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Discussion on Choosing a foal
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Member:
Rob10549
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2005 - 10:42 am:
Can anyone advise on the most important issues involved in choosing a young horse? Conformationally? Personality wise? Health? And what is the best way to raise a baby? Stall? Pasture? Thanks, Robin
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2005 - 1:02 pm:
Hi Robin
Choosing a young horse is always a bit risky as there are so many factors that you need to take into account. Foals can change dramatically over time and what you see now isn't always what you will end up with.
Obviously good conformation, temperament and health are extremely important factors in selecting a youngster but there are many other things to also consider such as:
Why do you want a young horse? There's no denying they are cute and fun to watch but they need knowledgeable handling and training and cost basically the same as a mature horse to keep - for years!
What do you plan to do with the horse at maturity? You can't fit a square peg in a round hole and the same goes for horses. Clydesdales don't win races and Thoroughbreds don't pull ploughs. Working with a horse that isn't suited to the job at hand is an exercise in frustration for the person and plain unfair to the horse.
Do you plan on breeding it later? Just because an animal has testicles or a uterus does not mean it is a good candidate for reproduction. Being a small breeder of quality sporthorses it infuriates me to see so many horses on the market with conformation or temperament problems that are a direct result of irresponsible or uneducated breeding. It's unfair to the animal and to the future buyer. It does nothing for the horse industry except to perpetuate inferiority. If you plan to breed you need to do your homework and choose the best mare you can find with well researched bloodlines, good conformation and temperament. Top quality mares are key to good breeding.
Do you have the proper facility and knowledge to raise it? Young horses need turnout (preferably grass) and lots of it, along with correct feeding, trimming, healthcare, etc. If you don't have your own place, the average boarding barns (at least in my experience) tend not to offer the kind of turnout adequate for a developing youngster. Like kids, they tend to get whatever bug is going around and can go downhill surprisingly quickly.
Do you have patience? It takes a long time before you can ride a young horse. If you don't have access to another riding horse while this is going on, sometimes the urge to rush things can get the better of you.
Are you willing to risk it? Hopefully this won't be a factor and accidents can happen at any age but young horses are especially prone due to their inquisitive nature and general naivety.
There are plenty of other considerations but these are the key ones I can think of off the top of my head. I don't mean to sound negative but I find that if you look at the worst case scenario first and still want to go ahead, you're more prepared.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2005 - 8:41 pm:
Sue, you must be hiding in the corners of my barn! I have repeated your advice so many times I must sound like a broken tape recording!
Robin, I have no indication of your experience. I can only assume from your questions that you don't have a lot of experience, at least with young horses.
I LOVE foals and young horses, after all, I've bred them for years. There is nothing so beautiful, imo. However, all that Sue said is true, and more. Many new, inexperienced owners treat the young horse like a big puppy. While lots of love and attention are important, it's also important that the young horse receive proper training in "being a horse" and in giving people "their space." Too many young horses aren't given the right discipline and instruction and grow up to be spoiled brats who are difficult and sometimes dangerous to work with.
A lot of people sell foals and yearlings for a lot less money than the same horse would cost as a two or three year old. Yes, it's an opportunity for a buyer to get excellent blood lines at a lesser price. But, you know why they're sold for a lesser price? It's not just because time and money haven't been spent on training yet; in large part it's because of the "risk factors" that Sue talks about.
I know Sue and I both sound like like a couple of "wet rags" (or would that be "nags?" I don't think either of us are saying "dont" just know what you're getting into. And, if you're not an expericence horse person, you would be better off getting an older, trained horse. At lease imo.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 6:17 pm:
I don't mind being called a nag, Sara, just not an old nag...
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2005 - 12:39 am:
Sue... At my age, though, I'm afraid I'd have to be an old nag!
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2005 - 10:46 am:
Robin,
I'll take a little different approach than the “wet rags” (just kidding) , even though I've given the same advice before. I know from 20 plus years of teaching people complicated electronics tasks in the military there are different types of learners. Some take the slow and build up to it approach type and others (like me) are more the baptism by fire type. If you know yourself, and you are willing to find (or already know a good horseman/horseperson), then it is very possible to start with a young horse and both of you be happy. The learning curve is very steep with young ones, but with the right type of person that can equate to faster learning.
When it comes to what you'll get with a foal six or seven years down the road. Who knows? I suppose there are people with a practiced eye that can come close sometimes, but my experience is the end produce doesn't much resemble the beginning. I have five right now and three look nothing like the youngsters they were. Heck, just in the color department one was born sorrel and is almost completely white now at ten. Thats why people follow bloodlines and use what has been produced in the past as a guide.
My wife and I found a breeder that had a good track record of producing good horses, then we just followed our gut feelings. Not very scientific but it has worked pretty well so far. Now, obviously I wouldn't pick a foal that has serious conformation issues. No use starting with problems unless you're absolutely sure that they can be managed, and won't affect the performance you have in mind for the horse to be.
If you pick a foal post pictures, I like the youngsters. In fact I think we'll be breeding our MFT mare for a mule this year.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2005 - 1:31 pm:
Hi all,
As some of you may know here in sunny Cozumel things are, shall we say different in peoples approach to animals.
Only this morning I found tied up to a tree a foal maybe a 6 to8 weeks old which was given to a 5yo and 7 yo boys to play with and raise themselves.
Any ideas how we could approach the people, should we try to help, Gosh I am sorry did not mean to crash in this thread, but a few heads are definitely better that one.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2005 - 1:52 pm:
Would the boys perhaps sell the foal to you? Or, let you keep it at your place and they could "own" it, come vist, help care for it, and perhaps learn an important lesson in the mean time?
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Member:
Rob10549
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2005 - 7:38 pm:
Wow, I have not been on in awhile and forgot that I even asked the question! Thank u everyone for writing back to me. No nags, I appreciate the advice. I am planning on getting a two or three year old horse, have an experienced trainer to help me and have a pasture with run in shed. My question really was more about conformation....I bought my current horse with no knowledge and the woman who sold him to me was an unscupulous person who only cared to make a buck. I love my horse more than ANYTHING but looking back, had I known now what I didn't know then, I probably would not have bought him b/c of his conformational flaws. He has REALLY long pasterns with LOTS of action and currently he's layed up with a rear suspensory ligament injury. Everyone that ever sees his legs and his little hooves always comments on them and no his prognosis is guarded. So, if I decide to buy a second horse I just wanted to know what I need to be looking for in terms of conformation. Surely a young horse does not change that dramatically as it grows, does it? I want to have the knowledge behind me so I can make a solid decision. So far in the 4 years I have owned my horse I have seen horses worth $200,000 and those worth $3000, all suffer from the same injuries and illnesses making it seem like a real crap shoot. You can pick a horse with PERFECT conformation and that does not guarantee you that nothing will go wrong down the road. So why then do you need a trainer to help you buy a horse in the first place? I am aggravated that there is licensing or certifying body in this business. It seems anyone can hang a shingle outside their door and declare themselves an expert! So, I am writing to the horse owner to find out your opinions on what to look for when buying a horse. I would never jump into anything and have been researching, reading books, asking questions. Owning a horse is a HUGE responsiblity and I take it very seriously. Having learned the hard way, where you think you know who you can trust, only to find out they only wanted to make a dollar is really distressing. So, if you can give me an idea of what I do and don't want when I look for a horse I would appreciate it. I want to learn all I can. Thank you for the info I am taking notes. Robin
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 12:40 am:
Hi Robin, sounds like you've learned a lot already; buying the horse is the "cheap" part!
Before you buy a horse of any age, you need to ask yourself what you want to do with the horse, because what makes a good horse depends a lot on your answer. True, some conformational points are important regardless, but what might be desirable for a reining horse, isn't what makes a good endurance horse; and a good show horse isn't necessarily a good trail horse,etc. So...what are your plans for the horse? Future National Halter Champion? Endurance high miler? Brood mare? Family horse?
I don't know what breed your horse is or what you use it for, but long pasterns and lots of action are good things in some circles! Not sure about the small feet, however. It all depends on the rest of the horse.
You are right about too many people looking to line their pockets and not looking out for your best interests; however, there are a lot of really good people in the horse business, regardless of breed you are interested in, and these people just want to share their knowledge and get others interested in what they love. I know a lot of breeders and trainers who will spend a lot of time with people they know they aren't going to sell a horse to anytime soon. I'm sorry if this isn't the type of person you have dealt with so far. The big majority of people in this business are honest and hard working, and are in it for the love of the horse, not the money.
You are smart to educate yourself and learn as much as you can. However, as you said, there are no guarantees. The most perfect, beautiful, well bred horse is subject to colic and injury just like the cheapest auction horse. However, knowledge and good care can do a lot to lessen it's chances of having such problems.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 6:20 am:
Hi, Robin,
I think this will answer most of your questions:
https://www.americantrakehner.com/SportHorse%20Conformation/SHCpart1.htm
It applies to all horses, not just Trakehners.
Remember, pedigree only matters in a breeding plan. If all you want is a horse to hack or compete with, what you see is what you get. Don't get talked into anyhting beyond what you can see. An experienced person can point things out for you to see, but don't buy unless you can really see the difference.
I say this because I believe that if you're experienced enough to put a magnificent horse's conformational advantages to good use, you'll be experienced enough to see them.
If you don't see the conformational advantages, most often you're not experienced enough to put them to use, so why buy them ?
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 1:17 pm:
Sorry to hear about the unfortunate experience with the first person you bought from, Robin. It's sad when these unscrupulous people taint the industry.
Excellent link, Christos. Many years ago (I'm talking in the 80s), I went to an awesome conformation lecture entitled "Form to Function" given by Dr Marvin Beeman (I believe he was with the University of Colorado at the time). Try searching for conformation by him - he is a very well respected source. I would also recommend any text or video on conformation by Deb Bennett. Anything by these two conformation gurus is very worthwhile reading/watching in order to help you educate your eye. During Dr Beeman's lecture, he kept referring back to the great Secretariat as the yardstick to use. So find a photo of him and study it!
One area that I have noticed that often gets overlooked is the feet. Personally I look at them first as without good feet, you won't be going too far.
Also don't assume that just because someone is a trainer, they know what good conformation is. I've met quite a few trainers who haven't got a clue and get blinded by extravagant movers that are incorrectly put together and either won't stay sound or will have great difficulty staying sound.
I'm really glad to hear that you've chosen to look for a two or three year old as by three, most times what you see is what you will get with the exception of further filling out and muscle development of the body. I think that's a really wise choice and you'll have something that will be ready to start light work.
Good luck with your search this time around. Looking at new horses is exciting and fun.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 3:13 pm:
Dr. O. Re: feet and Legs: years ago an equine studies teacher gave me this advice on coformation. Regardless of breed, "always choose a horse you could get out of town on fast and travel far." Godd advice.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 4:09 pm:
Secretariat may be a tricky model, Sue.
He had a huge heart, which is such an advantage in racehorses that we can't really know, I believe, whether he was performing so well because of his conformation or despite it.
(Just a thought, I do not mean to doubt Dr Beeman)
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Member:
Ribbons
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 4:50 pm:
Robin,
Correct me please if I am wrong, but you seem really most frustrated by your previous "trainer."
In looking for a new horse, I would find someone who has lots of experience and has absolutely no financial interest in the transaction. I have paid my "trainer" a flat fee for going to look at a horse I have found myself. That way no one is motivated by a commission.
I have found my best bet financially is to buy a horse that is presently doing the job I want to do and staying sound doing it. I know it is more money upfront, but having bought a young horse, I have spent way more on training than I would have upfront. And yes, it is all a crap shoot, but what a fun one!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 9:13 pm:
Concerning SECRETARIAT it was not heart alone. Secretariat also had a renowned stride length at the gallop, 25 feet if I remember correctly. Then again I would not take my word for it as I am prejudiced. My stallion is one of the few remaining standing sons of SECRETATIAT, a fine fellow named ROMANTICO who is a stakes winner also. Maybe even more impressive is that last year at 25 years of age he settled 14 of 15 mares he bred. Do I sound like the proud Dad?
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 10:28 pm:
Rightfully so! Why don't you post a picture of him?
Out of curiosity, have you ever x-rayd his heart to see it's size? I was just wondering if his heart size was passed on.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 8:18 am:
Just out of curiosity... since we all know that Secretariat was an incredible horse, did he have any major conformational flaws that made his performances all the more amazing? (I'm remembering the story of SeaBiscuit with his poorly built legs).
I have wonderful memories of Secretariat--he was my first introduction to horses via my Dad's love of horse racing. As a child, it was one of my favorite things to do with my Dad--watch the races of the Triple Crown on TV. I vividly remember Secretariat winning (am I dating myself here?!?!)
Yes, DrO--I too would love to see a picture of Secretariat's son. Please post.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 1:08 pm:
Just to clarify things, the reason Dr Beeman used Secretariat was because of his exemplary conformation - wonderful angles and a totally balanced horse. The size of his heart and the length of his stride didn't factor into the picture although we all know that these were huge contributors to his incredible racing performance.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 2:56 pm:
A fine horse in fine hands, DrO. I envy you.
Sara, my trainer was saying that heart size is determined mainly in the X chromosome, so it is usually passed on from father to daughter to grandson and so on.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 3:16 pm:
Actually, if I remember right, there was an article about that in Equus magazine a while back. It went into studies done to see where a horse gets it's ability for speed. Perhaps your trainer read the same article? (but obviously has a better memory than I do)
Dr. O, I would still love to see a picture of your stallion. Secretariat was magnificent; I'm actually old enough to remember him
:>(
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 3:22 pm:
By the way, I did not mean to question Secretariat's conformation.
If this is what you're asking, Fran, no, I can not see and have not read or heard of a single minor flaw in his conformation.
But the overall balance, the extremely sloping shoulder and the extremely tucked under hind end (hence the enormous reach) needs a huge heart and better than average lungs to feed the strides (or so I think).
I have met a couple of horses with a stride in excess of 22ft and relatively flawless conformation that would simply "hang" after the first 500 meters.
They had the power, they had the action, they just didn't have the fuel to do it.
Or, again, so I think.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 3:41 pm:
No, Sara, he was a trainer in the racetrack of Belgrade. A Thoroughbred guru of some sort. Unfortunately, throughout his carreer, he had no access to western press or books.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2005 - 8:23 am:
Thanks, Christos--you've answered my question. While I remember watching Secretariat race, I would have been way to young to understand any discussion on how he was built or why he was so successful. And I haven't read much about him. One of these days (in my spare time) I'd like to read more about this extraordinary horse
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 9:41 am:
This is ROMANTICO at 24 cavorting in his pasture. Though you can't see it he is playing tag with our youngest shepard, Roamer:
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 11:20 am:
Cool photo, Dr O. He's gorgeous and you'd never guess he is 24.
What a wonderful sight to see a stallion galloping in a field like a normal horse. 95% of the stallions around where I live are restricted to either stalls or tiny paddocks and it makes me cringe.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 11:30 am:
What a beautiful boy, Dr. O!
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 11:57 am:
I've a friend with a daughter by Romantico - she is a beauty and a very nice dressage horse. She also has been used successfully as a lower level eventer.
There is a lot to be said for starting with great genes in both parents.
Cheers.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 12:01 pm:
Wow Dr O,
He looks wonderful! You should be VERY proud!
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 12:08 pm:
What a beautiful horse, doesn't look that age to me!
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Member:
Contilli
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 12:42 pm:
Good genetics prove themselves in this photo! Absolutely incredible!
Denise
www.BryantFarm.com
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 1:52 pm:
He's just lovely, Dr.O. It's no wonder you're such a proud papa...great picture--thanks so much for posting so we could all enjoy your beautiful boy.
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 2:26 pm:
DrO Nice horse I've been looking at boys for a while I'd like to know more about your boy if you don't mind me asking.
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2005 - 7:46 am:
What a star! Congratulations.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2005 - 12:38 pm:
Congratulations to all the family, DrO.
You should be proud of having such a special horse and he should be proud of having such special people.
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Member:
Rob10549
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2005 - 3:36 pm:
Thank U to everyone for sharing thier advice and wisdom with me. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of you. Thank u Dr. O for the wonderful website, which I have been lucky enough to utilize quite frequently! And Dr. O, your horse is really beautiful! Thank you! Robin
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Member:
Paintluv
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2005 - 5:06 pm:
Dr. O.
ROMANTICO is beautiful. He looks like his Daddy. You are so lucky to have his son. I have fond memories of Secretariat. I was absolutely in love with him when I was 13. My wonderful Dad took me to Lexington to meet Secretariat right after he went to stud. I have pictures with me and Secretariat and his groom outside his barn at Claiborn.
Randi
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