|
|
Discussion on What do you guys think?
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 16, 2008 - 8:18 pm:
So I have my sweet ottb, and we are cruising along with our everyday horse stuff. Some days better than others (horrible day last Saturday, in which he was a TURKEY on the lunge line). I am wondering though, how we are doing with our training.
My trainer and I have been working with him since late August (usually 1 lesson and 1-2 trains a week). Now it is mid January, and we are still focusing on the same issues as we were then. I am questioning the "status quo", but am feeling so badly about it. I adore my trainer, and consider her a wonderful friend.
To put it clearly, he is still very inconsistent within the rhythm of his trot, and that is what we continue to try to develop. To me, this is a very basic skill that we should be beyond (for the most part) by now. My trainer rarely gets on him because she says she doesn't feel comfortable getting on him when he is being "fresh"-his fresh is not the typical tb fresh-even I am not apprehensive. I respect her though, and know that this is something that she has always been up front about. At this stage in her life, she doesn't want to take risks like that. She seems to do some nice work with him on the lunge line, but I can't help but wish I could see some growth.
I addressed this with her, and she said that her method takes a great deal of patience (which I totally get-there are no artificial aides or "short-cuts"). I have asked her about sending him to a trainer (or her) for a few months, to solidify his skills for me, and she feels strongly that this is a bad idea. She feels that when horses are sent off, they learn to respond to the trainer, then when the owner gets them back, it is a whole new learning curve.
Am I being impatient? I would love some thoughts. Thanks, guys!
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 16, 2008 - 10:01 pm:
Gwen, all good things take time.. but if you are not an experience rider and your trainer won't get on your horse to help.. I hate to say, but it just might be time to look for other help.. Your trainer if she is worth her salt will understand that you need someone to RIDE your horse to help you out..
It took ALL SUMMER for my trainer and I and monthly clinicians to get a balanced canter on my hot WB mare.. it took ALL three of the components to do it.. My trainer was more then willing to get advice and ideas from outside help.. 'she was open' ... she is worth her salt.. Not one person is perfect, and it really helps to get outside help when you come to a wall.. and frankly , Rhythm with a balanced rider is not one of the harder components of skills to teach.. BUT very important to advancement..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 16, 2008 - 10:26 pm:
Hi Gwen,
This is that cute TB we talked about a while back? Hmmph.
So I completely support your idea that it will speed your horse's progress and your own if an experienced person would get on him and help develop him under saddle. Trot rhythm is important, but is generally not a sticking point for a trainer or a horse. So I wonder what happens as you get to more difficult work down the road.
I'm with Ann, you need to find someone in addition to or in place of your current trainer. You could start by asking her if she has an advanced student who might ride him for you IF that seems like a good approach to you. Otherwise, you could try looking for good clinics, and start cruising around watching other people teach.
My trainer gets on my horse infrequently, mostly so I can watch her go, but I know that she will get on her at any time I get stuck or need guidance. If she were afraid of my big rowdy Holsteiner, I guess I would look for someone who was not.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 6:32 am:
Thanks girls. I was hoping you two would read this!
Ann, although I have been riding for almost twenty years (yikes), I am definitely new to training a greenie. My guess is that Theo just needs the consistent reminders of what is expected in terms of a working trot pace. In theory, based on the amount of training sessions/lessons, I would have thought that the frequent work would at least speak for something. I could see if he was difficult or a little bit dumb, but he is very smart and super easy to work with.
I am trying not to be "stuck" here, but it is just defying all logic for me to be working on the exact same skills as I was in September, after having paid for sooo many lessons/training rides. She made a great case for herself, saying that it takes time, and he had an abscess, and he is a tb in the winter, etc. Usually she changes my mind...
She is going away for two months at the beginning of February. I think I am going to work with another trainer at the barn while she is gone, so we'll see what happens with that!!!
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 7:24 am:
Gwen, I gotta agree with Ann & Elizabeth. While an ottb has a lot to learn, and may prove to be more of a challenge that an "ordinary" horse, listen to your gut. Sounds like he is such a nice horse so he should be making more progress.
My trainer has an amazing resume, but she is quite old now and doesn't often get on my horse...but she NEVER hesitates to recommend a clinic or another trainer. She introduced me to a close friend who is a more skilled rider than I am and is thrilled when we can set up times for the friend to come out and ride Sparkles...and then she will pick the friends brain on what worked and what didn't work. In other words, she's very open to all ideas that will help her students...and that's the way any good teacher should be
|
Member:
gldilox
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 2:28 pm:
I definitely think it helps to have the trainer work the horse. It gives you a chance to see what the horse looks like when he's doing what he's supposed to! It gives him a chance to understand what is being asked and to have clear cues, as opposed to when I ride and may not have all my "aids in a row."
My horse looks amazing when the trainer rides him. I usually cannot get as much out of the horse as the trainer but that's why we pay them.
I also agree about going to clinics and learning as much as possible from different sources. A good trainer will encourage this.
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 4:16 pm:
So Gwen,
What's going on with his trot rhythm? Is he still inverted, or is he just not maintaining a steady rhythm forward?
In a trained horse, the rider sets the rhythm through the influence of her seat and (in the posting trot) the rhythm and nature of her posting. On a green horse, the rider is trying to teach him to follow her aids and be steady.
A trick that helps me is to pick a song that has the right beat for a good working trot, and sing it out loud as I post. I would share my usual song, but it isn't clean.
This keeps me from falling into my old eventing habit of following the horse and inadvertently re-enforcing the wonky rhythm. Lots of transitions help. Ten strides of trot, walk, etc.. Simple figures can help too, depending on his balance. He will first find a rhythm on a straight line, most likely, since that's easiest for him.
Do these things seem like they might help?
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 6:00 pm:
I do get that, Elizabeth. It makes sense, that I do not want a robot who picks a rhtythm and does not deviate. I want him to be influenced by me. What is happening, is that he wants to get quick (especially to the left-you know, ottb), and I just can't seem to get him settled into a relaxed rhythm. I am trying to keep my posting slow so that he slows to it. My trainer a few weeks ago said we should resort to actually using more hand to slow him because he is not ready for the "rest". When I use more hand, he gets really hollow and tense. I am not explaining myself well, I know. When I circle, I find that he DrOps that shoulder more and motors. I know I should be counteracting that by remaining in my outside aides...
I do feel at times like I am riding him effectively, and he responds well. THere have been maybe three rides about which I felt like I rode him well and went well as a result. But I feel like they are so few and far between, and I feel like I wish she would get on him more, and I am stumped about why we are not further along.
Do I sound like a whiny brat who is not taking ownership of these problems??? You can be honest!
I appreciate your ideas, and will definitely utilize them, as I always do from you guys! Thanks again, everyone.
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 7:15 pm:
One thing that helped me keep a steady trot pace is to use a metronome (my trainer watched my horse at a natural trot w/out me and together we set the beat). I bought an inexpensive electronic one that fits in my pocket from a local music store. For some reason, having that tic, tic, tic helped me control my post better than without one. I only used it a few times before the correct rythm was fairly permanently stuck in my head (having a music background may have helped that)...but will ocassionally still take it out if neccessary.
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 7:34 pm:
Another thought just popped into my head. I wonder if you aren't sitting too lightly in the saddle on the down beat of your post. If you sit very deliberately (I hate to say "hard", but make your horse feel your weight without slamming down into the saddle) and your horse doesn't match the rhythm of his trot to your posting, he'll bump up against you as you come down and his body comes up. That's not comfortable for him and if you keep at it, he will learn that to make himself more comfortable, he must match his pace with your posting.
For me, if my horse gets rushy (often after we come down from more difficult canter work and she loses balance), sitting the trot, with a really, really deep seat helps me bring her back to balance and rhythm.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 7:45 pm:
So Fran, you bring me to my next question:
Is this not a green horse thing?
Like an idiot, my metronome ran out of batteries, and I can't figure out how to open the battery section!!!
I will try the "hard" posting. One thing I do, that I can't quite seem to shake, is I do like a double-beat post. Probably doesn't help...
|
Member:
sureed
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 9:26 pm:
Gwen,
I completely agree with Fran, this is the latest thing my trainer has told me - I am too light in the downbeat of my post to set the rhythm of my horse. Also, I agree about the singing. I use Row Row Row Your Boat, but any two-beat song will do, and you can speed them up or slow them down to get the cadence you want. I also agree with Ann, I think you need a trainer willing to get on your horse. I am in professional training and ride in lessons three days a week, which means trainers are on my horse two days a week. I couldn't ride for a week and a half recently so the trainers rode her. I felt like I was on a different horse. She was bending and responsive in transitions. They do make a difference in the horse and then they teach me to ride her the way I should. It makes such a big difference. My horse is green, she is five and only under saddle for a year, but she has progressed unbelievably. Now she is a Warmblood, and replaced my OTTTB who was flippin' unrpedictable. My trainer did a great job with him too, but at almost 60 years-old, and back in the saddle after 20 years off, I just couldn't deal with the Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde thing.
Sounds like your horse, like mine has Attention Deficit SynDrOme (ADD) and needs to be paying more attention to you. There are ground exercises and round pen exercises to help deal with this, but bottom line is it sometimes takes someone with greater confidence than we amatuers may have to get their attention. Having grown up riding TBs it is hard for me to abandon them as my riding horse of choice, but they just aren't bred for anything but racing anymore and temperament be damned. Outside the racing world you see many successful TBs in eventing. Insofar as determining your expectations for your horse, it would be helpful for you to know the temperament of your horse from a heredity standpoint. I had a Storm Cat and the are notorious for being difficult. You can check out your horses's pedigree at equineline.com
Suzanne
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 9:44 pm:
Thanks Suzanne. My trainer and I actually usually comment on the great work ethic of this boy, so his attention doesn't seem to be an issue (I could be wrong about this). Although he can get himself in a bit of a tither. What seems to be glaring at me is that my timing, skill, and physical level is not where it should be to make effective growth with him. I am feeling like I want more intervention, but am not sure how to go about it! He usually tries so hard. He is out of the Mr. Prospector line, which I don't know much about in terms of personality.
I am inclined to agree with you about training rides helping him, but I am really stuck between a rock and a hard place because she doesn't want to ride him, but also can't think of anyone that she recommends for the two months she is gone. I guess the bottom line is that I am not feeling great about status quo, and trainer thinks I am being unreasonable about my expectations.
Again, I love all of your ideas. I am taking notes to bring to the barn!
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 10:51 pm:
Hi Gwen,
If he gets quick, just ask him for a down transition. Ask from your core and your seat (bring your belly button back towards your spine), and back it up with your hand if you must. A few in a row done the same way and most horses will no longer need the hand.
The double bump may be part of your problem. It's kind of a core strength/timing thing. The best trick I know for this is to play with your posting (better on a different horse, but it won't hurt your guy-- just may feel disorganized at first). Hold the "up" in your post for 2 strides, then down 1, up 2, etc.. You'll be changing diagonals on each "up" phase. You can do this up for 3, 4 etc., but never be down for more than 1. A week or so of practice seems to help folks get their timing and control nailed, and then you will never lose it. The double bump may be driving him forward more than you like.
Your guys sounds cool. I like the Mr. Prospector horses. Can he jump?
|
Member:
sureed
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 11:34 pm:
Gwen,
How old is this horse, how much was he raced, how long have you ridden? This information will help you know what you are dealing with and how to approach your issues. Again, the info regarding your horse is available at equineline.com. It would also help you to know when he was gelded. A friend at my training barn rides an OTTTB in jumpers. The horse is a handful and I swear has flashbacks to his racecourse years. I also suspect that he was gelded late and may even not have been completely gelded as he seems to have plenty of testosterone flowing. He is particularly interested in the mares in our barn. When we are working out in the field he will sometimes take off at a dead gallop and it takes her several rounds to bring him back. I believe he is having flashbacks to his racing days. These race horses have histories and experiences we don't know about. The more you know, the more you can bring your horse forward in its training. I don't know that much about Mr. Prospector as I don't own any of his offspring, but you should see what you can find out about his temperament and progeny. I am standing a TB stallion from Great Britain and consulted with a Bloodstock Agent about his prospects as an American race horse sire (of which he had a dim view). It was amazing what he could tell me about the various lines, their temperaments and soundness issues.
I wish you great success with this horse. I am devoted to TBs and though I am breeding Warmbloods I am bringing forth the TB in my lines.
I still strongly advise that you find a trainer willing to both ride and instruct you on how to ride this horse.
Suzanne
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 6:42 am:
Suzanne, he has been off the track for a year. He was also gelded a year ago, although you would NEVER know it. He is a very good boy, and I really don't think of him as a handful. Even when he gets quick, I am not worried that he is out of control. I just want a nice rhythm to ride! He is only four and was not terribly successful on the track. I feel pretty strongly that when gets super quick to the left, he thinks that is how he is supposed to go, because that is what he was taught on the track.
Once again, I love your idea Elizabeth. I will try that. I have my Sally Swift book out again (I brought it out about a month ago), and her visualizations are so helpful. I have been practicing thinking of myself as one of those weebles that don't fall-that helps me with my center. This boy has definitely taught me how to ride better already.
I don't know if he can jump, but like I have said before, he has a beautiful stride (when he relaxes and settles).
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 7:28 am:
Gwen, to answer your question: yes, it's a green horse thing, compounded by his former career and the lack of a highly skilled rider helping him and you.
He sounds like such a sweetheart of a horse and I am certain that with time, you and he will progress. The question to you is: how patient with your trainer are you willing to be? I get the sense that she is selling you a bit short and that her lack of openess and ideas is hindering your progress.
It's difficult to change trainers, particularly if the trainer is a friend. I went through this shortly after I started riding (twice, actually). Both times, the decision to switch trainers was agonizing. However, the more I read, the more I learned that I wasn't learning what I should be learning...so, considering the price of a horse & care and the hourly fee of a trainer, I switched. The friendship survived...and my learning curve moved forward in leaps and bounds.
Good luck!
|
Member:
canderso
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 8:42 am:
Hi Gwen,
As usual I am late coming into the discussion ... here are some thoughts:
Earlier you said "I do not want a robot who picks a rhythm and does not deviate."
OH, YES YOU DO!!!!
I realize I am being really blunt here but this is a really important point.This is EXACTLY what you want! Rhythm is the foundation of all training.
A horse has his own natural rhythm and goes best at his own rhythm. The trick is to find that rhythm and to ride him to it. Is it the first rhythm he offers? Probably not; it is the rhythm where he is going forward and things suddenly become easy. So find that rhythm and use your posting (and metronome!)to ride him to it.
It will take time for him to build up the strength to sustain this rhythm - and there is a rhythm to every gait, right?
Next, you talked about how "He wants to get quick" and "When I circle, I find that he DrOps that shoulder more and motors."
Rhythm will change because of balance issues. Balance issues occur for a lot of reasons, including riding the horse in an unnatural rhythm, rider position, and, in the end, the horse not having enough strength.
So if you understand the rhythm and are a good enough rider to tell when he is losing balance and put him back into the rhythm so he doesn't lose balance (without losing your own balance!), bit by bit he will build up strength.... and you will see that the rhythm/balance problems slooowly go away.
This is hard to fix and it takes time but my gut agrees that September to now and still the same issue is not a good thing. Are you training your horse or teaching him being unbalanced and rushing around is the right thing to do?
Now don't go thinking I am this wonderful rider or anything - I am TERRIBLE. I can put rhythm and relaxation and a wee bit of balance on a horse but that is pretty much where my abilities end.
The upside of being such a bad rider is that I can tell you the "me, trainer, able rider" approach to training a horse WORKS - and is so much kinder to the horse I would not do it any other way.
If you are going to change trainers, then take your time and really look for someone who is going to take you where you want to go. Make sure they have credentials, make sure they can PROVE they can move riders & horses through the levels, make sure they are still doing it NOW and, well, if the price freaks you out a bit, consider the ratio of $ to results you have right now. Sometimes paying that extra $10 or $15 a lesson opens a completely different universe. (Though, in my experience, many not so good trainers charge MORE than the really good ones!!!)
Good luck!
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 9:57 am:
'''I am inclined to agree with you about training rides helping him, but I am really stuck between a rock and a hard place because she doesn't want to ride him, but also can't think of anyone that she recommends for the two months she is gone.'''
'''and trainer thinks I am being unreasonable about my expectations'''
I strongly suggest you find someone for these two months that comes highly recommended and will ride your horse.. then lets see how unreasonable you have been..
Call your local Dressage society for some input..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
maggienm
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 11:50 am:
Gwen, just a thought, sometimes because there is always further to go we just don't notice how far we have come.
To help me in this regard I will write down some of the issues the horse has, give them a rating, and make a note of some specific areas I want to work on and improve.
Sometimes if I really feel stuck I will keep a daily log, it helps me make goals and stay focused, but usually I ma not disciplined enough to write daily.
A benefit to this is being able to look back and see you have come further than you thought.
In your opening post you said he was a turkey on the lunge line.
In order to know how to address this problem you have to know if it was joy at being alive or was it an objection to having to work?
Elizabeths suggestions on posting are great.
Four is pretty young so if he is still a bit uneven in his rhythm it is forgiveable.
It took nearly a year for me to get my TB mare to stop rushing and develope some rhythm, key word
-some-.
It is hard to make a decision without actually seeing what is happening but in general I don't agree with the idea of using more hand to slow down, I would suggest trying shallow serpentines, that is, only travel a few feet one direction then change direction. The purpose here is to use the change of direction to slow him down.
I found this exercise very beneficial, it keeps the pace regular, whe the horse isn't fighting to go faster they can develope rhythm. This also relaxes them so they enjoy their work. When they enjoy their work they relax, when they relax they learn, a very good merry-go-round to be on.
You might spend a half hour doing this at first, persevere.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 8:36 pm:
Thanks again everyone! You guys are great.
My trainer got on him yesterday, and although she needed to reiterate that she was "right" about her points, she understands why I am asking (begging) for her to ride him. She also reiterated though, that she WILL NOT get on him when he is feeling fresh. I am worried that our relationship may deteriorate from here, but I am not going to stay stuck here. I appreciate that she heard me, and will continue to move forward (but not rush in the trot-heehee).
I do feel that it will be a neat learning experience to try out someone when she is traveling. The trainer I am going with does seem a bit busy with her hands and legs, but that is with a pokey little morgan (who does not seem to mind his job actually). This other trainer has raised babies, and evented with tbs, so she must be helpful, at least at this stage, right? I am thinking that she will be brave, and possibly get him some miles on the trails too, which I am kind of dreading.
BTW, no one knows of any super trainers in southeastern MA right????????
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 8:55 pm:
Gwen , well at least you made progress with 'the trainer' getting on your horse.. I DON'T like that she WON'T get on when the horse is fresh.. makes me think she is not very competent .. and that leads me to my other thought.. its good that a trainer can get on ones horse to feel what the owner is feeling or not feeling.. If this 'trainer' does not want to get on a fresh horse I am little skeptical on her abilities to ride / feel and to teach.. maybe SHE has confident issues as well.. ?
sorry..
Keep looking..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 9:07 pm:
Ann, she says that at this point in her life, she does not want to put herself in an unsafe position. It is just kind of her personal preference I guess...
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 9:26 pm:
Gwen , i can appreciate that..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 8:13 pm:
Well, I am meeting with a trainer tomorrow. Fingers crossed.
I have a question for you tb lovers. Do you all think that an ottb needs a specialized trainer who knows ottbs? Just curious.
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 8:28 pm:
Others will likely disagree, but I think not. A good trainer will train each horse individually as it is on that day. Some seem gifted with certain types of horses, but OTTB is a training history, not a disease, and they vary quite a bit as their personalities and abilities emerge. Find someone that you enjoy riding with, learn from, and (very important) someone who seems genuinely to like your horse.
|
Member:
jojo15
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 11:05 pm:
I have to jump in... elizabeth is right some of us will disagree.. i wholeheartedly think a trainer that specializes in OTTB is something you should seriously consider. At least talk to one. And tell her what you are going thru and i bet that she will be shaking her head knowing exactly what to do. ( i say she, grin... but could be a man too ).
One year off the track, not much time has evolved. 3 times a week undersaddle? I think you are making giant strides with him. and not giving yourself the credit. I don't like to hear that a trainer won't get on your horse when its "fresh". this is exactly the time you need the help the most.
but, there are just some subtle nuances to these guys that a trainer well versed in OTTB rehabbing is going to know more so than other trainers that don't solely work with them? And this psychological aspect might help you in training him. Is he 5? 6?
Is This a Florida bred horse? Turf bred? There were two breeders i know that loved that line for the sweet disposition. I saw one of them stand live cover a few times so i could learn, and they always told me this is why they have him. Always such a gentleman with the ladies... if you can get the information on him on how he was brought up you might get past these plataues you are having without the need for a new trainer. I researched the show barn mine came from. the owners. how he raced, where, and so on. i learned alot. Because you aren't just training a green horse, you are training a horse that is switching careers. And i do think its confusing to them. It also helps you to understand little things he does and then you can go aha! i get it. and then train accordingly.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 6:31 am:
Jojo, he JUST turned five yesterday (he LOOVES carrot cupcakes)! From what I could find about his past, he ran 18 times, and was not very successful. I think he came in second once. I don't have the list printed in front of me so I am trying to remember the specifics. He was born in Maryland, and raced there-not sure if that is turf or dirt. He was owned by a man named Michael Gill, who apparently got out of racing because he was being blackballed throughout the industry. He was using some questionable practices, both with claiming horses and some say, drugs. So basically in 2006, he got rid of his horses and went back to being a lawyer in NH. So Theo aka Big Poppy, ended up at Rerun Rescue with three others from one of his farms.
He appears to have been handled very well. He is such a gentleman (except when I am too rough when brushing his belly), and wants to please so badly. One thing that made me wonder about the training method though, is his antics on the lunge line. He has actually started to behave much worse than when we started. I know it is winter, and he needs to get his sillies out. But he takes off almost in the same place each time. It is a sort of spook/bolt thing. I don't know. Probably just me overthinking again.
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 7:37 am:
I dunno, Gwen. My ottb was trained by a lady who didn't specialize. She bought good jumping prospects, regardless of breed, and trained them to win. When I bought him, and through out the time I owned him, he too was a perfect gentlemen in almost every way. No doubt that he would get strong / silly sometimes, but that usually was in response to something I did wrong (I made a lot of mistakes in pure ignorance...he was my first horse).
Certainly, you probably will need to takes things a bit slower because you essentially have to start over with him and "erase" some of his previous training...but he is still a horse and one with a big heart and willingness to please. A good trainer with experience in ottbs couldn't hurt, but I don't see it as essential.
|
Member:
jojo15
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 12:03 pm:
my OTTB? nightmare in waiting.. and it wasn't her fault. simple, basic things that just were never taught to her. and i didn't know to "KNOW" and my trainers didn't know to know either, until i found one that LOVED OTTB's they were just right up her alley in terms of challenge.....
On side/off side. there is none in racing. they even pick they're feet from the same side. Tieing? never. saddle in the open? never. Left to her own devices in a pasture? never. RAIN? o my gawd.. never been in a rainstorm. Lunging? hot walker? only to the left. then you have the drugs/pinfiring/high protein feeds/large growth in short amount of time and on and on, who knows?... They are a wonderuful challenge OTTB's... I've only had one. that was more than enough for me.
little things i had to learn to understand her.
How long was he at the rehabbers?
He is 5.. he is barely learning his own balance right now. And i do recall this was an issue with me too. Always so heavy on the forehand. Never got under herself naturally. they want long on the track. We want short and collected. They want power. we want grace. This not only needs to be addressed with a young green horse, but it also needs to go backwards and then restarted with a OTTB. and you have success in a year? you just might have hit a plateau...give it time. he is just a youngin...how's his natural balance? undersaddle? on the lunge? Balance i think is everything. not yours. his. And those off the track have been taught and trained, and muscled in such a way, i think it different than what we then want from them. he has to unlearn one way, and then learn another. i think in a year that is all i achieved.
I also found mine got really bored easily. that is when i would find the trainer getting on her extremely helpful. and she might do that for a week. and me just watching her. She is training the horse? or you? she can't train a horse from the ground. She can train you from the ground. But sometimes getting on and doing it with the trainer and him, will help you and him, that is also something to address...
I also had another horse at the time, that i would learn the maneuver on, train on, understand it, and then work it on the TB. i would get the kinks out with my QH with my own lack of ability. My OTTB was that bored! if we weren't at the same level at the same time? forget it..  we'd plateau and then she'd get rank. it's pschological warfare as much as physical training. :0
Just telling you my experience owning one. what an amazing creature she was...too smart for me, that's for sure. just chill and relax. and don't be in a rush. and talk to as many racing people you can find. if for anything just the ins and outs of what they do to them so young. OTTB's really were never started. not like those that would start a horse for us. it's a whole nother ballgame.
It seems he's a jewel. and willing to try and please. maybe all that is needed is to get inside his head a bit more?
i could go on and on with my experience with mine.. so many memories rushing back...
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 12:09 pm:
Gwen I remember when you were first considering this horse. Wasn't he the one the rescue called "Fabio" because of his lush mane? Handsome boy, and I remember the gentle temperament was what you liked so much, am I right?
I'm with the majority here in thinking you DO need a trainer who will get on your horse. Sometimes having the rider just do the right cues will be a lightbulb moment for a horse. (And if this is causing you anxiety, not doubt it is for your horse,too!)
The trainer who has a lot of experience in eventing has probably had lots of experience with OTTB's, and can most likely avoid unpleasant triggers. but I don't think it's necessary to have only a trainer who has worked with them. Any good trainer will make the right thing easier than the wrong.
You will probably be surprised what a good one can do with your nice boy once they get on and show him what they want.
Looking forward to hearing about your progress!
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2008 - 9:29 am:
Grrrrr. The new girl has worked with Theo twice now. I love how confident and cool she is...BUT...her hands are reeeaally busy. Theo has definitely been thrown for a loop. I am now torn between thinking that she is too heavy-handed for us, and sitting back and letting her get through these bugaboos. He has done a few scoots/bolts with her, one of which she said was a bit of a tantrum to avoid moving off of her leg. I am worried that the behavior is him feeling trapped by her hands.
So my questions:
Does she need to ride like this to get him to the next phase (she says he will stretch down toward the bit, which he did with her at the walk nicely)?
Am I being too sensitive/protective of him? I think compared to what she is doing, we were doing pony rides (hence the lack of progress)?
THanks guys!!
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2008 - 10:41 am:
Hi Gwen,
Busy how? Can she explain to you what she is doing? Are her hands moving back towards the tail, up, down, sideways? Do you see her release?
If he's walking nicely for her, I might give her some time at the trot, where we know already he's unbalanced and wants to rush.
And, I never have asked, what kind of riding do you plan to do with him?
We have only seen the one photo, so it's hard to second-guess. In that photo, he was inverted with his jaw locked against the bit. If you were re-schooling him for dressage, it would probably require some hand busyness (of the right sort) to convince him to travel with a relaxed jaw, over his topline, and engaged into a contact.
If she's doing yank-and-spank, you'll see a lot of pulling back while driving forward, without the release.
Ask her to explain her approach, and then watch to see if what she's doing seems to match what she says.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2008 - 11:19 am:
What she had said was that she was working on getting him supple and relaxed. Then rewarding him for stretching into the bit. I don't know that I saw much release, but that could be because he wasn't stretching down. I heard a lot of "good boys", and he was certainly softening in his neck/jaw. One other thing that worried me was how she shrank his stride here and there to the point of him not coming close to tracking up. But again, that could be a step in the learning curve... I do plan to do dressage with him, but also really want to trail ride, so don't want to fry that nice brain he has so far.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2008 - 11:23 am:
Can you make a video for us.. ? Busy can be different to different folks..
Of course a horse will boot scoot when asked to work and hope to get away with it..AVOIDANCE, the key is to stay with it and let him know this IS the way of go now..
See if you can get a video and post it on UTube..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2008 - 6:24 am:
Okay, I will try to get a video. I rode him yesterday and he was actually kind of pissy at the trot and flipping his head... She is riding him twice this week. We'll see how it goes.
|
Member:
dsibley
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2008 - 7:51 am:
Just my 2-cents worth: not that I am at all well versed in dressage, but hope to begin lessons again shortly. I have a three-yr-old in reining training. What a joy to watch! In just a few rides, Sarge has learned to pick up his inside shoulder and balance better on the circle. He moves so well off the leg, and responds to seat cues. Perhaps someone with a little different perspective could give some insight into your problems? After all, isn't reining "Western Dressage"?
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2008 - 10:09 am:
Hi Gwen,
I agree with Ann- it would be nice to see video of you and of your trainer riding the horse.
The head flipping could be a number of things. It could be teeth, or temper, or frustration if he thinks you aren't meeting him in the middle.
If the trainer is doing her job, he may be objecting to your possibly less-educated hand as he tries to travel into the contact. While this woman trains the horse, who is helping you to keep up with him? Are you taking lessons with the new person?
The early stages of dressage can be sooo frustrating, for horse and rider, depending on their temperaments. And it's not for everyone. But the correctly-developed dressage horse is a joy to ride-- light and soft and powerful.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2008 - 3:51 pm:
Yes, I thought that too about the head flipping Elizabeth. His gums are a bit swollen still from his canines ? coming in, and I thought that my timing/cues may be off. She will be giving me lessons starting next week. It was just noteworthy to me that he was a bit edgy, because he has been very cooperative thus far. HOWEVER, it appears as though we haven't asked him for much.
|
Member:
dtranch
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2008 - 4:18 pm:
Gwen ... busy hands in certain training situations is not a bad thing .. but should always be soft hands. If she is busy "AND" jerking him around, I would be concerned. Otherwise, just ask what she is working on. A good trainer should explain and keep you informed. Oh yea ... a good trainer should also ride your horse.
DT
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2008 - 7:58 pm:
Hi Gwen,
So I was thinking about you while I was riding today. One thing we need to realize about dressage is that it's a pretty abstract sport. It doesn't make a lot of sense to the horse, and the initial schooling can sour them if we aren't creative in our training. A useful trick is to think about what you want to teach, and then devise an exercise where the horse will choose that behavior in order to solve a "movement problem." This can be fun.
For example, my Holsteiner mare thinks small circles in collected canter are colossally stupid. She will buck, bolt, and object in very impressive ways if you ask her to produce one for no horse-obvious reason. But she's a gifted jumper (yours may be too-- Mr. Prospector is known for producing jumpers). That means she finds obstacles interesting and doesn't like to hit them. So I devised an exercise where the canter circle was necessary in order to avoid some obstacles (see below). And she is meticulous about avoiding these obstacles at the canter, and quite pleased with herself when she gets around "clean."
So maybe start thinking about problems you can offer your nice guy that will take the focus off the bit, but will make the softening part of his solution. Lateral work, scattered ground rails, etc.. Give you both something to think about.
Here was my set-up. It allowed us to canter around the standard (can't hit the rail), and then make a short diagonal to repeat in the other direction, with lots of room for a victory round afterwards:
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2008 - 8:07 pm:
WOW , I want to ride in the nicely groomed empty arena.. !!!~~
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2008 - 8:21 pm:
You guys are so nice and thoughtful. Thank you for thinking of me, Elizabeth. You are right about the activities. One thing that keeps coming up in my research of ottbs, is that their intelligence can be a problem at times. I keep reading about how they need to be "asked" to do things rather than commanded. Activities like that are a great idea that I will try. I think it will help me not to get "stuck over him" as well. "New girl" is working him tomorrow. If I can figure out how to work my camera, and build up the guts to ask her if it's okay, I will get some footage. Hopefully this is just a bumpy transition. After several long years of striking out with my other horse, I would really love to make some progress. I wish one of you guys lived in my area!!!!!
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2008 - 8:32 pm:
Ann, you would be a welcome guest. At long last, I have an indoor, and I LOVE IT. And I can leave my weird junk spread about as well....
|
Member:
stevens
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 10:42 am:
Wow is right! What a fabulous arena.
Well, it's back out to the mud for me in So. Cal
Chris
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 11:43 am:
Chris, Chris, Chris... SoCal..? Camelot? Where you get a polite rain at night only ? Ok Ok I know this winter you all are playing catch up for years past.. but!~ Temps are always near perfect who wouldn't want to ride outside ? <smirk> We transplanted from Orange County.. ahh I miss the weather down thar.. Up here in N.Ca.. we have 107 degree summers heating up before 10 AM.. with cold WET non polite winters.. heheehe..
... but a freshly groomed arena with 'toys' set out .. well its a dream come true ....
... for some..
opps but I digressed from the topic
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
cgby1
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 1:40 pm:
Ann,
I agree about the temps, we are spoiled but my arena is unusable. It is completely saturated and we are supposed to be partly cloudy all week so I don't know when it will dry enough to use it. We have had more rain than Seattle this winter, according to the weather people. A few years ago when we had the second wettest year in recorded history (almost a tie) L.A. got 36 inches. My area, the Santa Rosa Plateau received 55 inches.
Cynthia
|
Member:
sarahb47
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 2:45 pm:
Ah, rain, yes. Here in Hilo we get 120 to 140 inches per year, depending on which gulch you live next to. And no indoor arenas, except for a few very fortunate folks. (Though UH-Hilo is trying to get its act together to create an equestrian center, and they do have an unfinished covered arena, not yet being used.)
Here on the windward side of the Big Island, if you don't ride in the rain, you don't ride. So we plan arena footing with major drainage capabilities, invest in synthetic tack and medicated shampoo to combat the mold and rainrot, and keep riding. Or load the horses into the trailer and drive three hours to the dry side of the island, where they get less than ten inches of rain a year.
Back to Gwen's discussion about training: My feeling about the video is that it's your horse, if you want to take a video as part of the learning process, you should simply say so and do it. If the "new girl" isn't comfortable with that, then ask someone else to videotape YOU riding him or longeing him.
Training routines -- With a new or green horse, I always do some work in hand before longeing, asking the horse to walk forward, halt, back a few steps, step away from sideways pressure on the ribcage, perhaps walk over ground poles or even some trail course obstacles like bridge and tires -- all to get his attention focused on me, watch what his feet and body are doing, and establish the idea of working and listening.
Some points on longeing -- I consider longeing to be training, not just exercise, so I always longe with some sort of saddle or surcingle, plus a bridle and sidereins. The sidereins may be adjusted fairly long on a greenie, but still adjusted so he knows they're there. They help an energetic, unbalanced or distractable horse stay straight, and keep him from flinging his head or producing unrestricted bucks. Depending on the horse and the way he travels, I may use standard sidereins (for a horse who has some flex and softness in the poll) or sliding sidereins, similar to "vienna longe reins" or "european balancing reins" (for the horse who raises his head and hollows his back).
Then we go out on the longe and work at a trot until it gets almost boring. I don't fuss over what kind of trot at first -- any trot will do, though I'll push him a bit if it's too lazy. If I get an energetic canter and explosion, I bring him in and do the work in hand again, then return to the longe for more trotting, etc.
After the horse begins to relax and stretch through his back, even a little bit, THEN I ask for walk-trot and walk-halt transitions on the longe. Transitions create more bounce, roundness and energy, which you don't want to ask for until he's stopped offering too much bounce!
After I see relaxation and some prompt transitions, I may shorten the sidereins a little to ask for just a shade more correction, and then vary the size of the longe circle so he may have to spiral in or out and work a little harder to maintain the same rhythm, or lengthen the trot along a long straight line. I may also lengthen the sidereins and ask him to trot over cavaletti, gradually adjusting the distance between the poles so he finds a strong lengthened stride.
Total time on the longe for each session is no more than 20 minutes for a baby or out-of-shape greenie, maybe 40 minutes with varied exercises for a more experienced horse.
I've had a number of OTTBs, including a present almost-3-yr-old who was started in training at the track but never tattooed -- they gave up on her after a month or two because she's big (16.1 and not done growing), awkward, sweet-tempered and lazy. She never should have been started so young, but apparently no harm was done. She's the perfect TB because she's very good-minded and has been exposed to lots of stuff at the track, but never actually went through the stresses of racing. (And she seems to thrive on wet, muddy pasture and lava rock -- no rainrot, no hoof abscesses, very happy in the mud.)
One other point -- Gwen, has your horse ever been treated for ulcers? My experience has been that a course of antacids doesn't hurt, and it can help clear up a lot of fidgety, nervous, inconsistent behavior. If the horse's tummy hurts, he can't concentrate on work.
One gelding I owned previously had been raced for two years, and had a host of physical problems including a sore back from rainrot and nervous, fence-walking behavior from ulcers. Antacids, free-choice grass hay and good care helped.
I also found that Dr Cook's bitless bridle was great to help him learn to relax and not run against the bit. Doesn't work for all horses, but I've found it to be a useful tool for some.
And he'd never been taught to stand for mounting -- they just tossed the jockey up as the horse danced by, I guess. Took me six months and more than a few carrots, but he figured it out. His idea of loading into a trailer was to walk calmly in, then explode out backwards, because I think it reminded him of a starting gate, where you walk in, stand for a few seconds and then charge out. He couldn't charge forward out of the trailer, so he charged backwards, thinking that was the right response. THAT took longer than 6 months to fix, but eventually he became a model traveler.
Sorry for the long post but it's raining here (surprise!) and I suspect we won't be riding this morning. Sprinkles, showers and moderate rain are fine, but torrential downpours are discouraging, to say the least.
Sarah (Hilo, HI)
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 3:46 pm:
Thanks Sara (and everyone else for the weather reports ). I have the video camera ready, and we are going over to the barn in little while.
Regarding ulcers or anxiety-type behavior, I will definitely keep it in mind, but don't really see him as terribly worried in general. He has upped it a notch since the weather went downhill, and he can't kick up his heels during turnout. (He actually decided to mount his old man friend a few times, and tore the poor old guy's blanket. Now he has been relegated to a small paddock alone. I can't go there right now though.) Anyway, he isn't the fence-walking, weaving type. He is spooky and frisky now-moreso than before, but it doesn't strike me as anxiety-related (I could be very wrong.) But I will definitely keep that in my bonnet if any anxiety-type behavior rears its ugly head.
We have not used side-reins yet. My trainer doesn't like them. She feels that it is a false sense of accomplishment, and that they can hurt themselves if acting up on the lungeline. The "new girl" does use them, but she uses ones that go over his poll, through the bit and attach to the saddle. I think it encourages them to stretch down-sort of like a neck-stretcher/side rein combo. She has not used them yet on Theo.
I went back to ground work with him especially before working him and see a definite difference-no s*#@, Gwen.
Wish me luck tonight! I hope this girl works out, because I want to make some growth and enjoy my horse!!!!
Thanks again so much for all of your words of wisdom, everyone.
|
Member:
maggienm
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 5:04 pm:
I would love the oportunity to video my trainer riding my horse, it would be a great to see how the horse is moving, responding, watch in slow mo what is happening, a point of reference to look back at.
your trainer shouldn't object to any of these reasons to video.
one thing I thought of as I was reading your post, you mentioned that it didn't seem the trainer was giving much release. A dressage trainer may not give as much release as other trainers, but as long as release is happening the horse knows.
Kind of wondering out loud...many horses that are being riden, even competing, still have 'holes' in their basic trainging, which can, for instance, result in lack of confidence or confusion which in turn can lead to rushing or tenseness.
My last mare, who was hot by any standard, came to me after years of competing, she could do flying changes no problem but she didn't know how to do a simple turn on the fore, put her head down to bridle or back up under saddle, to name a few things. After months of basic work she finally started to reach down to the bit and stretch forward when she moved and develope rhythm.
Can't wait to see the video.
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 5:25 pm:
Sarah Blanchard, I read your training suggestions, and I have a question for you. I have been using side reins with bit for longeing and some ring riding on my youngster. But I really love the Dr. Cook's bitless bridle--she does too. I don't get all the play with bit and head tossing that she does witht the bit.
So the question is, do you longe with the Dr. Cook's? How do you set it up? It seems to me that I am possibly confusing my mare by switching so I have even cut way back on the ring stuff in favor of trail where I always ride bitless.
I would love to figure out being able to do our groundwork bitless, since that's how I prefer to ride.
Thanks, I am learning a lot from this thread even though it's your horse, Gwen.
Erika
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 9:03 pm:
AAahhh! I have the video, I finally got it to download (I think). And I can't do anything with it!
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2008 - 8:02 pm:
If anyone would like to see Theo's video, please feel free to let me know on here, and I will email it to you. I am such a moron, I can't figure out how to decrease the length of the video. Apparently, it has to be shorter than it is in order to be downloaded onto youtube. I don't want to impose the video on anyone unless you offer up your services. THanks! Oh, I guess you could email me too. That way, I could just respond the message. gDrObison@comcast.net
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2008 - 7:50 pm:
Here is Mr. Theo in action:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fjUJZEBp7A
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2008 - 8:24 pm:
Gwen, what a sweet, quiet horse Theo looks like! (fire the cameraman though!).
He looks to me like a typical "kid" getting used to being on the bit. I don't see anything jerky about the rider, I think she is giving him a lot of slack most of the time.
Are you longeing him with side reins? Forgive me if I missed it. It wonder if he would figure out the comfort zone for his bit easier that way?
Racehorses are taught that taking hold of the bit is the signal to run. I see he scooted a bit at the end of the video, but I couldn't see what caused it. I think it takes a while to get rid of old reactions.
He looks like a gentleman, his ears are listening to the rider. I bet he moves along well with a little time, Gwen.
I bet some of our resident HA trainers will have more insight for you. But those are my observations. Best of luck to you and Theo.
Erika
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2008 - 8:25 pm:
I am a little dizzy after watching that.. Gwen you need a steadier hand for videoing.. hehhee ..
From what I can 'see' is that there really is no connection from the rider to the bit.. you can see the reins are loopy .. when she has 'some' connection you see the horse 'try' to come together.. What is happeing without that solid connection is the horse is getting bumped in the mouth over and over.. with a solid connection the bump is gone ..
Also HANDS TOGETHER AND DOWN.. she has her hands by her thighs which does not help with the steady connection..
He is going forward nicely , he needs a consistent feel and he will get it.. you can see that much clearly..
I will take a look again later once I get my equilibrium back
''HANDS TOGETHER AND DOWN.. ''
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
paardex
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 4:36 am:
I do not intend to be impolite but imo if he doesn't walk freely on the bit [and in the video I haven't seen it] why try or expect it in trot?
Jos
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 6:22 am:
SO sorry about the camera "man"! I was trying to manage my little Gracie at the same time.
Thanks so much for watching. And for giving feedback.
Jos, that is a little bit of my concern.
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 7:53 am:
OK, someone find me some Dramamine!...Just teasing Gwen.
He really does look like a sweet heart who is trying to figure out what he is supposed to do.
Was the reason for the low, wide hands at the beginning of the video (during walk) to get Theo to stretch down?
I would not ask for the walk to trot transition when his head is so high up in the air and he is hollow. It's re-inforcing a bad habit. The rider should wait for a good moment of walk before asking for trot. When he is trotting, and his head comes up, she should use a strong inside leg or put him on a circle to help him sink back into the bit
I agree that there doesn't seem to be a very steady feel on the reins, but it was difficult to tell for sure.
Gwen, he looks like a horse that is just trying to understand what is expected of him. I think time and consistency are what he needs to make a wonderful companion for you.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 9:11 am:
Thanks Fran.
I forgot to thank you too, Erika for your kind words about my boy. Thanks so much. He is a gem.
So does everyone think "status quo" with the training technique?
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 9:13 am:
I don't know beans about English riding, as in being able to ride in an English saddle. And dressage to me is a light horse who moves where I want him to...meaning I get side passes, and all those impressive sounding moves, but I don't know if I am doing them correctly; as in what leg is crossing where type of thing.
What I wanted to add from watching the video is I'd back up a ways and not ask for the trot right now. He needs to be walking with a nice free swinging through the back walk. Then I'd take contact with the reins, ask for him to give vertically. I'd do some of the things Clinton Anderson always yaps about, the lateral flexation. Lots of that before asking for vertical. I spend a lot of time just on those things. You'll see me just sitting on a horse in the middle of the arena (BTW, I am soo jealous, what a beautiful indoor arena...mine has about 15" of snow in it!!!) asking for little gives on each side. Then small circles, asking him to hold his head to the side where you want it, loose rein, head towards your knee.
I think, getting the softness that way first, is better than trying to get the rhythmn established with contact which is what I think I see in the video.
I'd then ask for a trot, and let him find it on a loose rein, using the one rein stop, or the fence, to slow him down if he breaks out of the trot. I don't think CA is my favorite trainer, but some of these things do serve a purpose. If the horse is relaxed, and confident he is doing the right thing before you start asking him to understand MORE, I just think it works out better.
Work on getting his body to move away from your leg; at the hunches, at his middle, do many things at the walk, or stand still. I don't know the why of why this all helps, but amazingly, in a week or 2, I think you'll find that his trot will be so much better. If the rider keeps the hands soft and steady of course.
Long before any clinicians were out there, or before HA, I tried to ride my horses with a loose rein, (not jump rope loose) unless I was going to ask them for something new. I still do that, and now I know a little bit more about collection, and all, but I still believe in a more slack rein with contact only for mere seconds at a time; that is how I work on the trot.
I think it's too much for a young horse to try and balance himself, hold the rythmn a rider is asking, and have contact on his mouth too. You might even want to back up and NOT steer for a session or 2!
Just some ideas to consider. Enjoying learning from a handsome sweet looking horse.
|
Member:
dtranch
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 9:14 am:
OK ... having seen the video, here are my thoughts. Very nice horse who is confused and trying to find himself, and his comfort zone on the bit. Problem is, when he finds it, he is not released and rewarded, so he immediately tries something else.
My suggestion would be hundreds of lateral and vertical flexes with much praise and reward for each real try (at the halt and walk only).
Once he is comfortable with the flexes, then I would proceed to the trot. In the video, it appears that when he pulls his head up, the riders hands just go up with it, then pull back down. I try to keep my hands soft and consistent so that when he pushes head up, he initiates contact, when he brings back down, he feels a release. If he is not getting release and reward in either position, he is confused. Once again, lots of lateral and vertical flexes at the trot including 1 reins stops followed by a good lateral "give" on each side and a big praise and reward for each try.
Hard to tell from video, but these are my thoughts.
DT
|
Member:
paardex
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 9:15 am:
I agree with the others he seems a nice horse trying but not understanding at the moment.
I would certainly give him time AND let him try the bit on the lungerein. A gogue let's them imo figure out themselves how they can search for the bit without being bothered by [the weight of] the rider.
Jos
|
Member:
mandrie
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 9:54 am:
I just wanted to thank Gwen for posting the video, and those who have posted helpful comments. I am learning so much from the discussion, as I have a young horse just learning as well.
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 9:56 am:
This thread is getting interesting. I don't find the video nearly as objectionable as everyone else, and would be inclined to give this girl some more time. She is not an especially creative rider, but I think she is being fair and patient with this very nice guy. I have seen her methods work on similar horses, and used them myself on scooting giraffe types.
There are many ways to train a horse, so I don't want to pick a fight. Gwen did say she was interested in dressage, so I'm going to view the video from that perspective. This is also a horse that is being re-trained, not started, so he may benefit from a different approach than a green horse.
First, the walk. The walk is a gait that is often ruined by over schooling before the horse is educated. I like that she is mostly leaving him alone. A horse that is defensive in the mouth and travels like a giraffe needs an educated trot before you fool with the walk or the transitions. If he can't find and carry a contact in the trot, he has no chance in the walk/trot transition or the walk. Trying to put the horse "on the bit" at the walk would be counter-productive, since there is no impulsion to help send him into the rein. Especially for dressage-- do not ruin the walk! It is very hard to fix later.
As far as a contact, he isn't ready. He doesn't know yet how to relax his jaw. What I see this rider doing, is asking him to relax his inverted death grip on the bit, and releasing immediately to reassure him that he won't be grabbed at if he does so. We used to call this the "knock-knock" phase-- you are rattling the bit to say: hello-- can you relax your hold on this please? Nothing bad is going to happen.
He needs to carry the bit before he carries a contact. Take a contact now and he will either scoot or lean. He first needs to understand that the bit is ok if it moves, and he needs to figure out for himself that there is an easier way to travel. Some rails and figures would help a lot, but he'll get it this way too.
Denny's suggestions are good, except that in dressage we never break the connection at the withers. So it's a sport specific thing, and will cause no end of trouble down the road (at first and second level) if he learns this now. It is perfectly useful and appropriate for other sports.
Sorry for the rant. I think this guys is going to be ok.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 10:09 am:
Thanks again guys. Elizabeth, thanks for piping in. I really don't have an opinion necessarily because I am new at this particular endeavor. I will say though, that I was at the beginning phase of an anxiety attack with a few posts.
As someone has said, "there are many ways to skin a cat." Maybe we will get to where we want to go with this.
Keep the feedback coming, though because I love it-especially the parts where people say they like my horse.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 10:53 am:
Thank you Elizabeth, you beat me to it.. I was thinking the same thing Gwen wants to ride dressage.. ... the walk is easy to ruin if you ask to much on a green horse, So I too, would be schooling this horse in a nice forward trot and leave the walk alone on a loose rein for a bit..
LIke Elizabeth says, you want the horse to carry the bit without worry.. We call it 'acceptance of the bridle' .. once a horse understands that he will not be getting bumped every time he seeks contact he will accept / take it with confidence... none of this happens over night.. its about gaining strength / balance and confidence...
I think with you asking and seeking help, it will all come together ... it CAN be very frustrating... but it will be very rewarding when you get that feel..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
paardex
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 11:47 am:
Different opinion and totally from dressage point of view[just to confuse Gwen]
He doesn't seem forward in the walk [my first demand] and doesn't even to seem looking for the bit which is what most horses start to do in a relaxed forward movement
Jos
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 12:24 pm:
Elizabeth,
What do you mean about breaking the connection at the withers? I am reading that to mean for training a horse in dressage, you never want him to go on a loose rein and balance himself that way? Or ever do the lateral flexings?
I am taking it to mean if we followed Denny's suggestions, which is what I try to do, although with not as much experience as he has, we can never expect a horse trained that way to be a dressage horse?
Please clarify, I've never heard that before and find it interesting, and want to know WHY?
Also not trying to fight here, just I think that when one is having problems, going back, back as far as necessary to re start the learning process, is always a good idea. I'd pretend the horse wasn't previously schooled at all, and start over.
And I'd suggest lots and lots of miles just cruising the countryside at a walk, later a trot. After winter allows it of course!
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 1:21 pm:
Hi Angie,
Oh, never say never! But if he is intended for dressage, it will be easier not to teach him things that you know you will have to correct later-- just seems more fair.
In dressage, lateral flexion does not come from the neck, it comes nose to tail, and we teach it when the horse is ready to elevate and move his shoulders (as in the shoulder fore) and his haunches (as in the horrid-but-necessary renvers).
We do want the horse to balance himself-- they call it self-carriage-- but it's a dynamic balance that should accept a contact without losing the balance (falling forward) or the impulsion (sucking back).
Before a horse is ready for those movements, he first needs to be able to move his rib cage (leg yield) while maintaining a steady forward rhythm and movement. And he needs to be in a nice self-carriage.
If you train a horse to bring his head and neck around as lateral flexion, that is what he will offer later, and it's quite difficult to teach him the other movements, since head-and-neck is easier for the horse than shoulder-fore etc..
It's not that you ruin the horse, but I hate teaching them something that will suddenly be wrong later. I don't school a classic one-rein stop for that reason, because I need my horses to stop straight, so I've had to find other ways to get that emergency brake in them.
And Jos-- I'm not saying I love the walk we see. I just think working the trot will improve that walk until he's ready to be schooled at the walk. I've never met a TB that appreciated suggestions at the walk, so I think he needs some more education so as not to cause conflict over something that will come naturally with time.
Gwen-- I think we all agree that he is a very nice horse. If he were mine, I'd offer him some rails and small stuff to jump. Mr. Prospector produced a lot of handy jumpers, and he might really enjoy it. Jumping is fabulous for teaching them how to balance and use themselves. Just don't come forward and don't hit that bit. He is going to be a great horse.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 1:38 pm:
Thanks again, ELizabeth-and EVERYONE else. Every post is a great learning experience for me-and apparently Marianne too.
We have been offering some ground poles to him on the lunge line. It helps to keep him focused and to use himself better, rather than just running around in a circle. I will keep all of this in mind, and keep everyone posted.
|
Member:
paardex
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 3:04 pm:
Also not trying to pick a fight Elizabeth[why should we different opinions also teaches something from time to time]BUT had you said tail to nose I would agree. First thing any but especially a dressage horse should do is go forward freely I think calm balanced and relaxed forward, and thuogh I havent worked much TBs they excelled in walk in this because their walk often is so good. I think between no contact and giving we have the simple contact which is what I would like to see.[Strange but the young horse who was the most difficult for me to achieve this was my little arab she walks with her head higher then I am used to and I needed to learn contact can be higher up too] I found that achieving the same situation in trot certainly where we have to work the horse on a circle is more difficult for the horse the result often being that the horse even if he is 'giving' takes the bit for a little help to maintain his rythm and balance. I know a lot of riders do not mind this because it will get better if the horse progresses but you need to be a good rider to help a horse.
Me being very average as a rider I don't take the risk first train the horse on calm balanced circles in trot[here I do agree with you Elizabeth siderains in walk imo are often ruining the walk] free forward movement in walk and then under the saddle first the free forward movement in walk with a light contact, same in trot and then trot 'giving' under the saddle.
Surprising thing is I found the French riders I met lately [trained by Patrice Delaveau] insist on this sequence saying that with horses with a lot of blood it is neccesary to muscle up the back and evade the horse trying to hard and in a later stage 'rolling himself up'. This insight surprised me as normally french riders in Europe are not famous for the subtlety of their hands. As all types of horses evolve so fast I suppose the training system shifts a little bit too.
And please if I seem incorrect or impolite remember I have to translate and in discussions like this it is easy to misunderstand what someone is meaning[which is why your video was so helpful Gwen]
Sorry it got a bit long
Jos
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 4:12 pm:
Hmmmm....Makes sense I guess. Think I'll ponder that and most likely stay away from "true arena Dressage" as it's getting waaay to complicated for this cowgirls brain, lol!
Gwen, best of luck, let us know what works and didn't work...maybe an updated video in the future?
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 4:28 pm:
Hi Jos,
Is this Patrice Delaveau the jumper/eventer? You describe a very interesting approach. I think for a very accomplished rider, there are many ways to train a horse. Probably the greatest gift is to modify the approach depending on the capabilities and temperament of each horse.
For the average rider, especially someone who is schooling alone, I still think it's better to school the walk only after the trot is more educated, since the trot is more forgiving of rider mistakes, and is much easier to fix if things go wrong. Also in the US there are many people who just walk forever in "circles of death" which must be terribly boring and frustrating for the horse. I have a boarder who does this, and I have seen her mare actually doze off as she shuffles along!
I love that there is such a diverse group of people and experience on HA. I only wish I could come see some of the things I hear about, so I could understand them better.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 5:14 pm:
I'm a western rider also, but worked at an eventing barn with a very talented trainer. They had many ottb they would buy and retrain for eventing. When starting the tb's the trainer worked on a rythimic trot...no contact so to speak. He would do serpentines, walk, trot transitions until the horse was rythimic and relaxed. This part of the training took weeks to mos. depending on the horse.
His next step was contact on the bit. He would start out with what was taught in step one, Then ask for a couple collected strides and release...back to relaxed and rythimic...and repeat. He never let them get to the point of inverting or head tossing....the release came before it could happen. Honestly this guy was an amazing trainer and taught me alot. This process worked for him everytime...even with the jug heads. Some were collecting within a week, some it took mos. Patience paid off this guy always won the dressage tests. He did hate side reins...said they taught more bad habits than good especially in the wrong hands.
|
Member:
paardex
|
Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2008 - 4:07 am:
Yes Elizabeth, he is coming over to train the two young riders and the horses he sent back for a holiday to Haras de Brullemail[all horses have 'Mail' after their names Jaguar Mail the champion of the world stallion of this year being the best at the moment] frequently and I really am amazed how calm and slowly they bring the horses on. Roland Angot trains someone else at the stables and has even for my untrained eyes a very different approach but that owner has Argentinus blood as his favourite[much heavier Hanoverian].
Thing is with a talented rider and or coach I suppose you could be upside down on the horse and still do better then I am doing at my very best. Please send your boarder over to put some of the horses to sleep! She would be useful!
But I do agree with you it serves no purpose circling in whatever gait[I suppose they choose walk because it is the least dangerous ] and bore the poor horse to dead. Nicolas[the young rider who trains my gelding at the moment] took him as soon as he could sit on him outdoors for walks but I would never ever have been able to do that! Good system but you should know your own limitations. I suppose that's a good conclusion: the system should be adapted to our limitations which in my case are bigger then the horses and the only thing we can do is suggest all kinds of different approaches so everyone can look for the one who suits her/him best.
I do like the fact though that everyone on this board [like in Dennis's post for instance] explains so very well what reasoning is behind their method.
Diane wish I could have seen that trainer work!
Jos
|
Member:
36541
|
Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2008 - 9:41 am:
Hi Gwen. Congratulations, there is a lot to like about your horse. He has good natural rhythm, and a soft eye. He is, however, starting(or maintaining) some muscling on the underside of his neck that is not helpful. I would spend some time on the lunge in medium sidereins, letting him use that lovely trot while he plays with the bit on his own. Remember that however you choose to attach him to the lunge, it should not involve the bit. If you don't have a cavesson, a halter over the headstall will work. Take the reins off the bridle for less clutter. Encourage a forward trot on a 20-30 meter circle, and spend time with his voice commands for up and down transitions. I think I have read the whole post, but don't recall what bit you have him in? I start mine in a free-ring snaffle, medium thick, with two joints in the middle. There are many variations on this bit, but it is very forgiving. How are his brakes in general?
Based on this video, I think your instincts were correct that you could be a bit further along by now. No matter which trainer you work with, I think you have some excellent ideas for cat-skinning on this post, and can be a very educated and involved rider and trainer. Best wishes for all the fun ahead! Stacy
|
Member:
amara
|
Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2008 - 10:10 am:
Hi Gwen
finally had time to sit down and watch the video. What a cutie!.. As a dressage trainer myself I dont see anything about this trainer that particularly bothers me. He is acting like he's still trying to figure things out. His head tossing is not bad at all, and is to be expected considering how little he appears to know. Considering how long you've had him I agree that he should be farther along. You're not asking for brain surgery here. Moving along in a comfortable balanced frame is pretty easy for a horse, and honestly, pretty easy to train. Give this new gal some time, I think you'll see a pretty big difference pretty soon. I pretty much agree with everything Elizabeth had to say. I think we probably train the same way.
Lunging can be a good way to help him develop the muscles he needs, but only if you know how to do it right.. i personally wouldnt do very many walk trot transitions at this point because he doesnt know how to do them correctly and you'll only be reinforcing doing them wrong.
i think you've got a cute horse and he'll be fine! have fun! i always thought this was the best part!
|
Member:
carlaa
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 4, 2008 - 10:49 am:
Hi Qwen. I have some thoughts about Mr. Theo. I would really like to give you the titles and authors of 2 books that are amazingly simple and clear. They are actually fun to read. Really fun.
Dressage in Lightness, Speaking the Horse's Language By Sylvia Loch. She is British.
Cross- Train Your Horse, Book one. Simple Dressage For Every Horse, Every Sport by Jane Savoie. She is American. She also has other books and some great videos out there. There will be a new video out in the next few days about training young horses. I believe it is called The Happy Horse. I saw a 20 minute snippet of it and am really excited to get it.
These books will clarify the weaknesses in the training that your instincts are seeing. There is an exercise to show every horse the way, to show the horse what response you want, to set the horse up to "win". There are movements (shoulder fore, shoulder-in, haunches-in etc.) to develop balance and strength. Using these tools means that you do not have to fight with your horse, means your horse does not have to become tense, resistant, confused, frustrated, angry, explosive, means your horse can move with joy.
Ask your trainer what exercises she is using to get relaxation, rhythm, and acceptance of the bit. Ask your trainer if she has a plan. Ask your trainer if she is following the dressage training scale/ pyramid. That is your bible.
Getting the round in the neck is not the starting point. Ask her what the starting point is. Roundness is not the starting point. But, when roundness is addressed, it starts at the horses' engine. It is the tucking of the pelvis (think bad dog, tail between the legs); a rainbow roundness of the loin behind the saddle, legs under the body of the horse and not trailing out behind the whirl bones. The horse bends the hind leg while it carries the horses' weight on the ground. When the horse bends the joints of the hind legs(while carrying the weight of the horse) the croup lowers. I'm 5'2". I bend the joints in my legs, I become 5". When the croup lowers, the withers then become/seem higher. The horse feels as if you are riding uphill with power. As one end of the see saw goes down, the other end goes up. And it doesn't come from the reins. Every time one uses the reins to stop, turn slow down, one stops the hind legs from coming forward. The coming forward of the legs under the body is part of roundness and collection. Stopping this forwardness of the hind legs is the antithesis of athleticism and dance. Therefore, other body parts do those jobs, not your hands. Notice how Theo uses uses his head when he walks. He's athletic. He wants to walk big, swing his back, track up. In order to do that, he needs to use his head for balance. He needs to stretch it down and out and then, up and back at every single step. And so he does, but your trainer does not follow with her arms. Her elbows are locked. Therefore, one sees a loop in the reins as his head comes back and up and then a snatch in his mouth as he pushes his head down and out. Her hands do not belong to the horse's mouth. Her contact is not elastic, alive. Instead it is wooden. Her hands are not independent of her body. He hates it and so would I.
Ask your trainer how she uses her body to show the horse what she is trying to attain. Does she ask for the inside eye when she is turning, circling? Does she know that a horse finds it uncomfortable to say "yes" and "no" at the same time? So, if the rider has an inside eye, it is uncomfortable for the horse to raise his head; likewise, if the horse has a raised head and one can coax an inside eye, the head will lower. Does she simply ride around and around and around endlessly while endlessly fiddling with his mouth? Or, does she have immaculately quiet hands and lets the exercises and patterns show the horse the way? Think of a bird in a wind storm who is trying to land on a branch whipping around in the wind. Think of a branch as soft and steady on a windless day on a tree. Which branch would you land on? Which branch would you hold in your mouth? Hard for a horse to roll up and perch on a thrashing branch. Pleasant for the horse to roll up and perch on a soft steady branch. The contact needs to be inviting. One more analogy and then I'll go away.... Imagine you are driving to a specific destination. You have a passenger and she has directions! You must drive fast on a crowded highway, you must drive slowly through a crowded city. All the while getting directions from the passenger, while she is banging a fork on your teeth! Hard to focus, hard to drive, hard to learn, and gone is the desire to learn.
The books will be so much clearer and I do go on. So sorry. Hope I gave you some thoughts....c.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 4, 2008 - 7:26 pm:
Whoa, Carla. That was a lot to take in! I had to read that a few times, but you shared some super info! I own Cross-Training Your Horse and should reread it. For some reason, I love the picture of the rider and horse on the front cover. That is what I picture for a "final package".
I actually went to a sport psychologist today, and had some great conversations about my current status. One thing that I realized today that was so poignant, is that you can't learn to swim by reading about swimming. I need to take more ownership of this in terms of taking risks myself with riding.
|
Member:
carlaa
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2008 - 10:34 am:
Hi, Gwen. Hope I didn't make it worse. I worried a lot when I wrote it- too long, too complicated...My goal was mostly to to raise questions, see that there are many options, pique interest.
Cross-training book 2 is also a goodie. Both books address how training (dressage in French) helps every horse/every sport, from trail riding to competitive trail riding.
If one does not have access to a trainer, a second best is to read as much as you can, feel it, ride in your mind, then get on your horse.
The other book by Sylvia Loch is really great for lightness of connection/reins. It's about how one uses the body to stop, slow, turn, collect, so that the horse loves and trusts the hands.
I was reading in a local magazine, in 9/06 and 10/06 how 2 contestants won their classes. At the QH world, a 17 yr old girl rode in the western reining class and half way through, she removed her bridle and finished the pattern, won her class to a standing ovation. I was so impressed!
The next month I read that a girl won a western reining class at a big App show. She rode the entire pattern bareback and with no bridle! I was beyond impressed!
Sylvia Loch also wrote a book about the history of dressage. The history of how dressage has evolved from the Iberian Peninsula (bull fighting etc.), following the adventurers to what is now Mexico, then up into the western part of the US and influenced our cowboys and our western riding, is fascinating.
Here's a book on dressage exercises. 101 Dressage Exercises for Horse and Rider by Jec Aristotle Ballou.
I, too, think you're going to be fine. You have a good eye, you're dedicated and willing to work, and you have a horse with a lot of potential and is kind.
oh dear. so sorry. went on again. c.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2008 - 12:55 pm:
No Carla, it was great. Thank you.
I have actually had two super rides. One was in lesson yesterday, and the other was this morning when I rode him alone. I have to remember these days when I have a few "backslides", which is bound to happen.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Sunday, Feb 10, 2008 - 9:30 pm:
I thought I would update you on the "Chronicles of Theo". He has reverted back to trying the foot plant work-avoidance behavior. My trainer didn't know that this was in his bag of tricks, so she gently worked him through it on Friday. I have seen this before though, and have learned that it is a strategy he has when faced with adversity. He clearly shows confusion/anxiety/uncertainty when being asked to "carry himself"(which is completely normal from what I hear), and is learning (I think) that the running isn't really working-and neither is the head up in the air thing. So now he is trying to stop-with a valiant effort at authority-and won't move. He is actually quite stubborn! I am pretty certain that it is naughtiness because it appears to be after about fifteen to twenty minutes of riding work, always to the right, and it begins as we walk through the center of the ring-RIGHT WHERE I USUALLY DISMOUNT. I actually have to get after him pretty good, and he does eventually give in and comply, which is of course, met with much praise.
I think I will change his routine and start off going right. He is so funny.
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2008 - 12:10 am:
Hi Gwen,
Sounds right that he doesn't get to call time out whenever it occurs to him to be done. Just make sure that this young guy isn't signaling boredom. It's hard to keep things interesting in the winter, but early dressage training can be super dull to young horses. It'd be a shame to sour sweet Theo.
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2008 - 7:37 am:
One thing my trainer recently mentioned to me was this: do not go more than once completely around the track, without shaking things up a bit i.e, change direction, make a transition (gait to gait or within the gait), add a circle, etc...appropraite to the level of work you are doing. Keeps the horse listening and alleviates that boredom. And I'm sure you've already thought of this Gwen, but start mounting and dismounting in different spots every time.
|
Member:
carlaa
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2008 - 8:59 am:
yayyyyy Fran!!!
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2008 - 4:22 pm:
Yup, you guys are right. I actually got off in the corner yesterday-somewhere he NEVER expected. I will continue to change things up, but am a bit curious as to him being bored. I agree that going around and around is lame and can get them sour. However, what we are doing is so new for him, and he is learning soo much about these very basic things (over his center, reasonably consistent tempo, turning off of my aids, etc) it sort of defies logic a bit to me. Not trying to be argumentative, just having a hard time grasping. I mean, we are only working for ten minutes in each direction, with several transitions during that time. I feel like he may not have the opportunity to be bored. But of course, I am probably wrong! I will try your suggestions. hmmmm
|
Member:
juliem
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2008 - 6:32 pm:
But Gwen, while it seems to you there is a lot going on, from his perspective, you're still just going around the same ring. He's not going anywhere, literally and figuratively. It sounds as if this guy needs to go on a trail ride, or at least hack out a bit before or after the ring work. I agree, it sounds as if he's becoming a bit sour.
|
Member:
juliem
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2008 - 6:35 pm:
Just read something that applies--his stopping and refusing to move "means something." Heres the quote: "This is why I train horses. They don't speak words, they just move. They lift their heads, twitch their ears, swish a tail, lean to one side or the other. They run away. Or they don't move forward at all and rear straight up. It all means something. I understand conversations like this. Horses speak volumes without saying a word."
--Judy Renee Singer in Still Life With Elephant
|
New Member:
tbowner4
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2008 - 6:59 pm:
You probably need to check out the bottom line muscles. Your statement of his not liking the belly messed with may be the key to his problem.
He may be a little sore there. Sounds like the bottom line aren't muscled adequately; this may be the reason your trainer is hesitating somewhat. If only working with him the time frames that you have, I would say that you have made tremendous advancement from the career move and time off due to inactive muscle development. I would start with vertical laterals, and abdominal stretches, a weight belt with weights, smallest to start, on side to develop the bottom line. I would also start with other basics to prep for the lounge line. I am assuming that you have already done these things but when progression is not moving, back up and start new.
Something may have been missed.
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2008 - 8:55 pm:
Think of it this way, Gwen. As an OTTB, his work outs were probably quite short. They breeze them on the track for a few minutes (lots to look at because it's out doors) and then on another day, he's racing, for what...2 minutes? Again, lots to look at.
So now, you've given him a new job, which probably to him seems like you're endlessly going in circles. Ten minutes in one direction is a long time, particularly at a lower level precisely because he doesn't know enough for you to be able to do a lot of the more complicated stuff, such as lateral work or extensions, etc.
You are building him up slowly, which is exactly as it should be. But whatever you can do to mix it up will help keep you both interested.
My mare is an old schoolmaster who knows quite a lot more than I do (OK, a TON more than I do). As I work to get ME up to her level, I can tell at times that she zones out and goes on auto pilot. She's not naughty and obediently goes for me, but at such times, I can tell that her "spark" is not there. Thus my trainer telling me to mix it up more. We too are stuck inside all winter and it's not an issue when I ride outside in better weather and can take her through the fields or even work her out there. She just occassionally gets bored with me and four white walls.
Get creative. Ride square turns. Instead of changing rein across the diagonal, do a tear DrOp shape and leg yield back to the wall. Make clover shapes, etc. All these things will help get him moving from your inside leg to your outside rein with the bonus of keeping him paying attention because he simply doesn't know what is coming next.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 7:06 pm:
So Theo threw me off today. Maybe I am in over my head too far...
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 8:06 pm:
what were the circumstances of the toss off?
are you all right?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
|
Member:
gldilox
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 8:21 pm:
Please say you were wearing a helmet. From experience, I can tell you that bruised tail bones take about three weeks to quit hurting.
My paint objects to being pushed to work - he's quite happy with the light workouts he gets from me but when my trainer comes over and we work hard, he can get grumpy and will throw some bucks.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 8:22 pm:
I am sore (my bum and back), and have a headache. Thanks for asking Ann.
What were the circumstances? Well, I was just getting started. We had done some walk-halt transitions (with some of his balking), then we tried a few trot transitions and he was just piss and vinegar. We couldn't seem to jive. So he trotted a few times, he broke into the walk twice, then when I encouraged him to not stop once when he showed signs, he started to really be fresh (tossing his head, running, etc). I felt pretty powerless so I had him walk. Trainer said that he had "won" with his antics, because he tried to walk then tried the tricks of running and he got what he wanted when I had him walk. So the next time, I tried to ride it through. He was going very inconsistently running, head up, waaaayy behind the bit, and super bouncy. So I got out of balance, which sent him over the edge because I was bouncing and tight, and he threw a monster buck and got me off.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 8:23 pm:
Yes Martha, I had my hat on. We posted at the same time.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 8:39 pm:
""Trainer said that he had "won" with his antics, because he tried to walk then tried the tricks of running and he got what he wanted when I had him walk. So the next time, I tried to ride it through.""
Is this the trainer that won't get on..? Riding bad behavior thru is one thing.. but to try to ride something that is out of control is NOT.. have been there done that many times.. I know my limits and well if it means UNCLE so be it that one time.. There are other ways to get past this behavior from the ground first..
I hope you feel better in the morning.. I hate being tossed..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 8:45 pm:
Hi Gwen,
Ouch. Well, I hope you're ok, and not too discouraged.
So I'm not in favor of letting horses vote by dumping riders (see my post on rehabbing my broken neck). Nevertheless, his behavior is a pretty strong objection to the program. It's not a normal phase of training. Thing to consider:
Is he sour? Learning self-carriage and to take a contact is very tedious for young horses, especially TBs. He may need a more interesting program with more creative approaches to the basics. Of course that's hard until he agrees not to dump his rider.
Is he painful? A poorly fitting saddle comes to mind, also teeth.
Is he fresh? Does he need to get turned out to play during the day to get some ha-has out of his system?
Is he bullying you? If you are transmitting a lot of worry and uncertainty, he may be taking advantage. This to me seems like the least likely explanation, so I'm offering it last.
My approach would be first to rule out pain, and then to mix up his program (not by changing direction or schooling figures, but changing activities and locations (if possible)).
And take care of yourself. Coming off can hurt!
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 9:04 pm:
Well the trainer got on him after that (this is the riding trainer, Ann) and she worked him through it. It was pretty ugly for a while. He was kicking out, popping up a bit, balking, stopping, etc. She had his nose behind the verticle a lot. (Her goal for his "lesson" is to get him even between her legs, seat and hand.) But she did get him to a happier, relaxed place in the end. He was quite stressed at times between me and the end with him stretching down somewhat. What do you make of that???????????
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 9:14 pm:
Well, I don't think it rules anything out. He didn't get her off, so he eventually did what she asked. A tired horse will stretch, especially if he has been curled up, whether he is happy or not. I still would recommend that you rule out pain as a factor, and consider adjusting his program so he is happier in his work.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 9:22 pm:
I mentioned before the ride, the possibility of him being bored and she poo-pooed it. She has a very clear vision of why he is acting this way, and that it is his resistance to work. How the h*## do I address this with her?? I am actually thinking that I have to relocate to a new trainer now. I am pretty much out of options at this barn.
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 10:01 pm:
Hi Gwen,
Well I'd guess we can all agree he's resisting work! The question is why. Of course submission is part of training, but it is supposed to be WILLING submission. The horse offers that-- we do not bully it out of him.
That being said, if she is only riding him a few times each week, you can use your own time to mix things up. That would be good for you and your horse, and would even out her approach. He's your horse, so adjust your program, and fit her into it as you can, until you have another plan.
You don't need her permission or approval to evaluate him for pain, give him some fun diversions, or anything else!
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 10:50 pm:
""Well the trainer got on him after that (this is the riding trainer, Ann) and she worked him through it. It was pretty ugly for a while. ""
And that is very true.. sometimes it is ugly to get the point across.. I am very glad she got on him after you .. .. Getting him to a 'happy , relaxed place in the end' is a good time to quit.. BRAVO for your trainer.. sometimes it does takes a lot of ugly work to get there.. rather it be in the round pen or under saddle..
Just taking what you have written, i would not write off this trainer.. Mixing it up helps but is not always the key .. Does your horse get turn out? Or is he in a stall 23 hours a day? Turn out is part of his ''weekend time'' something we all need..
I give you HIGH praises for asking and seeking help.. its very hard for us to help / see thru the written word.. but i feel you are on the edge of progress
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
tbowner4
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2008 - 11:26 pm:
I went back and viewed video again. BTW You have a beautiful horse and seems to be handling things well. I understand that you have checked teeth, soreness over body, saddle fit? May not be helpful but one thing that I noticed: What kind of bit are you using? Are you using a double snaffle bit, french link, dr. bristol???
Check his mouth without bit in it, measure with your finger the space between his tongue and palate then check the space to the bit, making sure that the bit isn't hitting his palate when reins are not slack.
May help at least you can rule out that element.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 5:25 am:
2 things come to mind when reading this. If pain is ruled out. Back to basics, something was missed along the line and the horse is frustrated. OR he just needs his butt wupped to get the message across. I think your trainer is on the right track, it seems most horses hit this "testing" phase in their training, and that's when most of us end up in the dust. The horses personality and attitude should tell you how to handle it. The confused ones need time and patience, The horses that are just getting testy need to get worked thru it. FME the latter is usually the case. I'm with Ann I think you are on the edge of progress also if handled correctly. Hope your feeling better!
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 6:25 am:
Thanks for the support guys. One thing that has been bugging me is turnout. I have been apprehensive to bring it up because I know what you all will say, and I don't really have options. His turnout is TINY and he is alone. He was out in a bigger area for a few months with two older horses, but was kicked out because he was being a bit of a turkey with them (poor old guy). There is literally no other option at his farm.
Trainer thinks that he must have had success at the track with these antics (balking, flipping head, etc.). I will check his mouth and his back. He has done these behaviors (on a MUCH milder scale before) with us.
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 7:38 am:
Sorry you got dumped, Gwen, and hope you are feeling much better today.
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 10:18 am:
Hey Gwen, any chance you can turn him out in the riding arena for a while? He could get his yayas out there before you ride.
Then maybe let him hack outside around the farm for a couple of days to refresh his mind a little?
I had an OTTB that used the same nappy behavior, alternating with explosions when the balking didn't work. It takes some assertive riding to convince them that it is so much more pleasant to cooperate.
Your trainer sounds like she is appropriately assertive. If you are at all intimidated by him I would stay off for the time being. It is really easy to lose confidence when you don't know what reaction you will get.
Just a little warning, balking sometimes progresses to rearing. Remember to pull him hard in a circle if he starts to show any inclination to bounce up.
He's five, right? There was an interesting thread a while ago about five being the "terrible two's" for horses. You might be interested in checking it out.
I'll repeat that I think he's a nice horse. Training is often two steps forward, one giant leap backward! Hang in there, he's going to get it eventually.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 10:53 am:
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 10:55 am:
I feel turn out is so very important for a horses over all mental attitude.. It does not have to be a huge pasture but a place that he can mozy around on his own free will.. I separate most of my horses as a kick can ruin a riding career.. but they can play bite face across the fence and do neck bites....I also like them to have at least two days off in a row.. a weekend!~ First day is to try to relax the next day is the relaxation.. or that is just my thoughts..
Gwen, I have found with my young babies that once I back them to ride they are great for hacking around and enjoy it.. but when I start 'teaching' them to accept the bridle and start to carry themselves.. I get the I HATE MY JOB attitude.. and have to say it is around month 3.. don't know why , but it takes about that much time for them to say NOPE not gonna do it.. You ride it thru or the trainer does remember it is ALWAYS WORSE BEFORE IT IS BETTER.. The biggest fight is right before they summit..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 11:12 am:
What would I do without you all-SERIOUSLY. It is good to hear that this can be a normal piece of the "learning" process.
Erika, I am intimidated at this point. Trainer is a tough cookie, and does not waver in her confidence. In regards to the balking, it does look like it will progress toward a rear. He has not gone up totally yet, but has done some "pops". I think this is a good place for the running martingale to come into play. He bumped it yesterday during a tantrum with her, and trainer said, "good thing that is there!". I do wonder though, if it can take him to another level at times when it catches him in the mouth...
I just went down to change his blankies, and really pushed hard along his spine from his withers to his rump. He was nonresponsive. I am NOO vet, but I thought that was pretty noteworthy. I will follow up with it. I do think it pisses him off when I get left behind and bonk him on the back. That is what sent him over the edge last night. But trainer said that he needs to increase his tolerance of that (me) too. That would be NICE!
I really have to think about this turnout thing. His turnout area is probably 12x20 at this point.
What does one do when they LOOOVE where they are boarding, but have this factor over which I have noo control? Turnout has been a bugaboo with me for a while.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 11:19 am:
Just my thoughts on a running martingale ,, I won't use em.. sometimes just that bump will be enough to make the horse feel trapped and send them over .. A horse is very claustrophobic and that might be just enough ...
Rearing is a huge issue , the key is to keep their feet moving.. so unlocking the hind end if that is all you can get to move.. Dennis is better at putting it to type then I..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 11:23 am:
See I am not completely comfortable with it, but ugh I don't want trainer to think of me as high maintenance.
|
Member:
dtranch
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 11:51 am:
Just my opinion here, but I never use martingale or tie down or any thing of this nature. I feel like they just mask the problem instead of fixing it. If the horse is bumping against the martingale or tie down, and you take it off ... he is likely to come up even more. Here in western country, a lot of folks use tie downs and once there, seems they can not even ride without it. The horse gets used to leaning or pulling on it, and when you take it off, up they go.
As Ann said .. I will keep their feet moving and disengage the rear end. When disengaged, they can't rear or bolt, or whatever. Once settled, I walk them out and start all over.
I would have to think that this guy is bored to death and sick of circles and arena work. I would give a couple of days off and start over adding a lot of variety in his training. If you can't ride him out, can you take him for a walk on the lead and let him feel himself a bit. This is a great opportunity for some valuable ground work and sending exercises.
I always try to avoid it and hate it when I get a horse to the point that he is souring. It is usually my fault, but the poor horse has to deal with it. Problem is, once soured you have to work them through it. Just get 1 desired move and quit for the day, then build on that.
DT
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 12:03 pm:
Ugh, you are right. But how to proceed now? I am afraid that trainer will say, "don't tell me how to do my job, please". If I continue status quo with her, it will be more of the same, which I am hearing is not a good direction. I am hearing that I need to go in a different direction. I am so bad at confrontation. Shoot.
|
Member:
jerre
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 12:21 pm:
Gwen, Forgive me if I am understanding incompletely, but is the underlying issue about not going forward?
If so, then I would help him with that.
On ottb should love to go forward! You can do all kinds of sending games on the ground, as Dennis says. Ask him to go somewhere and stop -- it can be any kind of reward: rest, scratches, finding a treat. Will he maintain his gait on the circle (Parelli's circling game, or other kind of lounging.) ? Will he maintain his gait following the rail with little or no corrections from you?
What if -- this is radical, and I know with the control issues you're having it will seem scary -- what if you do it without the bit?
Is there a round pen where you can ride with a rope halter and lead rope? The only requirement from him is going forward. He can pick where he goes -- in a round pen or small arena, it can't be far! You choose the gait and use a one-rein disengagement to slow him if necessary.
Can you get to where he is happily moving forward for several minutes at a time?
When you get to that point, start directing him, with one rein at a time. Get the turn and then DrOP the rein. But -- use the reins LAST. Turn your eyes, your belly button (your energy center), your legs, and then pick up the rein.
When he is going happily forward and you can direct him primarily with your body, he is ready to listen to the added refinement of the reins.
When he does it all without a bit, add a bit.
I know this can sound hopelessly scary and baby steps and going way back to the beginning.
And, as full disclosure, I am a Level 3 Parelli student and am thrilled with how much FUN I have with my horses (8 and 5) and how much all the groundwork that seemed odd at first has translated into a very full and complete language and relationship.
You wouldn't be the first horseowner to go to natural horsemanship because the traditional approach is not working (however you define that for yourself).
Regards,
Jerre
|
Member:
jerre
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 1:11 pm:
Gwen, I need to make it clear that the suggestions in my last post are an over-simplification. I wanted to illustrate that a dramatically different approach might get you to your goal sooner.
I would not suggest that anyone do this without the support of a natural horsemanship trainer or a solid foundation in NH. The Parelli program makes it very approachable for home study.
Just for reference, I'm 55, overweight and getting pretty stiff. I've ridden a lot, but not seriously until I was an adult. My training was dressage and low-level eventing. Then I had a bad wreck and a badly broken leg. I continued to ride with a lot of fear.
Since starting Parelli I have redefined my goals, but most importantly, I am having more fun than I ever imagined with my horses! We're just starting back into dressage, but in the meantime, I have a horse that I can load into any trailer and take any place: clinics, shows, friends, forest trails, ocean beaches.
I feel like I have a lot of tools and can answer most of the issues that come up. If you sense evangalism in my posts, it's because I am happy and confident with my horses and grateful to have found this path before it was too late!
Jerre}
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 1:20 pm:
I do hear your confidence in your program within your post, and that is compelling. These programs do make sense to me. I actually really like Frank Bell's programs and I have a few of his videos. I guess maybe the immature, spoiled brat in me sees people "get away" with not following these programs and end up with nice horses. I say, "why do I keep hitting these road blocks (physical shenanigans with my other horse), when so many keep flying by me in their riding?" That is silly. I will keep that in mind. I think I have some major decisions to make. Can't someone just tell me what to do? 
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 1:53 pm:
Gwen, deep breath.. you are being filled with tons of different perspectives.. all good ideas, only you have to find what will work for you / your horse / and your location..
I don't know how much time you have to spend a day with your boy.. but time out on a green patch of grass with you by his side is good 'turn out' time..
As Dennis said in so many words.. SLIGHTEST TRY BIGGEST REWARD.. and call it a day..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 2:00 pm:
Hey Gwen,
How are you feeling on Day 2?
I'm with Denny-- your primary relationship is with your horse, not your trainer. Of course if a horse forces a confrontation you must try to win it, but that should be an extremely rare event. With many horses, it's a "never" event, even OTTBs.
But these are also the times when it is more important that you devise the solution than it is that you get there right away, because THAT is horsemanship. Sit down (carefully!) and have a long think about what he needs to be happy, what he needs to learn, and how you can get creative with the limits of your circumstances.
I don't see the trainer as a black/white type of choice. If she schools him in the arena 3 days/week (for example), do something else with him, under saddle or not, the other 4 days. Play games with him, let him blow off steam, teach him to free jump (there's self-carriage).
Of course you need to be the boss, but there many flavors of bosses, as we know. Be the one he enjoys working for.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 2:01 pm:
But Ann, it appears as though this training program we are currently in, is not helpful and positive for him based on his current behavior. Is supplementing with "smaller step training" enough to balance?
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 2:07 pm:
Elizabeth, you and I were typing at the same time! I am following this closely during my "snowday", as I am looking for some serious guidance here. Your description makes sense. However, one of our major road blocks is my lack of muscle tone to stick with his giant stride. I guess I can do that pilates I keep talking about in the meantime...
I am feeling okay, but pretty sore (I don't THINK my neck is broken-heehee)
|
Member:
dtranch
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 2:29 pm:
Gwen ... you can't compare your horses and your experiences with all the others because every horse, every rider and every situation is different. Some horses pick up things amazingly fast, while others seem top need constant reinforcement. Same with riders and handlers. Doesn't make one better than the other, just different.
If you are asking for someone to tell you what to do, here goes my suggestion.
1.) Relax ... Relax ... Relax ... take a break and then Relax
2.) Let your horse experience # 1 also in addition to some serious turnout for horsey stuff.
3.) Rededicate yourself to some NH experience building be it Parelli, Anderson, Bell, or most of these HA folks .. they are ALL good.
4.) Implement what you are learning to develop "Control" (over yourself as well as your horse)which in turn will help your horse develop control (over his mind and body as he learns to follow you)
5.) Let this new found Control help you develop "Confidence" (in yourself with each new success, and in your horse as he progresses), while your horse builds "Confidence" (in himself, and in your ability to see him through his issues).
6). Use this newfound "Control" and "Confidence" that you both now have to begin a whole new "Communication" process with each other.
There are no shortcuts .. and regardless of how good your trainer is, all is not automatically bequeathed to the owner when training session is over. Remember that "Control" is not something we can force upon a horse, it is something he must give us of his own free will.
I don't know what your immediate plans are for this horse, but never forget that the pleasure is in the journey. I would spend about a week or so just hanging out with this guy and discussing your plans for starting over.
Finally .. remember that a horse is a living, thinking being and that "drilling" is not something easily accepted. The same goes for me in that respect .. keep it short, interesting, and enjoyable. So many people get focused on a goal and think that is the starting point instead of a target. If I want my horse to be good under saddle, he must be soft, supple, and respectful on the ground. If my goal is to look good in the saddle, I need to get my feet dirty first.
OK .. I'm through preaching now. Just relax and enjoy the ride.
DT
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 2:30 pm:
To get thru a big pile of ''snow'' one must work at one shovel full at a time.. .. asking a horse to work 3 days a week in the discipline you are going to ride him in , i don't believe is to much to ask for.. drilling a horse is not fun for him or you.. there needs to be the down time / the fun time in between.. long walks out around the grounds.. long grooming times.. I just have a feeling that you are getting close to a break thru.. like i had said... the fight is always the worse right before he summits.. Make sure your trainer gives him lots of breaks while schooling him.. give lots of pats as well..
* your snow day , my tractor is being repaired *
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
jowidner
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 2:31 pm:
Gwen, as far as the turnout situation goes: Would it be possible to even get an hour of turn out in the large field while the other horses are schooling or come in and munch on some hay or something like that? One of the older guys could be in the paddock so that your horse doesn't panic at being out by himself. My appendix gelding lives to run and he's a great guy, but if he doesn't get turn out he becomes grumpy in a hurry. Hang in there with the training issues - there's great advice on this post. I agree with Ann, sit back and think your decisions through. I know its hard, but our expectations can be traps. You are where you are and your horse is where he is. He's young, learning a new career, and sounds confused and frustrated. "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard" is always great advice. Make it easy for him to go forward, even if its not in balance or in tempo yet. Make forward fun, easy, comfortable and safe. You can refine it later. And remember, he is YOUR horse, not your trainer's. You pay the bills, and you get to decide what is in his best interest as well as your own. Hope you're feeling better after your spill. I hate getting dumped! Good luck! You are a thinking, questioning owner and your horse is lucky to have you!
|
Member:
stevens
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 2:45 pm:
Hi Gwen,
I'm with Ann on this one. What's your rush? I suggest you have an open dialog with the trainer. Maybe she'll ask you not to tell her how to do her job, maybe she won't. I can't tell from your posts how long you've been working with this trainer, so only you know if you've given this program a fair chance. Also, you're the one writing the checks here so if you truly are unhappy there's nothing wrong with you finding someone else. I would just recommend giving folks a fair chance, if you change trainers every month word is going to get out.
It is my experience that most horses are very sweet and willing, but there are some that are simply not interested in getting with the program. Again, you're the only one who can make that determination.
I can relate to you being sore; I literally fell off my 17.2 warmblood last week. He's in rehab for a tendon injury and we can just walk under saddle at this point. We were cruising around the stables on a loose rein (OK he was on the buckle) when something caught his attention and he crowhopped and I simply fell off onto the road. My derriere is now a pretty hideous shade of purple but on the up side, he didn't bolt off and was easily caught.
I do admit that it has shaken my confidence a little, but since I tried to remember how many previous times I'd come off and couldn't, I decided it's not the end of the world.
Hang in there and take your time; you'll be fine. Also, I really like working trail obstacles as a good change of pace for horses.
Regarding, Parelli stuff, I was standing next to a friend of mine who's into that and she accidentally whacked me in the head with her orange stick thingee so I'll keep my opinions on that topic to myself. 
Good Luck,
Chris
|
Member:
jowidner
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 2:50 pm:
Just finished typing my post and saw all the other posts within the last 2 hours - must be a universal bad weather day!
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 3:45 pm:
Be careful, Gwen-- those broken necks can sneak right up on you!
It's a gorgeous day in northern Colorado folks. Forecast for snow, but sunny and 58'F right now-- yahoo! (By the way, that is very very warm and beautiful, in case you were wondering.)
One more question onto the pile-- do you have access to a seasoned lesson horse that you could ride to solidify your basics? It's hard on a young horse (any horse) to be expected to learn and teach at the same time.
|
Member:
36541
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 4:28 pm:
I had asked a long time ago, and I apologize if I missed the response, but have you lunged him a bit before riding him? You can vary the circle size, tempo, and lunge over cavaletti as a way to offer something different for both of you.
I had a pony mare that got bored when she was two and started being a troublemaker, so I got a book and a bag of carrots to teach her some interesting circus tricks. She loved learning to stand on the mounting block, offer a hoof, and kneel down for me. We don't do the tricks any more, she is eventing this year, but I could tell how much she enjoyed the interaction(and the carrots of course)!
|
Member:
lhenning
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 4:34 pm:
Gwen,
I've been reading this post from afar but if you can take one more person jumping in . . .
Last year, my horse bolted and dumped me. I posted on here about that incident and we had a long discussion. So much good advice, but when it really came down to it, I had to take charge of the training myself to correct the problem. The problem begins with the rider. So ask yourself, "what am I or this trainer doing that is causing my horse to resist?" Usually, it has to do with making them do things they don't understand. Maybe it seems he should, but does he really?
Here is what worked for me:
1. Go back to basics. Start working him on groundwork yourself. Get to be buddies with him but also earn his respect. Find what training is missing.
2. Dressage training (oh, I am not trying to be difficult here, please be open minded) but it is hard for horses to understand. It takes, I believe certain people that grasp it well to teach it to the horse. Sometimes it can be too harsh by "making" them do the right thing. I took dressage lessons and it was a part of why my horse got difficult. When I stepped back and learned NH, he learned better by learning in horse language. Dressage can be taught to horses trained with natural horsemanship easier, and in a happier way for the horse.
3. I re-read my own post from last year and many of the wonderful people that gave me advice were completely off base. The reason is because they were not there seeing what was happening. They relied on me telling them but my observations were not always accurate. I did trust my trainer and that turned out to be a good choice some of the time. I learned to trust myself and my own instincts of what was best for my horse. Then I learned to trust my horse to tell me what he needed.
4. Develop "feel". This is learning horse body language. Learn to feel when he is not "with you" and back off. Go back to something easy and praise him for doing it well. Get him to want to work for you rather than making him work for you. Keeps a lot of bad accidents from happening and builds a happier, more trusting relationship with the horse.
Good luck,
Linda
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 6:42 pm:
Yes, Stacy we do lunge him. It does help to get the "sillies" out as I call them. He just seems to be ornery in the past week or so. Is it the learning curve, or is it his confusion/frustration with an inappropriate training program? THose are my two big questions. I know that in terms of my riding skills, I am not the strongest that can teach him. What I am stuck in is what is the best method to go with that keeps him and me comfortable moving along.
So as I was driving to peek at him tonight, I had a brainstorm of my true question. I thought that I would list my goals and see if there is insight from there?
*kind, happy horse that is well-adjusted enough to be safe on and off property
*enough mileage/knowledge to allow me to ride safely and make reasonable gains under saddle on a consistent basis
I think part of my problem is being unclear about my identity (for lack of a better term) within all of this. For some reason, I feel really inadequate at making good choices in riding. How ridiculous is that-I have been around horses since I was EIGHT. But I continually waver in my intentions I think. I would like to choose a method and stick to it, and have it work! That doesn't seem so unreasonable, but I can't seem to be content with my choices for some reason. That results in me second-guessing myself all the time, and questioning! But its not like I am making up excuses to question. I have not made true progress in YEARS.
I won't be able to spend time with him until early next week, so I guess this is a good time to really THINK. I am sooo tempted to bring him home-now that I just rehomed my companion pony...
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 7:22 pm:
Gwen, two things come to mind as I read your last post.
1. People have been raising children for millions of years and yet so few of us do it well, and none do it perfectly. Why? Because each one is UNIQUE!
Same with horses.
2. Another personal observation: my ottb was extremely sensitive to high energy foods. When he got the best of me, my trainer immediately removed all grain from his diet. Hay only. Helped a lot.Just food for thought (pun intended).
I think your instincts will guide you. As Linda Lashley said, nobody sees what you're seeing. Trust yourself. If you want to bring him home, why not?
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 7:32 pm:
I am afraid Erika, to bring him home then miss the things I have boarding. (See, around and around I go) My husband will kill me if I waver again. He actually likes them boarded, so I would have to convince him. I really do miss them being my pets.
I took him off of all grain about a month ago-good idea! (I even asked Dr.O if that was okay)
I really need to make decisions and STICK TO THEM!
|
New Member:
karind10
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 8:01 pm:
Gwen, If you don't mind, I'm a new poster here and I would just like to offer a thought or two.
I think Dennis' advice was to you was very sound. I've been training horses for over 25 years, and in many fields. Most of the problems horses have are caused by our poor communication. It strikes me that we are determined to impose our communication system on our horses, yet often anthropomorphize theirs, rather than understanding them in context.
He's telling you that he doesn't understand, he's bored, or he's hurting. You need to find out which and solve that problem.
If I had this horse in training, I would take him back to groundwork. I'd teach him to be soft every time I asked, with gentleness, patience, and hundreds or thousands of repetitions. I'd make sure the releases were fast and clear, so he got the message that he's doing what I asked without confusion.
I'd also teach him to relax on command, can be a simple ask to be soft, or put his head down; and I'd also teach him to go forward on cue from the ground. I'd teach him these things so well that his responses become instinctual, without thinking about it.
I don't believe you can teach a horse to be truly soft by being hard. You can teach a horse to be obedient, and to tolerate you, but that is quite a bit different from the teamwork that true softness brings.
Last I would say, trust yourself. If this doesn't feel right to you, change. That you are not making progress seems to me that your instructor and trainer is not able to reach you. Trainer/instructors must reach their students as well as they do their horses. If I were your trainer/instructor I'd have you on groundwork too until you became the strong, calm, assertive horsewoman you want to be.
Good luck, and trust yourself!
|
Member:
leilani
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 8:03 pm:
Hi Gwen,
I thought of you when I read this article. A lot doesn't apply to your situation, but I found it enlightening as I know ZERO about OTTB. Leilani
https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=1507&nID=1&n=Communication%20With%20 Your%20Horse&case=2
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 8:07 pm:
Hi Gwen,
I think it's probably a good idea to keep him with professional care until you are confident in your ability to handle him on the ground, and to deal with what comes under saddle. I would hate to see you bring him home and find yourself too "boogered" to ride.
If you need fingers pointed, why not start and stay with the Bell/Denny approach? We know it works, it's safe, it's good for the horse, and you have access to an expert if you have trouble. Seems perfect to me.
Stuckness isn't a general condition-- it's specific to whatever it is you need to learn at the time you get stuck. Maybe it's something about yourself, or maybe it's something about your horse. A lot of people get stuck because they suddenly and "irrationally" find themselves afraid-- of getting hurt, being out of control, whatever. If that rings a bell (get it?), scroll up an re-read Denny's post. That is a tried and true path forward.
|
Member:
sureed
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 8:44 pm:
Here, here, Dennis, Linda and Karin,
I would take this horse back to basics, using NH and the round pen to get him listening, responsive, and moving forward, then transitioning to lunging and driving on the ground before anyone gets back on board. I was trained to believe that is is almost impossible to bit a horse from its back. The trainer I learned from actually DrOve his horses in a sulky before backing them.
We get impatient with developing these OTTBs because we think they are trained under saddle, but they aren't, not the way we want to ride them. Many of them don't have ground manners, they are taught to run faster when you pull back on the reins, some of them know how to switch leads to take the turns and rebalance themselves, but that doesn't translate to collected arena work. And many of them are mercurial because they are bred to compete at the run and without regard to their temperaments and long term soundness. 60 days of NH and round pen training could provide real breakthroughs for you and this horse.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 9:11 pm:
Wouldn't it be counterintuitive to continue with trainer and follow nh philosophies, even if I am supplementing, doesn't one not jive with the other?
To those who mentioned groundwork with him, I just wanted to mention that I have done some of that with him in the early months. I probably made the cardinal mistake of abandoning the techniques when we got "good" at them.
|
Member:
juliem
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 9:54 pm:
Gwen, I wrote this post earlier today and then wasn't able to post it until now, and I see I'm repeating a lot of what's been said above. Additionally, your confusion is being transferred to him. If you're not confident and clear about what you want and where you're going and how to get there, how can he be? Your trainer has specific goals, focusing on one step at a time I'm sure. But I agree, they are not steps he's ready or comfortable taking. Training on the ground with NH will translate to under saddle, but I don't believe properly done they would be counter productive--quite the opposite in my experience. Here's my earlier post:
I sense your frustration and I think your horse is frustrated too. If it were me, I'd tell the trainer that you're having some frustration and need to take a break for a couple of weeks--you and the horse. Then I'd commit to getting this guy some meaningful turnout and I'd go back to basics with him on the ground. He may not need any schooling on ground manners, but it will give you a lot of opportunities to reward him for good behavior. He'll make the connection that when he does what you ask, he gets reward--and that may mean he gets to do nothing, he gets praise, he gets a treat, a scratch, whatever. Then I agree some NH program that you commit to and play with him! In my opinion, Parelli has the most fun, Bell has the most compassion, and Clinton Anderson has the most (IMO too much) whacking! I do use elements of all of them, and don't always use the "orange stick thingy". I like mine to move a body part when I point my index finger--of course that's the end result, not the starting point. I think all NH trainers ask for respect in the same way--moving your horses feet and move them in the way I ask. This is so over simplified, but again, it will give you a lot of opportunities to teach him a very simple response and then you can reward his tries and that is very key--reward the smallest try at first. You're asking a question and he's searching for the right answer. You can ignore the wrong answers and keep asking until he gets even a thought of the right one. Then, reward immediately. This would take a volume to explain, and luckily, all these NH people have one. The exercise I find the most useful is "sending." You are not having fun now and neither is Theo, so what do you have to lose?? And please believe us, you have much to gain. I think Dennis speaks wisely when he says we too often focus on the goal and miss the journey. Pretend Theo has never been handled--teach him to lower his head for the halter, follow a feel on the lead rope, move his forehand, move his haunches, sidepass, etc. all on the ground. Mine will even sidepass to me--no halter or anything--so I can climb on the fence and hop on for an easy walk or trot (I'm too old to canter)around the dry lot. My paint gelding is more responsive that way than he is in full tack! My pony learned all her liberty stuff from watching me with the others and will beat them to the fence for the ride (very food motivated and there's a treat at the end)! And she's eleven hands!! Funny sight. Hope you don't feel nagged, but we care about you and can hear the disappointment in your posts. There are a lot of roads to get where you want to go, and maybe you and Theo need to take a short detour and take the scenic route! This is supposed to be a fun adventure after all and the more we learn, the more fun it SHOULD be!
|
Member:
juliem
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 9:58 pm:
Oh and Gwen, if you decide to do this, don't give the trainer excuses or lots of reasons--that just allows her to refute each one. You should just tell her it has nothing to do with her or her training. It's all about you and how you feel right now and how you feel about your partnership with your horse and you need to get back to a better place with those feelings. Ask her to please not take it personally, it's just something you need for you.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 10:28 pm:
""Wouldn't it be counterintuitive to continue with trainer and follow nh philosophies, even if I am supplementing, doesn't one not jive with the other? ""
My Dressage trainer IS a Parelli trainer as well.. In fact that is how she backed my last two young ones.. ''the Parelli way'' .. My first filly I sent to her and said.. ''this is so outside my box of training but I will give it a try, BUT if I don't like what I see I will bring my filly home no hard feelings? " I am a convert.. By the time she got on my mare for the first ride.. she could do all the basic lateral moves thru lower second level with lightness and balance.. It was truly amazing ..
Not that this helps you at all.. but wanted you to know you can do both..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 6:34 am:
Julie, your entire first paragraph is exactly what the sport psychologist said to me-exactly. I do not feel like you are nagging. I feel so ridiculously needy, and am so uncomfortable with that. Everyone is being so great though, and I realllly appreciate it. If I do muster up the guts enough to take a break from this trainer, I will print out what you wrote and read it like a script.
I should clarify my question-Isn't it counterintuitive to work with THIS trainer, because her methods are apparently not in line with nh-type work? There is actually one that combines both into her work that comes to the barn. Unfortunately, she is very difficult for most to get along with, therefore is being "edged" out.
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 6:49 am:
To go back a bit and bring everyone up to speed, he is balking right now (and has dabbled in the strategy here and there in the past)with some other frustrational behaviors as well. However, the other main issue under saddle is his big stride (for a little guy), that gets out of balance and gets him running. Initially I was frustrated because I had been working with a trainer (1 lesson, and two trains a week) since September and he was going the same in January as he had in August. So old trainer was going away, and I was looking forward to trying a new trainer. Now with his current attitude, I am worried that this is not a good match. (Some had questions about how we got here and I didn't want to ignore you!)
Leilani, I couldn't open the article, but thanks for thinking of me!
Thanks again everyone. If I have not answered a question, please let me know. So much is zooming through my head, and I am a bit jumbled.
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 9:53 am:
Gwen,
If you are feeling "jumbled" think of how the horse is feeling!
Everyone here has given fantastic advice. BUT the main thing I keep coming back to is this: I don't see this horse given the chance to be a horse. Correct me if I am reading this wrong, but he's stalled and has only a small turnout? And his exercise isn't free choice but rather the choice of some human; trainer or his "jumbled owner?" And then he's expected to do what? Sorry, but I feel sorry for him. As his owner I'd suggest living in his hooves for a week, and then see what your thinking is.
As many have said, enjoy the journey and not so much focus on the end result. Until he's allowed to be a horse first, it won't matter what method you use with him. You said he's intelligent, well, he's telling you he's not happy by starting to act up now. Instead of getting after him, or trying new training gadgets, let him be a HORSE and back up a bit. I think he'll sigh a big sigh of relief and so will you.
BTW folks, I know we all do the best we can with boarding situations and training. The only time I ever boarded a horse, I found I never saw my horse! So I hope this isn't coming across wrong, not meant in any way except positive. I'm adding that because I've been pretty crabby and short on sleep lately, and this discussion is one thing that was floating around in my sleep starved brain!
|
Member:
jowidner
|
Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 11:25 am:
Hi Gwen, I've been thinking about your posts and just wanted to again say "Hang in there girl!" There are a lot of different approaches to working with horses and most every horse person I've met has pretty strong opinions regarding training issues. It seems to me that what all good training programs have in common is utmost regard for the horse's well being and safety for all concerned. Whatever course of action you take, if it is based on listening and understanding of your horse's behavior and needs, safety, consistent limits, love, positive rewards, and respect then it is a good program. Your horse will ultimately tell you what he needs - its a matter of understanding what he is trying to tell you. I agree that we must never lose sight of the essential nature of horses - they are prey animals that need lots of opportunity for freedom of movement and time spent with their own kind. That they cooperate and even seem to enjoy some of the crazy things we ask of them never ceases to amaze me! By the way, my horse was also trained with natural horsemanship and then basic dressage. Perhaps there is some conflict with the higher levels (you'd have to ask some of our dressage members here) but for the goals you've stated it seems to me (just my opinion here folks) that you'd be fine. I agree that your horse definitely needs time to be a horse, however you decide to work that out, and that you, your instructor, and your trainer need to be on the same page else you and your horse are going to continue to be confused. Best of luck!
|
Member:
lhenning
|
Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 12:05 pm:
Gwen, I have seen the all behaviors you describe corrected through NH. Use it to get this horse re-trained from his former life and listening to you. Then you can move forward in whatever endeavor you choose. It seems you are stepping from point A to Z with a horse that is both young and relatively untrained.
I strongly suggest you write down your goals as you did above. Then break them down into smaller goals. You want a "kind, happy well-adjusted horse" so that sounds like "relaxed". Relaxed horses are the ones that have a clear knowledge of who is leader. So look for respectfulness training to accomplish this. Keep a written log of plans for each training session that consistently work toward your goals. Also write after you train and note what happened, both good and bad. This will help keep you on track and not shifting from one thing to another. It also helps to see if you are heading in a wrong direction so you can stop sooner and reconsider. Horses are very adaptable creatures so it does not seem hopeless if you make mistakes. Just try to step back when that happens and try another method. One year from now, you can go back through your log and see that you are making progress because by then your horse will be respectful and relaxed. You may not think he is as safe as you want because that goal has not been completely accomplished. What you will see is he is moving in the right direction.
Also, don't have a set time schedule. Training is mostly about patience. If your confidence has been shaken then you need time to get yourself feeling good again. Take things slow, one step at a time and one day at a time. One of my favorite mantra's is "Make Today It's Own Day".
I have been down a similar path to you (not ottb though, which seems to indicate an even slower approach), and the first year was the slowest. Once my horse became respectful and relaxed, he became easier to train and this past year we made faster progress.
Good luck,
Linda
|
Member:
lilo
|
Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 12:21 pm:
Gwen and all,
I always read discussions regarding training - even if they do not apply to my particular situation. So, Gwen, thanks for posting the questions and to all who answered, thanks also.
There were so many responses, I'll bet it is not easy to sort through all of them. There is obviously a large knowledge base among HA members.
All I want to say is - it is tough to get dumped, not only physically but emotionally. I had owned my mare for 13 years and ridden through many a buck when I finally got dumped, not only once, but the next year again. Both times I had to admit to "rider" error when analyzing the situation. I would agree with everyone who was advocating back to basics ground training (as you apparently did in the beginning).
I did not really want to give advice - there are many people here with a lot more experience than I have. Just wanted to add my support - I have a feeling this is all going to work out in the end.
Good luck with Theo,
Lilo
|
Member:
leilani
|
Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 2:15 pm:
Gwen,
Go to 'TheHorse.Com'
Left side bar
Scroll down to 'Go to Article #'
Put in '1507'
Hit Go
Leilani
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2008 - 1:48 pm:
Thanks Leilani. It was an informative article.
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 18, 2008 - 9:41 pm:
CarlajA,
I just wanted to thank you for putting the recommendation out there for the book, "Dressage in Lightness, Speaking the Horses Language." After just looking at the pictures and reading the captions, I wailed "Oh no, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO RIDE." And now that I am a few chapters into the book, I am not being quite so dramatic; rather I am fascinated by what I am reading. You've led me to a whole new level of consciousness regarding horsemanship! My horses will be thanking you too.
Thanks!!!
|
|
|
