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| Discussion on Natural response to happiness or spook = head toss/buck | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2008 - 8:06 pm: Hi everyone. I raised my gelding from 3M. I do all sorts of desensitizing ground work (Parelli) and he has been under saddle for a year now. He will be 5 in MAY. He has always been very gentle to do ground work with and a solid citizen under saddle; really a true joy to work with.As I watched him grow up out in my pasture I always took note that he had a natural tendency to throw his head down, shake it back and forth, do a little bucking and take off in a canter .... when he got excited or a little spooked. Usually it was during play but I always figured this would come in to play one day when I was on him. We worked for a LONG time without this ever happening while I was on him. Including training while breaking to saddle, working while very green, working sessions as he grew, trail rides, casual rides in open pasture, etc. I would have considered him pretty much spookless until a few weeks ago!) Well? I was on board a few weeks ago, during sort of strong winds (duh.) We had a great, short training session. Starting with some lunging in the round pen, followed by walk, trot work in the arena - which all went great even considering the high winds. I decided to walk him out in the open pasture (not uncommon for us) and he got a little tense about a distant neighbor walking around in camoflauge. The neighbor was working in his yard and as we got closer the neighbor started banging on something and off we went! 1st was the head down, 2nd the head toss, 3rd the buck and then the canter and bucking across the field ensued. I chickened out and pretty much let myself fall off. I was so mad I fell off and I felt that if I had just thought positive thoughts instead of thinking I was about to die I could have ridden it out. He's really so big that he cant really get too rambunctious! I got back on........rode.......got off.......got back on and then finished with a trail ride through the woods and he was fine. (sorry for the long note but I want you to understand what is going on so that no one thinks he is sore, or ill mannered) Ok - tonight I rode. Same story. He was fine in the round pen, we had some very pleasant walk - trot work in the arena - followed by a walk through the open pasture. ( I like to reward him with a nice, relaxing, fun ride after we work). We did great in the field until he saw a different neighbor out working in his yard. And the guy's yappy dogs were barking. I felt the horse tense a little. So, remembering my last experience I starting thinking positive. I began keeping the horse's mind busy with a little circling, stop, go, circle, etc. Staying calm and reinforcing a positive experience. He was doing nicely so I decided enough was enough and went to walk him back to the house. Well, then he let two squirrels scare him! Off we went. Head down, head tossing, buck, canter, buck, etc. I STAYED ON! I wasnt about to give up this time. He was going to have to give me all he had to dump me. I really dont think he's trying to get rid of me or sore or anything. I think it is just what he does. It all happens so fast. Other than being a little tense I hardly have time to see the initial head down sign coming. As I brought him back to planet earth and got to quit bucking I gave him a scolding and gave him some sharp 'corrections' with my reins/bit. I know it's probably not the best way to handle it but all I could think is that I HAD to let him know this stuff is unacceptable. Obviously the common issue is people walking around in distance. I can work on that but how do I work with the head down, head toss, buck thing???? Thanks everyone. You always provide some good insight!!! |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2008 - 8:50 pm: Sounds like an interesting horse there! Full of life, not a bad boy by any means, but starting to develope a bad habit now.I think all horses have a pattern to things they do. I have one who will put his head down and squeal, then buck, another who throws her head up and then will try to shy. He's shown you how he goes through his little routine! My thoughts are this: How are you holding the reins that he can get away with all of this? Unless you are in a western pleasure class where the judge wants the reins low enough to jump rope with, you should have light contact on his mouth at all times. I know someone more experienced than I am can explain that better, but if you have the reins held just so, and he starts even thinking about tensing up, you should be able to keep his head where YOU want it. When you see something that you THINK he will react to, just be ready. RElAX. Breath deeply, make sure your legs are drapped nicely around his barrel, heels down, and just focus on going forward. If he stops, I am not against that. Let him look at what he's trying to see in the distance. But if I am thinking a horse is going to spin and take off, I'll ask his hindquarters to move over and take a little more hold on one rein so that we are in position to circle, not go charging off and bucking. Some people may say keep him busy the minute you think he is going to act up, but I think with some horses, they just get more hyped up and they are not learning it's o.k. to move on. As always with horses, not everything works with every horse, but definately change how you are holding the reins I think. A 5 year old is still a youngster and it may be that he needs a lot more work in an enclosed area where you can introduce him to various scary things where you both feel more secure. Please go back in his training and try to rethink where you are at with him so that this doesn't become a major problem. And do you do a one rein stop with him? If he gets to the point of bucking, which hopefully he don't again, you can put on hand on the front of the saddle, and with the other hand, pull as straight up as you can on one rein. Hard to do on a bucking horse but it will get his attention. Then do the circles and make him work for awhile. |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2008 - 9:15 pm: Hi Angie.Once I am done "working" him, I try to let him enjoy a loose rein walk around the open pasture. However, I do always keep an eye, and mind, on his demeanor and draw the reins CASUALLY in if I expect any goofiness. I am a dressage rider so having loose (jumping rope) reins is not my normal thing! Although I strive for it! ha! Keeping him busy does seem to work but the minute I give him some wiggle room in these situations he lets anything the least bit spookey get under his skin. Sort of like he's being playful instead of thinking I'm on board and he is responsible & working. I was doing one rein stops with him and I guess I need to reinforce that again. I do not do it until I need it and it's like he sort of forgets all that when he's excited. I feel like this may develop into a habit if I dont respond appropriately very soon. |
| Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2008 - 9:46 pm: Hi Cheryl,Good for you riding it out the second time. Sounds like the thing in common is that he's looking around and taking his cues from the environment rather than you. So I would recommend keeping him a lot busier when he's under saddle, so he develops the pattern of focusing on YOU as his primary influence. You are a lot more important than a distant person or dog! Give him something to do all the time, and have him busy when there are other stimuli. If you are just walking along, ask for a bit of leg yield, or try making the line exactly straight. Introduce halts etc.. Keep him working so, even if he gets tense, you have him on the aids and focused on his rider. I think he has temporarily given up the privilege of hacking around on a long rein sight-seeing. I don't mean you have to salute at X, but he's not ready for this freedom yet, apparently! Got a photo? Sounds like a good guy who's just got a bit of a green streak still. Glad you weren't seriously hurt in your dive. |
| Member: dtranch |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 8:47 am: Cheryl ... Always make sure you are proactive instead of reactive, especially on a young horse. Watch his ears, feel his body underneath you, etc. Keep him focused on you .. when you "feel" him getting antsy, ask him to do something to get his mind back on you. When you approach whatever is getting him hyped, try to face it, reassure him, and give him something to do again. Most importantly, try to stay relaxed and in control .. If he feels you getting excited, he will mirror your reaction.Absolutely make the 1 rein stop an automatic for both you and the horse. Use it in all your inside work as well. When I get the horse stopped on the 1 rein, I like to let them keep their head in for a while and reach out and reward by rubbing the eyes, reassuring talk, etc. to help him relax in this position, then release and reward always. I think of the "proper" 1 rein stop which includes disengagement of the rear, as one of the most important aspect of riding, especially young or green horses. I try to make it a place that the horse immediately realizes is a safe place to be. If you practice this until it is second nature to both you and the horse, it can be a life saver. Good luck and keep us posted. DT |
| Member: imogen |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 9:34 am: If you are riding English- Keep your reins short when you are in those situations and don't let his head go down - Sit back! - Drive him on with your legs and make him do some work Personally I feel holding onto the saddle is a bad idea as it clamps something rigid into their back and affects your balance, but that's just me. Good luck Imogen |
| Member: stevens |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 10:11 am: Hi Cheryl,I picked up on a couple of things that you mention in your posts about letting your horse "enjoy" a loose rein walk around the open pasture and "rewarding" him with a nice relaxing fun ride after you work. My horse's favorite reward is for me to get off and put him away to eat some more. Your horse may have well gotten the idea that "work" is over so doesn't think the same rules apply regarding leaping about. You may want to think about keep his work place and recreation places completely separate. Or as mentioned above make sure that he's always focused on you when you're on board. Good Luck! Chris |
| Member: maggienm |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 10:28 am: Cheryl, What a good attitude you have, and brave to. just think positive and ride it out!I appreciate that you want to reward your horse with a loose rein walk after he has beens a good boy. However, as was pointed out it sounds like he is not ready for that step in his training yet. So, to keep both of you safe keeping him busy and focused on you is the thing to do. When you are in your arena you can pick a time to stop and relax,I think it is good to teach a horse that he can stand still and relax under saddle, but, again even in a relaxed state he should be taking his cues from you, not the surroundings. In a way this is an advanced lesson. After you are finished riding and untack you can fuss and tell him what a special boy he is. |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 10:37 am: Just some thoughts here.. I always love what Dennis has to say.. Chris you could be onto something too, I thought the same thing..I ride nothing but young fresh horses, not by choice just seems that is all I have kept..  Anyway if a horse is really fresh I do some ground RESPECT lessons first.. not lunging per say but LISTEN and FOCUS on me , When the horse is on a lead line it is NOT ALLOWED to act up, jumping / bucking yahooing at all .. .. Now I don't know what or why, ( Dennis might know ) but what I have noticed with the ground lessons that less is always more... so if my flighty mare decides to do AIRS above the ground on a lead line , I actually loosen the line and walk toward her, that spots her in mid air.. Now I take that to the saddle.. if she decides a bush has a monster in it when we go by, I loosen the reins, ( of course I still have a good grip if I need to do the one rein stop ) and let her have her head.. That seems to be her calm down cue .. If I were to tighten and brace she then KNOWS that there is a monster in the bush,... I agree you have to always be aware and one step ahead when riding the young ones.. Maybe your reward can be dismount and a nice in hand walk ? On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Member: dtranch |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 10:58 am: Great points Ann ..I always do a pre-ride routine as you suggest, including lunging, but it is what I call sending exercises aimed at getting horse focused and listening to me. I never just let the horse run around on the end of the rope trying to get away and call it lunging. You are absolutely correct in your responses in my opinion. When a horse gets spooky or agitated and we immediately take up reins and brace for the worst, we will usually get the worst because we just told the horse to get ready, there's something bad out there. Instead, just do a little loose rein work like you would do in the arena like there is nothing going on. Also, when a horse acts up on the lunge or lead, the worst thing you can do in my opinion is brace up and fight it. Again, you are reinforcing the need to act up. I use gentle tugs to bring the focus back to me, and as soon as I get their attention back and they settle a bit, I reward. If we make everything a big issue, it will be a big issue to the horse as well. DT |
| Member: dtranch |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 11:01 am: Oh yea ... one more important thing to remember. Control and softness is not something you can force upon a horse .. it is something the horse has to give you.DT |
| Member: muffi |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 12:35 pm: WOW what a post - I devoured it.My horse is the same horse as yours. He is an 8 year old with no formal training - a back yard trail horse. I love him to death and he loves me. BUT. always the BUT. he acts up just like to talked about. The first time is always a fluke something comes up and scares him. he reacts. He has learned to spook in place under saddle (95% of the time that is) but in hand he is a monster. He can be un predictable. I KNOW - Yes I mean it I KNOW - it is me. I am new to horses, and do not currently have a trainer and well just need to learn to be more ALPHA with him. but... a pattern that I noticed is that if I let him get away with it once (as in jetting the first time) he does it again. Until I stick it out. as in you not jetting the second time. He used to do that what I called Wiggle and Giggle routine. like a Yay this feels good - let me buck. I did just what some one above said IN SADDLE and did the Hips over routine I got to the point that I could stop it every time by either just moving his hind end over or circling him if he is really excited. I can't let him get away with it ONCE cause he learns the bad action and does it again. I do a lot of letting him stop and "see" what it is bothering him. I see Trail rides as a cooperative event. I don't want a dull horse - not a push button horse - but a partner. So to be a partner he needs to see, smell and know his surroundings also. So on occasion his head perks up and he looks at it. as long as the "flag" is not up and he is not snorting - I am good - I let him check it out. but if the latter is happening - like the first time we saw Free Range Cattle in the Forest, I had to circle, and really keep him busy. SO now I have two questions for you all. One - when in saddle - Explain the one rein stop. Yea I don't know what it is. I think I need to know it. two - while I am walking him in hand when he goes "silly" I can't seem to control him. he wears a rope halter (smaller rope with knots in the righ place)with a 12 foot cotton lead and a leather popper. I have JUST startted using the Popper to snap him on the muzzel when he starts to be bad. Not hard now - just enough to get his attention. is this wrong? what would you all suggest? Oh one last comment - sorry this is long isn't it... When we do the relax after a long ride - I generally get off the horse all together about 200 yards or more from either the trailer or the barn. Loosen his saddle - if it is the barn I actually take his bridle & Bit off - and he walks behind or besides me - CALMLY.. he is great - he is a munch monster - he knows he get a sugar cube when we get to the Barn if he just follows and lines up at his tacking spot. This is Partnership to me - I love it. You might want to keep your horse "working" in the field then when you want to relax and reward him - get off then looosen his saddle and walk him home. My guy really enjoys that. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 2:47 pm: Just wanted to say there is a big difference between taking up the reins and bracing up, vs changing the slack in the reins and being ready in the saddle. I call it sitting deep, making sure I am breathing, legs not tight, heels down but not braced. I think Cheryl has that down from what I am reading in her 2nd post.I tend to think you should always stay on, but as I get older I am rethinking that. Nothing wrong with getting off and walking up to the scary object or people; either way keep him focusing on you. Just curious, what breed is he? |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 3:53 pm: You are all so kind to respond to my post. I really appreciate all the information sharing! Elizabeth and a couple others suggest he may not be ready for my version of enjoyment out in the open field after a training session. I guess that is right but it seems so odd to me that he used to be 100% fine doing it. But I guess it's a new phase for him!!I have had training sessions with him in the open pasture in the past and I think I will incorporate that into our lesson plans more frequently - as also suggested in this post!! And most importantly, I'll reinforce the one rein stop as I have sort of lost touch with doing that on a regular basis. It's funny how when you are about to come out of the saddle about 10 million "key learnings" fly through your brain! I think I tried them all in a 5 seconds flat!! Getting his head up along with my lame attempt at the one rein stop is what saved me, in my opinion. My horse is 18H 3/4 TB & 1/4 shire. So he is huge and getting his swinging head up is no easy thing to do!! Thanks again all! I'll keep you posted! For the next few rides I think I'll be in the arena! And let my dismount and a nice grooming session be his reward! The little turd! |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 3:56 pm: oh, I did have one comment based on some of the feedback.When I was lunging him yesterday, I told myself I needed to correct him if/when I saw this behavior on the lunge line. it always starts with the swinging of the head every so slightly. How can I correct that on the longe so that it carries over to under saddle. I see one person walks towards the horse mid air! Should I "become big" and approach him once I see the head going? |
| Member: dtranch |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 4:09 pm: Cheryl ... I simply tug on rope to get his attention back on me and give him a "shhhhhhhh" sound or something similar and make myself "big" with my hands toward his eye to let him know that is the wrong behaviour. As soon as he acknowledges me, I immediately release pressure and let him get back to work.DT |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 4:47 pm: if I had a warning like the head tossing I would then send down the cue to disengage his hind and reverse the direction of travel.. This can only be done once the horse has the cue learned.. So take a step back and do some ground work with him.. Also when I have a horse that is really fresh and just HAS to buck and fly, I constantly am changing direction.. disengage, change direction 1/4 circle , disengage, change direction.. The horse is now so focused on me that there is no time to leap and jump.. Sometimes my cues come fast.. and this is all done on a loose lunge line and thru body language..There are lots of ''Natural Horseman on RFD TV'' that can teach you their method of disengagement.. This is the first lesson I teach my babies on the 12 ft lead line at the walk.. .. Have fun.. On the first day God created horses , on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 5:02 pm: Okey Dokey! I can and will do that in the round pen and see if breaking the habit while I'm on the ground helps under saddle!!Thanks again! Y'all are great! |
| Member: sarahb47 |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 5:42 pm: These are great posts!The one-rein stop is an excellent skill to teach and use. However, it's most useful when your horse is traveling at a walk or jog, or has just started to scoot forward or sideways. If you're trotting or cantering along, and you get a spook or a buck, the one-rein stop might be pull your horse off balance and you'll risk a fall. At a trot or canter, the pulley rein, which is kind of like an indirect-rein half-halt, becomes more effective. To employ a pulley-rein, have both reins short enough so you have solid contact with the bit when your hands are just in front of the pommel -- or maybe a little shorter. Brace one hand against the crest of the horse's neck, and pull the other back and up toward your opposite shoulder. Do it quickly, and just as quickly bring the hand back down into your usual position. Repeat if needed. My stronger hand is my right hand, so if I need to use a pulley rein I brace the left hand (often grabbing a little mane just in front of the withers) and pulling up and back with my right hand toward my left shoulder. The pull is strong and I put my lower back and shoulder into it, not just my arm and wrist. But it lasts no more than a second. It serves to check any forward-downward action of the head and neck in a way that the horse cannot set against, being both brief and one-sided. Generally it does a good job of bringing the horse back onto his hind end, and slowing him down, at which point you can then safely use the one-rein stop. I'm riding a fun little five-year-old who can get up a good head of steam when we're conditioning for cross-country. When she's fresh, that steam translates pretty easily into a swerve-and-buck routine. I need to regain control without actually stopping, so a couple of modified pulley-rein actions usually work quite well. Oh, I also use my voice in a scolding growl, also, which she knows mean I'm displeased. I develop a couple of different voices in ground-training, and I use the same voices a lot when riding -- "good girl!" with a pat in a light, soothing, upbeat tone, or an encouraging "come on then, you can do it" if she hesitates at a fence, and a definitely deep, menacing, Klingon growl with a "get your butt in line, NOW, dammit." She hears the scolding tone and settles back to work pretty quickly. And if you need to dismount quickly to regain control, do it. (Be sure to practice a brisk dismount as part of a regular routine so your horse won't be startled by your sudden voluntary departure from the saddle.) A young horse often needs to receive reassurance and confidence from someone at his head, if he's truly worried about something. And at my age, 57, the ground can look very friendly sometimes! And remember -- a really green horse often doesn't have the confidence in his own balance to buck or get goofy. It's only when he's secure in his athletic abilities that he can play and challenge his rider a bit. That's why a 3-year-old with 30 days of basic training is often more compliant and easier to manage than a 4-year-old who's had a year under saddle and knows how to balance with a rider on board. It sounds like your big gelding is just feeling good and has developed confidence in his ability to be agile and athletic, even while carrying a rider. The spooks appear to be just little challenges, because he hasn't yet gotten the message that bucking under saddle is NOT part of the job. He's simply responding to an unexpected stimulus the same way he would if he were free in the field. One cautionary tale about trying a one-rein stop on a horse that's truly afraid . . . A rather nervous three-year-old I'm working with had been thoroughly trained in the one-rein stop, which worked quite well when she got a little quick or simply didn't respond to a request to stand still. But when she encountered cows for the first time, she gave in to sheer terror and tried to bolt. I employed a one-rein stop and the "disengagement" of her hindquarters apparently just increased her panic. I brought her head around to the side, but instead of stopping, she fell. She scrambled up again, with me still on board, but needless to say I wasn't going to try another one-rein stop. The only way to reduce her terror was to let her feel she was still in some control, so for about an hour I led her and then rode her near the cows, allowing her to look and snort and dance, but always asking her to keep working and keep going forward. I used leg-yielding, circles, turns, and frequent pulley-rein half-halts to keep the speed and direction manageable. Eventually, the jigging and spook-and-spin maneuvers became a nervous fast walk and then a reasonable flat-footed walk. But I did not ask her to stop until she actually offered to. Flight is a horse's most powerful defense against something that might eat him. If we take away that defense in a true fear situation, we're not going to increase his confidence level. And yes, that filly is a quarter horse. She's bred to chase cows . . . but I think she'd rather be a jumper, not a cow horse. Sarah |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 6:10 pm: I totally agree with you and the one rein stop. Sometimes it is NOT the way to go!! I had a similar situation trying to do it on a small mare that bolted on me. We almost took a spill together.Thanks Sarah for all of your thoughts. I like what you have to say. Specifically that now that he is fit and has a year under saddle to get a bit more athletic - I am really riding a different horse than I was several months ago. We did just finish up some round pen work this afternoon! I found out he does need some freshing up with that! I think I've spoiled him a little. :-) |
| Member: muffi |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 7:26 pm: OK No one rein stops when they are particularly agitated. got it.the Pulley stop sounds a bit severe? doesn't that hurt their mouth? Or did I not understand that well enough. anyway - I know Cheryl is excited about this post but yea so am I. I am going to use these tips on my baby. By the Way Cheryl - THAT HORSE IS HUGE!! 18H? wow.... do you use a crane to get on him? LOL I thought 16.3 was bad.. I need to put mine in a ditch when we are trail riding and i get off so I can get back on or find a tree or rock to use to get a leg up. You must be major athletic. Can we get a picture of you guys???? |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 8:52 pm: my pics are too big and I cant figure out how to resize them so that they are 64KB or less as required by this website. I sent you two via email! We lost some trees last year in a storm. My husband sliced them up for me - I have those stumps all over my land!! Near gates, near the arena, down by the pond! I can NOT get on without a step of some sort. |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 9:25 pm: Cheryl. https://webresizer.com/resizer/its easy and its free... it is what i use to post my pictures.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Member: mysi |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 9:42 pm: cheryl,If you have MS Office, you have a program call picture manager, open the pic in there, edit, and resize to email small doc. I'd love to see the big boy too! |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 10:03 pm: Aren't you all so smart!!Here is one! My first ride on him under saddle - last MARCH 
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| Member: sarahb47 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 12:31 am: OK, does the pulley rein hurt a horse's mouth?I ride dressage, and my favorite bit is a french-link snaffle. I tend to use that until the horse tells me different. My horses and I are comfortable with "connection" -- meaning they soften in the poll, flex in the jaw, and are confident in taking a steady feel of the bit, but without pulling. That connection provides communication and security -- an open telephone line, as Lendon Gray calls it. Yes, we ride on the trails without a lot of contact, IF the young horse is ready for that and can travel straight and relatively steady without micromanagement. And in jumping, I want my horse to make good decisions on his own, without me micromanaging his every step. But the basics of dressage do require steady contact, a forward reach, and a reach-down and-find-the-bit approach. So if I take a bit of a hold on the french-link snaffle, those big rubbery lips will pick up the contact and say, "Yup, there she is, I know what she's thinking and what she wants." And if that horse leans, pulls, twists or otherwise messes up the balance and contact, I will -- sometimes gently, sometimes sharply, depends on the horse -- use my hands to say "no way!" and "hey, come back into balance and self-carriage, now, please!" There's an infinite number of motions we can make with hands-to-bit, and an infinite number of differences between comfortable security and severe pain. It's a sliding scale, and tactful touch means everything. A judiciously applied pulley rein, or a one-rein stop, or a half-halt, can make a horse think that perhaps he shouldn't do what he just did -- without scaring, hurting, or damaging anything. And the gentlest bit in rough, uneducated hands, doing stupid, illogical actions, can be torture. It's all in the balance and the touch. And it's our responsibility. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 6:32 am: What a big beautiful boy! He looks like such a sweetheart; hard to believe he's up to such antics! I gasped when you posted his size, I thought no wonder he's getting away with putting hid head down and bucking,that's a lot of horse there!Love the scenery, where are you located? |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 8:33 am: I'm outside of Houston TX......way outside. But still considered the Houston area.Nicely put Sarah.......... And if I'm in an emergency (as I was) I honestly have to say I wasn't thinking about hurting him ....I was more focused on him hurting me!! |
| Member: dtranch |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 9:02 am: IMO any response you use only in an emergency probably will not work and may be painful to the horse.I "teach" the 1 rein stop to clients and horses, and we practice it to make it second nature. The rider knows, and the horse knows exactly what we are doing. That is why we practice it at all gaits so we don't have to think about it. If you are driving your car and someone pulls out in front of you, you don't think "take right foot off accellerator, place it on brake, step down firmly and steer away from danger ..... you just do it because it is a reflex action. Your emergency equine responses must be honed in the same way. There are many times when you can not use the 1 rein stop, especially on the trail with not much room. The faster the horse is going, the bigger the circle executed to get to the 1 rein stop .. and 1 rein stop needs to be done on the correct lead at a canter. Practice "half halts" , "pulley reins", or what ever you are comfortable with. I re-emphasize pro active riding so that none of these methods are needed for emergencies on a regular basis. DT |
| Member: muffi |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 4:56 pm: Nice looking BIG Baby there.Ok I'm an Idiot what does IMO mean any way I see it all the time and just gloss over it. It took me months to learn what ROFL meant... |
| Member: wgillmor |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 5:39 pm: Muffi,In particular: In My Opinion. In general, try https://www.urbandictionary.com/ Wiley |
| Member: canderso |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 5:56 pm: Cheryl,I realize I am coming into this a bit late and like everyone else I think you are on the right track. Four thoughts: 1) horses can't buck if they are going forward so the second you see the head thing going on, start pushing the horse forward. 2) Once you get comfortable (!), make sure YOU decide when the horse stops - not him. So if he starts acting silly bugger then turn it into work. HARD work. 3)now to sound like the psycho horse person. My sweet but evil buckskin used to buck/bolt under me - I am sure it was just for the sheer joy of it all. One day when he started I remember staying loose but letting a burst of pure fury go through me to the horse as I thought "THIS IS NOT FUN FOR ME". The horse stopped dead in his tracks, and I swear, never did it again - well the bucking anyway (grin) 4) You may find one day you appreciate this experience. One of my new horses decided she would try throwing her head. ("Be afraid, rider, be VERY afraid, because I might do something bad!!") I just laughed and realized she would have to up her game a WHOLE LOT if she was going to scare me with that behaviour. After two rides the behaviour disappeared. Oh, and welcome to the frequent flyer club. Cheryl Platinum member, Frequent Flyer Club |
| Member: leilani |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 6:33 pm: Cheryl,Your horse is HUGE! My mares are 14.2 and 14.3. They look like Breyer models. Good luck. It will get better. Leilani |
| Member: mysi |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 8:23 pm: Cheryl he's gorgeous. My favorite breed is the tb/draft cross. My horse Moose is the same cross, 17.2 and has the same head toss, buck, canter when he's frisky in the pasture. On trail rides when we got to the point to turn around to head home I'd let him canter/gallop down this nice straightaway. The second we turned around down goes the head, shakes it side to side, bucks, and off he'd go. I use to love it and think t was funny because it was one of the few times he was that playful under saddle, I always thought he was enjoying himself. Plus his bucks were not the dismounting kind. Maybe in his younger days they were bigger and scarier. He'd toss his head and shake it at spooky times too but nothing more. I found the DrOpping of the head the most annoying because he was so heavy so, I got a 3 ring elevator bit (I only had to use it on the first small ring). I used it on trails to stop that because with his size it's easier said than done to pull his head up. It worked right away and I stopped using it after a couple of weeks.It's funny that they can get spooked by something, like your second episode and settle then they look for something to spook at like the squirrels. Moose does the same thing. He's 15 now, fox hunted for 8 years before I got him and was exposed to everything. Still spooks at the garbage can that may be 1/2 inch moved from the day before. I had trail ridden him 4 days a week, he's seen it all and still spooks at the stupid things. Fortunately he didn't have the energy to buck and run with me. But the big difference was how I handled it. If I got nervous (it's a long fall) he was 10 times worse. Once he was spooked on the ride, he looked the rest of the ride for the ghosts in the bushes. I use to sing to him (as stupid as that sounds - and I'm terribly tone deaf). But I think it relaxed me and relaxed him. I think me being relaxed was the key, but I like to pretend my singing relaxed him as well, lol. If I was passive to his spook, he got over it much quicker. If I focused on keeping his focus on me, I made him more agitated and strung out therefore more spooky. |
| Member: paardex |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 3:49 am: Beautiful picture!This post though does make me very unhappy/nervous In march my gelding comes home from being [thoroughly]trained under the saddle. Alas he has the same antics as yours and I am sure he remembers them! Hmmm what excuse can I find to let him go back to pastureornament? Jos |
| Member: maggienm |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 8:23 am: Melissa, singing is not stupid at all. What you are doing is for the good of the horse, and for you. That doesn't sound stupid to me.Funny about the head shake thing, my draft cross does it too. |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 8:43 am: Well, I'm sort of glad to hear it is not so uncommon!Hey........ I was explaining to my husband one day how my horse really likes it when I sing to him. I was telling him how calming it is to him and how I do it when he gets nervous. Soon thereafter, I was telling someone else about how I sing to him and all of a sudden it dawned on me! It is ME that it relaxes!! hahaha! I wonder if anyone hears me! I pick some pretty stupid songs! I will talk to my trainer about the bit. I'd like to see if I can fix it in another way but I really think this is pretty embedded in him makeup. Therefore, it may be time for trying a different bit. He rides in a big fat snaffle right not. |
| Member: mysi |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 10:22 am: Cheryl, Nothing can be worse than my singing, and I make up songs as I go along, it's pretty scary! lol. I ride Moose in a happy mouth snaffle and it works perfect for everything. I hate the fact that I had to put a more harsh bit in his mouth but no matter how deep I sat and strong I attempted to be, you can't fight a 1700lb horse's weight. And like I said, if I got to scolding with him it made him panic and get upset (he's a little sensitive). So it was really the best option and he really respected it. I put my trainer on him for a trail ride and she tried all her tricks and came back and said "we need to get another bit for trail riding". She always thought it was me before that. Have your trainer take him out and experience it for herself, she'll probably have a better idea of what to do.BTW, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who sings to my horse. |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 10:29 am: Cheryl, I KNOW people have heard me singing to my horse when we are both a bit tense. My repetoire ranges from "A hundred bottles of beer on the wall" to Pink Floyd to Beethoven. It works because when you are singing, you have to breathe. WHen you're not holding your breath, your body is more relaxed and your horse most certainly feels that and will relax too.I have a picture of me and my horse passing the judges stand before entering the ring from this summer. The judge and the scribe are cracking up in the picture because I was singing one stanza from Simon & Garfunkels' "The Boxer" and in that verse, the words are about a young lonely runaway who finds the whores on 7th avenue and declares that he takes some comfort there...Hey! whatever works! 
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| Member: cmora |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 11:10 am: Non horse people would think we're nuts, I'm sure! It reminds me of the question I get from those non-horse people........"why do you take lessons all the time? You know how to ride!" Off to get hay! have a great day everyone! |
| Member: muffi |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 11:47 am: I would sing - "she'll be coming round the mountain when she comes. Riding a big red horse when she comes..." I would totally modify that song and sing it to death. My favorite was to sing in down the Long Dry Washes when I lived in Arizona. I am sure people heard me although I was alone on 22 000 acres of nature Preserve. LOL I haven't sung to Comet in a long time - time to start singing again!(and I am certifibly TONE DEAF! but Comet doesn't care so is he!) my repitoire is just that one song but I change the words all the time.... Comet doesnt mind. and you are all right I remember it did calm him tremendously. So how much is hay down there in Houston? We are paying $10 for 60 lb bales of Timothy in Santa Fe |
| Member: paardex |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 12:55 pm: Loads of dressageriders say their horses love the Kur because they love to danse on the music.What does that say about our horses being happy with the singing? Some horses are born with more musical talent then others? Or do I torture her ears and does she just accept it because she loves me? Jos |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 2:11 pm: I'm just now getting around to reading this discussion. There's not much to add, except: seems like we had a thread about people singing to their horses some time ago and it seems like a lot of us do it. I think it calms us down and therefore the horse, but that the singing itself calms the horse as they aren't used to hearing us sing, whistle or hum if there's a problem, only when everything is o.k.I'm currently reading a book by Robert M. Miller,MD "Understanding the Ancient Secrets of the Horse's Mind" It re-iterates and underscores what most of us already know about the horse being a prey animal with flight as it's first line of defense and how that affects the horse's behavior and responses. When I first started the book I was thinking "why did I buy this? It's so basic, I already know this stuff." But as I read further it really made me think about stuff I had forgotten or don't always pay attention to/think about in regards to the horse's strong senses, the way it sees things and hears things; how it has evolved over thousand upon thousands of years to act a certain way in order to survive. And, it brings out how many of the ways we respond to the horse's reactions actually tend to strengthen the reaction instead of reassure, promote trust in our judgement, etc. It's really quite interesting and a good reminder for me and probably many of us. I mention the book because I think it ties in with this thread. Often we are the ones that are responsible for the horses "bad" behaviour because we have inadvertently conditioned the horse to respond a certain way. If, for instance, we have habitually allowed a horse to run in a particular place, he remembers this place and will think he should run every time he gets to it. If he sees a huge, black dumpster and thinks it will eat him (hurt him) and won't go past it, then we beat on him to get him to pass it, we are reinforcing the idea that the dumpster will cause him hurt. At any rate, a good book imo and maybe helpful. btw Cheryl, beautiful horse! He's be quite a thrill to ride but like some of the others, I'd need a ladder. I use a step-stool to get on as it is, and the biggest horse I ride is 16H! |
| Member: leilani |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 3:02 pm: Sara,I believe you don't punish the horse for being a horse. When I'm heading down frustration road, I take off my human glasses and put on my equine glasses. Helps me a lot to sort out situations. Thanks too for the information on Dr. Miller's latest book. I have met him several times as he and his wife are close friends of the man who put the foundation on Anuhea. Dr. Miller has been all over the world and has seen many horses in many different environments. Leilani |
| Member: leilani |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 3:13 pm: Oops, Dr. Miller's latest book is "The Revolution in Horsemanship" (good reading also). The book Sara is reading was published in 1999. Leilani |
| Member: mysi |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 7:12 pm: You definitely shouldn't punish a horse for being a horse. I believe in being kind and understanding.We absolutely are responsible for conditioning horses to react in certain ways at certain times. FYI: I have NEVER beat my horse to get past a garbage can (or for any reason)or given him any reason to fear one he's just a big chicken. It doesn't matter if its a garbage can,a big rock, or his own shadow, he jumps and spreads all fours out and then passes by staring. It use to scare me as but then I learned to ignored it and at no point was he ever reprimanded for being scared. In regards to running in the same spot, I definitely conditioned him to that specific spot, no doubt. Like I said, it was fun to watch him go like that. The bit was used because every time he got excited, scared or frustrated (like when we were moving to slow in a group) he'd yank his head down and swung it around. After sore leather burned hands every time, being yanked out of my saddle continually, and whip lash (not literally). And continually trying to pull him up which in any bit its rough on their mouth. I was actually use to the pulling and ignored it but my trainer felt it was much more humane to have a bit that made him want to stop without me pulling. It's alot more kind than constantly having to pull on his mouth. AND he never complained. I do believe that horses sense our energy and feed off of it. Hence the reason some horses need a confident self assured rider because they aren't quite sure. My horse is one of those and I wasn't what he needed, but he taught me to be confident and take charge and he met me half way by being patient with me. They also test us continually like children and it is our job to keep them on track.} |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 - 12:26 am: Melissa, I hope you don't think I was accusing you or anyone else here of beating their horse or of being overly rough in any way! I brought up the book because I think that I, and therefore I assume other horse owners/riders/trainers often forget the kind of animal we are working with and how differently they see, hear, and smell the world than we do. |
| Member: dove2 |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 - 8:21 pm: OK, so back to the head tossing: I think my horse owns it! Here's a video my daughter put together of my usually sane steed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_OT-eZRvAQ&feature=userI'm posting it in honor of his sixth birthday 1/17/08. |
| Member: cmora |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 - 8:28 pm: Bummer! I cant view it. I connect via my work computer and they have youtube.com blocked!! too bad! I wanted to see it! |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 - 9:04 pm: Dove2, not only can that bad boy toss his head.. but he threw in some good lead changes..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Member: dove2 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 6:48 am: Ann, how nice of you to notice! He does the most graceful lead changes. I have one video capturing incredible tempi changes. Now, if only we can get those under saddle.... I used to get the head shaking under saddle as his major means of communicating to me (usually about my body being too rigid or poor saddle fit, I think). Much less now. He's got his own opinions on things, a lot of pride, quite bright, and wants to communicate them to me. At first I thought I was suppose to "make" him do things. Now I realize it needs to be his idea, first to accept it, then to carry it out - all without a fight. "The part that has meant the most to the horse and me is the communications between us. By studying their actions and reactions, I have been helped to understand how to present myself so the horses will respond to what I ask of them." -Tom Dorrance |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 7:46 am: Cute video, Dove2...I love to watch them when they are so full of p&v like this! |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 10:49 am: I like to sing or hum something like "You are so Beautiful" or "I Honestly Love You"...anything calming that sends the right message. I try to avoid songs with words like "another bites the dust" or "All Jacked Up"...LOL!!!Love the video Dove2. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 12:14 pm: Angie,LOL! I keep clasical or country playing in the barn and don't allow hard rock for the same reason! There's days they sure don't need any encouragement! Fran, I take it the key word there is "watch?" |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008 - 8:46 am: Oh yes, Sara, most definitely!!!
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| Member: muffi |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 16, 2008 - 1:23 am: Sara - I do that too! I keep Country in the Barn too! one with a lot of talk chatter - I think they like the noise and company - I use to be a Head Banger but I guess old age has mellowed me out some. Personally I like the sound of silence.Yea Cheryl - I can't get to you Tube either for the same reason - Darn those work filters! So I sent that to my personal ID - some day soon I will watch the "magnificant head tossing, lead changing Birthday horse". |
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