has been that we have talked. For other members Barbara was certainly one of my earliest clients and she put up with a bumbling new vet for well over a decade until she moved so far away I was unable to see her. She also trained and competed a old race horse stallion of mine (just posted a picture of him elsewhere on the site) successfully at the lower levels of dressage. From that little bit of work we still get breedings from people who remember seeing a big flashy red horse with incredible presence.

While hormonal imbalances (ovarian tumors) are well established causes of aggression I think pain is more iffy. Will a crabby horse get crabbier while painful? It makes sense to me but then again I know lots of sweet chronically lame horses.

Thanks for the update Lisa and continue to let us know what happens. But you should not discount changes simply because a year has passed. I have several horses myself that have taken well over a year to get well established in the herd. I have one particularly high strung rescue Paso who has been here 5 years and every year becomes a bit more calm. He just happens to be the best ride my wife has ever seen so we put up with his behavior.
DrO
Member:
Lisamg

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 5:38 pm:

Dr. O;

Thanks for being open minded. I saw the "witch" mare in the 10x12 section of the run-in WITH my head gelding yesterday. 10x12 is a small space for two very dominant horses to be! They were being very snuggly and preforming mutual grooming. About a couple of weeks ago she might just have killed him for being so bold as to even approach the run-in she was in. I must admit, I am getting a bit more optimistic.

What's your thoughts about this suppliment when it comes time to breed her this spring? One of the other "mare" suppliments states not to use in pregnant mares. This one does not, but I'm planning on stopping the suppliment about a month before she gets bred. She will not need it once she's in foal.

Lisa
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 6:34 am:

Having no experience with the product I really don't have one Lisa.
DrO
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