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  Discussion on Rescue Weanlings Gentling Issues...
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Member:
mitma

Posted on Saturday, Mar 8, 2008 - 11:21 am:

Hey Everyone!

Here is yet another long-winded posting of mine that I need some advice for!

Many of you know that I recently acquired two rescue weanlings... yes, these are also from "closed" PMU ranches... they are AQHA/draft cross fillies and are half sibs, as they are by the same stallion. For pictures, see my other recent thread... https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/212685.html


As far as I know they have never been handled... (with the exception of going through a squeeze chute several months ago to have labwork drawn for their coggins, etc... and, apparently, to have a halter placed at that time.)

Now, they arrived on January 20th, so, for seven weeks I've been working with them, sometimes daily, but at least every other day. They are stabled, each in their own stall, in the "isolation" barn which is a very large run-in-shed with three portable stalls inside... we have attached several stock panels to the opening of the run-in in a manner trying to create a round pen effect, though the circle is not "even", the diameter is only about 35-40 feet, and the area is on a slight incline with "pasture" footing... all of these facts make it less than ideal, but it is what it is...

Within 24 hours of their arrival, the larger, light bay roan filly, Lucy, APPROACHED me to make contact... basically, she stuck her nose out and nuzzled me, then tried to bite me! Well, I avoided contact with her teeth, but was then able to rub her face and later her neck... within another day, I was able to rub her pretty much anywhere and I started grooming her... then, I was able to take off the "way too small" halter that was strangling her! Later, I was able to hold another halter up to her, she sniffed it, I rubbed it on her shoulders, neck, and head, then I just put it on her (via approaching the underside of her throatlatch area, not over her ears). And, since that moment, I have taken it on and off and led her several times... she responded to pressure and release very nicely; she has learned a verbal "whoa"; she has even been out for walks around the property (with me leading her with a 12 foot lead and a "helper" attached to her with a 30 foot line); during the first day out of her pen, she attempted twice to lunge away, but we were able to hold her easily and she responded to the pressure very well, by halting... I have also picked up her two front feet! The only issue with her so far, is that sometime during the first week when I was able to halter her, she got "hung up" on a water bucket full of water in her stall... Since it was so bizarre, I wish I had taken some pictures, but when I saw it happen, I literally called for everyone at the barn to come and help... when it happened both fillies were still in a single stall together... Lucy, with her brand new, bright blue, Weaver, break-away halter, started rubbing her head against the water bucket hanging in the stall, and managed to get the "double snap" hook (that was holding the 20 gallon water bucket onto the ring on the wall) "snapped" onto the upper side ring of her halter... you know, the ring that connects the poll strap with the throatlatch strap! Well, once she realized she was "tethered" she reared back, broke the the baling twine holding the snap to the wall, then became a reining horse, spinning around and around, with the water bucket attached to her head! She is really a sensible, smart filly, because it didn't take very long for her to realize that if she held still, the bucket wouldn't chase her! So, as she stood still, shaking a bit, we entered her stall with a stock panel... and were able to position it between her and Darcy, thus allowing Darcy to run out of the stall... we gently pushed her against the side of the stall and then, while two of us held the stock panel, the third person took the bucket, now empty of water, and halter off of her head... whew, so much for break away halters!!! Even after the incident, I was able to easily approach her with a halter, rub her with it, and place it on her again...

Now to the problem child... the smaller, dark bay filly, Darcy, remains timid, rather fearful, and I have been unable to make any significant contact with her... Of all the time, I have spent with these fillies, I have spent 80% with Darcy! I find the differences in their behavior so remarkable... first, they are half sibs, second, they were "raised" in the same herd of broodmares with the one stallion, and, third, they traveled across the country in the same stock compartment! And yet, they are so very different! With Darcy, I began by just standing in her stall for long periods of time and looking somewhere else besides at her (though they were both in the same 12'x12' stall in the beginning, once I was able to halter and lead Lucy, she was put in the adjoining stall, and now, they both will follow any of us into their respective stalls at feeding time! ) Then, I began, very carefully, using the stall as a mini round pen (yes, Denny, I know that the space is not enough for safety...) Basically, I would point at her hind end and "move her feet" around me... then, as she flicked her ears and started to chew, I would take pressure off of her by turning away from her slightly and softening my own posture (Sylvia Scott's stuff, she is a Frank Bell person)... I have also done some of the John Lyons stuff, clucking to have her turn and face me; she has tolerated me approaching her very closely and she has "sniffed" my outstretched hand, but has been unwilling to allow any contact with any other area of her body.

Now, after 6 weeks of this, I began to feel some pressure... these babies have not begun any vaccinations or deworming, etc... and they need to be going out with all the other weanlings soon, so the isolation barn can accept horses coming in for breeding, training, etc... (the owner of this facility is a wonderful equine vet who is primarily a repro guy and spring is when the population of the farm really grows!) So, since the weanlings will follow us into their stalls for their feedings, I decided to offer Darcy a "studmuffin" treat from my hand... this, of course, was prior to the article in "The Horse" about rewarding horses with food... she loved it and though I don't think it's a great idea to use food (out of hand) in "unbroken" horses, it has clearly helped further our relationship.

And, now to the finale! Since she will stand very close to me to eat a treat, this allowed me the opportunity to clip a long 30 foot line onto her halter while she was standing in the pen... now, before you guys yell at me, I did this after discussions with several amateur NH people, as well as the equine vet who owns the facility where they are stabled... and, I only did it with the vet and one of his interns present. So, as you can imagine, all holy #@$% broke loose! She ran around and around the pen, dragging the rope behind her... I had attempted to hold her when she backed away, but was unable to... after a few minutes of her reversing her direction a number of times, and of course, winding the line around her head and neck a few times, she managed to get hung up in something and virtually "clotheslined" herself. I thought that she may have broken her neck, because she went flying through the air, all fours off the ground, and got yanked down hard, when the rope got caught. Fortunately, she did get up and moved everything, without apparent injury, and then, started to settle down. At this point, my wonderful equine vet took over, was able to pick up the line and put some pressure on her... she fought some, even reared and flipped over once, but, finally, did start to give to the pressure, and was rewarded verbally and with us turning away from her. After a few minutes of her improved responses, we opened her stall door, allowed her to trot in, and I was able to approach her, give her a treat, and unhook the line. I went home two hours later, after she cooled off and was fed, and had a DRINK!

Now, this event happened this past Tuesday, and on Thursday, I bravely attached a short lead onto her halter while she was in her stall, allowed her to run around, then calm down, then I approached her, picked it up, and worked with her on giving to the pressure. In the 30 minutes I worked with her, I was able to touch her nose for an extended period of time, and began to rub the underside of her jaw and sides of her cheeks, because when she pulled away from me, she felt the pressure from the rope, when she stopped, I released the pressure immediately.

I know this has been long and I apologize, but I wanted to be complete with all of the events... So, have I ruined her??? Should I keep up this approach, until I can safely lead her and touch more of her body??? Denny, can you visit me in Virginia BEFORE the Frank Bell clinic in April (yes, I'm still on the waiting list to take a horse, but either way, I will definitely audit!)

I appreciate any thoughts!!!

Martha
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Mar 8, 2008 - 12:01 pm:

Wow Martha, it is strange that these two are so very different about handling. Horses are so tolerant I doubt very much that you have "ruined" her! I think actually, you made some progress if she's learning now to follow a feel on the lead rope. At least the smaller one is the problem--that other one is a big girl! I know a lot of people feel giving treats is a big no-no, but I have found I can teach things about four times faster if food is involved! The trick is that they never get a treat by asking directly for it--pushing, lipping, etc. And the reward can be random--not every time they improve. I also say a word, like good or good job, with each reward and then they can associate that with finding the right answer and it becomes a reward in itself. But whether you reward with food or not, it sounds as if you're on the right track. Usually, foals are itchy, and once they find you can scratch their most itchy place, it's hard to avoid them! She's going to make you work a little harder, but you're going to learn a ton from her! Baby steps, lots of asking to give and immediate release--it's just the basis of everything we want to do with them. The other thing I'd probably try (and keep in mind, I am no expert!) is moving her around that round pen, but in a low key way and mostly asking her to change direction often--not any full laps. If she starts to give you even an ear, take a step back and release the pressure. Then move her off again as soon as her attention wavers. When she finally turns to look at you, I'd walk backwards away from her immediately. I don't much like round penning until a horse is sweaty or breathing hard, but sometimes there's just no other way to get the job done. I'd rather they look for answers than just submit for lack of air, but maybe she needs to find it's easier to be with you than not. Anyway, as she will face you and stand still, walk toward her with a very neutral posture. If she moves, send her off and do some more changing direction until she faces you again. To help get her to turn into you, as you step toward her to initiate the turn, as soon as she starts to turn, take a step back. If she turns in, keep stepping back. If she doesn't step toward her and drive her off the other way. So confusing to try to explain.
I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time with her--it's such a noble effort! I've been very blessed with the three I have. They hadn't been handled either, except for drawing blood! But they were a real tribute to their breed and made it easy for me! Gotta love those quarter horse minds! Keep us posted--you are going to feel so much gratification when this girl comes around--and she will, mainly because you're persistent! Good luck, Julie
Member:
pbauer

Posted on Saturday, Mar 8, 2008 - 5:43 pm:

Dear Julie,


Really gleaned a lot from your post. You made some very good points. Improving my horse training (care and other) skills... it's always an ongoing process.


You're kiddos are beautiful, too!


My Very Best,
Tonya

Member:
zarr

Posted on Saturday, Mar 8, 2008 - 7:03 pm:

Martha, she's not ruined you are both just learning about each other! A family of 8 grew up across the street from us and each one was similar in looks but responses to life were very different. Tis the same with horses. :-) As for treats YES I'm usually grumped at by lots of horse people but as Julie said it expedites learning and I've never run into trouble with mine or the 20 some I worked with, Enjoy and keep us informed. Cindy
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Mar 9, 2008 - 5:14 am:

Martha ditto to Cindy, and imo you didn't ruin but rescue the filly her life is so much better at your place she will forgive the odd mistake and as long as she makes progress I cannot see harmfull mistakes.
Jos
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Mar 9, 2008 - 10:27 am:

Martha,

It seems the first filly is the 'I think I'm special-do you wanna get to know me?' type and the second filly is the 'I'm pretty special-I don't need you', type.
So you will have to get into her space and insist she deal with you.
Julies description of how is super.
Just keep at it and she will come around, although her personality may always keep her somewhat aloof.
These tough nuts are soo rewarding.
Good for you for taking your time and being so patient with her.
Member:
terrido

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 2:52 pm:

Martha, Sorry but I can't help but think there is a much better way to work with this one than the usual approach. Just me probably.

I have to apologize I know this is all mostly tried-n-true approach to working with a new, unhandled, horse. But from your description I "see" an extremely frightened little girl. Why try to induce a relationship based on fear? Sorry I would use a totally different approach with her than these usual means. I have a horse that has been 'fear trained' and he was too much a handful and dangerous. Force just gets him "angry", I had to learn a different way to work with him to get his cooperation and gain his trust. The usual pressure, approach/retreat just didn't work with him at all.

Again, just me. It just doesn't sound to me as if you will really be able to make good progress if you continue this way with her. Oh she'll eventually do as asked. What I mean is, will she do it because she fears not doing so? Will she do it because she feels trapped and must do so to have "relief"? Wouldn't you much rather have her do as you ask solely because she wants to do what you ask - and eagerly, and without any fear or angst?

That would be my question, how to do that in general. And yes, there are other ways.
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 3:19 pm:

Martha ... ever heard of "pole gentling". This sounds like the perfect case for this. Basically get yourself a 10' bamboo pole or equivalent and while in the stall, you can reach her from anywhere. Just touch her with it lightly and she will probably pull away or run off to hide, but if you are in a 20' area, she can't escape the length of the pole. Keep trying to touch her with it at the withers area, and pretty quickly she will stand and let it rest on her withers. When she settles a bit, rub it back and forth across her withers and it will feel good to her. When she starts accepting this, move the pole to the back area, etc until she begins to accept the pole on most of the topside.
Gradually shorten your grip on the pole as you rub her with it until you are eventually within reach. While rubbing with the pole, start trying to touch at the shoulder with the back of your hand with you standing in a diagonal from the shoulder.

I know this is not as simple as it sounds, but it has worked wonderfully for me on many occasion. Give me a call or email if you would like for me to expand further.

DT
Member:
mitma

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 4:49 pm:

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all the comments so far... I'm on my way to the barn right now to work with her again... Since the event last week, I've had a regular lead line on her twice while she was in her stall... She has moved around a bit, but has settled within a minute or so each time; I've been able to pick up the rope and exert pressure... she has responded well and I am up to rubbing and scratching her chin , the sides of her face, and NOW, the upper portion of her neck... YEAH!!! I am also using abundant treats for positive reinforcement and she definitely understands "candy".

Dennis, thanks for the pole gentling suggestion; Bob Claymier actually introduced me to the concept about a month or so ago (I had called him to see if he would take this babies and work with them, but he was unable to at that time... in the end, it's probably just as well). Now, as I didn't have a bamboo pole readily available, I decided to try the maneuver with the handle portion of a lunge whip... I figured that since it was soft and pliable it wouldn't hurt her or me. What I found was that she was very willing to make contact with this using her nose, as she has been with any part of me, but the few times that I approached her shoulder and withers, she completely flipped out... raced around her stall, tried to climb the walls, etc... just very "afraid"... so, I had abandoned this method. But, I will email you directly soon and pose some additional questions... THANKS!

Terrie, I do hear what your saying and I am incredibly concerned about this filly, but I will say that I have seen her "experience relief" and look quite interested during the last two sessions in her stall... in many ways, my experiences with her remind me of some of those I had when gentling my mustang 18 months ago... only then, the issue was "don't get near my head, especially with a rope"... with my mustang, I was able to make physical contact on her shoulder, then her neck, then virtually all over; and, after only three weeks with her, I was able to groom her all over while she ate dinner (as long as I didn't have a lead line with me) and she even learned to pick up her feet during these sessions... For my mustang the real relationship involving a halter and lead rope took several months, though it was mainly any rope that freaked her out... though I was able to halter her after a month or so with reasonable acceptance... I went through many hours of "wearing" lead lines and lunge lines wrapped around my head and shoulders (I am NOT kidding!)... just anything to help desensitize her to these evil things that humans insist upon! My mustang is now very comfortable with ropes, in fact, has recently started under saddle! For my weanling Darcy, much of how I interact with her is mitigated by where she and Lucy are kept... and, the environment can only be optimized, not changed.

I will keep everyone up to date! Thanks!

Martha
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