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  Discussion on Possible back problem?
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New Member:
kris812

Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 10:28 pm:

About 3 weeks ago, I bought a fantastic 4 year old paint gelding -- great mover, sweet personality, and calm. The previous trainer has trained him mainly through the mouth and not with a whole lot of leg signals. As a consequence, his topline wasn't filled out very well when I got him, but it has improved greatly in the short time I've had him. I have already figured out the areas that he is stiff and resistant in, including his right shoulder, and I had also been working on simply building up his back.

However, one big thing I've noticed: when I back him up, after about four or five steps, he will simply stop and is near to impossible to get backing again. He is taught to back with a squeeze but he needs a little reinforcement with my hands. However, when he starts to tighten up and stops he puts ALL of his weight on the bit. I've tried tons of different exercises just to get a couple backing steps where he is on the bit, but to no avail. He stops SO hard (and he's super sweet when I ride him) that it just makes me wonder. He stops wayyy parked out..front legs in front of him and back legs behind him with his back sagging. I'm kind of stumped..I'm going to have a chiropractor come out and adjust him..originally I was curious about his shoulder, but now I'm wondering about his back.

However, that is kind of a way for me to rule out anything..I can keep trying different things but I want to make sure that I'm not hurting him. Any insight whether it is a back problem? And if it turns out to be nothing medical, does anyone have suggestions for good exercises to get his back lifted and get him on the bit? Thanks a bunch!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 6:47 am:

Welcome Kristen,
If this is the only problem muscoskeletal pain is an unlikely explanation and I suspect with continued training this issue will resolve. I do wonder from your description if while you are backing if some piece of tack does not shift that might cause discomfort or pinching. Have you tried to back him from the ground?

I do wonder what is the chiropractor going to adjust?
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 7:22 am:

I agree with Dr. O, but would like to add that when a horse of mine BEGAN to have backing problems where none had previously existed, it was one of the first warning signs for DJD. We are managing this situation well, but backward motion is no longer seemingly effortless for the horse. And when he backs out of the trailer he does so slowly, stepping onto the ground with a very wide base.
New Member:
kris812

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 7:58 am:

I have tried backing from the ground and he is just as resistant..He braces against me and doesn't like to lower his head to use his hind end properly. DJD..how do you manage that when it is in the back? Joint supplements?

I was going to have the chiropractor come out and pretty much give him a once over and just feel if there are any problem spots so I know where exactly to target..It was raining yesterday but I'm going to go out and ride him today and see again if I feel any give to my commands or not.

Thanks!
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 3:55 pm:

Hi Kristen,

Have you handled many young horses? The few-steps-back-then-brace routine is very typical of young horses (and many older ones). I have never personally seen it connected to a medical problem, though I suppose it could be. 4 is young and backing up is hard, even for adult horses. I might be inclined to lay off it a bit and focus on age-appropriate forward activities, and come back when he's a bit more mature. Even then, a few steps at a time is probably the way to go for quite a while. Just an opinion.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 5:34 pm:

The DJD was in my horse's hocks and fetlock. I had them injected and he is on Adequan IM injections monthly plus Cosequin. It has been nearly two years since he went lame on me and I had his joints injected. I also found a farrier who put perfect balance into the feet, which took strain off the hocks. Unbalanced feet cause all kinds of wear and tear and difficulties. I agree with the others that your problem is likely due to age and inexperience but want people to be aware of the possibility of DJD in some instances.
New Member:
kris812

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 8:35 pm:

Actually, this gelding is a show gelding..we show on the APHA circuit. He's been working in hunter under saddle classes since he was two. So the reason I'm questioning is because I know that he has had to back up before. He is a pretty trained gelding.

I am actually just selling another show gelding..he's 6 years old and I bought him when he was a verrry green broke 3 year old. Now he works completely off the leg..his first jumps were bareback and bridleless! My little boy. Hehe :]

Thanks a ton for everyone's advice -- I will try to post some updates as to how he is doing. Thanks!
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2007 - 12:19 am:

Hi Kristen,

That much work as a youngster doesn't make him older, though it does increase the chances of unsoundness or sourness. Did you have a lameness eval. as part of the purchase? If this is his only issue, I would still think it likely to be a behavioral issue.

Sounds like you have fun with your horses. This guy sounds like he deserves some! Good luck.
New Member:
kris812

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2007 - 6:50 am:

We did have a lameness evaluation and he was fine..I'm now getting more confident that it is just a behavioral issue like you and others have said.

Yeah, being started that young is very common in this industry but I don't particularly agree with it (especially when they are doing lots of showing) so I'm making sure to take it fairly slow and keep an eye out for anything with him. He's the sweetest horse ever -- he's going to be spoiled! :]

I can't thank everyone enough for your input!
Member:
amara

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2007 - 8:58 am:

Based on your description of how your horse stops (parked out), it sounds typical of a "stuck" horse.. he is both mentally and physically stuck.. backing up properly requires a horse to lower his haunches and raise his front end, and he obviously hasnt figured it out.... you're not asking him for very much yet i assume (i.e. no more than 10 steps or so and no trotting backwards
), so its not like he's going to be tired..even babies with no muscling can back for more than 4-5 steps.. what it sounds like is happening is that he is losing the connection between his front and back end...its a lot more mental than it is physical actually...

when he leads does he walk at whatever pace you set, be it slow or fast? or do you have to encourage him to move with you? does he disengage his hindquarters properly? (inscribing two cocentric circles, with the spine in general alignment, front end never stepping forward and hind leg stepping in front of the other?)
what kind of cues do you use to get him to yield back? both on the ground and in the saddle?...when he does yield backwards does he do it keeping his spine straight? or is he crooked, and if he is crooked, how so?.. how fast do you ask him to yield?..
Member:
shanson

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2007 - 1:39 pm:

I have an older horse who tends to brace at the jaw, poll, and neck. If I don't spend time suppling and relaxing him, he has the issue you describe backing up--both mounted and on the ground. When he's braced, it seems to be physically difficult for him to back up.
New Member:
kris812

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2007 - 9:41 pm:

Your description of him is dead on target, Melissa..his exact problem is that he doesn't lower his haunches.

He walks with me on lead, but it takes SO much work to get him to trot. Flexion tests on him were torture! I do a little bit of Parelli with him, so he is pretty good at disengaging his hindquarters. On the ground, I stand a little bit to the side of his head and back him (I've been teaching him showmanship) and when I'm in the saddle, I squeeze, but he always needs a fair amount of re-enforcement with my hands.

When he backs, he sticks his butt to the right..I feel like he's caught in his front right shoulder (his left lead is his worse one)..within a step or two I will both increase the intensity of my leg on the side he is moving towards and I will use the opposite rein as an aid to that.
Member:
amara

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2007 - 10:48 pm:

when you stand a bit to the side to ask him to yield back i assume you are on his left side?... in a way you are almost telling the horse to swing his hindquarters to the right, away from you... especially if you have done some natural horsemanship with him... you are probably in a similar position to what you use to get him to disengage his hindquarters, even if the "cue" is different...

i stand directly in front of my horses and use only my energy to ask a horse to yield back...if i'm doing any specialized training with the horse and need to stand next to his head to ask him to yield then i am absolutely sure to make sure that no part of my body is turned to the horse...

do you use pressure on his nose or on his chest to ask him to move backwards?...this can lead to a reflexive brace issue, where the horse leans into the pressure... if you need to use physical pressure make sure its intermittant so the horse cant lean into it...

inability to move forward freely and inability to move backwards freely are fairly directly linked.. that's why i was wondering about how he was moving forward...

does he start his yield backwards in a fairly decent position before he falls apart?...i would try to catch it on the first step that he falls apart, and use a disengagement of the hindquarters to get his body together, than ask for a few steps again , till he falls apart again, and so on... i wouldnt do too many cycles of course, and always give plenty of break time for everything to register...and of course, always stop before he falls apart...

if you wait till he falls apart to try to fix him it uses some pretty extreme stuff, which is needless, since you really need to fix it at the moment he starts to lose it.... also, if you can use a round pen or a round area, so much the better, as it encourages the spine to bend a little, which helps to keep him from falling apart.. its not crucial, but every little bit helps...

there are lots of ways to work on this, and this is only one of the methods that i myself use... i start with this.. if a horse turns out to be really really really stuck then i have other methods...

btw, just noticed the last bit of your post, about what you do when you are riding him... i am a little lost by what you mean by using the opposite rein as an aid to the yielding when he starts to fall apart...you should be using the rein on the same side as he is swinging towards...its very hard for a horse to have his head and his butt in the same direction..bring his head a little to the right (use an opening rein so you dont lock up the spine and hindquarters)...use a pulsing leg aid and bring your hip back to encourage him to get his hip back.. if you've got him to where he can disengage under saddle, so much the better...

aackk.. writing a book again.. sorry!...

good luck
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