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  Discussion on Trustworthy trail horse goes berserk...smells tigers?
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Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 4:54 pm:

My 11 yr old paint is never bothered by cars, trucks, tractors, dogs, cats, chain saws, ATVs, etc. He goes out for light trail riding 4 to six times a week, and we vary the 3 trails available to us. I trust this horse very much. He can be strong so he isn't a kid's horse but doesn't spook or act nutty. Sunday, I had some time so I decided to keep him out a little longer than usual. (Normally 1 1/2 hours) We were just an hour into the ride, and just about 200 yards past the point where we normally turn around, when he started acting weird- rearing, crow hopping, prancing and bucking. Then, he stopped, smelled the air, and bucked me with all his strength. His hindquarters actually contacted the back of my cowboy hat. I could barely stay on. Traffic stopped to watch the spectacle.I tried the john Lyons one rein thing but he just jerked th other way. After 5 minutes I finally got to use my emergency dismount - I vaulted off just as he stepped into the road with cars coming. But it didn't stop- he continued bucking and rearing and it was all I could do to hold onto the reins. He dragged me through the dirt back and forth, he looked terrorized. He did NOT calm down, so with some volunteer spectators I moved him down the road to some grass where I thought he'd calm down by grazing (with the bit, but I was desparate.)I was able to take off the saddle, check it, check his back, but I ended up walking him halfway home. When I got too tired, I got back up and he was fine. I later learned that the house that this occurred in front of keeps 2 bengal tigers on 10 acres along w/ other big cats. I saw other horses pass this home w/ no problem. Could it be a deviation from his routine? or the smell of big cats? (I smelled nothing but am not a horse!)I am contemplating having a professional ride him in the same direction to see if he does the same thing. Any thoughts on how to handle this, if at all, would be appreciated.-Beth
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 5:36 pm:

Holy moly... batman.. is this the guy that has a bunch of tigers. One got loose last christmas, roamed the area, and the law enforcement guy who found him panicked and shot him?

I bet it was the smell of the tiger. The last true remaining predator to a horse. I remember at my old barn. 70 stalls of horses went nuts, a guy brought a baby panther cub to the pool area. 1/2 an acre away. But it didn't matter that the horses were in their own area, comfort zone and everything, and still went nuts. never saw the thing just smelled it.

Beth, are you ok? shaken up i bet. and sore...I would def. get a trainer to take him thru it, otherwise you can never go that direction...Is he ok now? i bet he's sore too...

Would driving him by the property in a trailer, lesson the impact? or just a bad idea?

jojo
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 5:47 pm:

maybe you could ask the people with the tigers if they have an article of material or something that has been with or rubbed on the tigers, that you could use to try and desensitize your horse with.

I had to do this with big game for my pack horses.

Use it to sack your horse out with in a controlled environment. If he won't let you get close you could put it close to the corral or tie it to the fence where your horse gets water. They have to drink sometime.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 5:50 pm:

Beth!
Bengal tigers? I'd buck you off and run home...
Seriously now, if it was only because of the tigers (had he had a way of knowing what a tiger is, how it smells and what it does for a living) he'd take off for home, he wouldn't put up a show on the spot.
It sounds more like being angry with passing his turnaround point, then of course the smell of the cats could have amplified his objections.
Try to violate this limit of his on one of the other two trails and see what happens. Better with another horse or a friend on a bicycle leading for the first time.
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 5:54 pm:

You see what makes me wonder if indeed it was the big cats, which of course seems to be the obvious, is that you mentioned that it is your normal trail?!

Could there have been something else near by, my mare was terrified of pigs, or dead birds on the road, believe it or not another really extra calm shire x TB that we had would panic at the sight of a red puppy flower...

Just a thought...
Liliana
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 5:56 pm:

He might have seen something also. Walmart sometimes has large stuffed animals that are big cats you could also use this as a visual desensitizer, and audio tapes of any big cats talking played for 20 minutes or more each day or often will help, big cats sometimes make noises that are hard to hear that horses don't like.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 5:59 pm:

I've come across mountain lion, and bear trails and fresh scat in the mountains that spooked my trail worthy horse big time....

deer, elk, varmints, sheep, cattle, nothing happens.

I have to continualy sack my horse out with a cat skin and a bear skin, it's easy enough to spot sign for further desensitizing. It helps but he still needs refresher sacking.
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 6:29 pm:

Hey I just remembered another thing that happened to me at one time, my also trustworthy angel threw a wobly unexplicably and what happened was that it got stung by a big hornet. ouch
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 6:57 pm:

Beth, have you gone further past that point on other rides with no problem?

I don't know where you are located, and I know it is too cold in some places for ground bees to be active this time of year, but could bees be a possibility? If not, I am betting it is the smell or sight of a big cat.

I once saw a whole group of docile summer camp horses go haywire when a moose sauntered through their pasture. The horses were terrified, and getting them down to camp that morning was quite an ordeal. Moose aren't horse predators, but I have been told by one French Canadian farmer/logger that he watched a bull moose kill and maim some horses once during rutting season, so . . . there are built-in self-preservation reactions that our horses have, and that may have been what your horse was displaying. Ideally, we want our horses to be trained well enough to override those reactions when we are working with them . . . for OUR safety as well as theirs.

I may be wrong, but I am betting that Cheryl's assumption is correct, and her techniques may be worth trying . . . at least it would clue you in to whether or not the big cats are an issue.
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2005 - 8:24 am:

Ask for some tiger shit, put it in the yard and see if the horses react to it (if you want to know if it was the tigers or the change in routine...)

Imogen
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2005 - 8:39 am:

Beth,

You say he "smelled the air" then bucked more. Sounds like he got confused and thought you were the cat on his back and he was going home no matter what! I think his instincts just took over at that point.

I always figure if a horse that's usually good on the trails has a problem there's a good reason for it. It may not make sense to us, but if I'm riding alone (which is usually the case) I listen to my horse. Usually we can just turn around and calmly go home.

You sure can be proud of your riding skills, sounds like you made the 8 seconds! :-) (W*W)

I'd just take him for walks that way along with doing the desensitizing Cheryl mentioned.

Keep us posted....geez, lions and tigers and bears O my.......

That reminds me of something....when we first moved here (the U.P. of MI) my husband and I were on our usual loop we rode. I was probably 20 feet behind him. As we were crossing a field I saw something at the opening of the woods trail. I tried to get hubbys attention but he was looking off the other way. I swore I saw a panther! But being new to the area (grew up in farm country in MN) I figured I'd never hear the end of it if I mentioned that's what I thought I saw. Years later I found out that there was indeed a panther loose up here, some guy actually captured it on video. It had escaped from some traveling show that came thru the area.

THAT'S why I listen to my horse!!

Angie
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005 - 3:51 pm:

Wow, guys, all good advice. I've gotten a lot of mileage w/ the story- someone stopped me in the feed store to tell me they heard I had become a cowboy...ha. I was scared to death! How people can intentionally get on bucking horses or bulls is beyond me- my problem is that I didn't get off after 8 seconds cause all I could think of was to hold on! I am still mentally recovering.This is a horse I would have trusted in ANY situation! It just shakes you to the core. If he got that weird, any horse can.
I can't understand this situation at all. I actually believe that the horse just got miffed that I pushed him past his usual turning back point and he just went nuts. How can he even know what a tiger is? I am SURE he has never seen or smelled one before. I didn't see any bee stings but I'm not sure that I would. He's had several bad bug bites and no bad behavior resulted. In any case, it was totally unacceptable behavior which nearly killed me, tiger scent or not. I am having a professional who specializes in behavioral problems come and evaluate the horse in the same area where he went crazy. I hope that he just does nothing, and that this was an isolated incident. But I will not be on him when and if he has a recurrence...will update when I get this rider to come out.
Jojo- this woman who has these tigers also has an array of other large cats. She has non-profit sanctuary status. Not the same guy whose tiger got shot in Loxahachee. This one is in Wellington. Gosh, if I'd wanted to live next to 600 lb predatory cats I'd have moved to India or Siberia! There really should be a law....I live about 4 or 5 miles down the road from her.Our local gators are really enough excitement for me. Tigers should not be one of my issues!!!
-Beth
Member:
Lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005 - 6:10 pm:

Beth,

I hope you find out what set your trusty trailhorse off. Either one of my horses might have reacted similarly to an unexpected sight or smell. Our horses had to get used to Llamas, for instance. Where we ride, there are Llamas and sometimes they just have to run up to the fence to get close to the horses. Goats were not instantly accepted, either.

On a recent trailride, two elk bulls came suddenly out of the oak brush and crossed the road ahead of us. A beautiful sight, but the first horse in line (a very trustworthy trailhorse) got spooked. He did not do anything bad, just stood there with his heart pounding (his rider said: heart going 90 miles a minute!).

I guess the point I am trying to make - no matter how experienced, under certain circumstances a horse can react strongly to something unexpected. On the other hand, it could have been the combination of being pushed farther from home, and some weird smell ...

I'll be curious how this goes with the trainer .. will be looking for the update.

Lilo
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 12:18 pm:

Anyone watch CNN last night? Someone's 600 lb tiger was shot dead in a park, in back of an elementary school, near a residential neighborhood in California. I mean, I am a big believer in people getting to do whatever they want with their land, but tigers? I keep thinking now one day I will look out my kitchen window and see a tiger stalking my horse.....or minis...or worse my children.(law of averages says one day one will escape). What kind of wingnut has a hobby that WILL, if given 1/4 a chance, eat you? Who keeps tigers in a residential neighborhood? It is zoned Ag/res, and is only 10 acres. What if my hobby was nuclear fusion? Do I get to do it in my garage? What a selfish woman.....Sorry, just had to vent. :-( -Beth
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 12:20 pm:

Anyone watch CNN last night? Someone's 600 lb tiger was shot dead in a park, in back of an elementary school, near a residential neighborhood in California. I mean, I am a big believer in people getting to do whatever they want with their land, but tigers? I keep thinking now one day I will look out my kitchen window and see a tiger stalking my horse.....or minis...or worse my children.(law of averages says one day one will escape). What kind of wingnut has a hobby that WILL, if given 1/4 a chance, eat you? Who keeps tigers in a residential neighborhood? It is zoned Ag/res, and is only 10 acres. What if my hobby was nuclear fusion? Do I get to do it in my garage? What a selfish woman.....Sorry, just had to vent. :-( -Beth
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 12:21 pm:

oops- sorry Dr O-my computer is also misbehaving, like my horse.
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 1:01 pm:

Thanks for the chuckle, Beth. Do-it-yourself nuclear fusion, eh?
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 1:46 pm:

It's funny what people think is ok, well not funny but you know......
Kinda like wolves and wolf dogs,or the pit bull that will never hurt anyone.

I'd definitly like to hear what the trainer thinks. Who know's what it was that set your horse off. Hopefully it was an isolated incident.

Tigers are an interest training oppourtunity though. I spend alot of time in the mountains packing all kinds of things so I try to expose my horses to as many things as I can possible find.

The scariest/funniest incident was with my friends up hunting and a bull moose thought my friends horse was pretty hot looking...... We had to bail, and the horse made it back to camp. We were very lucky that the horse was ok but, you should have seen the look on my friends face and the horse's too. That big black thing wants to do what?????

Sorry not really relative to the post but thought I'd share it.
Member:
Canter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 1:56 pm:

Sadly, Beth, the tiger incident in CA is not the first of some idiot keeping a big cat as a pet. Not that long ago, I think in NY city (!!), someone's "kitty" (I think a tiger or a panther) turned on him, causing serious injury. When the police looked into the incident, the cat was not the only exotic animal found in the small apartment. Friends of mine who were in NY City over Thanksgiving claim to have seen a Cheetah suning itself in someone's window.

Can't imagine how anyone who claims to love these animals could keep them so out of their natural habitat...or, when Fluffy the lion grows up, just turn it loose. I saw the news reports and although I'm very saddened that that CA tiger had to be destroyed, what's mind blowing to me is that all the sanctuaries that are set up to rescue these cats from the idiots are completely full!! Scary and very sad to think about how many of these beautiful animals are out there, not being properly cared for, and posing a potential risk for others.

...OK...my apologies for venting as well....

Fran
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 3:40 pm:

Beth,
when i was property searching out by us (sorry guys you might not see the funniness) i couldn't understand why Loxahatchee groves homes were cheaper than the acreage. I mean same developers, same acreage, same everything. Till one day the realtor made a comment that most of loxahatchee groves backs up to lion country safari...

eeee gads... can you imagine? after a hurricane? forget it. i didn't care how cheap the housing was, i wasn't about to take a chance that one day a tiger might, or might not get loose. Or a stampede of angry rhinos. how about a few elephants trotting down the street... hmm...

I do feel that anyone can do what they please. As long as it doesn't Harm another. or create an undo safety issue. Like i posted earlier some guys tiger got out. And although he said he was a big kitty... the law enforcement shot him where he lay. and i really don't see anything wrong with that, except for the poor animal dead because of a person's exotic tastes...

joj
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 4:12 pm:

I think they should have tranquilized the tiger and shot the owner. If they did that a few times in these situations, I think people would take their responsibility more seriously.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 7:18 pm:

I second Colleen's comment. I can't stand the thought of animals suffering when it's the owners who are,______ well, fill in the word you think fits best!!

Anyone who owns any animal outa the ordinary should be required by law to let their neighbors know what they have. Then at least when we're out riding we know what we might encounter.

O jeez Cheryl, I hope we never meet any Macho moose on the trails.....funny but scary.
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 7:33 pm:

Colleen, I'm with you! Let the consequences fall on the one who deserves it, not the innocent victem.
Member:
Geronimo

Posted on Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 - 9:26 am:

Hi Beth, I wanted to share a few incidences that have occurred to me and my horses. About 6 years ago I was trail riding on my slow and steady QTR mare when she too, got a wiff and an eye of something and gave a spin and full on buck -both legs out kicking, and became of difference horse. She had the most spirit I'd even seen, we took off running (so did the other rider and horse)she gave a few more kicks and seems to be worried about what was behind her. We have black bears, mountain lions and coyote in the area. but I really don't know what it was. She has never done it again and we had gone back to that same trail again without incident. Secondly, My gelding Geronimo was born at a stable that had a wild animal rescue on one of the property. They had a panther,a Bear, a wolf, monkeys, aligator, you name it. Anyway, these people were the best, they never charged much for board, the horse facility was nice, they had kids that rode and did 4H. As my colt got bigger he always seemed to be a scaredy cat. He started to pull away at the lead when walking around the ranch. These animals were not in sight, but sometimes you could hear them. They were also behind large cages and the area was gated around the compound. Anyway, I moved my horses away when my colt was about 8 months old, but circumstances brought us back years later. The first night that I brought my now gelding back, he went through two fences and was laid up for a month. He had cuts from the wire, nothing broke, but I think mentally it was bad for him. He wasn't alone when it happened, he was with two buddies, they had a few minor cuts but did not go through the fence. After my horse mended, he became uncontrolable. He was so hot all the tme and when I rode him, especially around the ranch, it seems like he was going to explode. He began to pull away when I walked him on the lead. He would take off, zip around the ranch like a crazy horse. I could always catch him, because he was afraid as well. This was the beginning of many problems. We've had many issues since then, but I believe our problems began because of his natural instincts. We are still working on leading issues years later but they have improved even in the past week). Everyone told me that it was the horse and not the animals, but after thinking about it, the kids at that ranch were always having problems with their horses bucking or rearing for no apparent reason. But I belie}ve that my horse, being overly sensitive could not handle the smell or noise from the preditors around the hill. I moved him away from there and after years of training, he isn't the big scardey cat he was a few years ago. It's taken alot of time to get his trust again, we are still working on it. I've thought of selling him, but feel responsible for some of his behavior. Long story short. Horses and preditors don't mix unless you have a "Zip" or have time to make a "Zip", and the patience of John Lyons. Good luck to you and trust your horse.Lisa
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 10:50 am:

Everyone SITTING DOWN ? The TIGER GOT LOOSE Saturday! How weird is that? just when I had my "incident." Guess my horse has some sense....I do still trust him under normal Florida circumstances (i.e. he can handle wild pigs, otters, deer, alligators, big noisy birds, and loud car motors), but I will avoid this place with the 600 lb man-eating predators.
I pulled my car out of my subdivision Saturday, and saw a bunch of police officers with machine guns. I asked why I couldn't pass, and they said some nut let a tiger loose, it was grooming itself in a horse pasture in Wellington. They waited for Lion Country Safari (a local attraction) experts to shoot it w/ a tranquilizer dart. Luckily for the tiger, it worked. It was in the papers this Sunday, the Palm Beach Post. I am going to try and post the article here. I am still wondering how it is that Florida gives a license to this person, on only 10 acres, to have 16 big cats- in a residential neighborhood. Apparently she was the first home out here- and to this I say, So???
I am trying to regain my horse's trust now. Which is definitely harder when I myself get the heebie jeebies every time we go out alone and I hear a twig snap. We are both still nervous but are riding, riding, riding through it. I decided against having a professional ride the horse in front of the tiger lady's house- what's the point- what if he throws the guy and gets away? Am I making a big mistake allowing the horse to "get away" with such behavior- when if I just avoid this place he is unlikely ever to encounter the smell of big cats again? He still has ill effects from the incident- he is more spooky on the trail. What I need is the reincarnation of Bright Zip.... (remember the picture of him and the grizzly?)
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 11:38 am:

I've been following this thread, and when I saw the escaped tiger on the news on Sunday, I wondered if it was your area!! Best of luck to you as you work through this. I understand it was carelessness on the part of the person going into the tiger's area...someone didn't close the gate properly? I agree....perhaps this animal sanctuary needs to be moved/closed now that suburbia has encroached upon it.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 12:55 pm:

Horses don't lie. They don't always make the best choices, but they aren't devious . . . they always have an honest reason for doing what they do.

Good for you, Beth, for sticking with it . . . It is doubtful you will ever have a similar incident.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 1:03 pm:

Perhaps you need to trust your horse's judgement a little more. If your horse handles all the "normal" (alligators!) things on your rides, and he suddenly starts acting up, he may know something you don't. On my horses who are used to the normal trail stuff, if they start snorting and acting nervous, I take a hard look and listen. Unless I can see that it's just a piece of plastic blowing around, or something similar, I trust their judgement and go another route. Note, I don't go home. Just turn and go another way. I've had a horse avoid a rattle snake I didn't see; refuse to ride through a rock formation where later on I saw cougar tracks, and refuse to cross a wooden bridge, that someone else fell through the following day. I feel my horse is my partner out on the trail, and as a partner, I have to listen to her at times.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 2:24 pm:

Soooo true Sara... There is some unknown thing in a steady horse that i know to trust her when she balks. Of course, i haven't seen a tiger on trail. But i have seen bears. and remnants of things that truly were spooky. and when she won't cross a river... now i know to look up a bit, cause i bet there is a gator close by... And she is almost as good a watch dog as the dogs are....

Beth, i read the little article.. there are pics on the palmbeachpost website of the tiger and capture. Its interesting cause in one of the photos in the background there was a riding ring with jumps in it...I wonder if this refuge owner has horses?

i know you're angry, but you can't blame the refuge for being out here. And on the other side of your point, my neighbors have the same feeling, like "we were out here first". And i do feel for them. "we meaning hunters, farmers, etc. All the reasons they moved out here are vanishing. Imagine buying land 1/2 mile from your favorite hunting site. And now that surbanites are moving in THEY are getting upset because of 4-wheelers or swamp buggies, or gunfire, bonfires, airboats, etc... But, its also a matter of respect between neighbors. Now that i moved in and have goats (prey) and horse (prey) and cats (prey) and birds, he has to lock up his hog dogs... which would love to chase and eat anyone of my kids... I could see how a city person, would not get along with some of my neighbors. I do feel that we should be accomodating to them in some regards. They were here first. And when the land across my property gets built on. I hope they respect the fact i have horses, and dogs, etc

Wildlife management did say in the article that they have a 10ft high fence that goes around the whole property and the tiger couldn't have left the 10 acres.

jojo
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 3:21 pm:

Beth
I sympathize with the tiger problem and think you handled the situation great. I also think pet owners need to be responsible and I don’t agree with private ownership of “wild” animals but hearing the comments like
‘this animal sanctuary needs to be moved/closed now that suburbia has encroached upon it. “ and “she was the first home out here- and to this I say, So???” Reminds me how suburbia is encroaching on all of us (some faster than others.) and one day when a housing development surrounds yours or my farm and residents are up in arms about your horses might get out and step on their lawn or kick their children (which actually happened) and the smell of horse manure, and you should move to another area with more land, so what if you’ve been there for 30 years-we are here now so MOVE AND TAKE YOUR STINKY HORSES WITH YOU! Well, we might think differently about the folks running these sanctuaries. Of course I don’t have tigers living next to me (although I did have a neighbor who had mountain lions for pets and I recall one getting loose). I don’t mean to offend anyone Just something to consider.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 3:33 pm:

Horses are pretty smart, my dogs usually cue me before the horses do but if i miss the dogs cue on the trail I definitly know when the horses sense something.My gelding starts chomping and snorting. I am glad that since the cat escaped no one has been hurt.

My mountain riding is probably pretty risky but I know what I will come across and I do my best to desensitize my horses using scat, hides and tapes of sounds the animals make. My 16.1hand mustang actually wanted to take on a very large bull during a storm was interesting but he minded.

Best thing to gain your horses trust right now is to do a lot of regular sacking out and groundwork right now.

On another note not to scare anyone or cause anyone to be paranoid my aunt called me this weekend and said some guy she works with took his mule and dogs out to the mountains and he got knocked out of the saddle and next thing he knew his mule was killing a mountain lion, he was pretty lucky and had a camera and took pictures. The mule actually had the lion in his teeth and repeatedly whipped the animal back and forth, killing it. I hope my horses protect me if something rare like this ever happened.
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 4:51 am:

Colleen you are so right. There is a proposed bylaw in Killarney now, where horse-and-cart to see the views is a traditional tourism activity, to give the horses nappies so the poor townspeople don't have to put up with that nasty stinky horsemanure. I mean... really...

Imogen
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 11:36 am:

Cheryl,
Your aunt has been taken for a very long ride...
The pictures of this mule "killing" a mountain lion are all over the web, but that lion had already been shot dead by the time the mule got hold of it.
Member:
Canter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 1:40 pm:

Colleen,
You're scenario about people moving to the country and complaining about farm animals and horses is dead on...This is actually happening in my community. People are moving to rural areas and then complaining and suing farmers because of the smell of manure. We actually made national headlines since some politician or government board got smart and now when someone wants to move out into the country, the town is suppling "scratch and sniff" cards so that before someone buys a house next to a horse farm, they know what the potential odor factor is (I am absolutely not kidding about this)...and the potential new homeowner must sign an agreement stating that they will not sue a farmer over normal farm operations such as operating machinery late at night, a loose horse, smells, etc.

I completely empathise with Beth's scare and do not believe people should be allowed to keep exotics as pets...but if they are there legally and take precautions so that the animals cannot escape and pose a risk to anyone else, then it is unfair to expect them to move.
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 3:03 pm:

Imogen
Are nappies the equivelent to diapers? I have seen carriage horses with some fabric device that runs from their behinds to the carriage that catches any DrOppings. Funny how the same people that are offended by manure on the street will pay high dollar for the same stuff if you put it in a plastic bag and call it organic fertilizer.

Fran
I think that is a great idea! Finally a governing body doing something logical and practical. My "scenario" is also happening in my rural area. I guess thats why is kind of a sore spot with me. I wish my local officials were more sympathetic to the local farmers and long time citizens, but I guess money talks.
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 3:12 pm:

I have to agree with Colleen and others. My statement was a bit hasty....but after a scare like that it is how I would FEEL. However, I do live on a long stretch of road with no neighbors and no one to complain of my three horses and other assorted pets. Eventually, that will change, and I do think about what will happen when it does.

As with any situation, though, it's hard to make a categorical statement that just because something was there FIRST, it has the right to remain permanently and unchanged. If that were the case, there would be no such thing as eminent domain. Not that that's a good thing....it's not! The point is, all of us have to adapt to change, and most of the time it doesn't seem fair -- Where can you go anymore to get away from it all??? It just ends up following you!

There don't seem to be any easy answers to this one. And I dread the day I begin having neighbors...but I know it's coming.....
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 3:18 pm:

Hi all,
I know, I know- there is always tension between the horsey and non- horsey people in my subdivision. And sometimes it is very unpleasant. But at least my horses haven't developed a taste for human flesh....I mean, it just takes the word nuisance to a whole new level. It's a danger, not just a nuisance. Plus, I have 5 acres and would not dream of more than two big horses and two minis, as they all destroy paddocks very fast and it's hard to keep the place looking nice especially since I work. But 16 big cats on 10 acres, when in the wild these cats prefer over 100 square miles to themselves? How miserable the cats must be- my friend who witnessed the scene said the cat walked in a square even though it was in a large horse pasture. How sad. The "sanctuary" which includes a private home (I wonder how that tax deal works...)is licensed, has fencing all over the place, and still this happened. I think my horse has a lot more sense than this tiger person. He knew a dangerous situation when he smelled it, and the frantic behavior was his way of telling me, run for your life! The tiger lady apparently does not understand the danger. Had the tiger lopped off her head in the five hours he was loose before she decided to call the authorities (word has it the tiger was loose since 6:30 AM, not the 9:30 reported in the paper), I believe people might feel differently about the place around here. By the way, she has several dressage horses on the same 10 acres. So, I guess they get used to living with tigers. Right now I'm feeling sort of glad that my trail horse can sense danger and communicate that to me, even if he didn't do it in the most endearing way. -Beth
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 3:47 pm:

Hi all,
I know, I know- there is always tension between the horsey and non- horsey people in my subdivision. And sometimes it is very unpleasant. But at least my horses haven't developed a taste for human flesh....I mean, it just takes the word nuisance to a whole new level. It's a danger, not just a nuisance. Plus, I have 5 acres and would not dream of more than two big horses and two minis, as they all destroy paddocks very fast and it's hard to keep the place looking nice especially since I work. But 16 big cats on 10 acres, when in the wild these cats prefer over 100 square miles to themselves? How miserable the cats must be- my friend who witnessed the scene said the cat walked in a square even though it was in a large horse pasture. How sad. The "sanctuary" which includes a private home (I wonder how that tax deal works...)is licensed, has fencing all over the place, and still this happened. I think my horse has a lot more sense than this tiger person. He knew a dangerous situation when he smelled it, and the frantic behavior was his way of telling me, run for your life! The tiger lady apparently does not understand the danger. Had the tiger lopped off her head in the five hours he was loose before she decided to call the authorities (word has it the tiger was loose since 6:30 AM, not the 9:30 reported in the paper), I believe people might feel differently about the place around here. By the way, she has several dressage horses on the same 10 acres. So, I guess they get used to living with tigers. Right now I'm feeling sort of glad that my trail horse can sense danger and communicate that to me, even if he didn't do it in the most endearing way. -Beth
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 4:32 pm:

oops- sorry for double post- have been having trouble w/ site lately, may be my computer. -Beth
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 5:07 pm:

Beth
I think the way to go is through legislation to stop the importation, selling and breeding of these wild animals and then have tighter restrictions for ownership. Not long ago I was on a web site for big cat rescues that had alot of info about state regulations. Maybe you could get more info on the legalities in your area and make sure this lady is in compliance. I feel sorry for these animals that are in these situations because of human ignorance.
As others have said and riders know that horses can sense things we cant and it pays to listen to your horse. At least you know that you can handle extreme situations.
Colleen
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 6:13 pm:

well I be an idiot I will have to let my aunt know about the pic.

our town is trying to change our zoning where i live , it's a high density rural area with livestock priveleges; they are trying to make us have a plan for removing smells from our property and trying to do away with round pens and arenas because of the dust go figure.

Exotics as pets..... When I lived in oklahoma the big thing was ostriches, then after a while they weren't profitable and some local yahoo turned them loose, people had to shoot them they would run around feral and kick the crap out of or kill the smaller livestock in the area and dogs that found them trespassing.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 7:01 pm:

Hi Fran, my home owners association would be really interested in these agreements and scratch and sniff cards your community is using and the newspaper articles. I know it is way of subject for the post but our community is going through something very similar and we could use any help. My email is shohler@wyoming.com
I didn't want to email you without permission.
Thanks
Cheryl Hohler
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 7:11 pm:

I checked hoaxbusters.com and couldn't find anything about the mule/cougar story. I haven't checked snopes.com . . .

In the photos I saw, the cougar was not dead . . . at first . . . and the rifle is definitely missing from it's scabbard . . . so who can tell the reality of those photos? . . . and with "Photo Shop," amazing things can be done with photos these days . . . Nevertheless,

. . . it is quite true that mules are wonderful "watch dogs" and superior protection for horse or cattle herds. When I did a semester study on THE AMERICAN WEST, I studied the use of "beasts of burden" in America from the 1500s until the 20th Century.

Mules were noted for their ferocity in dealing with predators, and were often placed in a herd of cattle or horses for the express purpose of defending said animals from cougar and wolves.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 10:00 pm:

I think mules get their ferocity (with predators) from their donkey side. All the sheep ranchers around here have donkeys or burros in with their sheep to protect them.

We once adopted an ancient wild burro and her foal. ALL of our dog problems immediately stopped. Old Rosie would go into "steam engine mode" charging head down, ears back, snorting and blowing at the first sight of a stray dog. She was great!

Re: the suburbia vs. rural problem. That is the main reason we moved to Utah from Northern California. The barn and surrounding area had been horse property (once a training track and barn) since the late 60's & we had owned it for over 12 yrs. A couple of builders bought up all the land around us and put in a gaited community, so we were an "island" surronded by a gaited community. We had plenty of acreage, kept everything neat, and did lots of improvements to the property, which once had been run-down and an eyesore. We were good neighbors & on several occasions went and helped horse owners, including spending a night riding in the mountains searching for a lost horse. Did any of this matter? NO!! The homeowners wanted us out. They were afraid our stallions would attack the dogs, pregnant women and small children (honest!) that our clients would come and ride their broodmares who would slip and fall down on the roads, resulting in lawsuits. The final blow came when the town declared manure hazardous waste and it had to be contained in concrete or put in dumpsters and collected. That's when we decided there were better places to live! Now I hear that some of the trails we helped build have been closed to horses; hikers only. This is happening all over the west.

There are several groups that try and protect our trails. There have been a lot of articles in different horse magazines about keeping your rights to have horses. I think everyone who enjoys riding/owning/breeding horses needs to get involved in these various groups. if not, many will loose their right to ride and own horses.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 2:47 am:

Here are some links to the pictures:
https://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/mulelion.asp
https://community.webshots.com/album/224665671eSTYzv
https://malimore.tripod.com/mule/

Please note than in the first picture the rifle is not in the saddle, then, while the mule was in the process of killing the lion, the hunter was packing to go, ie he neatly packed his rifle and put it back in the saddle.
In the first and second pictures you can also see that the supposedly alive wild lion has a strap or chain attached to the left front leg.

To me, it does not matter one bit that the story is fictional. These pictures would be fun, if the curb reins were not dangling all around.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 6:45 am:

Beth,
There's not much you can do if somebody legally keeps dangerous animals in his property, but:
Can't you simply drag these people to court for losing their tigers and putting everyone in great danger? Shouldn't the local police do that automatically?
Can't you demand in court that this person installs a proper fence so that the animals can't escape? Shouldn't the authorities who issued his licence be able to enforce this, otherwise removing the licence?
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 8:13 am:

Hi Cheryl,

I think it was about a year or so ago that the community came up with the scratch & sniff thing...let me do some digging to get you more specifics and I will e-mail you with the info. I don't remember all the details except that I was amused by the whole situation at first and then outraged that the whole thing was neccessary. You're welcome to e-mail me as well.

Fran
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 8:23 am:

Hi Cheryl,
I found some info easier than I thought...I'll e-mail it to you but if you don't get it, let me know and we'll move to plan B...

Fran
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 9:17 am:

Fran,

Can you email me that information too? We are looking at buying a house in a horse community that is embedded in a larger suburban community. The HOA has rules about manure, arenas (they have fought long and hard to put lights in the community riding arena because the people who bought the house right next to the arena "to be near horses" don't ride and don't want "light pollution" near their home (ps - the arena was already there when they bought the house).

Anyway, I want to know what we are getting ourselves into! I do know a few people over there, and regular manure removal is an expensive requirement that I have to confess that I like. I don't like paying the money, but it is great to live 15 miles outside a major city, have horses, and have less flies! Those are the pros, I suppose.




Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 10:50 am:

christos, just to confirm. the tiger was on the owners property and never left. There is a ten foot wall around the entire ten acres. and law enforcement isn't pressing any charges since they feel that the woman was doing all she could to keep the animals in the compound. He just simply got out of his cage and went wandering. and she called them for tranquilizing. Which i don't understand why she wouldn't have that on-hand, AND know how to use...


Debbie, I would say STAYAWAY from HOA's... i lived in one for 6 years. it was called Saddleup... it doesn't get any more horsey than that. It was a constant battle. a constant arguement. and a constant drain... Always the horse people vs. the non-horse people. It just never seemed to work. The happiest day of my life was the day i moved out of there. and vowed NEVER to buy in a HOA again. and i wasn't even a targeted horseperson, i always followed all the rules and never created problems. But its the others around you that i found so draining. The horse rule sheet, started turning into a book... If you need more info.. Please email me i will give you heads up on all sorts of things....

jojo
Member:
Dyduroc

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 12:01 pm:

What an interesting thread!

Beth, I'm glad neither you nor your horse was injured! I'm also relieved that no one was injured by the tiger that got loose! Sounds as though your paint has some good sense--I certainly wouldn't want to stick around to see a big cat on the prowl!

To everyone else who contributed to the ensuing discussions, thank you! The urbanites are moving to the rural (formerly farming) communities here in New Hampshire and many of the issues brought up above are being hotly debated in some of the local towns. Who would ever have thought that owning, maintaining and enjoying horses (and livestock) could become such a polarizing issue!

D.


Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 1:02 pm:

Gee, Jojo, I read in the Palm Beach Post that the owner of the tiger compound was being charged, would be fined $500 (for her, it's a laugh),and could face jail time (probably won't happen.)Maybe they DrOpped it since.
As for the whereabouts of the tiger on his unexpected trip Saturday, my friend who was there stuck in traffic said it was an alarming sight- the tiger was in a horse pasture and could have either jumped out or pushed a gate open. I was not there, thank God, so I don't know how secure it was- it's Home Depot between the tiger and the neighborhood. (My miniature schnauzers cannot be confined for long w/ hurricane fencing...) The sherrif's office apparently thought the situation was grave, as it posted heavily armed officers at each road near my house that fed into the street where the tiger was, and had snipers ready to kill the cat if it decided to leave. The owner of the tiger place has put out this story that there was no danger because the cat never left her property, but I personally do not believe this.
Christos, unfortunately this woman has been licensed by the state of Florida to keep big cats. She seems to be breaking no laws, other than letting one out of its cage on this occassion. She has 16 large cats on her 10 acres in addition to her home, so the cats do not have that much room in my opinion. This is not like that actress out in California, where she has some major acreage for the cats. (she calls it Shambala) I do not think I'd have bought my place if I had known what was going on there just down the road. I just wish we'd have known beforehand. We have severe weather here in summer- if I'd have known the possibilities post-hurricane, I probably would have walked around armed, no kidding. I've known people that have weird pets-llamas, giant lizards, emus, wolves, marmocets, chimps,even a lady that has a bushbaby. But this is different- I still think it takes a supremely selfish individual to keep 600 lb predators in 15 foot iron cages in the heart of the Wellington, Florida, horse area. I am a total animal lover, constantly scooping up turtles from the highway, taking injured wildlife to vets, etc. I'm sure most of us here are. Forget about my anxiety- doesn't anybody feel sorry for these imprisoned animals?
W/ regard to the HOA situation, I am always concerned that one day horses will be voted out, even though it is "an equestrian community." It just takes a majority! I have actually gone back w/ my car and cleaned up horse manure my horse DrOpped on someone's front swale- just to keep the peace!! My friend from Missouri lived in a similar community that eventually voted that horses could no longer use the community trails. -Beth
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 1:20 pm:

Hi Debbie,
Here's the info I sent to Cheryl (I didn't find your e-mail address in your profile):

Here's the first article that I found / Holland Sentinel / 8/29/03 (Holland, Michigan)
Brochure on rural living gains national attention

By ASHER PIMPLETON

A recently released brochure giving prospective home buyers a literal whiff of the
Ottawa County country air is raising a big stink all over the globe.
"In our wildest dreams we would never imagine that we'd get this much attention," said Mark Knudsen, director of the Ottawa County Planning and Grants Department. "It just resonates positively with everybody."
The brochure, which was created by Knudsen's department, includes information on the type of noise, traffic and fertilizing practices that people who live around the agricultural community should expect. Potential residents can also get an idea of what that country air just might smell like via a scratch-and-sniff patch on the brochure, which smells like manure.
Although the scent may initially grab some by the nose, Knudsen said that he and his staff have become "numb to it" after more than two years of smelling test samples.
Within a week, Knudsen said copies of the brochure dwindled from 4,000 to 100.
However, Ottawa County residents are not the only ones getting educated about life in the country. Knudsen said he has received inquiries about the brochure from all over the nation and the world.
Knudsen said he has done radio interviews with reporters in Canada, Australia and the United Kingdom. The brochure has also generated interest from Harper's Magazine, nationally syndicated Chicago radio commentator Paul Harvey -- and even the Jimmy Kimmel Show, which airs on television late nights, Knudsen said.
Newspapers from everywhere ranging from Quebec to New York have also called about the brochure, Knudsen said. It will also be featured in the November issue of Reader's Digest, he said.
Cornell University staff, the U.S. Department of Agriculture and members of the Minnesota Legislature have also contacted Knudsen about the brochure.
"And it seems to just continue to snowball," he added.
While odor may be one of the primary complaints among residents who live near farming operations, Knudsen said it's not just the smell of animal leftovers that annoy people. He said farming equipment on the road, noise and pesticide applications also generate complaints.
"People have to realize (that) these are all standard farming practices," Knudsen said.
___________________________________
From the Holland Sentinel / 1/25/04:
Just as all of the stink surrounding a manure-scented brochure was beginning to die down, the scratch-and-sniff pamphlet is again gaining national attention.
"We thought this was done and started to get back to a normal life," said Ottawa County Planning and Grants Director Mark Knudsen. "It took on a whole new life again."
The brochure, created last summer by the Planning and Grants Department, was recently ranked No. 1 on Parade Magazine's list of last year's best 100 ideas for slowing urban sprawl.
The brochure, titled "If You Are Thinking About Moving to the Country, You May Want to Consider This ...," is targeted at people considering moving to the country to escape the noise, traffic and hassles of city life.
The publication is designed to reduce nuisance complaints new homeowners sometimes make against farmers. The pamphlet includes a scratch-and-sniff box, which emits a manure odor.
The brochure dispels misconceptions about country living while also providing background about the importance of farming operations, standard work practices and right-to-farm laws, Knudsen said.
Today, Knudsen was expected to fly to Portland, Ore., to talk about the brochure at the Environmental Protection Agency's annual conference.
Knudsen said he will also be speaking about the Blendon Township smart growth project, which was finished just two years ago.
As a result of joint efforts made by Blendon Township and Ottawa County officials, Knudsen said the township's master plan and rezoning ordinance have been completely revamped.
_______________________________________
I'm not sure this really applies to HOA situations. In this area, there are huge wide open spaces dotted with farms all over the place (horse, cow, pigs, fields of soy, corn, etc). The problems occurred when not a few new residents, wanting "country" living moved from the more populated areas next to these farms and then complained about the smells when the wind shifted or complained about some poor farmer working at 10pm trying to harvest his crop before the weather changed for the worse.

Hope it helps!

Fran

Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 1:56 pm:

There sure are conflicting stories about the tiger incident. Im wondering if this is a rescue/sanctuary or this lady just wants tigers for pets. I do feel for these animals, I cant stand to look at the big cats and the zoo pacing back and forth. What would be the alternative for her animals if she did not care for them?
Colleen
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 3:53 pm:

Not to be a fly in the ointment . . . but don't we do the same thing with horses? Boarding stables are filled to the brim with horses kept in 12x12s or smaller . . . and many that get turned out are only turned into small outdoor paddocks . . .

I'm not saying it's right or healthy . . . just that it's not much different from a woman keeping her cats in pens, and letting them out to roam once in a while. If she feeds them well and waters them and doesn't beat on them . . . and gives them an occasional turnout . . . well, thousands of horses get the same, and some get less than that . . .

just a thought.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 4:50 pm:

Holly is right.
Can it be that we're thinking about these cats and catpeople in the same way some others think about horses and horsepeople?
Yes, horses do not eat people, but these cats don't either. And a horse may escape and cause a road accident. We've all seen some of that, haven't we?
Should the occasional stray horse be the reason for horses banned wherever there's traffic?
And then, of course, however good care we take of our horses, we all know they're not made to live in a stall.

PS: I know my neighbor does not like manure in front of his house. I used to sweep it in the beginning. He knows I don't like his hounds barking at night. He used to tell them to shut up. I don't sweep the manure anymore and the hounds can bark their heads off. I guess we've learned to live next to eachother.

Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 6:26 pm:

pardon me, Christos, but these cats do eat people, or at least people's animals and they are capable of eating people. If they get hungry or feel threatened it wouldn't take much for them to return to their wild state. Several people in California have been eaten by cougers (mtn. lions) and locally a mtn. biker was killed by one a summer ago. Tigers are even bigger than mtn. lions.
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 8:02 pm:

This is obviously a very interesting thread...took forever to get to the bottom! I really appreciate the attitudes of Holly and Christos, bottom line is we all need to be the best neighbor we can be. Yes, some folks' hobbies are more intrusive and dangerous than others, maybe even irresponsible in some people's opinions. But talk of running them out or whatever--especially considering no one got hurt--does feel a bit hypocritical. Granted you wouldn't want something terrible to happen in order to find out that something did need to be changed, but I am sure that this woman's license is provisional, and violations would get it revoked if she is having any recurring issues. If this is the only time she's had an escape in so many years, maybe she's doing things right, if not, then it is perfectly reasonable as a neighbor to find out what the provisions of the license are and if they are being adhered to. If they are not, speaking to the authorities is the responsible thing to do.

I too, would like to know where these cats would go if kicked out of their home--I live 20 minutes from a rescue dedicated to making a home for victims of certain idiots who think these cats can be a backyard pet (not that it can't be done, but it's very rarely done well). It doesn't work in most cases, and I know that this particular organization has made a huge difference in the lives of these poor creatures. Interestingly, they also have a blind horse (and a couple of sighted ones) on their property who seem to have no trouble with the cougar/cheetah/leopard/bobcat chatter that is so deafening around meal-time.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 9:00 pm:

Big cats are predators . . .

Horses are prey . . . but I bet there have been more human deaths due to horse accidents than due to big cat attacks . . .

I was not speaking to the idea that it is right or beneficial to domesticate big cats . . . but to the feelings of frustration with a woman who seems to have a love for the cats and a desire to domesticate them, and to the feelings of pity for the cats who are penned up when they are created to run free, play, breed, and kill when they are hungry . . . Not unlike the pity some feel when they look at horses penned up or being forced to perform through abusive techniques.

That's all.
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Thursday, Mar 3, 2005 - 9:35 am:

Great points made about the parellel between how horses and big cats are kept and even many dogs for that matter. And yes tigers have been known to kill and eat humans, but does anyone remember Jeffery Dahmer? Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.
Colleen
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Mar 3, 2005 - 1:10 pm:

Well, Sara, yes, these cats will eat people if they get out of the property unnoticed for a few hours and they will attack if cornered.
But as this thread progresses, it seems that this lady takes all measures necessary to prevent that from happening, and successfully so, for several years.
So I think we can safely say that these cats will not eat people.
That is not to say I do not sympathise with Beth's feelings. I'd be honestly uneasy if big cats were in my neighbourhood and I'd be very frustrated to find that out right after I've paid all my savings for a new home.
But look, this eccentric neighbour has proved rather responsible and she seems to be a horseperson too, may be a very nice one.
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