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Discussion on More "forward" needed for collection...
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 25, 2007 - 8:22 pm:
Okay, holiday break is over! All you experts please weigh in on your opinions for me here.
Cleo, my four year old, is a pleasure to ride in most aspects. Soft, brave, consistently responsive to everything BUT the forward cue! By that I mean, she will sidepass, do turns on the forehand and rear. Supple with the reins, but she's LAZY.
I am trying to get her collected at the canter. She canters "strung out" willingly both under saddle and on the lunge, but if I even half-halt to try to gather her up a bit, she breaks to the trot. Almost feels like she is quitting under me and eager to slow down. Any rein pressure or seat signal is taken as a stop sign more than a "get ready" signal!
I realize that to get some collection I need to get her in front of my leg, but I just can't seem to get enough energy out of her at the canter. A crop doesn't help (too much imprinting as a foal? she couldn't care less if you crack her with one). We are just getting started with this, and I'm sure it isn't a soundness issue. She is a bit opinionated and I just think she's not crazy about putting that much energy into this.
No problem with other gaits. In fact, she will almost piaffe at the trot! Am I just expecting too much at this stage? I don't want to rush her, but I feel like we should be making some progress.
She was ridden consistently five days a week for an hour or two at a time starting last March until the heat of the summer, probably early July, then again starting mid August through now. Most of this was just goofing around, and a little conditioning. Not too serious training. I mostly ride on trails, but will use pasture for training like this, i.e. circles and lungeing, and such. Canter work has just started in the past couple of weeks.
Any thoughts or suggestions on getting a little more energy to the half-halts?
Thanks!
Erika
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 25, 2007 - 10:47 pm:
Erika, yes i think you are asking to much of your 4 year old.. Collected canter is very hard work for any horse..
''' She was ridden consistently five days a week for an hour or two at a time starting last March until the heat of the summer, probably early July, then again starting mid August through now. Most of this was just goofing around, and a little conditioning. Not too serious training. I mostly ride on trails, but will use pasture for training like this, i.e. circles and lungeing, and such. Canter work has just started in the past couple of weeks. '''
Yikes that is a lot of riding for a young horse, but were you conditioning your horse for anything other then endurance riding.. ?
It took me all summer this year to get my mare to have a ''balanced'' canter, and this is not collected yet.. We work for maybe an hour and we do a ton of transitions within the gait and also outside the gaits.. like Trot/ Walk / walk /trot etc.. When cantering i never ask for her to hold it very long , sometimes not a complete 20 meter circle..
This all takes correct time in the saddle and a lot of muscling for your horse.. Of course i did not ask what kind of horse you are riding.. but the taller the harder i have found..
good luck.. don't get discouraged.. it will come
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 25, 2007 - 11:57 pm:
Hi Erika,
Yeah, wow, collection seems too soon.
Seems to me that you will want to focus on getting consistent rhythm in trot, and then help her balance (not collect) in her transitions. Ride lots of transitions. I am echoing Ann. 
If you are studying dressage, refresh your understanding of the training pyramid, remembering that the horse must develop her strength, trust, willingness and strength in order to move up.
My 4 year old mare is having a heck of a lot of fun working bulls right now, and we are having to pick fur out of her teeth when they get out of line. Young horses need to have fun with humans or they get sour. There is plenty of time for 20 meter circles.
Good luck-- slow down and have fun with her.
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Member:
mientjie
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 12:16 am:
Erika, I too think collection is too soon. My mare, a clydesdale cross, only recently started collecting. She has just turned 6, I was really careful to not overdo the riding in a arena and longing. We had lots of fun just going on outrides, walking over poles ect. The collection will come naturally when she's ready.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 3:57 am:
Well, if she is a bit lazy you have a chance it will not come without firm asking. I do agree she is young but ofcourse the one type of horse is much sooner able to do a bit of collected work then the other.
If you think she can handle it and you've got the problems because you yourself cant give the aids adequately, I normally get them on a double lunge and start making a lot of transitions to a 'little' canter. Do remember this is very fatigueing and she really is very young.
Jos
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 7:57 am:
Hi Erika,
I gotta agree with everyone else: your mare is a bit young for collected canter. I would work on getting her very responsive to your leg (yes, transitions, transitions, transitions...). Nothing else will correctly come until she is forward and straight, which is appropriate work for a young horse.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 8:19 am:
Thanks you guys! I'm afraid I gave the impression that we are working much harder than we are, though. As I said, the hour or so on the trails is really mostly walking and trotting--just having fun and seeing the sights.
When I mentioned the pasture for circles, etc., I meant that it is available if that was how you recommended training. I really prefer not to tear up the turf...
I'm glad to hear that you all think it is too much to ask! My gut was telling me that too. Sometimes we just need confirmation, huh?
I guess at this point though, my question is more "how to get her in front of my leg" better, rather than how to collect. Sounds like lots of transitions are the prescription, huh? As I said, I've done very little cantering with her, so most of our transitions have been walk/trot.
Oh, yeah, Ann, she is the Friesian/Saddlebred cross. 15.2 hands measured.
Thanks for taking the time to post everyone!
Erika
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 8:21 am:
Oh, yeah, then how does one overcome that feeling of being on an out of control train when cantering without collection?
Can be a bit scarey on the trails! (lots of deer, bikes, etc.--not scarey but sometimes sudden) Should all early canter work be in a controlled area? I ride alone 90% of the time!
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 8:42 am:
Erika....I agree with Jos every horse is different so if you think she is ready go for it. The young horse tests ridden by the best horses in the world are ridden on horses not much older so to ride a young horse test at 5 or 6 the training must have started at a young age. You are very experienced so if you feel she is ready than go for it.
As for the training scale we have trained with coaches who believe unless you have Rhythm you are never going to get any of the following components of the training scale so we were stuck in a rut...but either we at our barn are an oddity....and with many many many medaled riders all the way through Grand Prix I doubt that...but my coach believes that they all work in conjunction like a well oiled machine and if your horse is unable to perform one area of the six components of the scale working on others will enable areas of weakness and trust me its working. For instance there are days we use impulsion to get better rhythm etc. If we waited until each of the former aspects were perfect we would never get anywhere...at least on my horse. And the proof is in the fact that one year and two months ago we were riding training level and now we are riding second level with third sometimes fourth level collection.
So all I can say is don't get pigeon holed into thinking you have to get each step into the scale perfect before you can move on. Each animal, each breed is different. The FEI horse I ride for lessons once a week has beautiful collection and yet even he needs us to work on impulsion to get better rhythm when we begin our rides as he is a bit of an older gentleman.
But I know what you mean for the longest time when working on collection even the slightest half halt at times with my seat and my horse breaks to the trot so I knew I was asking for the collection than once I got it I must have been giving my aides away and since it's hard work he is taking that as a cue to stop working...and he even did that some days with a his 2X Rolex successful training rider on him. So we just keep plugging away, it will eventually come. Right now our focus is going from the mediums to the collected canters. We initially tried this only on 20 meter and after medium he was apprehensive to collect but now we do the mediums down the long side then come in on a 20 meter for the collections then back into the mediums down the long side. It is working.
Remember it's all a training process and you have to start somewhere...every one you speak with is going to have a different view. Take a little bit of what each has to offer and do what works best for you.
Good luck!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 8:46 am:
Hi Erika, I ride alone on trail also. When I canter I let them "string out" as you say. as long as they are balanced and paying attention to your cues you should be in control...(as much as possible with scary things anyway) .
I have been working on getting Hank round again, when we are on trail on a straight shot we will canter and I try to get a couple "collected steps" reward and release and continue "strung out" he is getting better every ride.
He can throw me much better spooks when collected and working off the hind quarters, then when relaxed and moseying along.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 9:51 am:
Hi Erika,
Oho I am familiar with that feeling: "my baby thinks (s)he's a train." Solving that doesn't require collection.
When I ride something cross country that gets strung out, I try to do a couple of things:
1) Have a plan for that down transition. Horses have some natural pulling-up moments-- tops of hills, turns, places where the visual effect makes a transition. So for a while, don't ask for up until you have a plan for down. It's easy to go to your hand when a horse does that sprawling scramble thing. Make sure that you are teaching her to go from your seat, because that is the ultimate cure for the behavior. Use a tree if you have to: ride towards it, and give the down transition with your seat until she realizes that she must listen (hand is a last resort, but watch out for that tree!).
2) If you're 'riding the oats' keep it at a trot and give her something to do (got some small logs to jump?)
3) Give her problems to solve that naturally bring her hind end under-- herding something, doubling back, scavenger hunts. I find that they more naturally use that butt when they are focused on solving some other problem, rather than just arguing with a rider.
I agree with Corinne that people get stuck trying to perfect the scale, but there are far more horses "pulled into a frame" too early than too late. If she's sprawling in the canter, she isn't educated or balanced enough to collect it. But that isn't an excuse for wild unbalance either. She needs to obey your seat, and that doesn't require collection (thank goodness).
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 9:53 am:
Freisians are not known for a great canter and can have weak stifles, I am not sure about the Saddlebred.. You are working with a horse that i will 'assume' has a very high neck set.. This might be a little bit of a training problem in getting the horse to lengthen his neck and lift his back up.. It can be done , and when it is It is a beautiful picture!~ So again take it slowly a few ''1/2 steps'' at a time.. Strength will be what you are aiming for now..
As far as the young horse championships, yes they are asked for collected canter at 4-5 years old.. Most tho are riden with what i call a auction rider, a very strong rider that can actually hold a horse together.. thus not really teaching the horse self carriage.. It can be ridden very nicely and pretty.. but am betting that the average rider won't be able to get that out of that horse very easily..
Just take your time and enjoy.. I envy that you are able to all that trail training.. I don't have that option thus my work is arena work..
Corrine is very correct, don't get stuck on one thing only.. BUT in order to advance and have the horse correct you must have the training scale in place or there will be holes in your training and they DO come back out to haunt you..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 10:35 am:
Erika, I like the following for getting my horse in front of my leg on her lazy days (she too doesn't mind the whip very much and takes it pretty much in stride, but this seems to wake her up a bit):
Riding on a large circle at trot, give her a nudge with your leg for a more forward pace. If no response, from the hip, lift off your entire leg and kick (not a yeehaw! type of kick but by picking your leg up off the horse and then giving a sharp squeeze, you are likely to get her attention) and then tickle with the whip right behind your leg. These 3 cues need to be almost instant one after the other. Repeat each quarter of the circle, at first. The horse will likely pick up the pace and then fall back to the pace she wants to go, but by repeating at each quarter of the circle, you are saying, "I want THIS pace and you are to keep it up until I say otherwise". Gradually, you will be able to reduce the frequency and "loudness" of the aids until you just have to "whisper" with a nudge of the leg. When she responds, make sure to give her a pat on the neck or tell her she's a good girl.
Do at walk, trot and canter until she's really listening both for more forward and listening to you asking her to come back with less forward. Eventually, she will realize that when you say go, you mean it. You may need to remind her occassionally, but I think you will find that she is much more consistent in being in front of your leg.
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Member:
teddyj1
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 3:19 pm:
Erika,
some times a lazy, or young horse will start off better when your off their backs at the canter.
Try getting into a half seat, and asking for your departs, then ask for some short hand-gallop to free the back, and get the motor running, then you can slowly and lightly sit down again.
I strongly agree with every one else however, that a collected canter from most 4 year old, large, or warmblood types is too soon.
Get the horse sharp with tons of transitions and I think you'll see a very fast improvement with all gaits, as the horse's hind end gets stronger, the horse will become more responsive to the lightest aids.
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 3:50 pm:
Erika ... sometimes the problem comes from too much of the work being done in a controlled area. I try to do first canter work in arena area, but so many times the horse just isn't comfortable in the arena. I use the trail rides to work on a lot of transitions when in open spaces. It can be a little scary if you haven't gained the necessary control before going out.
I find with a lot of horses that seem lazy, that when I get them out of the arena and let them know we are having fun as opposed to "working" all the time, they accept the canter and lose the "attitude". I don't worry much about where we are going, only in trying to maintain the gait for a reasonable period. It gives them a chance to settle in and find themselves, with you on their back without having to worry about going too fast to negotiate the upcoming turn. When I return to the arena work, I usually find a much more cooperative horse.
I prefer the "lazy" horse over the 4 year old quarter horse gelding I am working now that knows walk .. and flat out run .. and nothing in between. He is a barrel horse prospect, and if the barrels don't get in the way, he should be pretty fast.
That said however, with a 4 year old, try not to over do it.
DT
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 4:29 pm:
Erika,
Agree with everyone else here. I ride alone too, and have my small arena, dirt trails, gravel road (with idiots driving way too fast) and sometimes a dirt field in spring and fall, when there are no crops planted. I find it's easier to go down the middle of the road, or in the biggest field I can find, ask for a little bit of canter and hang on! I will hold on to the horn with one hand, and be ready for a one rein stop with the other.
Graceful? Professional looking? Heck no! But most times a youngster just needs to get used to you on their back and them cantering. In a big field, I can gradually slow it down, and start light contact and all, but it's baby baby steps. If you've got lightness at the trot like you say, that is wonderful I think. One day when you least expect it, you'll be doing a nice canter with control and lightness too; don't rush it and end up with a P.O.'d horse, and you frustrated!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 8:21 pm:
and as discussed in an earlier thread, posting the canter is an awesome way to introduce the idea of rhythm and balance! Just rise to allow the inside hind forward, and only brush the saddle on the "down" beat.....
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 9:52 am:
Great stuff here, everyone! Lots to contemplate, thanks.
So, we all agree that a real collected canter is too much for her right now...(Her mother, the Saddlebred half, came to me as a young five year old with the most beautiful collected canter. But Cleo is built a little more like her dad). Cleo rounds up beautifully at the trot, so I guess I thought she was ready for more.
We will work on trot/canter transitions to see if that gives her a little more ooomph! I confess, I've been riding bareback a lot out of laziness for all the tacking up, and that downward transition Cleo gives me from the canter to a fast trot can just about bounce me to the treetops! Guess a saddle is in order for this period of training. Get me off her back a bit. No doubt that will help with the feeling of loosey-goosey as we canter strung out, too. (One day after a liberal spraying with Show Sheen I realized how slippery she was, even her mane couldn't give me a grip--that was a fun ride!)
Off topic, but I think I am getting known around here as the crazy lady with the bitless, barefoot, bareback horses. But I always have my helmet on!!
So...when WOULD one start a modicum of collection on a horse?
Thanks again,
Erika
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 10:14 am:
Erika, glad you are wearing your helmet.. are you wearing long pants while riding too?
I started asking for a collected canter after we had a balanced canter and one that she could hold for a few circles.. Never asked for it often and for any length of time.. This can only happen when your horse is fully responsive of your aides.. I will go from a med. canter to asking for a couple of strides in collection back to med. What I want is a reaction of some kind, whether it is collected or just slowed down I WANT A REACTION.. Soon it will all come together.. Nothing is done over night, and sometimes with some horses that are not 'naturally balanced' it can take a summer!~
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 10:19 am:
Oh Ann, I do wear pants! Although one time a friend's horse got loose from his trailer tie. I spotted him from my car and rode him home in a miniskirt and high heels!
(I guess the neighbors are right--I am the "crazy lady"!)
Thanks for the tips.
Erika
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 - 8:06 pm:
So here it is a year later and I look back at this thread to see how far Cleo and I have come!
We do have a canter. Not a very collected one, but at least its the three-beat kind, not a gallop that she falls into.
Upon rereading the above, I think I misconstrued what I was looking for. I said "collected canter" and what I actually meant was canter, period. I wasn't looking for that canter in place sort of thing.
I know that cantering is not a normal gate, a horse trots until it isn't energy efficient and then he will gallop. What I was trying to get was an actual canter instead of that strung-out four-beat gallop.
That said, we have come a long way. Cleo gives me a nice round canter in a controlled area, still speeds up on a straightaway, but she's improving. Still don't have a canter depart from a walk, but she takes the correct leads and stays round. Lots of half-halts at the trot first help a lot.
Any further tips to continue to improve? At what point is some collection advisable? Any clues to get a better "ooomph" in order to begin walk-canter departs?
You've all been so helpful and I appreciate everyone's input.
Erika
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2008 - 10:50 pm:
Erika sounds like you have had success!~ 
So now maybe start some shallow serpentines at the canter.. this is where you come out of the short side of the arena and make almost a 1/2 circle to the middle of the arena then come back to the long side right before the short side of the arena * egads does that make sense?* To start I would not go to far off the rail till she can find her balance,, as she does come in further off the rail and back.. This is a great exercise to improve balance and to start her thinking collection..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 - 8:52 am:
Ann,
I understand the logic of what you advise is to have the horse rate her own speed, right? I worry about too much rein in the slowing. I know "crank and spank" isn't what I want. So I assume that anticipating the turns will cause Cleo to slow herself, is that correct?
But does this involve flying changes? That's another of my mystery moves! Never had a horse change from back to front. I usually get a change in front, cross-canter, then on the straightaway, change behind. Or worse, change back to original lead in front ! Do I just expect that she knows where to put her feet when we change directions? (Remember, this is the one who can plow through any cavaletti! Hee hee!)
Erika
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 - 9:12 am:
Erika actually your mare could speed up while trying to hold the canter and change bend at the same time..or will try to break into a trot.. rarely will they try to lead change unless been ridden as a jumper/ hunter then the change of bend means swap leads..
Try to keep your horse at a pace that is comfortable for both of you and one that you can keep going on.. sit deep trying to help your horse change his bend without speeding up or troting .. It can be hard on both horse and rider in the beginning but so worth it in the end.. You can start this at the trot and get a true bend at the trot and both can get use to the pattern .. LOTS OF 1/2 HALTS
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 - 10:25 am:
Sorry Ann, I'm still not clear on the pattern. Is it like looping and continuing on in the same direction of the ring, or a true serpentine with alternating changes of direction?
If it's the latter, should she go ahead and counter-canter on the off turns if she doesn't change by herself?
Sorry, I'm a little confused. Do you mind telling me again in more detail? Say we are starting counter-clockwise in the arena. First turn to the left onto the longer wall. Are we reversing direction; or completing the circle to continue on the long wall in the same direction, looping again as we get further along?
Thanks!
Erika
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 - 10:37 am:
I had a feeling i was not being clear.. NO you don't change direction.. you just come off the track on the long side to 1/4 line in the beginning then back to the track going in the same direction as started.. as you and she become more balanced in this change of bend you make it harder by coming off the rail and riding thru X center of arena then back to the rail again still going in the same direction.. This takes balance on your part as well as the horses.. This will develop a stronger canter so that you can get a true collected canter when ready..
The counter canter is the next step!~ Right lead tracking left.. but not till you can get a nice balanced serpentine..
does this help.. ?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 - 10:43 am:
does this help? they are small ride in the same direction, notice the change of bend..??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2008 - 11:17 am:
Okay, thanks, I think I've got it. Now to put it into effect in my less than rectangular riding area!
Erika
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 3:08 pm:
Hmmmm I can see the advantage to using serpentines, but tbh, as I am starting canter myself again, serpentines are a bit advanced if other parts are not yet in place. Just my thoughts here having attempted to ride this myself.
I would ask, how is your horse with half-halts? How is your horse with shifting weight and carrying? what I mean is can you ask for more weight to be carried behind without complete loss of impulsion (energy)?
To begin collection at any gait it's speed up the back end slow up the front end. or vice versa, slow up the front end while not allowing a slowing of the back end. Step one is that a half halt must "come through". The horse should be able to shift a bit more weight onto the rear even if momentarily to facilitate the half halt coming through enough to even think about collecting a bit. If this makes any sense??
Ok, so you may not want to have the horse careen around and think about stretching into a gallop, in which case working on a circle should help, even if you move that 20m (or larger even) into a corner to help. I would play with speed within the gait first at walk and trot, confirm you can lengthen stride, shorten stride without tempo change in those two first, then you should be able to take that into canter as well. Light half halting should be asking the horse to rebalance, you can ask for more weight shift behind, and it is very much a feel. Half halting lightly (otherwise you get trot) should start to shorten stride, you should feel the "collection" beginning to happen underneath you, just as you do in a walk and a trot.
Just me, I wouldn't be asking a horse to collect more in canter until they can do so within walk and trot well enough. Not high collection mind you, as we're talking beginning stages here, correct?
Yes serpentines would help, but then you have bend change, and lead changes unless the horse can continue in counter canter.... why add to the difficulty if you don't need to? Always keep it simple in the beginning. What does the horse do if you do X? and go from there. If you can even use the short side of an arena to help shorten stride a bit and then allow the horse to lengthen again when going down the long side... it's a beginning.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 3:19 pm:
I will add (sorry forgot before hitting post) that I wouldn't ask for too much collection within canter if she cannot yet go from walk to canter.
Can she do a canter depart on the longe from walk?
One piece that can often help a horse to rebalance, put a bit more weight to the rear allowing for a nice depart to canter out of walk is to first back up. Or ride a 10m circle and shoulder in, then try asking for canter from walk. Lateral work first to obtain suppleness especially from behind, then ask.
Beyond this stuff, transitions, transitions, transitions. Begin on longe, carry to under saddle. Halt walk; walk trot walk; trot canter trot; walk trot canter trot; etc.
And too initially you may have to exaggerate your ask until she gets the idea. Often we tend to push them up to canter from trot and they basically just go faster until they canter. So if you do not have clean departs from trot you probably won't from walk either. It does take more backend strength to do a canter depart from walk.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 3:45 pm:
Yes, Terrie, she is good with lengthening and shortening the walk and trot. We had that going pretty well a year ago. I do believe she is ready for some canter collection--no, not the real lofty kind, but she does show signs of being able to do that. My biggest problem is impulsion from what I believe is a little bit of laziness.
I rode on a hunter pace yesterday and my partner's horse has the kind of comfortable easy canter I am looking for. Since Cleo is a little more "revved up" on the paces, she actually was pretty good about departing and maintaining the canter until she tired a bit. At home, working alone it is a little harder to get that up-front feeling and therefore harder to get the nice canter I'm looking for. We are making lots of progress though. I sometimes can get a canter depart from a walk. The main thing is getting her enough in front of my leg to get "into the bridle". It's nice that she's calm and bomb-proof, but I am so used to riding very forward horses and I'm not sure how to handle the gas pedal on this one!
Actually, when I misunderstood Ann's directions I started looping back in a circle when Cleo would get strung out, and that would help a little. So Ann, even though I got it wrong, it actually helped!Ha ha!
I do appreciate all the input, and I like hearing different methods of getting there. Cleo has the potential to be a really good horse as long as I can adjust to what motivates her better.
One good thing about a less forward horse--at least I don't have to fight her to slow down when she's galloping in a crowd. Never had one like that! I'm usually the one sailing past the field master in the hunt, apologizing. It was so relaxing to let Cleo just canter along and be cool about being in the middle of the gang.
Erika
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2008 - 8:26 pm:
Hi Erika,
So it sounds like your goal isn't yet collection in canter, but forward, in front of your leg, with an uphill balance. Do I have that right?
The suggestions above are good in their place, but I worry that they may cause your horse to suck back a bit at this stage. If you find that happening, maybe read on.
I would be inclined to try two different exercises on a large circle. The first would be to canter over ground rails (initially set one at 12 o'clock, and then add them at 6 o'clock and maybe eventually also at 3 and 9).
For the next exercise, remove the rails. Ride ten strides of canter to ten strides of trot to ten strides of canter; rinse and repeat. Count your strides. As she learns the exercise, she should start to rock herself back to anticipate the transitions, which will help improve both the trot and the canter, and will develop the strength and balance she needs.
I'd also be inclined to gallop her out in the open on her own, just to get that old joy of movement confirmed.
Let us know what works and how she comes along!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 8:14 am:
Hi Elizabeth. Yes, that's it exactly! I'm looking to get her in front of my leg so that eventually we can collect. I agree that the slow down part is counterproductive without the impulsion from behind.
I'm just not as good with explaining myself as I am at blurting out "funny" stuff, I guess.!
Sounds like an interesting plan and I can't wait to try it. I saw you posted that on someone elses thread a while ago and I mean to put it into operation but forgot!
How wide of spokes would you make the circle?
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 8:58 am:
Hi Erika,
Initially I'd make the circle for ground rails ginormous-- that will make it the most forgiving of her stride length etc.. Don't know how big your working space is, but an inside diameter (from the pointing inwards tip of one "spoke" to the pointing inwards tip of the one across the way) of 30m would be ginormous to me.
Of course, you can make the circle bigger or smaller by riding more towards the center or further out on the rails-- she'll probably make suggestions based on her length of stride. I wouldn't move the rails inward until you can really feel her going. We don't want to shorten her stride.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 12:01 pm:
Great suggestions Elizabeth. Fab info really.
Erika, do you ever feel a canter within her walk? What I mean is do you achieve a walk where you can feel that anything asked she can easily give? If you can get to this place, you have her well on the aids. You should be able to feel the same in trot and eventually in canter.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2008 - 1:02 pm:
This has been a terrific discussion and you all have given me a few more tools to use on my mare. I tried Ann's serpantine suggestion last night and it was very tough to keep my mare balanced and to prevent her from tossing in flying changes...I think doing something unexpected combined with a smallish indoor arena made it more difficult than it had to be. But, that said, I think she really enjoyed something different, she really started paying attention and both the trot work and canter work improved after trying it in both directions.
I'm looking forward to working on some of the other suggestions as well.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008 - 8:48 am:
Hmmm, Terrie, I think on the way home on the trail alone while her mother screams to her, Cleo has the most impulsion and would be happy to make a quick , clean canter depart.LOL!
So, my interpretation of all this is work on the forward part still. Which is really what my original question was. We now have lots of things to try. I'll update again soon on our progress.
thanks,
Erika
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