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  Discussion on Research Summary: The Saga of King, Queeny, and Jacky
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DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 7:35 am:

Imagine this conversation in the paddock while Queeny is being trained by Mr. Whisper, often referred to by the horses as "Pesky". King turns to Jacky and says, "Yeah, Queeny thinks Pesky is great, but what the heck does she know?" Jacky replies, "I don't know...she eats my hay, she must know something."

Here is a fascinating study that suggests that your interactions with other horses will effect interactions with a horse. The conclusion is to make training easier you should line up your horses in paddocks so they can watch you train. Then start your training day with the most dominant horse and work your way down the hierarchy!
DrO


Anim Cogn. 2008 Jan 9;
Horse sense: social status of horses (Equus caballus) affects their likelihood of copying other horses' behavior.

Krueger K, Heinze J.

University of Regensburg, Biologie I, Universitatsstrasse 31, 93053, Regensburg, Germany, Konstanze.Krueger@biologie.uni-regensburg.de.

Animals that live in stable social groups need to gather information on their own relative position in the group's social hierarchy, by either directly threatening or by challenging others, or indirectly and in a less perilous manner , by observing interactions among others. Indirect inference of dominance relationships has previously been reported from primates, rats, birds, and fish. Here, we show that domestic horses, Equus caballus, are similarly capable of social cognition. Taking advantage of a specific "following behavior" that horses show towards humans in a riding arena, we investigated whether bystander horses adjust their response to an experimenter according to the observed interaction and their own dominance relationship with the horse whose reaction to the experimenter they had observed before. Horses copied the "following behavior" towards an experimenter after watching a dominant horse following but did not follow after observing a subordinate horse or a horse from another social group doing so. The "following behavior," which horses show towards an experimenter, therefore appears to be affected by the demonstrator's behavior and social status relative to the observer.
Member:
gwen

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 1:12 pm:

Wow, that is pretty fascinating!
Member:
quatro

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 - 10:30 pm:

That is a very interesting observation. It is kinda strange in my dog world, but when I do a group lesson, I always pick the most obnoxious dominant dog first to work with. Just my own choice, but it does make the rest of the session go more smoothly. I wonder . . . . . . . .
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 2:06 pm:

Very interesting, I have a coming three year old filly. I usually leave her in her stall while my trainer and I work with my other two horses. After this I think that I will let her watch the lessons!

Cynthia
Member:
muffi

Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 6:24 pm:

WOW - I actually did something correct! I always work my Dominant horse first - take him riding or in hand in full view of the subordinant one. I did that because he was the Bossy one and I felt he needed to be made tired first. it always seemed to be followed by a Smart Horse (horse #2 Is just as smart as Horse #1 mind you)but the second horse seemed to catch on faster and be more obedient. Hmmm the proof of the puddin in my pasture. thanks Dr O love the little gems like that.
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2008 - 6:54 pm:

Fantastic article, Dr. O.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2008 - 10:17 am:

I can attest to this first hand. Last summer, the boarding barn had a very pushy, dominant horse with little training in the pasture with six other geldings. He was the obvious leader. When I would go to bring my horse in from pasture, the pushy guy always tried to push his way in the door. The other horses bunched up ready to explode inside behind him.

I started using dominating gestures toward the pushy guy out in the pasture. I always approached him first, always made him move out of my way, and always stood my ground. At the door, Mr. Pushy quit trying to get past me. I soon noticed the other horses moving out of my way with a small wave of my hand. My own horse, who is near the bottom end of the pecking order, had a marked change in his behavior when I lead him past the dominant horse. He no longer reacted to Mr. Pushy, but walked quietly along with me.

Linda
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2008 - 10:40 am:

This idea works with dogs too.. I always get a puppy before the old dog is done.. as the older one teaches the new pup right and wrong place to poop.. teaches the pup we are not allowed to go out of the gate EVER.. teaches the pup patience.. I have not had to train or scold a pup in years.. the old dog does it for me..!~

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
deedles5

Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2008 - 12:26 pm:

I clicker train my horse, an 8 yr old gelding, not particularly dominant. He is pastured with a retired 14 yr old dominant mare. When I am clicker training him, she is fascinated and watches attentively. The first thing I teach is "turn your head" so that they are polite and not pushy. They were standing with their heads over the fence, I approached with a treat, said "turn your head" and they both turned their heads, simultaneously, in opposite directions.
I thought it was completely hilarious.

They certainly learn by watching!
New Member:
wiggly

Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2008 - 2:09 pm:

Wow, I never taught my horses to turn their heads, but a couple of them do when I bring their food up and tell them to back off. I was thinking they were not complying because they didn't back UP. Now I see they were minding their manners in their own horsey way.
Member:
kamibroo

Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2008 - 4:35 pm:

I've been doing this for years. I let the young ones loose to watch everything before its their turn. Usually they have a "oh, me too, me too" attitude by the time its their turn. Other people said I was crazy thinking that it made a difference and said I was just lucky to have nice horses.

One filly was watching as I showered everyone else with the hose one day until she couldn't stand it and shoved in to be next in line. When her turn was done, she still hung around to be squirted.

They always get to watch the farrier do all their friends first. Makes for some very interesting looks as they twist their head around to see exactly what's going on. Then when its their turn, they've never been a problem (well, until it gets boring and they want to go back to play)

I also clicker train and always let the newbie loose to watch a session with a more experienced horse. With the exception of one horse, all have jumped right in to give it a try.

In my experience, the reverse of this is also true. If you let them watch an obstinante horse or a refusing horse, they will also try the same tricks or take the "not me either!" attitude.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 11:09 pm:

I wanted to add another anecdote to this thread.

As discussed elsewhere, I recently foaled my older (dominant) mare, and then her maiden half-sister 6 weeks later. I had thought about how to prepare my maiden for her new job, and decided to stall her next to her sister during foaling and early baby raising, to let her observe an experienced mare. I brought them both in from pasture when the older mare was close to foaling.

Both mares experienced some trouble in delivery (the first due to the size of the foal, and the second due to a minor malpresentation).

When the older mare got into trouble, she fortuitously DrOpped by the stall door, and allowed me to deliver the foal into the aisle, and then move him into the stall for her. In the delivery photo, you can see the maiden mare watching intently.

When the maiden got into trouble, I was observing from the next room. She was running, DrOpping, thrashing. I went to the stall door, and told her to whoa (or something like that). To my relief, she DrOpped by the stall door, giving me the safest possible access to correct the malpresentation, and she delivered the foal in the stall door, and waited for me to move him around to her head before standing. She proceeded to clean and nurse the foal in a replica of her sister's behavior.

I noticed when I compared the delivery photos that the mares are in nearly identical foaling positions. While I can't swear that the maiden learned to DrOp by the door when she was in trouble, it certainly was very helpful to me and to the foal that she made that choice, and I tend to believe that she learned the ropes by watching her sister.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 12:46 am:

Elizabeth, your observations and theory make sense to me. I wonder how many maiden mares might benefit from the example of a more experienced broodmare. Seems like that would be the situation in the wild, although I have heard that mares in the wild look for a bit of privacy when they go into labor, and introduce the foal back to the band once its up and strong enough to stay with mamma and the herd. Anyone here know? This certainly raises some interesting questions.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 11:08 am:

Elk, that is a very interesting observation. I suppose we have to draw our own conclusions but it seems likely the maiden learned from watching her sister.

This suddenly gives me an image of a whole "classroom" full of horses watching us train one horse. Imagine the possibilities.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 2:08 pm:

Many years ago in his third stage habituation, Able, (Arab/Mustang mother and champion Standardbred father) and I went to horse shows and timed events, (both 'pumpkin rollers' and up).

The first time I noticed his cognitive perceptivity was at a timed speed event series. I'd chosen the pole event and there was quite a line up ahead of us so we stood by the arena fence and watched them for about 45 minutes. Like so many things in third stage habituation, it was new to both of us and I'd planned on racing down and then just walking or trotting through the poles and back and racing out to the timer. My thought was that if we both decided to do a little competitive 'pole bending' later on that it was important that he understand we aren't supposed to touch or knock down the poles.

If you've ever watched the top 'pole benders,' the horse's action itself is not 'weaving' but more like a 'lateral dance combined with tremendous spurts of forward impulsion.'

Our turn came up and we barreled as planned, did a sharp 'powered turn' and I found myself fighting to keep him from what I thought in those first milliseconds of the time was some sort of weird 'bolt.'

In actuality, he was doing the 'dance,' (for want of a better description) as perfectly as he could.

I chalked it off to 'coincidence' and left it at that until the next show in a trail class we entered where we were second in line to start.

The thought popped into my mind to test the remote possibility that he was somehow attempting to duplicate/compete with the other horses. So just for the heck of it, I signaled to the judge we had 'tack problems' and we were put at the end of all the other entries.

We almost 'aced' one of the most unusual 'trail classes' I had ever seen, (other than the National Indian Horse shows).

Through the years, I made a point of us 'watching' other events we entered and he never failed to bring a 'red-blue or yellow,' (unless there was a bit of 'politics' involved).


Granted, some was due to our relationship.

And admittedly, Able was, (and still is) a fierce competitor.

But there is no doubt in my mind that he 'reads' and comprehends what the other horses are attempting to do (and still have most of those 'red-blue-yellows' covering a goodly part of the front entry wall to prove it).

go figger.....





Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
digger89

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 3:03 pm:

On the down side of learning from the dominant horse, my very personable and intelligent paint intently watched the vet treat the other horses first then ran out of his stall when the vet approached him! We learned that he had to be the first one to be shod or treated by the vet or he wouldn't want to let them near him. He also taught 2 other horses in the next stalls how to pull blankets off the racks, pull things into the stalls, and how to walk across tarps. Sarah
Member:
etiology

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 4:14 pm:

That's what baffled me a bit about Able Sarah. There was a great deal of anxiety-apprehension-fear-frustration scent/stimuli from the other horses around us. Yet he never 'picked up' on all the negatives.

?

All I can say is what I usually do........

"Gotta LUV 'em!"

Chuck Mintzlaff & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
(And N i k k i )
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