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Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 12:14 am:

I have 23 days on my 3 1/2 Anglo Arab. I have had her for two years and have done much ground work with her waiting for her to grow up.
Even after so few rides she moves off my leg, flexes into turns, she is starting to respond to my posting speed and adjust her speed.
I have ridden her with her face where she wants it to be with a soft rein ocntact. She responds softly to rein pressure, she will 'follow' her nose and circle, we are working on consistent impulsion, she will flex and walk around her haunch.
So all in all she is doing pretty good.
Now I am trying to get her to give and maintain a more vertical head position, so I have started her in sidereins, at a halt she will stand with good position, not bad at a walk, at a trot she really resists.
Question, do I just keep her going at a trot until she gives? Should she make a full cirlcle before I let her quit? That could be a while.
I already know being Arab she can be very stubborn.
I have used sidereins with other horses and had no problem with them.
Thanks
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 8:02 am:

Lori,

I don't think of Arabs as being stubborn. I think she is just very sensitive like most Arabs and she is being asked too much at this point. It sounds like she is doing great for her age and you have a good concept of what to do under saddle.

In my opinion instead of worrying about the head set with sidereins, work on doing alot of trotting in a straight line. If you can, go out and put on a few miles daily at a trot. This will get her rear end working more, and her back will come up along with her nose coming back a little. I am not a fan of lets get the head vertical ASAP. You need to start at the back of the horse,not the head. As her muscle tone builds and she relaxes at the trot she will come together nicely into the frame you want with her head more vertical. To ask too much too soon gets a hollowed back and a behind the bit horse. Or in some cases, a very angry horse....speaking from experience with one of my Arabs.

I am sure someone else can explain this better than I can, as I am just an average rider of 35 yrs who is still learning.

Angie
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 2:16 pm:

I agree with angie. I would concentrate on getting her good at going straight at all speeds, flexingand stoping. You need great speed control and stoping and horizontal flexion before asking for vertical flexion. Not sure I said that right. I have put atleast 60 days riding on my boys before asking for vertical flexion and I have never used side reins.

Clinton anderson has a good video series about getting control undersaddle? Not sure the exact title.

Arabs are very sensitive make her confident at the begining stages with lots of practice before moving on, to much to soon she will accept what you are asking but will be very resentful.

My arabian i am still going slow with, she is now 4 and we will just now start getting serious about repetition, going straight, speed, flexing side to side, and stoping. Last year was just play.
I know she can handle it but if I introduce stuff to fast she gets nervous. I am riding her in a bosal. She is also going to start learning to pull a buggy just as something to keep up the confidence. I know people that compete do this faster because they are on a time schedule.

I would make sure you atleast have 30 days goood hard saddle time before asking her to flex verticle.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 2:22 pm:

oh to answer your question I start at the walk and hold the horse in a flex until the horse gives and I release I repeat this several times to make sure they get it and then I start holding the flex a little longer keep building then I move to the trot. Make sure you release right away and reward your horse. Make sure she is doing this great at the walk then start the trot it may take a bit but as soon as she gives release, reward, repeat.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 2:40 pm:

my two cents

You need forward motion first and foremost. If she has that on the line now, you could try starting with just one siderein attached, the inside I believe until she's comfortable in it and going FORWARD, then attach the outside rein. She may be trying to figure out what you want...help her.
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 3:15 pm:

Hi Lori

I'm a little unclear - you are not attempting to ride her with sidereins are you? Can you clarify?
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 7:03 pm:

I like Aileen's idea!

Sue just made me think??? Sorry! My mind is having another monday(need more caffine). of course If you are using side reins your not riding. Keep the pressure on as soon as she gives reward her.
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 9:47 pm:

Hey, No, I am not riding her in sidereins.
The biggest reason I have started with the sidereins is because she has come along so well.
Her groundwork is very solid, she has transferred her ground knowledge to the saddle with little difficulty.
She moves off my leg, she even knows that a squeeze with one leg combined with a rein squeeze on the same side means to lower her head.
She knows she is supposed to lower her head, just doesn't keep it there.
I know horses learn at their own speed, I have no desire to push her.
I have some experience with sidereins but not tons.
So, my experience is; after a couple of sessions the horse is giving somewhat consistently and relaxing.
This girl has had four sessions, the last session I let her go longer than I normally would to see if it would make a difference, it did a bit.
I start with no reins, go a few rounds, hook up the reins with just contact at the walk, go a couple rounds, move up a couple holes, etc until she is close to vertical. I hesitate to put her any tighter until she is holding the position better.
Someone at the arena suggested she actually needs to be a bit tighter until she 'gets' it, their reasoning was she is still loose enough she can evade the rein by raising her head so she goes from high to low with a 'give' inbetween.
I have tried to explain carefully but I know sometimes the idea gets lost in the telling.
Oh, her build could make it a bit tougher for her, her neck is short and stout. There is two fingers of room between her jaw and neck.
Thanks for the help
Member:
36541

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 7:13 am:

Hi Lori,
sounds as if the under saddle work is showing you a happy sensitive horse with unlimitied potential. Wait on the sidereins until she has the back strength to handle them - the straight trotting work is a good idea. When I start a baby warmblood in them, I set the inside only for 4-5 times, set it low at the elbow, and only trot with them on, never walk. An assistant at your horse's head can help if the forward idea still won't take. I have on rare occasion ridden in sidereins in the arena to communicate the it is safe to go forward in them, but that is never at the beginning. Does she lunge well without the sidereins? Are you using the lunge on the inside rein, over the head, or a cavesson? Stacy
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 10:26 am:

Lori, I agree with Stacy on waiting until your girl has some more strength.

I want to caution you to be patient with your girl, she had done so very well - so you are obviously doing a great job - just go slow.

I know it's hard when they show you how smart they are, just remember her age, there's bound to be something that doesn't just "click"
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 2:45 pm:

Whoa, Lori !
Sidereins are not a device to break a horse's resistance. The very thought of tightening them until the horse "gives" is entirely wrong. Such practice will not eliminate resistance, it will just transfer it to the back or mutate it into something difficult to define and correct later.
Sidereins serve two purposes.
One is to teach the horse to seek the contact with the bit.
The other one is to make the horse straight in the mouth, ie the contact even.
The first goal is achieved by adjusting the sidereins low in the surgicle and long enough so that the horse has to stretch its back and neck to find a supportive, steady, healthy contact with the bit.
The second goal is achieved by making the sidereins absolutely even, within a centimeter or less. This teaches the horse to work in a circle with correct contact on the outside rein, which makes his body straight and his mouth even.
It is better to lunge from the cavesson when you use sidereins, especially with a green horse. Lungeing from the bit may damage his trust to it.
As the horse finds his balance in the lunge, he will slowly start carrying himself, ie collecting a little, which will make the sidereins go slack. Only then you shorten them a bit, to give him his -by then- favourite contact.
So it is the length of the sidereins that has to be adjusted to the horse's frame and not the horse's frame adjusted to the length of the sidereins.

Christos

PS: Sidereins should be unclipped at walk and halt if you don't want the horse to learn very fast how to go behind the bit.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 3:18 pm:

Ok I just learned something new I just learned the lady that taught me about side reins taugh me wrong....
I admit the error of my learning.

Christos can you explain this in more detail please?
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 3:23 pm:

Sorry, Lori, I hope I didn't insult when questioning whether you were riding in them! Believe it or not, I've actually seen some people do it and it gives me shivers as that is not their purpose and all safety flies right out the window.

As usual, Christos gives excellent advice and that is also how I start my youngsters - in fact I'm going through those very steps with a colt right now.

Although all horses are individuals, it still takes all of them while to develop trust in and seek contact with the bit and so it's crucial to never to put them in a situation where they start to back away by prematurely shortening the sidereins to force a "frame". They need to be able to stretch over the back and reach down into the bit and this only comes from balance, forwardness and space to stretch.

Sounds like you have a super willing horse to work with. Very nice as it makes life so much easier!
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 9:27 pm:

I have followed a program that incorporates a lot of free work, I didn't start to lunge with a line until Jan. Because I have taught her to give to pressure she lunges on a loose line, she will in fact work a circle around me in the rectangle arena without a line on her.
I do lunge her in a full cheek snaffle. I am sure that will raise some eyebrows but like I said I have trained her to give to pressure, she works on a loose line. If she does tighten the line I ask her to come in.
She understands and responds to walk, trot, canter and whoa in both directions.
Stacy, do you mean 4-5 circles? I'm guessing you set at elbow level to encourage a lower head?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 8:28 am:

I'll give it a try, Cheryl. Please note that this is just my personal point of view, and I do not consider myself a Dressage specialist.
Sidereins are used to teach a horse a healthy, even, steady contact. Generally, that means some 0,5-1,5 lb of weight on each rein. I'd say that under 0,5 lbs the horse is hollow (does not accept contact), over 1,5 lbs the horse is leaning on the bit (fights the bit or uses it as a head rest).
To develop a good contact, you must set the horse up so that he finds the bit comfortable and helpful.
In walk his head has to move, so contact with a fixed bit is not comfortable, as his mouth will meet it intermittently and abruptly. This seriously compromises the length of the walk and invites pacing (Pacing: The horse is telling you that what you're doing only works in trot). So you remove the sidereins at walk.
In halt he does not know what to do with the contact, as he does not need a balancing/stabilising aid. He'll most likely start playing with it, soon discovering that he can go behind the bit to DrOp the unnecessary contact. So you remove the sidereins at halt.
On top of the above, walk and halt are rewards for a green horse, not exercises. All restraints/aids should be removed and the horse be allowed to stretch and relax.
Canter on the lunge we will not discuss, as we're talking very green horses.
So, we'll have the horse trot on the lunge. There are two ways to do this: Off the bit or off the cavesson. If you trust that the horse won't be performing any stunts, you can lunge off the bit. Otherwise, a cavesson is much safer and does not harm a horse's trust to the bit if things go wrong.
When you lunge off the bit, the sidereins should be adjusted equal. As the horse bends in the circle the inside rein will go slack, but the tension of the lunge line on the inside ring will make the contact even. This is why the lunge line must never be slack.
When you lunge off the cavesson, the inside rein must be 1/2-1 hole shorter, so to provide an even contact in the horse's mouth. If you make it too short, the hindquarters will be drifting to the outside.
Many people lunge without sidereins or with an inside rein only. I believe this is not correct. The outside rein is very important, as it is the one that creates and controls the bend , but also the outside shoulder and hind leg. Later on, under saddle, your inside leg invites the horse to bend but it is the outside rein that tells him how much.
Lungeing (or turning) without an outside rein invites the horse to bend just his neck, pop the outside shoulder or allow his hindquarters to drift to the outside. It is unfortunately too common to see horses being lunged in a hollow "Renvers" fashion, where the hind hooves print a circle larger than the one printed by the front ones.
The length of the sidereins, now, is fairly easy to adjust. You want them to be barely tight enough so that they don't go slack in trot. You adjust them to the limit of freedom. If you're not sure, slacker is better than tighter.
A horse actually likes the little support he can find by stretching onto a steady bit. It is partly psychological and partly physical, I guess. So, given a chance, he will stretch in search of this support. If the sidereins are too short, he'll find the contact rather confusing and restricting than soothing and supporting, and he'll either fight it by pulling on the reins and leaning on the bit, thus damaging his mouth (his contact mentality, actually, not the mouth itself) or, perhaps even worse, he'll compensate for the unfair restriction by hollowing his neck and his back and stiffening his hindquarters, which leads to soreness and an injured, sour horse.
The positioning of the sidereins on the surcingle is also important. Let's think of a green horse trotting on the lunge with a low head.
If you attach the sidereins high, the horse will receive pressure mainly, if not solely, on the corners of his lips. He can't support himself with the corners of his lips, so he'll try to rid himself of the pressure by pushing the bit with his tongue or bringing the tongue over the bit.
If you attach the sidereins as low as possible, pressure is distributed over tongue and bars, and this is something a horse will find comfortable and use as support. You want the angle formed by the cheekpiece and the sidereins as open as possible. As his schooling progresses, increased engagement of the hindquarters will lift his back, flex his poll and lift his head, to the extend that the angle formed by the cheekpiece and the reins comes at 70 degrees. That's when you can raise the positioning of the sidereins one ring on the surcingle. I prefer, however, to let them low throughout the lungeing training. The only case I'd raise them is if the angle becomes greater than 90 degrees, as that would start putting pressure on the poll and preventing the horse from naturally lifting his head as a result of increased engagement.
About riding with sidereins on, there's nothing wrong with it. Only that you can't use normal reins on top of sidereins, so the rider has to be lunged. Of course, you don't put a saddle, sidereins and a rider on a horse in one go. You give the horse some time to adjust to each new situation.

Whew!
Christos
Member:
Skye

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 9:04 am:

My goodness, what a helpful post, Christos--better than most of the books or chapters I've read! My young one doesn't know it yet, but he thanks you!
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 11:40 am:

Thanks christos! Yes better than reading books. So if the horse is not hollow when lunging the rear prints should be a smaller circle as the front then?

I might ad i live in cow poke land so forgive my ignorance.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 11:59 am:

Cheryl,
The hind hooves should always land exactly in the track of the front ones, unless you purposely work on two tracks.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 12:07 pm:

Ditto above posts.

Christos;

I printed your long and informative post out to put in my barn file under training. Very well explained. Thank you!

Following Christos advice, it would seem that lunging just on the line without sidereins would serve no purpose? And ground driving, with that outside rein for support, would be better? This is advice I have followed for yrs and from Christos post I now have a better understanding of WHY.

But if you don't have steady hands ground driving, then the sidereins on lunge line would seem to be a better idea. And of course whichever you choose working of the cavesson would be best.

Any additional comments?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 1:38 pm:

Good point, Angie.
Working with just a line or a single rein for extra security is good exercise as far as the circle is large enough. In that case, it is better if the line is slack, so that you don't drive the hindquarters out so much.
But that does not add much to the horse's education, it is not schooling. It will improve the horse's self carriage over time, but not more than chasing him around the paddock would.
I have the feeling that ground driving "hardens" a horse's mouth. I hear driving does that in general, but I have zero experience so I can't tell.
Member:
Gillef

Posted on Saturday, Mar 26, 2005 - 3:49 pm:

Christos, your explanation is the clearest and most concise I have seen in 20 years!! Thank You. Only last week I attended a "demonstration" of lunging organised by our local British Horse Society group. I only went for the social aspect but I left more confused than I had been before and worried about the effect it would have on the predominantly younger than me audience (most audiences seem to be younger than my friends and me these days!!!)
Quite a lot of talk concerned the costruction of the side reins. It was mooted that for preference the demonstrator would choose solid leather reins over those with rubber "doughnuts" and least preferred would be those with elastic inserts.
I would love to hear your preference and reasoning on this aspect-Please.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, Mar 26, 2005 - 5:50 pm:

It is actually very simple, Gillian.
Since the horse's head is very steady in trot, practically immobile, there's no need for elasticity in the sidereins. The horse is not uncomfortable.
Doughnuts were developed for canter work on the lunge. But I find correct canter on the lunge so difficult for horse and trainer alike that I suggest we leave it for the great masters, along with the doughnuts.
Elastic inserts are not a good idea. If you adjust them so they're not stretched at working length, the contact they provide is insufficient and when the horse tries to find a bit of support they simply stretch. If you adjust them stretched at working length, the horse is trapped. He can't find steady support by stretching to the bit or relief by nodding inwards. Later, under saddle, the horse will not nod "yes" to your hands, because he won't know there's relief inwards. He will nod "no" as a result of the increased pressure, and he'll not be to blame.
Member:
Gillef

Posted on Sunday, Mar 27, 2005 - 7:53 am:

Thank you again. No wonder I felt confused-same recommendation but for totally different "reasons".
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Mar 27, 2005 - 8:20 am:

I guess it depends why you lunge in the first place. I think there are several viable reasons to lunge without sidereins.
Some lunge to take the 'edge' off before the horse is ridden, to get a young horse accustomed to the feel of a tightened girth before the first ride.
Personally, I lunge for several reasons. When I lunge any horse I want them responding to pressure so lungeing them doesn't become an exercise in centrifical force. If I am working an older horse I haven't started I will use a cavesson.
Lunging is an execellent way to introduce tack, or new situations(like an arena with snow sliding off the roof every 5 min)yikes! I like to add a dangling rag or plastic bag from the stirrup, a rope under the tail, anything I can think of, this is not to be mean but to produce a safe horse. When a horse learns that weird and scary things can happen and he can stay calm without dying you have a much safer horse.
Case in point, someone who has a very well trained jumper, won high points etc, tried to hand off her vest, her horse spooked(jumped violently)she came off, he took off spooked even more by her coming off. She had minor injuries and he nearly caused another wreck by running into another horse warming up.
I don't mean to say my horse will never jump or spook; the goal is that when startled the horse may jump but not feel the need to unload, bolt, rear, backfire or whatever and be willing to trust the rider and calm down.
Another reason to lunge and to have previously taught a horse to lunge is exercise. While I prefer ponying because I think a straight line is easier on the horse sometimes it just isn't possible.
If you are pressed for time or ill or perhaps the horse is a bit off(I know a circle is not the best way to look for lameness)a few minutes on a lunge line can be great; it can be very useful for a rider to be lunged on their own horse, orafter a layoff to remind the horse of what he knows, some legging up( I am not advocating complete conditioning) even to learn transitions.
Not all riders want their horse traveling in a frame but the horse still needs to learn to change gaits smoothly. If a horse learns on a line that he can change gaits without a rider unintentionally unbalanceing or bumping his mouth this can prevent problems from starting. conversely it can be used to correct an issue.
I am sure other people have other reasons as well to lunge.
As far as sidereins go it seems different trainers do have personal views.
I have opted to go for a looser siderein, but concerning the inside rein a bit shorter or of the same length as the outside I have heard convincing arguements for both methods; I suppose I will have to make a choice.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, Mar 27, 2005 - 12:29 pm:

Yes, Lori, you may lunge for one of a thousand reasons, but keep in mind that this early work builds a very solid base for the future. It is very difficult to modify it's results later on.
Longeing with just a line (or not even a line) is just driving the horse around in a circle, crooked and imbalanced. Though good exercise, that's a bad foundation for his future education. Believe me, I'm not just crying wolf, you'll sweat to fix this later, whatever your discipline.

Christos

PS: Compare ex-racehorses that have been daily lunged in this fashion for exercise to the ones that have been walked or ridden. You'll see a remarkable difference.
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