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  Discussion on Paddling
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Member:
maggienm

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 12:09 pm:

I have been thinking about paddling in horses. It seems it is generally considered a fault.
But as I understand it some horse breeds like Peruvian Pasos paddle because of the gaits they
do.
So is paddling undesireable in certain breeds but acceptable in others?
wondering?
Member:
chrism

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 4:02 pm:

Lori, I think paddling is due to a horse's conformation and/or trim/shoeing (both trimming as a foal and then as an adult). I've read where leg straightness is heritable, but not significantly so, I want to say around 17% ... but my memory is fuzzy.

So, my guess is that when selecting breeding stock, this may be considered more or less of a fault by the different registries.

Additionally, some things are heritable in "groups" - i.e. in chickens, selecting for bigger breasted ones resulted in meaner ones that were bigger breasted in one study ...

It may be that some of the characteristics considered favorable in the Paso registry do not necessarily preclude paddling.

I know the Swedish registry grades their breeding stock and an offset knee or slight toeing in would be noted and, depending on the rest of the conformation and movement, the horse may not be class one. In an ideal world, only the best put together horses would be bred, so it is possible the horses used for riding would not be so perfectly conformed and these are the ones we see out and about.

When I go to a show that isn't breed specific and watch the competitors - it is interesting to note many less than perfect horses that do very well in competition.

Cheers.
Member:
mysi

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 9:33 pm:

Lori, I do know that paddling is frowned upon in the hunter ring.
Member:
aannk

Posted on Saturday, Jan 19, 2008 - 10:47 am:

Melissa,
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. It depends upon the degree. Judges don't look at the horses from the front unless they are juding in hand.
If you don't notice it from the side, a judge isn't going to care. At least, that is my experience, which only consists of showing for about 10 years, so I am not the expert here.
Alicia
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Saturday, Jan 19, 2008 - 11:23 am:

Hi Lori,

The Spanish describe several types of paddling in Spanish purebreds, depending on the conformational origin.

According to them, lateral deviation of the cannon bone (causing "toe in") causes paddling. They believe this causes excess stress on the pastern that can lead to degenerative arthritis. This was called "campaneo" and was a desirable trait in the past for carriage and riding horses, but is now considered a fault. We still have a lot of these old paddling lines here in the US, but plenty of straight movers as well.

They also identify lateral deviation of the knee (outward rotation) which causes "winging" or "plaiting" and may cause interference between the front legs and fetlock damage etc..

That being said, a minor paddle is often no big deal, and you can see it on some international-level horses. It really depends on how severe it is, whether the horse seems to be limited by it, and whether s/he makes up for it by being capable in other ways. My old dressage horse paddled noticeably on his right fore, and was never penalized for it (he was, however, penalized for bucking and taking out a judge's table.).
Member:
mysi

Posted on Saturday, Jan 19, 2008 - 11:34 am:

I guess it depends on what level of showing your looking at too. The average show, no, it may not be judged upon. When you get into the upper level circuits, where most of the horses are flawless, you would be overlooked. If a horse has too much bending of the knee at the trot they are overlooked. I know several judges, one who is my closest friend and I hear what the judge on, I personally don't think any of it matters and thats its rediculous.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 19, 2008 - 11:38 am:

In a performance class, I believe regardless of breed, conformation is a low part of the score and how the horse and rider "go" is mostly what counts, i.e.: do they follow the judge's commands, on the correct lead, back good, etc. I think that paddling depends on the class also; I've noticed that in the saddle seat classes a lot of the horses paddle quite badly, but it seems almost necessary for them to enable them to lift their knees as high and fast as they do. I don't ride saddle seat, so this is just how it appears to me. I know that in Arabs toeing out or in is a conformation fault, yet you see a lot of them in the show ring that are winning, unfortunately.
New Member:
ladylark

Posted on Saturday, Jan 19, 2008 - 11:42 am:

For a Peruvian Paso paddling is a desirable trait. It is called "Termino" or winging and they are judged on this action, along with smoothness, in the show ring. They inherit this movement from their ancestors and a foal will "paddle" within hours after it's birth. This is the natural way they move their forequarters forward and they display this "Termino" in all of their gaits. The movement originates from the shoulder and isn't a part of training. I ride Peruvian Pasos and am still amazed at their smoothness and endurance. I switched to the breed after years with Arabs and Quarter Horses because I needed the easier gait. I have never been sorry, although I still have my Arab gelding. It took awhile for me to get used to the look of the Peruvian and the many questions I encounter from other riders on the trail but believe me it is natural and smooth.
Member:
ilona

Posted on Saturday, Jan 19, 2008 - 10:06 pm:

I have a Peruvian Paso high-stepper who paddles and was a National Performance Champion many years ago. He is very smooth and very flashy, one of the only horses I have ridden that literally stops traffic because of his 'non-traditional' manner of movement.
It is completely natural, desirable, and not the result of trimming or shoeing.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 20, 2008 - 12:07 pm:

I think the take home message here is that paddling may be looked at differently in different breeds, shows, and even by different judges but as long as the horses conformation is good and the feet landing fairly flat and pointing fairly straight ahead, it is a sound way of going and even desirable in some breeds.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 20, 2008 - 8:37 pm:

If you have a horse "paddle" who never has done so before, bad farrier work should be suspected. I don't think that it is a good thing in breeds for which it is atypical.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 6:55 am:

Vicki I have seen TB's and QH's who paddled for several decades without problems and cannot remember a horse that paddled, albeit mildly when compared with horses where termino is normal, that had overall good conformation that had problems associated with this way of going. What do you base your judgement on?
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 9:21 am:

The quarterhorse gelding we lost to a broken front leg (likely due to a kick by my mare) paddled. We had video taped him when trying him out, and he definitely paddled in front. It was quite symmetric and there were no marks on his front legs anywhere that would indicate interference.

We bought him and rode him for two years on trails without any problems. Everyone loved riding him because his trot was so smooth. My friend once told me - even when he acts up, he is smooth. He was not the steadiest trail horse - not very confident and spooked easily.

Also very, very bonded to my mare - we never could figure out why she would have kicked out at him, except that he might have started to challenge her boss mare status (only two horses in the herd). It was a very sad time.

Lilo
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 11:10 am:

Dr. O, I didn't say it was necessarily BAD but that perhaps it is not GOOD, and certainly if a horse has not normally done so and begins to do so, the horse is compensating for some reason. My personal experiences were with my Arab who had been poorly trimmed and shoed. When corrected all was fine. The other was in a thoroughbred jumping horse who was noted to paddle. Two days later we went back to look at the horse and it was lame (of course, could be coincidental). "Paddling" may be a word that some of us perhaps define somewhat differently than others. To me, that gait in certain breeds would make me feel that the conformation or unbalanced feet was causing the horse to compensate for a flaw, which over time may cause extra stress or wear and tear on knees, joints or tendons. See the following sites for more ideas on this: https://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/livestocksystems/components/0482-07.ht ml
https://www.gaitedhorses.net/ConformationLesson/FrontEnds/FrontEndConformationB.h tml
See especially C & D at the above site
https://www.perolchico.com/english/peruvianpasohorse.html
See especially paragraph 3 at the above site.
https://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/lameness/eqgaits2880/
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 11:34 am:

Hi Vicki,

I would be careful about trying to correct a natural paddle, since that is conformationally normal for the horse. (My farrier is religious on this topic-- he wants the foot to land flat, but how it gets there is up to the horse.) I guess I never have seen trimming cause a paddle in a straight mover, though I know you can cause a lot of problems by mangling feet.

But Lilo and I have just discovered a correlation between paddling and mortality due to a kick-induced leg break, since that's how my guy died too. AHA! Just kidding.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 11:56 am:

Elizabeth -- I agree with you 100%, as would my farrier. I had my Arab for years and he NEVER paddled until a farrier trimmed him in a very unbalanced fashion and slapped shoes over the top. If a horse is sound and the feet are balanced taking into account his/her normal way of going, I would not change that. In my personal opinion, much harm has been done to horses through attempts at "corrective" trimming or shoeing.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 12:32 pm:

No disagreement with abnormal conformation including poor trimming Vicki but these warning apply to all horses including those who do not paddle. I just want to emphasize that horses that paddle yet have good conformation do stay sound in my experience.

While the PPaso folks do get upset with the term paddling, also called winging out, many texts on lameness define paddling as "A deviation in gait in which the hoof arcs outward in flight" as does our own reference of "Horseman's Terms". They may not like it but termino is a type of paddling by this commonly used definition.

For those interested here is a good video of termino in a PPaso:
https://www.ranchitosereno.net/Video/Gitano_1yr4mos.wmv

DrO
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 1:08 pm:

And here is a PRE candidate for the US Olympic Dressage team, Rociero, who "wings" somewhat on his right fore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPxUM9Q0a3E
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 4:43 pm:

Thanks -- all interesting stuff. I guess that I would add that if all else was equal, I would select a horse that did NOT paddle in horse breeds that typically do not do so, as in some disciplines they will possibly be marked down in the show ring, and it is not the look (in non-gaited horses) that I personally prefer. The long-time trainer and competitor who examined the thoroughbred jumper (who paddled and then became lame) considered it a serious fault, and right or wrong, that could effect the horse's value and success in the show ring.
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 7:29 am:

Very interesting discussion. I'm always interested in improving my eye to evaluate gaits and lameness so all the links have been helpful. Particularly loved watching the gorgeous stallion in your link, Elizabeth
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