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  Discussion on Slow off leg in arena
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Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 20, 2005 - 11:37 am:

Hi, I havent posted in ages as my horse has been wonderful. Out on trails or in competion or any out door activity he is excellent. With the only problem is getting him to relax as he just is so excited he wants go. I have over the last few months been started doing dressage training. He knows all the beginner movements wonderfuly as we do them out on the trails every day. In the arena he becomes slow off my leg and I cant keep his attention . I know how to teach him to become hot off your leg. (He is outside.) He is am arab and is extremily bored with the whole process. He ignores the crop, my leg. I am not used to this. I only do the training once a week, so I am not over doing it with him. How do I get the energy in the arena that I get out on the trails. Out side I barely squeeze once and he is moving forward.Sugestions please.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Apr 21, 2005 - 10:14 am:

There are two ways, Katrina.
One is sharper spurs and a stiffer crop.
The other way is to motivate him, to give him a reason to perform well.
The best reward for a horse is when you get off his back, so you need to put an end to the lesson when he performs his exercise well.
Now this must be very simple in the beginning. You ask for one thing only and when he performs it you must turn him out or return to his box to munch on some oats. This builds work ethics, the horse has a reason to try his best.
Once he gets the idea that he'll be done when he performs what you ask, you can ask for two things and so on, keeping in mind that the sessions need to be as short as possible.
I believe it is better to train twice a day for half an hour than once for a full hour. Please note that in a half hour session the actual exercise is ten minutes, the rest is warm up and cooling off. That, again, for a seasoned dressage horse.
3-5 minutes of actual dressage is plenty, I think, for a young horse. I believe that if you can't make a step up in five minutes it means either that previous work is not solid or that you need a different approach for that particular exercise. Going on for more than 5 minutes with something the horse does not understand will, at best, bore him dead.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Thursday, Apr 21, 2005 - 8:43 pm:

Hi Christos, I was hoping you would give your advice.
I did used a crop to get him hot off my leg in the fields where I also do basic dressage. and in a small outdoor arena.Works great. I have done his training for only for short periods as you suggest over the past few years. That has worked wonderfuly. He just turned 8 (Wow how time flys)and has the physical strength and knowledge to do a little more (I thought). The problems started when I started working with a trainer and she only takes 1 hour sessions, most is warming and cooling off. It really is not strenuous, However either this is too much for him or he is just saying I dont like it , its boring or he needs a little more encouragment,(spurs). She does have me keep I little heavier contact which I know he dissaproves of. He like light contact. He does give to the bit wonderfuly, My rewards are much more noticable than the little reward I am aloud in his dressage training. The first 2 years of training were more a john lyons type. He is extremily smart and has taught me way more than I can ever teach him. I explained to my instructor that he is bored and she has changed it to no more than 5 minutes per exersise. He is still acting like this is the most boring thing in the world. No spark. Should I discontinue the hour lessons and keep doing as I was? I do like having someone critique my riding. Or should I try the spurs. I am thinking the spurs as I know my horse pretty well and its a gut feeling that he doesnt like it much and wants to see how I react to it. I dont want him to think He is the boss , but then again he has tought me too much to ignore him. I dont think we are ever going to do upper level. I just want my horse to be the best he can be.Dressage exersises make him so supple and pleasant to ride. I love learning to be a better rider and have my horse be the best he can be. Thoughts.
Katrina
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Thursday, Apr 21, 2005 - 9:12 pm:

Hi I just wanted to add that another good instuctor that comes every 2 months thinks I am too soft on him that my rewards are to long making him lazy. ?
Member:
Canter

Posted on Friday, Apr 22, 2005 - 8:40 am:

Katrina,
I'm having the same issue lately with my mare and I really think she is taking advantage of me (my gut feeling plus confirmed by my trainer). I've done two things to "wake" her up and sharpen her off my leg. The first is after a good warm up, I ask for just a bit of canter. Once she canters, she seems to come alive again and is usually much more forward.

The other thing I have done (I saw this recommended by Kyra Kirkland at a dressage symposium a few years ago) is if she doesn't respond forward after a squeeze with my leg, I lift both legs off her sides and then really pop her hard. Be prepared for your horse to jump forward the first time you do this. Eventually, if you're consistent about INSISTING the horse responds to your leg, then all you have to do is really lighten your leg off the horse and then squeeze gently and the horse should move off.

I also have a tendancy to be too soft on my horse even though she is better trained than I am. I need to stop "nagging" at her and just insist. When I do, she never fails to respond beautifully. In my case, it's a matter of consistency.

Good luck!
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Friday, Apr 22, 2005 - 11:49 am:

Thankyou Fran,
I will try your advice thankyou. The funny thing is when doing dressage outside I never have to ask twice. I will let you know how it works.
Katrina
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, Apr 23, 2005 - 2:54 am:

What happens when your trainer rides him without spurs? Can she get a more lively action?
If yes, it means that your leg is innefective. If your trainer can't get him to work without spurs, he needs to be trained to respect the rider's leg. Your trainer will tell you whether this can be done with you on board or she has to train him herself.
A horse, however, can not be trained to respect a very weak leg. Dressage does require better than lukewarm pressure, and you have to produce it. Stronger leg only comes from a stronger, firm seat. If your seat was firm and secure, you'd find that your leg can press so strongly that spurs are very rarely necessary, and then only as a reminder.
If your seat is not firm enough to produce a strong leg, using spurs will create more action, but that action will make your seat even more unstable. An unstable rider with spurs on is, I think, not a good idea.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Saturday, Apr 23, 2005 - 8:24 am:

Hi Christos,
My trainer actually trains me more than my horse. I have trained him since he was 4. I have a very strong seat and I ride bareback up and down steep mountains ridden large side spooks at a gallop so thats not it. She has never ridden him. Though I will ask her to to ride him to see if that makes a difference. He has never been ridden in spurs .He is so hot outside I am forever giving half halts. She my trainer is realizing that my way actually works better with him. I am not going with spurs. I am just going to do most training outside. He loves that. He is the most responsive horse. I can ride him totaly without reins and do perfect patterns. I am also going to do work in the arena without my instructer.

Another thing I am thinking , maybe I am to busy waiting and listening to my trainer and my horse realizes I am not 100% tuned to him. Thats another thought I have.? Could that be it?

My girlfriend who has been doing dressage over 20 years was the only other person to ride him that was a few years ago and he bucked her off and she was hurt pretty bad, so I am hesitant to let someone else on him. Though I know he needs to be ridden by others everynow and again.
He is not a bad horse just really smart and I guess he wanted to test her seat. If she stayed on he would not have done it again.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Saturday, Apr 23, 2005 - 8:33 am:

Oh I forgot to say I meant light contact with his mouth. She makes me ride with more feel on the reins that he likes. She says my seat and legs are perfect there is nothing she would change.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, Apr 23, 2005 - 11:48 am:

Thanks, Katrina, this kind of completes the picture.
He sounds like a wonderful horse, albeit horribly bored of dressage. I think you can easily make him a lot more interested in the procedure with frequent transitions between gaits. Really frequent, don't ride more than one arena side in one gait, and frequently ask for walk/canter canter/walk and rein back.
I also like a flat out gallop down the long side or the diagonal with a skid halt at the end from time to time, but if the arena is not yours the owners and/or other riders may not be pleased at all with such attitude. Mind you, this is not "proper" dressage training and many feel it will teach the horse to pull or run away, but I have never seen this happen.
If all else fails, you may want to try some military work. For example, mount some baloons on 5ft sticks and go attack them with your whip or a wooden sword. Such work builds a very light and precise horse who exhales flames upon entering the arena, if you get the picture.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Saturday, Apr 23, 2005 - 6:06 pm:

Hi Christos, That sounds like the way to go. I will definatly try all of the above. I can see the flames already. . Boy would he love that. Me too. :-) Its not my barn however, though there are times when no one is in there and I have free rein. I cant wait to try your ideas, somehow I can picture them working.
Thank you!!!!!!!!
Katrina
Member:
Cmitch

Posted on Sunday, Apr 24, 2005 - 11:58 am:

Katrina,

I ride dressage and trail ride. My horse is absolutly hotter outside. I think that is natural for all horses, since there is more a sense of freedom as opposed to being confined in a ring. Int he ring, I would just stay at the walk at first, until you feel like when you increase your seat and maybe a lite leg, he moves forward and then yo u monitor the impulsion to ensure he keeps the pace YOU set. DO this by swinging your seat in th e rythmn (Not driving with your seat but following his movement) I wouldn't even over complicate it by moving to the trot until you can get the reaction you want at the walk. When you feel he is responsive at the walk in different speeds, following your lead and seat, then move up. You can also ask him to move his shoulders at teh walk, and he should move then RIGHT when you ask, if not (make sure he understands this is what you want him to do), he needs a sharp tap that means something with the whip on his shoulder. Next time ask him to move his shoulder with a liter aid, and he should do it immediately. All these little things addd up when you start your ride... He thinks... does she mean it? well yes she does, so I better react. The important thing about asking harsher if he doesn't listen the first time, is to ensure he understands what you want first and that he is with you mentally. Don't feel bad about him being hotter outside. Also, he might be running through your aids out there in a smaller way, and you don't know it. It is easier not to go around on the outside shoulder as he should, out in the open. Much more escape opportunities. In a ring, he has to be more correct. Let me know how it goes!

Cindy
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Monday, Apr 25, 2005 - 6:28 pm:

Hi Cindy, Thank you so much for your advice. We have tried most of what you say. He does this well when its just him and me .
However when in a lesson with my instructor/trainer. It doesnt work as much as I want or as well. To someone else. they might say I expect too much. I dont. I am used to hot horses who are hot off my leg all the time. He always has been untill I started with my trainer. He knows exactaly want I want and is being like a child who says no thanks not today I am bored. The crop or my voice normaly makes him jump to attention. Not in this case. Thinking back over and over in my head. She my trainer does make me repeat my requests too fast and I do feel like he thinks I am nagging him. I dont do this when its him and me. I ask once then the crop. Outside, he does try to run through my aids when excited but I make sure he is with me all the way. I do try and make him correct even on the trails. We never just ride. Its always a lesson , everytime I am on his back. And for every minute. Thank you so much. Its does give me more to think about.
Katrina
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