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Discussion on Horse Threatening to Kick in Stall
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Member:
Mickey01
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 1:31 pm:
Last October, I adopted a 7yo STB gelding that used to race. He is supposed to be dead broke, loving, and wonderful to handle. Either they forgot to tell him, or he just doesn't like me! He will pin he ears when passing me, or if I walk passed him in the stall. Because of this, I started getting his food and water in place before I let him in the stall. His feed/water station is in the far left corner and his door is in the near right corner (can't change this setup). Consequently, when he is eating his hind end it pointing toward the door. Lately, when I walk passed his stall, he hikes his leg like he is about to kick at me. I know I need to nip this in the bud, but I'm not sure what to do. The place I adopted him from had him pastured 24/7, so they're not going to be much help. His former adopted owner apparently didn't have these issues. I have two other horses, and he is in the middle in the pecking order. He sees that I am dominant over the alpha mare, so I don't think he is challenging me. BUT, something is going on here. Any idea?
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Member:
Gr82bme
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 1:52 pm:
Mickey
Was this a harness racer? I rescued a 10 yr old gelding a month ago. He also pins his ears & hikes a hind leg while in his stall eating. But never seems aggressive. He will move away from his food if asked. I wonder if they aren't just used to having their feet done while eating-to save time? He is a real sweet horse other wise. He is way to thin & very weary of strangers. I think these horses are not used to alot of one on one attention other than needed to get them ready to race? I don't know but its a theory. Hope this helps even though its not advise?
Good luck
Debby
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 1:58 pm:
My horse did that once, I took his food away. He looked at me like "Hey!" but stood patiently so I gave it back...works for me.
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Member:
Mickey01
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 3:11 pm:
Debby, Yes he is a former harness racer. I suppose that is a possibilty. He will move from his food when I ask him, but because of the ear pinning and leg hiking, I tend to get dominant when I move him, which then causes him to be nervous. I will try to lighten up and see how he responds.
Aileen: I tried taking the food away and he turned very quick with his ears pinned, so I ended up getting my whiffle ball bat and making him get out of his stall and penning him at the end of the barn for a few minutes. That made him nevous too. Like I said, I don't seem to be handling this well.
And before anyone yells at me... I did NOT hit him with the bat. :-)
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Member:
Gr82bme
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 3:23 pm:
Mickey
Maybe my theory is right then. Joey is a very nervous horse too. When he is in his stall he is a nervous wreck. Makes you wonder what all they have been through. I think the pinning of the ears maybe more of a habit then a sign of aggression just keep your eyes open just in case. 
I hope things work out for you both. Also when we went to ride him we had to get a harness bridle & bit to ride him. If we used another bit he would spin in circles. Thought I would let you know in case you didn't get that far. Take care & good luck
Debby
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 3:57 pm:
Debbie has a couple of important points here.
Pinned ears may simply be an expression, expressing slight annoyance or, simply, an unpleasant thought. One should not always treat it as aggression.
Think about this, Mickey: You may simply wear the same smell with some guy that used to harass this horse a couple of years ago.
Cocking a hind leg is not necessarily a threat. I actually believe it is rarely meant as one. Don't take any chances, however.
You can easily test whether he's threatening you or not. Simply walk around his hind end at a safe distance. If he means to threaten you, his hind end will follow your position.
Christos
PS: Congratulations on giving these horses a life. Most people discard them as lost cases.
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Member:
Juliem
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 4:38 pm:
Many years ago I worked at a riding stable with over a hundred horses. At feeding time some of them acted like this. Despite being cared for mosty by inexperienced kids, no one was ever kicked or bitten. It was never dominant horses or alphas that exhibited this behavior. Always horses lower in the "pecking order," or very nervous ones. My theory is that they feel they must posture to protect their feed. My two subordinate geldings also pin their ears at feed time and one even will swish his tail, yet neither has any interest in following up on the "threat." Both are cooperative, attentive and respectful. I got agressive with them at times over this and then decided it's not an issue I'm that concerned about and I really believe it's an inate response to protecting their feed. Remember, these animals would not survive in the wild if they could easily be run off a food source. One of my geldings is very head shy as a result of a previous owner smacking him in the face for this behavior. It didn't change anything, it just made life harder for the horse. After 12 years with this behavior from my older gelding he has yet to offer to actually kick or bite in any situation. It's like raising kids--you've got to pick your battles. Some are just not worth the fight. Different story should the horse actually kick or bite though!
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Member:
Mickey01
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 4:48 pm:
Debby, thanks for the warning on the bridle and bit. I was told he was dead broke... a childs horse. The first time I tried to jump on him bareback I ended up on the ground. The second time I ended up on the ground. I finally lunged him for about 15 minutes, and left him in his stall for about 30 minutes with the bridle on--just to think about it. The ground has been to frozen or to slippery to try any more acrobatics, so I've decided to wait until Spring. In all fairness to him, I was trying to get on him in the barn, and he was trying to get outside with the other horses. In addition, I think the second time was the result of him stumbling, not really trying to get me off. Didn't make the ground feel any better though :-) Come Spring, I'm going to lunge him first, go to full tack, and keep the other horses inside while I ride. Hopefully, by that time, we'll have worked out this personality thing.
Christos, I hope I don't smell like guy... or, at least not a mean guy ;-) On another site, I read that you should always stay very close to a horse that might kick. If they try to kick, they may throw you away from them, but they won't actually be able to kick you. Can't say I've ever tried it. I'm more of a safe distance kind of gal myself! When I have had to walk passed him in the stall, he doesn't swing his hind end toward me, just hikes that hind leg on the same side I'm on.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 5:30 pm:
Oops!
The smell may be just the soap you wash your hands with, Mickey.
Staying close is an interesting point of view.
Some say that you'll be pushed by the hocks instead of being hit by hooves. Some believe that you'll get kicked lower, avoiding head injuries.
Truth is, horses are very competent if they decide to kick. They can easily and swiftly compensate for the distance necessary for their kick to be accurate. If you only get pushed by the horse's hocks, it means the horse only wanted to push you. If you get kicked at a leg, it means the horse only wanted to kick low.
Keep in mind that if you ever get kicked, where you'll land may be even more critical than the kick itself. So if the situation is fishy, proceed with it in a roomy and soft place.
Is this horse easy with giving his legs? It sounds like Debby is right and he's just relaxing his leg for you.
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 6:16 pm:
Just wanted to say I have been kicked by a horse who I was standing close to behind - he was my own horse, usually a very calm and non-aggressive horse. I was brushing his tail at the time and another horse who was stabled near to where he was tied lunged at him, and his reaction was to lash out, full force!
And I can say yes you can certainly get kicked, hard, standing close to a horse!! Luckily for me I am 'well padded' in the thigh area, otherwise I would probably have had two broken legs. I had the most amazing bruises afterwards 
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 6:52 pm:
Indeed, as Julie has said, it is the underdog horses who are usually the most "punchy" at feeding time. The dominant ones don't have to posture . . . they just move toward the food and wrinkle up a nostril and stick their noses out toward the other horses.
As far as trying to decide about the leg . . . if he eyes you and tenses it for a kick at you, a squirt gun seems like it might be a safe tool to use to get the horse to tuck his butt and keep that leg under.
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New Member:
Vrich
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 10:43 pm:
I have an off-the-track standardbred with the same behavior. Many people have told me that they are often hit around their heads and tend to be very head shy. Whether that's true or not, I never feel that my Harry pins his ears out of anything but fear. He is very afraid of hands and loud noises, so my tact is to be calm and gentle with him. He is much more affectionate and responsive than when he first arrived. I would advise gentleness and calmness in dealing with your horse. Who knows what he may have experienced at the track?
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Member:
Mickey01
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Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 10:49 am:
Christos, it must be that antibacterial gel I use Good reminder about the importance of the landing site. If the ground hadn't been sloppy with a good snow cover, I would probably have been hurt the second time I came off him.
Gill, good to know that was a bad theory! I won't try that again!
Holly Wood, I like the squirt gun idea, but where to you squirt them... the head or the tail?
Val Rich, I don't believe he has been abused...at least I was told he was a very calm, dead broke, childs horse... which doesn't equate to abuse in my mind. I have a lot of confidence in the people from the adoption place, so I believe they were telling me the truth. I've never seen him react in what I would describe as a fearful manner, but maybe I'm just not reading his boby language correctly. Ironically, out of the stall I don't have any real problems...except staying on him of course. Although, he always pins his ears around food. I probably just don't worry about it so much in the pasture.
All, I took the bull by the horns (figuratively speaking), and decided the problem wasn't him... it was me. SO, before I had heard from Christos and Gill, I just walked into the stall like I was supposed to be there...standing close to his body. When he hiked his leg, I slapped his hip and told him to get that leg down. He did! He still pins his ears though, so I'm not 100% comfortable with him in a stall. Not enough cushy landing sites But, I'm more confident about this leg thing now. Thanks for all the advice and input... it was very helpful. I'll try to spend more time just getting to know him and letting him get to know me. Unfortunately, I tend to bond with my horses in their stalls while they're eating. Definitely not working for this boy!
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 11:04 am:
Hey, Micky,
If you are really afraid this horse is going to kick you, and his butt is toward you or the door as he's eating in his stall, I would squirt him (from 10 feet back) on the butt (right by the dock of the tail) because that will usually make a horse tuck his behind . . . If you shot him in the face, he would only turn away from you and give you his back end . . . which you really don't want.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 4:16 pm:
Hi again, Mickey.
Though slapping or otherwise hitting a horse's hind end is something one sees often, on the ground and under saddle, I believe it is a very wrong thing to do.
It may easily provoke a kick, out of surprise or in a reflexive or playful kind of way, in a situation where the horse was not even thinking of kicking you in the first place.
The water squirt that Holly suggests is the best thing you can do. Probably because it does not hurt, horses accept it much better than a slap or a sting with a whip. It seems to surprise them more than it scares them, and I have not seen it produce extreme defence (kicking) or panick.
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Member:
Ribbons
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Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 5:11 pm:
One of my mares got into the habit of turning her rump toward her stall door whenever someone entered her stall (without food!)My farrier showed me the following method to train her to keep her head facing foward. At the stall door, take a lead rope and just toss it towards the horse's rear. You don't need to hit him-just annoy him. Stand out of kicking range, though, and leave the door open. Quit when he eventually turns toward you, even just a little, praise him. It took my dominant mare about 3 times to figure this out. I never thought she would kick me. I think she was just blowing me off and didn't appreciate it. We do have to "review" periodically, but it works like a charm.
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Member:
Ribbons
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Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 5:14 pm:
One of my mares got into the habit of turning her rump toward her stall door whenever someone entered her stall (without food!)My farrier showed me the following method to train her to keep her head facing foward. At the stall door, take a lead rope and just toss it towards the horse's rear. You don't need to hit him-just annoy him. Stand out of kicking range, though, and leave the door open. Quit when he eventually turns toward you, even just a little, praise him. It took my dominant mare about 3 times to figure this out. I never thought she would kick me. I think she was just blowing me off and didn't appreciate it. We do have to "review" periodically, but it works like a charm.
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Member:
Mickey01
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 4:02 pm:
He has not hiked his leg since I slapped his hip (really just a very light tap Christos--I swear  ). However, he does stand with his hind end towards the stall door. Of course, that could be because his feed station is in the diagonal corner, and he is waiting for his food. Regardless, I think I will try to get him to face me when I walk into the stall... just to be on the safe side. Thanks everyone for all the good ideas!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 5:50 pm:
It surely works, Mickey.
If it wasn't, people wouldn't whip or slap their horse's hind ends so often.
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