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  Discussion on New haflinger slings me off, races to barn
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Member:
winifred

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 1:17 pm:

Hi, this may be long, so I'll try not to be chatty. I need advice in a serious way.
I have a paint gelding. He's very sweet, and I rode him comfortably around my property until he developed chronic diarrhea a year ago.
I am 61. I rode in college and in my younger years, but was primarily a dancer in my adult life. I'm very fit, and I have pretty good balance and body awareness, so felt confident that I could ride a horse around my property, nothing fancy, just comfortably riding a nice horse around a little bit, even though, again, I am 61. And relatively new to horses. Except for Buck, my paint.

So three months ago I bought a seven year old Haflinger. He was so cute, and seemed so sweet. He was pushy from the beginning, though, shoving through the stall door once, refusing to lift his feet. With my calm (!?) assertive consistence (I'm not kidding, actually) I managed to make him stop that, and was feeling pretty good about trotting him around the barnyard, sometimes with just a halter, sometimes bareback. Easy, greasy.
The trouble began when a too-loose saddle fell off a month ago, while we were riding in an enclosed area with the gate to the barn left open. I fell off, he galloped madly back to the barn.

The identical thing happened two weeks later, one week ago. I landed on my back, he galloped back to the barn.

Still my fault, I told myself, have to learn how to cinch a saddle on his fat back. So yesterday I decided to hell with the saddle, I'll ride him bareback like I always rode my sweet Buck, and I'll even wear my fancy new hi-tech sticky full seat breeches.
So yesterday we rode gently, mostly walking, around my pond, and as we approached the house, he caught sight of the open (I know!) barn gate and BAM! he twisted sharply to the left, slinging me off to the right just like before, and galloped back to the barn.
Today, I'm sorry, I just don't like him much. I can hardly move, and have offered him back to his previous owner, who may or may not accept him.
Is there anything, other than sell him, that I can do at this point? I'm nervous about getting on him now, which makes things about a thousand times worse.
Thanks so much for anything you can offer.
Winifred
Member:
stevens

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 2:03 pm:

Hi Winifred,

The saddle problem may be that it's not wide enough for his "fat back".

That said, I'm 49 and in the process of rehabbing my warmblood who has a tendon injury. He's dumped me twice in the last 3 months. I'm putting up with this only because I realize that he has a ton of pent up energy due to his injury and the personal knowledge that he is fundamentally a very sweet and kind horse. I've considered sending him to a rehab barn for my own safety and am now paying a much younger, bouncier individual to ride him at least twice a week. We just started trot work, so there's a light at the end of my tunnel.

That said, I believe that life is too short and there are too many nice horses out there to put up with bad behavior. This is supposed to be fun. I suspect his previous owner is not surprised by this behavior and were I you, I'd play that up and get my money back.

Short of that, you could decide that you want to keep him and then can invest more money in getting him trained. Then spend the time to build your confidence back up.

Good Luck,
Chris
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 2:13 pm:

winifred.. (love your name btw) :-)

i think that you are totally normal in thinking that. just sit on it for a bit, if you haven't. is this his only fault? and i wonder if he had it at the last owner's place. barn sour.

If i was in this position, i would think about this...

Do i have the energy and time to retrain this out of him.

is it a longstanding problem or did it just start with me owning him. thereby its something I'm doing, not the horse, and no matter what horse i get it might do the same.

is selling him back and getting another going to help my fearfulness subside??

could these problem encounters be solved in getting a proper saddle? or no matter?

I think i would try to answer these questions as best honestly as i could and then make a decision. i don't think that no matter how good a rider you are, getting on bareback on an unknown horse is a recipe for disaster. unless you can guarentee you aren't coming off.

I did have a horse that i became afraid to ride. first it was under english, then i moved to a western saddle, and then it was just i never rode her anymore...Never once was i as brave as you and would ever get on her bareback...And she is now out... You have to do what is best for YOU and if that entails finding a smaller, older, more genteel horse, than that is what you should do. at 6 years old they still have all that spunk.. if you're goals are a mellow romp around the farm, then an older horse might be a better bet...
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 2:20 pm:

Hi Winifred,
I hope you feel better soon. I think that he may have learned a new habit. He is probably a bit lazy and also smart to see an opportunity to go back to the barn. If his back is very round you may need a brest collar and maybe even a crupper strap. Does he have a channel along his back? If so he is too fat. He may be barrel chested with low withers. A trainer named John Lyons says to only ride where you can safely and you need to make sure that gate is closed until you have better control. And be specific in what you want him to do, he is testing you. My family used to have a arab/ welsh cross pony who dumped my sisters and brother. She never did it to me because I always used a saddle and rode proactively. Your haflinger is not a sunday afternoon in the park but he will challenge you to be a better rider. A trainer named Charles Wilhelm up by San Francisco (he has a web site) has a horse that was and still is challenging. You would not know it because he is so well trained but he loves that horse for making him the trainer that he is today. And make sure that you wear a helmut, it will help give you some confidence. You may also want to take some lessons from a trainer, can you find one who will come to your place? I work with a dressage trainer every week and he rides one of my horses while I ride the other.

Cynthia
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 2:38 pm:

Ouch! Sorry to hear about your fall. I can relate to your situation. Now that I am "getting long in the tooth" I find falls much harder to shake off. I can also relate to "not liking him much" right now. He's been pretty bratty.

Whether you choose to let him go or continue to work with him is totally up to you. As Chris says, life is short and we do this for fun. He may turn out to be a nice horse for you with some work, but it does sound like you need some help.

The haflinger sounds disrespectful. Is there anyone in your area - teacher or trainer (or both) who could help you with him? I would suggest ground work to create a better relationship with this guy and to reinforce your leadership. I agree that you need to check the fit of your saddle too.

Do some homework and give yourself enough time to regain your confidence before you get back on, maybe a few refresher lessons on a quiet horse would help as well as training for the horse. Don't know if you were wearing a helmet or not, but always wear one. It may just save your life.

Good luck. Hope the new breeches didn't suffer any damage
Member:
winifred

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 4:12 pm:

Thanks so much. I loved being reminded that "we do this for fun." Right now, maybe ever since I got him, it isn't. I think I've felt relaxed on his back for maybe fifteen minutes, in three months; that ain't right!
I don't know if his owner will take him back. I'm such a bleeding heart, when she drives up with the trailer, I'm sure I'll fall apart. I only have a three-stall barn though, so if she won't, I'm certainly stuck with this adorable brat until I can find another home for him.
All in all a pretty crummy day......and thank you so much for your input.
Oh, I meant to say one more thing I did right. When I first got him, he wouldn't stand for mounting, and now he does, like a stone. So, he's not all bad. Nor am I.
Winifred
Member:
terrido

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 4:14 pm:

Winifred, I would just stop riding and start OVEr. A huge fallacy with these types of horses, they are 'sweet and docile' ... yes they can be, but they are horses, and like any horse they do horse things. Which includes bucking and bolting possibly. ;] Also make sure your tack fits correctly, especially with a young horse.

First and foremost what I "hear" in your description is a horse that doesn't know or trust you. And it matters little how long one "has a horse". That doesn't mean they really know you let alone trust you, no matter how long you have 'been together'.

Being in mid-fifties myself, I too wanted a kind, gentle horse cause when I fall off I don't bounce back as quickly. I got a Friesian, and while she is a really sweet horse, she is and was very much a HORSE. Not her fault, of course cause she is a horse afterall. She'd never really been worked with well enough to have good ground manners, you could say she was 'spoiled'. Regardless I of course was a new person and had her at a new place. She had to settle in and we had to get to know each other, learn to trust one another. How you approach this can make a huge difference.

I'd say you are brave for going off riding out but obviously that bravery now has you more afraid. This may be a good thing for you both. Relationships with horses begin on ground. I would just start over from there. Basics, just basics, but he needs to learn to trust you, he needs to learn to have confidence in himself and in you as well. Once a horse basically trusts you the riding experience changes drastically. Unless you are a really good rider with tons of experience and can ride out anything, ya gotta first have a good established relationship. Next you work on a bit of control. A young horse has to be allowed to GO first and then you add in 'whoa'. This can be done easily on a longeline until you are really ready to ride him again.

Working with horses on the ground will build a relationship and will give both of you more confidence in each other. If you don't have much experience here GET some help. I never recommend sending a horse out to a trainer. Sorry, but that usually backfires. Unless of course you can and do go with your horse to said trainer, so you BOTH learn the same things... No, see if you can find a local person to help and work with you both. I recommend you learn to work with your horse under their guidance. This is the best way to 'progress' to being able to ride in confidence.

I started out with my mare on the ground, rode her a bit too soon, she bolted and I came off, spent the next 6 months working on the ground only. I have a fabulous trainer and he spent countless hours with us both working us both thru confidence issues. She with her balance and carrying a rider and me with being on her. When I got back on her it was on longeline. We began with teaching me all of the means to stop her. We even managed after a couple months to progress to having "spooking" lessons where he would purposely spook her a bit and school me on what to do. This helped me gain more confidence in my ability on her. Plus it showed me how she was prone to react to spooky stimulus. Priceless lessons those were even though I was scared to death in many of them. And bless my trainer he knew how frightened I was. When he wasn't sure what Bella would do he would attach the longe line. But mostly even he trusted her to not do anything too stupid. :-)

My bottom line was that after a year of coming off her that day she at one point during a "spook" lesson bolted again BUT she listened to me and as she started her first gallop stride I "asked her to stop" by applying one of the "brake" methods. Each stride I applied this same request a bit more firmly and each time she slowed up more and within 5 strides I had her fully stopped. The difference being first that with my first request to stop, I had her ear, she listened to me the entire time. But we also had established a deep relationship by then too. So as she became frightened she was prone to come to me for direction, trusting that I would be there for her. And of course I was. I was never afraid, which is so not me. I am a devout chicken, and I tend to just go to pure frozen in panic fear right away. If I can do this, anyone can!!

I am a firm believer in building a solid relationship for safety with a horse. If it's yours this is the best way. Not all horses start out as kind and caring of their people. :-) Often we have to earn that.

I have had this girl for a bit more than two years now and I can ride her anywhere because I know she will listen to me when it counts and I also know she won't do anything stupid when I am on her. I recently got brave enough to try her bareback with only a halter (in my arena only!) and only at walk. She is a bit round these days, so it's much like sitting on jello. LOL With me wobbly up there she placed each foot very carefully. Now that's a horse that cares. Two years ago of course I wouldn't have dared to do this, but had I tried I'd have been in the dirt I am sure.

Do yourself and him a favor and go back to ground only and build a relationship and confidence in each other before getting back on him. And then of course make SURE the tack fits well and will not move! Poor boy probably now believes any saddle will slip, that's a horrid fear that will probably take lots of time to unlearn. retrain now. Again, should be done without weight initially. Slow steps, baby steps one at a time.

Haffies can be fabulous horses, they do tend to want to be with people, they do tend to be a bit more "tractable" and gentle. Any youngster though needs someone they know they can count on when they aren't certain. (typical herd behavior) If they know they can count on you that's where they look first. ;)

If you decide to sell him off because you are too frightened to try moving forward with him, you may well find down the road you still have that fear of getting on a strange horse. Most likely any horse you would get might react the same way. In which case you have two options again, 1) get a solid "bomb proof safe with children horse, one you should feel confident in being able to enjoy riding 2) Get help and work through all your (fear) issues and learn. Gain confidence in yourself and with the horse. This would be true whether you keep this horse or get another.

This is all too common a scenario. :-) Ya just cannot beat having a solid trusting relationship and ending up with a horse that wants to take care of you in all kinds of circumstances. Priceless if you plan to keep the horse. And it can happen fairly quickly, doesn't have to take 20 years to achieve.

Some people don't care about longterm and having a horse. For those types then just learning to ride really really well is a plus.
fwiw,
-Terrie
Member:
winifred

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 4:55 pm:

Terrie, thank you so much for that long and thoughtful email. I, too, have wondered about the wisdom of sending a horse off to a trainer; in fact, when my instructor offers to ride him, which of course she can far better than I, I wonder at the benefit of this; it's my horse.

I will think very seriously about keeping him, after reading your post. The few times I've tried to longe him have gone fairly well; sometimes he bucks, with his back feet to me; that feels pretty disrespectful, too!

I do care about him, and understand about longterm having a horse. I really do. I've kept, and will keep, a sick horse for a long time, just because I love him. I am listening to your words carefully, because I'm way too old to learn how ride "really really well" on just any horse. But I do think that I'm capable of riding a horse that I know. I'm just a little shaken up right now, and not at all sure if this one is the one, but appreciate your input, so, so much.

Winifred
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 5:04 pm:

Terrie - Thats a great story of courage, understanding, and persistence. Thanks for sharing it!

Winifred - Neither you nor your horse sound "bad" to me. You sound like a very caring person who is wise and secure enough to ask for help when she feels she needs it. Your horse sounds like a smart little horse who is basically just being a horse.

I had one other thought since my last post. There is a woman near Louisa, Virginia who carries saddles for those sometimes hard to fit Haflingers. Let me know if you'd like her name and number - I have it somewhere...
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 5:12 pm:

Hi Winifred.

Ouch! You're getting some great feedback here. I'll add my 2-bits.

First, in my experience, Haflingers are quiet but often extremely stubborn. I don't know where they get their reputation, but I think the hair fakes people out. Or I've just met the stubborn ones.

You said in your post that you just want to ride around and have a nice time, not that you want to train ornery yellow horses. Of course you could fix this many different ways, but the world is also full of lovely horses that would adore the relaxed companionship you offer. So if I were you, I'd go get me one of those horses and enjoy it, and send the yellow thing to someone who wants to deal with it.

No one can do every single thing with horses. I think it's a hard thing to admit that we just don't want to deal with a horse problem, but we do it all the time everywhere else in life. We have mechanics for cars, schools for children, jobs for spouses.... Why on earth risk injury pursuing something that isn't what you wanted in the first place?

So I vote you find something kind and appreciative, and let trouble seek someone who's seeking it.

Best of luck, and let us know what you decide!

- Elizabeth
Member:
terrido

Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 5:51 pm:

Winifred, would you mind much emailing me privately? Pls use: terrie.douglas@sun.com

Elizabeth does bring up a good point in that you do have a choice here, and should seriously think before taking action.

I would like to offer a few suggestions food for thought really, but would rather do privately, not in the forum.

I just want to close with, you have a horse, who is very good at being a horse. Yes there are many lovely horses available, but most likely you will have to go thru the same "initial" period with any new horse, even one that is "bomb proof" may not be in a new environment with a new person. Besides in my experience a vast majority of those touted to be 'bomb-proof' truly are NOT.

You have not had this guy very long, 3 months is nothing in the grand scheme of things. And if he is young, like under the age of 8 then you have that on top of it all. Doesn't mean there isn't hope, there is always hope. Now it's more a matter of your personal choice.

Email me please. :-)
-Terrie
Member:
dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 7:40 am:

Winifred, your experience reminds me of my first mare, Rosie. She was not fat, just round with no wither. She was impossible to get a good saddle fit. I could cinch her until her eyes nearly bugged out of her head, and the saddle would still slide. It was like riding on a 55-gallon barrel!

Good luck to you...there are several good suggestions here. I enjoy working with mine and training, but if that is not your cup of tea, perhaps moving him on to another home would be best for the two of you. There is nothing worse than having a 'personality conflict' with your horse.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 8:41 am:

I have no idea whether you should keep this horse, only a decision you can make. That being said I have an old mare who is "bombproof" she is a arab/welsh cross and the one I always have put beginners on...even when she was 6.

She would "test" every new rider just to make sure they knew how to make her not run them into a low tree branch. She honestly was as bomb proof as they come, but if you failed her small test you would continue to be "sidled" over to the low tree branch. Once the rider could keep her from the low tree branch they were good to go.

You don't sound like a beginner, if I was in your situation I would walk him in hand around the places he bolts, teach him to stand there quietly.
mount take a few steps in the problem area and dismount (before he gets worked up) walk in hand back to the barn stopping and starting, standing quietly.
Bolting is a dangerous habit and if you have lost your confidence...they feed on that. The one rein stop is an essential in every riders tool box..teach your horse that if you can.

Good Luck whatever you decide.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 8:57 am:

I am going to add something else here that I am very passionate about that may help. I recently got a Equine Massage DVD called "Equine Massage for Performance Horses" by Jim Masterson. It's at Amazon, and his website. His website has a video clip of him working on a horse.

I am just dabbling in this but I am finding it amazing as to how each horse (I have 4) reacts to my touch and how they have like fallen in love with me all over again! I got the DVD to help with a pain issue I couldn't pinpoint, and I am finding the bonding part of doing massage is alone worth it's weight in gold.

So my thoughts are with your guy is do some massage, (it's not hard really) go back to doing basic ground work, and take it slow. In a horses mind, having a new human and home for 3 months isn't that long and he's still adjusting. Be safe and take your time.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 10:46 am:

Winifred,
My horse is young and has given me some hard landings too. I understand the fear issue you are experiencing now. I had similar thoughts about selling my horse and could not imagine getting back on him. That was two years ago.

Everything Terrie says is what worked for me. I took things one day at a time and did ground work for several months. When I got back on him, I was not afraid and I was ready. He behaved like an angel.

I might add in addition to Terrie's excellent post: You mention " I think I've felt relaxed on his back for maybe fifteen minutes, in three months; that ain't right!" I learned that my tension and anxiety is WHAT CAUSED MY PROBLEMS. I can't say that strongly enough. I had to first learn to get control of my anxiety before my guy relaxed and started looking at me as leader. A tense rider is not fluid. A tense rider jumps and startles. Trying to calm down is not enough, you need to be calm. Your horse looks at your tension as a call to alarm. He has no idea he is the cause of your tension, he believes you are anxious because of a threat he does not see.

I read a good book called "Riding With Confidence" which I purchased from Julie Goodnight's webpage. It helped me get a grip on my fear and I learned so much about myself in the process. I still use the techniques and I use them in other parts of my life too. That and time spent on groundwork building trust and bonding with my horse made all the difference. Today I ride him and we are best buddies. I could not imagine selling him. Something about going through the ups and downs and seeing it become successful makes the bond like nothing I have ever known.

I also think you need to step back on the saddle issue. Get one that fits, then work him through his fears without riding him. I hate to say this, but you have created a problem in him due to using a saddle that did not fit. The problem was not there before. It seems irresponsible to not see him through it before sending him on to someone else. Just my thoughts and I am sorry, I do not mean to offend anyone.

Good luck,
Linda
Member:
erika

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 10:59 am:

Well Winifred, some people enjoy a challenging horse, some do not.

I am one who USED TO like a challenge! Now that I am a Saddlebag, though, and require longer recovery times after the inevitable, occasional fall--I much prefer a horse that is a bit more tractable.

You may have an ideal situation. If the seller will take this horse back and can sell him to someone who likes a challenge, then you both win.

I disagree that you will always have a problem with every horse. We have all known those perfect ladies/gentlemen of horses, and they are out there!
Member:
stevens

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 11:00 am:

None of us knows whether or not this particular horse had a "problem" or a history of this behavior. This horse may have been sold to Winnifred without the benefit of full disclosure; we don't know and it's not like "that" doesn't ever happen.

There is nothing irresponsible about finding a more suitable horse for oneself or sending a horse on to a more suitable home, of course with full and honest disclosure. In fact, I view that as extremely responsible.

Winnifred, whatever you decide to do is what's right for you.
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 11:37 am:

Winifred ... A lot of good advice above. I am a firm believer that we first must establish a bond of mutual trust and respect with any horse on the ground before we move on. This is the foundation for all that follows, if there are holes in the foundation, they will always show up at the worst times. I tell all my people that if you want to get really good in the saddle, you got to get your feet really dirty first. Lots of meaningful groundwork to establish Control and Confidence between you and your horse, whether you keep this horse or move on to another.

As a trainer,I start every horse with this program whether it is a 3 year old that has never been handled, or a 15 year old veteran. They all need a good foundation. I often get the so called "problem" horse that bucks, bites, rears, bolts, or whatever. I have found that in nearly every case, when I start with the foundation work and get really good with the horse on the ground, the original "problem" has disappeared and we never really worked on it at all. Most problems are not because the horse is just bad .. it is usually due to a fear or a lack of understanding as to what is being asked. These ground exercises set up the communication process quite well and transfer to the saddle.

Whether you keep this horse or move on to another, please make a commitment to establish a meaningful ground program with your horse. The best thing about getting really good at a series of ground exercises is that both you and your horse will gain confidence and a true partnership with each other. These are the horses that will "save" you in bad situations instead of creating them.

DT
Member:
winifred

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 12:25 pm:

Well, I still have him. The seller has not returned my call, so that doesn't look like a possibility anyway.
Plus, I did go out yesterday and work with him some in the round pen...and we WALKED back to the barn, and he was fine with that. He does seem like a very nice guy, which is one reason why (this may sound stupid) it hurt my feelings so, for him to toss my like that, then bolt back. If he had bolted WITH me, it somehow wouldn't have been as crummy!
I hear what you say, Linda, that it may have been my illfitting saddle that created the problem. It's actually not a saddle, but a bareback pad with stirrups. I have had a teacher for several weeks, and she said it was perfect for him. It is the truth that, perfect or not, it was not cinched properly. I have a saddle for Buck, that is simply not wide enough for Mack (the tossing horse); I feel perched, and that is no fun.

The confidence issue is very real, especially now, and I see how many of you understand that. I'll look for the book that Linda, I thnk, suggested, but I don't understand how you can not just act calm, but feel calm, when you remember how a horse flung you off like you were nothing.

I'm still in a lot of pain, so am not as positive as I may be tomorrow. Landing on my back twice in a week is not good for my spirits!

I think I'm capable of training a horse to do lots of things, and I know I'd like it. Training a horse not to toss me and bolt might just require tons more guts than I have.

This whole thing makes me sadder than I can say, for many reasons, including the fact that he and my sick Buck have become such friends. They gallop together, nuzzle each other. It's sweet

I'm considering every thing that you so kindly have offered, and have read all the posts several times. Thank you..I really, really appreciate your advice and support.

Winifred
Member:
winifred

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 12:42 pm:

p.s.

How can I learn the absolute basics of ground training, that so many of you have suggested?

Winifred
Member:
wgillmor

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 1:12 pm:

Hi Winifred,

How you learn the absolute basics of ground work depends, to some extent, on how you learn. If you are good at learning from books, that is probably the least expensive way. There are lots of good alternatives, but I happen to like the Problem Solving books by Marty Marten. Other members will have other good recommendations.

If videos work for you there are lots available there. Again, there will be good recommendations from other vendors.

You may need to go to clinics or have a local trainer that specializes in ground work (particularly Natural Horsemanship) come work with you. I don't know who works in Virginia regularly, but...

Finally, the best (but most expensive) method is to hire Dennis Taylor and fly him in. Alternatively, you could go to the Horse Advice Vacation in Kansas and probably get more advice than you know what to do with.

Good luck,
Wiley
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 1:24 pm:

So many good people to learn from, but it depends on your finances and time. Videos are great but more expensive. Books and the internet are cheaper but take longer to absorb. If you get RFD-TV on your satellite or cable, check out Parelli, Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox, and Julie Goodnight. Frank Bell has a great webpage and techniques that are very easy to learn.

Here are a couple webpages I found helpful when learning groundwork.
https://www.kbrhorse.net/pag/train.html Scroll down the page to sections Basic Behavior and Principals and Basic Training Approaches
https://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/training.shtml Click on links along the side of this page.

I used this book chapter by chapter, start to finish. Excellent results and very fun for both horse and handler.
https://www.amazon.com/Clinton-Andersons-Downunder-Horsemanship-Establishing/dp/1 570762848/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205256038&sr=8-1

Linda
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 2:01 pm:

Winifred, I just want you to know I agree with Elizabeth's assesment of the Haflingerand don't feel guilty if you like to sell and buy another one for yourself as he is a nice young guy he will find his way.
Just one other suggestion when I was in a similar situation my confidence got much bigger after yes first groundwork with the'problem'horse but after that riding together with a friend with the friend on the horse that frightened me and me on another one. It gave me confidence to see how he behaved under the saddle and on a trailride.
Jos
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 2:35 pm:

Winifred .. If confidence is your goal and you go looking for it, you won't find it. You will gain it bit by bit with each success you and your horse have on the ground, and later in the saddle. It all builds upon itself, and when you get it, you won't have to ask, you will just feel it.

Wiley ... thanks for the nice comments. Will we be seeing you in Kansas?

DT
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 3:05 pm:

Winifred, the emotional impact of a fall can be pretty great. Its funny, there are some falls that don't really effect us that much, and then there are those that really rock our world, even though there may not have been a serious physical injury.

When I read your posts, I really get a strong sense of the disappointment with what's happened with your new horse, and that makes perfect sense to me. Its a lot like the "honeymoon is over." You know, you meet this great guy, you dream of all kinds of great times together, and then WHAM, reality sets in, and you realize that he's not prince charming, but just an ordinary very real guy with strengths and weaknesses like all of us.

Then there is the loss of riding your old horse, with whom you have a trusting relationship, but can no longer ride due to his illness, so there is grief there.

Finally to top it all off, there is the trauma of the fall. I've had a fall like you describe, one where I truly realized the physical dangers of riding and working around horses. Even the smallest horse or pony is a large and powerful animal, and this needs to be recognized for our own safety and survival.

After I got over the initial trauma of that particular fall, I had to do a lot of work to return to the saddle. I read a lot, talked with other riders, took lessons, found a quieter horse to rebuild my confidence, became a smarter rider, and even did some EMDR to "reprocess" the event. I learned how to work with my breathing and release muscle tension to create calm when I felt scared. One of the most helpful things I did was to work with my comfort with falling itself, learning how to release into a fall and not tighten at the thought. (That sounds like it required a lot of athleticism - it really didn't, believe me!)

By the way, I did sell that horse to a rider who wanted a challenge. My new horse came with her own set of problems to be resolved, but they were things that were in my league so to speak.

So give yourself some time. This all makes a great deal of sense to me. You are certainly not alone, and your dream of enjoyable rides on a horse that you love is not out of reach.

BTW, where are you in Virginia?
Member:
sarahb47

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 3:47 pm:

Winifred,

I've been reading all these wonderful posts and basically agree that you do need to work on building confidence, trust and respect -- BOTH ways. Your horse needs confidence in you as the wise leader, and he also needs consistent education and training in respect so that he consistently makes the right decision for you.

When we work with young horses, we basically have to micromanage their behavior with a lot of close attention, hands-on communication, consistent feedback and a lot of repetition, so the horse is so certain and comfortable with what's expected that he's absolutely reliable in familiar circumstances, and can make the right decisions to keep you both safe in unpredictable circumstances.

Your horse isn't there yet, obviously. There's no substitute for hours and hours of training. When someone tells me their horse has had 6months of training, I always ask, "how many hours of positive training is that?" Just because a horse is 7 or 8 years old doesn't mean he's received more training (or better-quality training) than the 3 or 4 year old.

Start with any of the books or DVDs mentioned here. (You can also read my book, Power of Positive Horse Training). Then move on to the book "Bombproof Your Horse." A good one for your own skills development is Gincy Bucklin's "How your horse wants you to ride."

And, by the way, I would NEVER use a bareback pad with stirrups. There's no way you can cinch it tightly enough to keep it in place on ANY horse when you put weight in a stirrup, much less one with a round back. Use a bareback pad ONLY without stirrups!

A treeless saddle with a breast collar might work. Someone suggested a crupper -- but if your horse hasn't been carefully introduced to a crupper, that's another training issue that must be dealt with, as most horses hate the feeling of the crupper under the tail and it takes time for them to get used to it.

So, build the trust and respect relationship on the ground. You've started nicely with foot handling, so you can do it! Make sure he doesn't barge through gates or doorways ahead of you, drag you to a patch of nice grass, pull away or lag behind when you lead him. You'll have to stay on his case a lot at first, but also remember to reward whenever he's doing what you want. (NOT necessarily food rewards, but release-of-pressure and rest breaks and praise touches and a "yes" voice.)

Good luck! Sounds like he's actually a nice boy, just lacking a few of the basics.

Sarah
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 5:05 pm:

Winifred,

If you've been reading on here for awhile, you've probably saw a post or 2 about my Tango. This horse scared the life outa me darn near just by jumping on me and knocking me over! And I am still not riding him and he's going to be 6. Point is, if he's not ready, he's not ready and it's up to us to figure out what is making a horse do what he does, and how to resolve it. (hoping massage helps relax him) Baby steps, baby steps. It's always better to do things slow and correctly and enjoy the journey. Just remember to keep safety in mind; I had my helmet on when I got knocked over which was nice when my head crashed down, but if I would have gotten a hoof in my chest, nothing would have saved me then. And I was more scared after that than I ever was from being dumped off a horse. (and I have been dumped lots of times) WHY? Because it was soo innocent...just standing there after a ground work session.

BTW, I use a treeless saddle on Tango, he's got the build of a Freison which he's a quarter of. I ALWAYS use a breast collar with the treeless saddle. Even then, I've had it go on him off to the side, so I added a good non slip pad and cinch too. Can't be too careful!

Hope I didn't scare you more. I figure I'll probably break my neck going down the stairs and missing the last steps which I do on occasion, not get myself killed by a horse. It's all a matter of perspective, doing to gain confidence as DT suggested, and remember, you can never learn too much about this horse training/riding stuff!
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 9:20 pm:

Right On Wiley!! (Where you been lately Bud??) Winifred, as you can see, we're all proponents of ground work--none of that "ride 'em through it" stuff for us! I too really like the books by Marty Marten--Problem solving 1 and 2. They aren't expensive and I got one of them a few years ago at Costco! They are much simpler and straight forward than some of the others. I learn better from books than videos, but that's an individual thing. Ebay is a great source for videos. Wow, it would be so great if you could go to Kansas this spring--have you seen that thread? Take your time, you don't have to make this decision right now. And if you do some ground work with this boy, he will be a better sale prospect if you decide not to keep him. When I've had people come to look at my young horses for sale, they are astonished at how "broke" they are--before they've been ridden! Of course, they are quarter horses-hee hee.
New Member:
karind10

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 12:08 pm:

Winifred - I hope you are feeling better today. Being thrown does hurt us physically and mentally, and it takes time to recover from both. I hope you will allow yourself that recovery time.

There are many wise posts here, and much for you to think about. I think mostly it's important to realize that what your horse did in his mind was simply a matter of self-preservation; and it's really no different for him to overcome his fears than it is for you. Both of you don't want to get hurt, and both of you have been stressed by situations that made you fear for your safety. He is now afraid because of his bad experience, just as you are. And he will need time and practice to recover, just as you do.

I don't believe he was disrespectful. In most cases, I try to stay away from branding any behavior with negative wording like disrespectful, lazy, stubborn etc. To me, that's anthropomorphizing our horses too much. It's just my way to wonder instead what caused the behavior and how to train him to do differently next time. I hope you will reconsider the idea that your feelings should be hurt by his behavior. When fear takes over, there's nothing in a horse's behavior except how to get safe, that's all it is.

A bit similar to Dennis, I always tell people that it's best to spend more time on the ground standing in your boots working with your horse than time on the ground on your back watching your horse hightail it back to the barn. :-)

There are many good offers here about groundtraining, I like Julie Goodnight very much, and also Mark Rashid (his Groundwork and Ground Driving DVDs are very very good).

I hope you will let us know how it goes, whatever you decide. Only you can make the decision about how to go forward, and what is best for you and your horse. Good luck!
Member:
winifred

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 2:30 pm:

Thanks, all of you. Jo Ann, thanks for your most empathetic post; it has been a rough few days, and I appreciate your compassion.
But, so as not to appear whiny, I will tell you that I did take him to the round pen late yesterday, and longed him for a while, and then DrOpped everything and he followed me around the bigger area like a puppy. Then I lead-roped him up again and WALKED back to the barn, and all was well.
I know that to characterize a horse as "disrespectful" is probably not a good idea, but I can't shake the memory of, after a most peaceful little ride, that he would catch sight of that open gate and toss me off to gallop back to it. I don't see how fear entered into his doing that, whatsoever; he just wanted me off.

At this point, I don't think that I have the guts or the skill or the patience to correct this kind of behavior; it's a lot bigger and more dangerous than teaching him to stand for mounting.

I feel worse, physically, today than yesterday; I think it's a three day thing. But tomorrow I'll take him back up there and do some ground work with him. I don't know yet how I feel about keeping him.

Thank you all.

Winifred
Member:
stevens

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 2:47 pm:

Epsom salts are a staple in my bathroom. A nice hot soak, even 3 days after the event, and a nice glass of wine or small batch bourbon works for me.

Hang in there,
Chris
Member:
karind10

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 3:15 pm:

Winifred - I do understand certainly that many people see this differently. As I see it, horses work on an instinctual basis, with a lot of that instinct about fleeing potentially dangerous situations. In many ways, especially in early training, riding itself can be considered by the horse to be one of those situations. If you add a frightening experience (the pad slipping, the rider falling) to that, well, you get an undesirable reaction reinforced. His wanting you off is part of his natural self-preservation instinct, in my opinion. It's not personal. :-)

I know you will make the right decision for yourself and for him, whether that is finding another horse for you and another home for him; or finding a way to work thru this issue; and the other issues that will likely come up with this young-minded horse.

I do hope you feel better soon!
Member:
terrido

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 3:27 pm:

Ditto on the feeling better part. A few days is not much to feel better physically after a fall of any sort, let alone the mental bits as well.

I agree with what Karin and others have said. He is just doing what he feels me must to do protect himself. Food is also a great motivator as is being with other horses. If the gate being open means 'safety' of barn and companions along with possible food, it's understandable he'd want to go there. Not unlike rental horses that tend to turn and run back to the barn on occasion. ;)

Take your time and think about what you will want to do moving forward. It is your choice. Might just be best afterall for you to sell him and find a more suitable horse.

Best of luck to you and heal fast!
-Terrie

https://www.rana-epona.com/
Member:
dove2

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 4:08 pm:

Winifred,
I, too, am close to your age, and have a whopping four years of horse experience, and have recently felt what a rodeo bronc was all about when my, otherwise sweet, six year old Paint, decided to try it. I would have probably made it through, since in the midst of the chaos I amazingly remembered to use the one-rein stop, but alas, the rein broke in the middle of it and I came off when he spun hard to the right. He proceeded to run to the pasture of other horses, meanwhile stepping and breaking off his other rein.

I guess there will be times when we least expect it, that our horses will do something "stupid," like survival instinct. As a young horse, and your seven year old can be considered a youngster, they do test us. You've made great progress with curtailing his pushy behavior on the ground. He seems like my guy, who just wants to make sure that I'm up to the task of being his protector, caretaker, whatever you want to call it.

I do think that the gate being left open all three times was terribly tempting for him. Have you considered working him by the gate? If he wants to go to the gate, or even the barn, I would make a concerted effort to work him, getting his feet moving at a good clip, at those places where he thinks he wants to be. Then, I'd rest him away from those places and in the place where you'd like him to be. Let him discover something.

All the above recommendations for ground work is so true. In getting back to work this season, I feel like I have to somewhat start over with my guy: short periods for conditioning and building on that as he gets his stamina back; groundwork for reminding him that I'm the one and only he needs to listen to; and now we're doing short periods of riding - even though he protests and lets me know he'd prefer grazing. All this after a very successful show season last year.

It's been really difficult for me to become assertive when I'm normally not. But my horse(s) feel so much more secure when they see me getting the other horses to move, and behaving in a fair, consistent and persistent way.

By the way, my daughter has a young, extremely defensive mare, which I'm now fully taking care of. Slowly, over the past two years, the mare is realizing not all humans are evil (she came with a shipload of defenses), and I have learned so much from her because I have had to get over my fear of her - I mean my terror of her! All she wanted was a person with whom she could feel secure. It's been a very rewarding experience for me because I was really afraid of jiggy, high-strung horses. I have become a better student of the horse because of her. Most important to learn, however, is how to stay safe and how to relax. You never heard someone "sigh" as much as I do when I'm around her. Your breathing (or lack thereof) makes a huge difference to a horse. They're really aware of your breaths, and probably even heartbeat. So practice exhaling more than you inhale, louder too.

I sure someone on this thread has already mentioned the one-rein stop. I strongly recommend that you put that skill on your list, but remember to be soft about it if used during bolting. Since groundwork is so important, it would be nice if folks would share one of their favorite drills here.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 4:35 pm:

It would be so nice if they would share one of their favorite drills here.

Winifred
Member:
terrido

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 6:28 pm:

My favorite drill begins way before the bolt happens. Well most should anyway. I am not a proponent of the one-rein-stop on a galloping horse. Just me.

What I do is instill great brakes without use of hands. I ride dressage and in a snaffle, Grabbing reins with both hands is a bad thing, as the horse will just take the bit in teeth and you've lost all hope of any control.

I have taught my horse(s) three means to STOP, working on a fourth now. When my mare bolts, I apply brakes, she stops quickly, meaning within a few strides.

Course the objective is to have a solid enough relationship that the horse doesn't want to leave you, ie bolt away.

Barring that, and if you aren't a fabulous rider, then best to develop a few skills to handle extreme emergencies. My choice is brakes. Some also use an emergency dismount (baling off), this too can be hazardous, and if you can stay on the horse you may be better off. ;)

As always it's training, training, training.

So brakes, being my tool of choice, how do you teach brakes without using hands? Fairly easy.

The one rein stop is one form, with or without the disengagement of the hindend.

Simply grabbing one rein and bending the neck around will slow a horse if done timed well. You want to time your bending (your hand goes way up rein and pulls in one smooth, sharp, stroke back toward your hip as the corresponding (on the same side) foreleg is touching the ground. WARNING: Should be used cautiously on a bolting horse as you can upset their balance and at a gallop can be disastrous. BUT when previously taught as a major slow up method can help to slow the horse, as one can induce a bend of neck without pulling the entire neck/head around, but mitigating the amount of bend to say 'Hey! slow up!'.

There is disengagement of the hindquarters. This is normally part of the one-rein-stop but can be applied separately. The horse must learn to do a turn on forehand move and understand the rider's leg applied in a certain way means to move the hindquarters over. NOTE on a bolting horse this may not be easy to apply with much result. But on a horse just starting to "act up", it can help diffuse things rapidly. Place leg back a bit behind girth (cinch) and "kick-kick-kick.." (lightly!!) until the hindquarters step over away from the rider's leg "aid" application. For some you may need to also bend the horse's neck on the same side to give them the idea to step over and away when initially teaching this. But from a halt you should be able to move a leg back a bit and push into the horse's side in an on-off-on-off succession and the horse will at least begin to attempt to step over. Praise! release/stop asking as soon as a hind foot moves. Eventually you will be able to move the hindquarters in either direction at any time with little "aiding/cueing". Continue to school the horse by progressing to walk and performing a request to disengage hindquarters (do a turn on forehand) while walking forward to stop the horse's movement. and then may progress to trot.

My favorite though is simply weighting a leg. If you control one leg of a horse you control the entire horse, (per Karl Mikolka) so I tend to just place my focus and concentration on slowing up and stopping one leg. Most horses running flat out are fully on their forehand, so it fits to place more weight into one as it's going touch ground to slow it up.

Simply pick a foreleg, then sink your weight down thru that corresponding (on the same side) seat bone and on down thru that stirrup, stepping down into the stirrup as that leg goes to touch the ground.

What you do when training the horse to understand this is to begin by trying to stop the horse on the chosen leg just as it is touching the ground, of course beginning to do this at walk. At first the horse will probably just keep walking, just try again maybe count out the footfalls for that leg by saying 'now,now,now for a few strides as the horse's foot goes to touch ground to be sure you have good timing, apply a bit more force behind your sinking down thru your butt and on down into that stirrup. If nothing happens keep on walking and once again get your timing then apply it even more forcefully. Keep doing this until you get the horse to slow up a bit, this will tell you how much force you will need to add to get the horse to fully stop.

Use the "patterning/anticipation" that a horse will begin to anticipate your asking to help initially establish a full halt on the chosen leg by walking 3 to 5 strides (get your timing) and applying the weighting. Keep adding more force behind your weighting, possibly reallllly bracing your entire body in the process like you are holding a thousand pounds (cause you are), until the horse fully stops on that leg. praise the horse of course, release instantly let the horse know this is what you wanted.

The beauty is that by continuing once you get the full halt - that you can lighten your request "oomph" and still get the result. Here is where the stride pattern can help, they will start to anticipate your weighting that leg again after the 5th stride and will begin to slow, USE that and make your stop/halt request a bit lighter, but get the stop!

Continue until you can slow up a little or a lot, or get a full halt/stop and you can control what you get by the application of an amount of pressure. Using the same leg for all of this. Then once you have this pretty consistent, pick the other foreleg and go thru the same process. Once you have consistent response on that leg, then do the same with a rear leg, and finally the other rear leg. Then begin to work a much more random way. Vary the strides in between, vary the leg you choose, and don't make any of this a pattern then.

At this point you should be able to slow up or stop the horse on any leg at walk. From here you can do the same thing at trot and eventually also at canter.

The reason this is my preferred method is because it helps my seat sink down further into the saddle. It gives me full focus, which helps me not get frightened too, and that helps a frightened horse! I hold a firm intention that I WILL STOP This horse on this leg and do it NOW. And can be done even if you have no reins, gotta hang on to something tho. haha

Another way is that we train the horse to stop on a verbal sound.

And my fourth that I am teaching my mare to lower head nose to ground by a verbal cue. Course here again wouldn't use this on a galloping horse!

Every work session the first thing I do after we warm up fully is to test out my brakes, it's a great reminder for the horse to pay attention to me, while reinforcing these 'control' cues/aids.

Again I cannot stress enough the relationship will make a huge difference on the horse's choice of actions. Beyond this and/or having great riding skills, catching and diffusing a situation as quickly and early as possible is your best option.

Even just getting a horse to slow up and then you can apply the disengagement of hindend if needed would be a plus.

One other thing, though unless you practice this and can remain focused may be impossible, but I also consciously really lower my own energy levels.

When a horse spooks and you are unprepared you may get frightened and that just escalates things of course. It's impossible to 'calm yourself' or act calm in that panic. ;) I know. But I found that having someone work with me purposely spooking my horse and reminding me step by step of braking means I have at my disposal to be an invaluable tool when I lacked confidence in myself and my ability to ride/handle an emergency situation. My trainer is a godsend, truly. We worked for months on longe line reinforcing brakes in her and in me, and then he would purposely spook her and talk me thru what to do. He had a bit of control with the line which gave me a more secure feeling. Made all the difference in the world for us. Had my first test right after he had unclipped the longe line one day, as a wagon puled by six in hand came clattering down the road right next to us, my mare was very frightened, I simply applied weighting brakes and she settled quickly and we went back "to work".

All of the methods above require previous training with the horse, because the horse has to understand YOUR application. (unless of course you are an experienced rider)

First thing I do on a strange horse is the weighting to stop on a leg, I do this until I can stop the horse and the horse understands what it means, then I go on to ride them. Works. Makes them pay attention too.


Winifred, bottom line here is you should then be able to apply brakes on him long before he reaches that gate. Telling him "NO, you're not going thru there today,buddy." :-) And yes you can do this too it's not that difficult to do, if I can do it anyone can.
Member:
karind10

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 8:37 pm:

I've found conditioning a horse to be soft, under any circumstance, any time, is the best cure for bolting behavior. I teach it from the ground first - with a snaffle. Just stand by your horse's neck, more toward the shoulder, and put pressure on the rein on that side - about one to two pounds, and wait. If you keep your hand stationary the horse really provides its own release by getting soft in that direction. Do it again and again and again, and from both sides. If you're not good with keeping your hand steady, just plant it against the shoulder, or base of the neck once you've found the right tension.

Once the horse does this absolutely consistently, do it again but this time you'll need to be able to hold pressure until s/he moves his hips over a step. Don't increase or decrease the pressure, just let him search for the right response, and release at the first sign of cooperation. You can slowly make it more difficult by waiting to release until the horse steps over twice, or even does a turn on the forehand.

Another thing you can practice is using a slightly lower hand position, and having the horse release by putting his head down instead of to the side. The good thing about teaching a head down cue in this way is that it causes a physiological relaxation response in the horse. A horse's head goes up when it's scared or excited, down when he's calm. If you condition a head down response, the horse will relax too. (This works with scared dogs too, that have tucked tails. Just gently lift their tail from between their legs and they relax!)

You can also practice this with long lines if you know how to use them. It's a nice way to start asking for softness while not on board. If you're not comfortable with long lines, you can do it on board, in a safe place, while standing, or walking. Again, get really good at it before you move on to trotting. Once on board, you can also start asking with both hands simultaneously. Again, if your hands are steady, the horse provides its own release, and they learn very quickly.

Also, on board, and once you've achieved this softness every time you ask, I like to practice a walking/stopping drill. Three steps, halt. Two steps, halt. Five steps, halt. Keep varying the number of steps, so the horse starts really paying attention to when you ask for the halt. First softness, then game play. It won't work well if you haven't taught him to be soft first.

In order to truly condition these behaviors, you have to practice them so much that the horse begins to do them instinctively, under any condition. Much like many of us are conditioned to pick up the phone when it rings, without necessarily wondering if we should or not! :-) For them, they feel the ask and they instantly respond, without thinking about it.

Since you've had trouble in a particular spot, I would do some of these exercises elsewhere, and then as my horse got good at 'em, I'd move closer and closer to the trouble spot and repeat them again and again. By the time you get back to riding in that spot, you'll likely have no trouble at all.

The thing about it is that these drills create relationship and teach communication skills between your horse and you. Taking the time to set that up properly in a horse that doesn't know them will benefit you each time a new issue comes up because you have developed a way of "talking' to each other without confusion.

Hope that helps!
Member:
shanson

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 9:37 am:

Hey, there's no dishonor in choosing to move on to a better trained, more compliant horse that you can enjoy and learn on. It's best for you AND your gelding. His behavior sounds typical of a smart horse who looked for and found your "number" and is motivated to take advantage. A more experienced handler could easily bring him around and he may be pretty easy to sell if you price him right. Hafflinger's are cute and popular. List him on Dreamhorse.com with a few good photos and see what happens.

Alternatively, if you want to put some effort into him and are committed to learning from a difficult horse, find a good trainer/instructor to help you and him get more educated. This horse can teach you a lot, but you need help to get there.

Sounds like you'd rather move on, so don't let the previous owner's unresponsiveness get in your way. Sell him yourself and move on...sharon
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 12:15 pm:

I also agree that you are perceiving his behavior as personal, but he really ran to the gate to escape danger. His idea of danger and yours are completely different. He needs to feel safer around you and you need to feel safer around him.

My horse has a lot of safety issues too. He is not very brave to begin with and neither am I. Yet, together we are getting braver every day. We are doing that by learning to trust each other. Takes a lot of time after bad incidents.

My horse bolted through a fence with me on him, then bucked and threw me off. I kept wondering why he would go through a fence. I mean, his own self-preservation should have kept him from doing that. It wasn't until he bolted once more with me on him, this time through an open gate and up to the barn, that I realized he was trying to get to his safe place. The pasture on the other side of the fence contained all his mates and he felt safer with them than me. Oh, and my screaming "NOOOOOOOO" as he took off probably did nothing to make him feel safer with me! I was tense while riding him and we were in a place we rarely ride so the combination made him insecure. I knew he was anxious before he bolted, but did not know how to handle that behavior.

Watching your horse's body language is called "feel". At the first tiny signs of anxiety horses lift their heads, stiffen their bodies, snort and widen their nostrils, and ears flick forward. They are not "with you", they are in a flight or fight mode. That is our cue to react and get them back in their thinking brains.

So you ask about groundwork. I practice this by watching my horse on the ground for signs of anxiety. When I see them, I make him disengage hindquarters as described by Terrie. I keep pushing his rear around until he focuses on me and not the source of his anxiety. Backing him sharply also works for this. This teaches me to "feel" his mood and teaches him that I am the safe place he needs to come to when he gets anxious. Kind of like a mother leading her kids across a busy street. We get large and say "hold my hand, stay near me" because we want to protect them from danger. In a pasture, lead horses will push the hindquarters of the more submissive ones to remind them who is leader.

I also use "sending" to get his mind back on me. Holding a 15' rope in one hand and 4' stick in my other hand, I hold the lead about 8' from his head in my left hand with my hand up high. I circle the stick toward his rear and say "Aaaaand Waaaaalk" in a very sing-song cadenced voice. He walks toward my left hand, passes it, then I bring my hand down and say "aaaand turn" while pointing the stick toward his rump and taking a step forward. He turns toward me shifting his rear away and facing me. I switch hands and repeat the other way. Then when we go outside to "scary" places, I use this exercise and it calms him down. He used to be nervous anywhere away from the barn, but I have hand walked him all over the farm using this whenever he got "stuck" and had great success. When I ride, I speak in the same tone of voice and that helps him calm down.

Only you can decide if you want to continue with this horse or not. It takes a lot of time and if you don't like training, maybe you won't want to pursue it. For myself, I like working with animals and getting to that "light bulb" moment. I know my goals and I am willing to take whatever time it takes to achieve them. That may not be your idea of fun with horses. However, I do think getting over a bad incident takes time so step back a little before making a final decision.

Good luck,
Linda

P.S. Both of these exercises are in the Clinton Anderson book I wrote about above. He does a much better job of explaining them than I.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 12:17 pm:

Agree with Sharon and stated it already above but why don't you just advertise him [or offer to exchange him for one who seems to be more suitable for you] and in the meantime do all the other things you are advised?[ONLY the ones you like to do!!!]and see what happens?
Maybe someone is longing for this one and I am sure you can find one longing for you just try. In the meantime you can see if your relationship with him improves and always decide to keep him.
Go for pleasure! Whichever way you choose! We[you and I] are to old to stay frightened and not amused to long at one time!
Jos
Member:
dove2

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 12:47 pm:

Linda,
Thanks for mentioning Clinton Anderson's book. I have it in my library but forgot about it. Now that we're coming out of winter and into spring season, and since the horses have been out of work for several months, it's a great way to re-establish a working mindset. I'm using the step-by-step plan for my daughter's anxious mare and she's responding beautifully (respectfully) to it. It's not just for new or young horses!
Member:
winifred

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 1:22 pm:

Oh, isn't that the truth, Jos??!! That's what keeps surfacing, as I sit here on this blasted heat pad, looking out at this adorable horse in the pasture.

I'll go fool around with him later this afternoon, and will use Linda's "sending" instructions.

I'm still waiting to hear from his previous owner, and am rapidly giving up hope! So, maybe I'll advertize him, as Jos suggested, for trade, and see what happens.

In the meantime, should I work on "sending" in the round pen only? Yesterday (fortified by several glasses of wine, I must say) I worked him in the bigger area outside the round pen. He bucked and romped and headed for the woods, but always came back to me, standing there calmly (everything is relative) by the gate. Then I leaDrOped him up and we had an uneventful walk down the hill and to the barn.

He does walk nicely for me.

Winifred
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 1:43 pm:

I would start in the place both he and you feel calmest and safest.
Member:
stevens

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 2:00 pm:

I think some may be misinterpreting the advice by myself and others to "move on" as not recognizing the value of groundwork. This is not the case.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I include groundwork as an overall part of good horsemanship to be used as needed throughout a horse's training.

I think it's a matter of degree and personal interest. I know some folks who have done years of groundwork (I am not exaggerating) on horses in their teens that were going well under saddle before they ever mounted up. If that's what they want to do, that's fine. I personally am more interested in riding, so have made it a point to either work with a trainer or own well-trained horses that may need a groundwork tune-up occasionally, but that I did not need to retrain for the fundamentals. Clearly, if they don't respect you on the ground, they are not going to respect you in the saddle.

If Winifred wants to spend the time (and money) doing the groundwork and other training on this horse, that's her choice. If she wants a horse that she can safely ride in the immediate future, there's nothing wrong with that either.

So I guess the question Winifred is what do you want to do?
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 2:26 pm:

Well said, Chris!
I have often felt that I was misunderstood, too, about the "move-on" recommendation.

I agree that ground work is tremendously important when necessary. But I don't want to spend the majority of my time--at this point of my life--on the ground either. I am not interested in a project horse, and I think that's okay!

Winnifred, you will find plenty of support from everyone here, no matter what you decide to do.

I personally, would prefer a horse that I can ride without anxiety.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 2:54 pm:

You may all be pretty tired of this topic by now, which is understandable. As long as you will post, I will reply; I have so appreciated your input.
I just wanted to say, that after grooming him just now, and walking him around, and making my uneducated attempts at "sending" him, I am again convinced, as I was when I bought him, that he is a good and kind horse, although a little big and muscular for my built and taste in horses.
Maybe it was totally my ignorance, in not cinching the saddle correctly, and in leaving the barn gates open, that made him bolt and throw me. He doesn't seem like that sort now, although I haven't gotten on him since Sunday.
Watching him and Buck nuzzle each other is also a factor; Buck would be sad if he left. But, at over $3000, he's a bit pricey for a companion horse! I'm pretty sure I'll take a bath on this one, no matter which course I take.
He was gentle and compliant on the ground this afternoon, and I worked him a lot near the gate, as you suggested. He was perfectly fine, showed no signs of disrespect, seems to like me just fine.

Again, I'm sure most of you want to move on to more current topics, but thanks.....so much.

Winifred
Member:
karind10

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 3:46 pm:

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a decision that this isn't the horse for you! In addition to all the wonderful things they are, horses are expensive, time consuming and can be a bit frightening. Whether you are in over your head training-wise, or whether you are just not having fun, making a change is always an option - and a personal decision with no right or wrong in my mind.

Winifred, no problem in continuing the conversation. You're still trying to make a decision, and there is lots of useful caring advice to help you find the decision best for you and your horse. I'm new, but I think that's what this place is for!
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 3:53 pm:

I agree totally with Erika and Chris (how about that Darlin')with one caviat. Even if you ride a lot,75% of what you do is on the ground. So, if you move on and get a more amicable partner, don't forget the ground foundation totally. Develop a 5 minute routine you can do before you ride. You will see if the horse has any soundness, attitude, or other issues at that time.
It can keep you safe, and save a lot of future problems.

My associates want to buy me a grooming kit with instructions. They will groom their horses for hours. I clean where the tack goes, check feet, do 2 minutes of groundwork, and I am off in the saddle. I always tell them if all they want to do is look at them looking pretty to buy a picture .. it is much cheaper and safer.

Anyway Winifred .. I support you either way, and would probably recommend you find a more suitable partner. I always tend to look at these things as a trainer and recommend what I would do if training someone else's horse. Your situation is unique to you. If you don't want a project horse, and this one sure sounds like a project, move on and enjoy the journey. Decide what your goals are, and work toward them. I personally enjoy ground work nearly as much as riding, so it is not a big issue with me. My young helper just wants in the saddle.

DT
Member:
stevens

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 4:02 pm:

Hey DT,

Just so you don't stay awake nights worrying about me , I consider it groundwork from the time I take the horse out of the pen until I'm on his back and again from the time I dismount until he's back in the pen. This includes the illustrious grooming time; incidentally I groom both before and after the ride. You should see that baby shine!!

I just don't consider it something special; it's just what I do.

Best to you always,
Chris
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 4:10 pm:

Chris, will you come over and groom for me? I always said I'd ride a lot more if someone brought the horse to the door all shiny and tacked up and I could just step on with my clothes and boots clean!

There are days I feel like I'm just transferring the dirt from the horse to me! Like Dennis, I'm a "scraper and goer" most days.

Uh oh, sounding a little lazy, aren't I....but for me, its all about the ride!
Member:
stevens

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 4:21 pm:

It's a lot easier Erika when you have the horse in a stall!!! Whoops, but that's another thread!!
Member:
terrido

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 4:55 pm:

Winifred, fwiw, you do have plenty of time to make this choice, and no one believes it to be an easy one for you. Either way you choose will be the best choice! ;)

I too believe 'groundwork' begins the moment you see your horse until you put him "home" and go on about other tasks or your day.

Anytime you are with a horse you ARE training it, period. Each look, movement, touch, etc. is training.

haha I too normally "groom" quickly on most days, I am here at home, no one is around so who cares if while I ride the horse is shiny clean?? The horse is normally full of dirt and mud with tangled mane and tail anyway, she lives in my pasture. So I am one also that cleans feet, and brushes the big pieces off where the tack goes only most days. I will admit to doing what I call a "super groom" session about once a month, where I curry the heck out of them and detangle everything. Occasionally will even hose them off, hardly ever use shampoo's. (Horrors, and she is a Friesian with all that hair and black coat)

I am so much more interested in riding, that I hurry thru bare necessaties to be sure her tack is comfy and off we go. But not always. I used to begin each "work" session by brisk brushing all over, longing until she was listening to me well and then I would get on and we would begin our work. These days I do this routine on occasion not as a normal thing. The ground stuff happens off and on through the day, we "play" while working on specific training exercises, but I separate all of that from our "work" time.

Winifred if you decide to go find a new horse and would like a few tips on making sure you end up with exactly the kind of horse you want, I would be happy to give you my check list for purchasing a bomb proof horse.

And will still give the caveat that ANY new horse for you as a new person and in a new environment will have a period of settling in to go thru, and you will have be able to establish the ground rules as it were with the horse. There may be a few uncomfy situations or days, but if you can get thru them, you would have your dream horse.

Again, best of luck!! :-)
-Terrie
Member:
karind10

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 5:10 pm:

I do some 'rehab' work, so in that instance, I find groundwork indispensable, since the horses I get generally come with a history of issues. I have two now, one a cute red roan who finds the world a frightening place; and the other an OTTB, well, with all the problems that brings - physical and behavioral. Taking them back to groundwork has saved me a lot of uncomfortable on board time. I enjoy all the time I spend with them, even if sometimes it's just sitting and watching them graze! Admittedly, my normal grooming routine is a quick all over brushing (just to make sure I'm not missing some new injury), a quick mane and tail comb through and a hoof picking. They're still dusty, but not clumpy! :-)

For pleasure riding, and someone who admittedly just wants a calm horse to walk and trot about a bit, with minimal tack, all that work might be a bit much. I see quite a few older horses that would happily do that work, with ease.

Since the owner is now posting in another thread, perhaps the two of you could just work together and do what's best for this little cutie? Either get him sold, or trained, or have the seller take him back?

I'd hate to see this turn into some kind of discussion board war with folks taking sides. It's good to be forgiving and cooperative and try to kindly work things out. There should be a way for both of you to get what you need out of the situation in a respectful way.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 5:17 pm:

Huh? Where is the previous owner posting--here on HA?
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 6:33 pm:

Good point Chris .. it is all groundwork. I just like to make sure my clients are teaching the horse instead of the other way around. I would like to see it become "just something they do also".

Oh yea ... I will never lose sleep worrying about your horsemanship ..

DT
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 8:49 pm:

Ha Dennis-- I knew we'd get along just fine! I once rode a whole afternoon with WASH ME written in the dust on my horse's back end. I took revenge by writing RIDE ME on the same part of my "friend's" horse, but of course she found it right away and polished it off.
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 9:01 pm:

Ha ha ha ha!!!
I love you kindred spirits!

(BTW, Chris, I eat my words from the other thread upon seeing Dr. O's latest on stalled horses and stomachs. But if I stalled, I wouldn't save any time--grooming time would be taken up by mucking!)
Member:
justin

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 10:40 am:

Winifred,

I noted in one of your posts that you drank before you worked with the horse...do you also drink before you ride, too? VERY bad idea if you do. It's a bad idea to do anything with horses while drinking.

Jane
Member:
stevens

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 11:41 am:

OK, you've each gotten a shot in. How's about knocking it off.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 12:05 pm:

Thanks so much, all of you. I think, now that I know that he has a history of bolting, that I will look for another home for him. I never was interested in riding only in an enclosed area, and that's apparently the only situation in which he's safe to ride.
Sorry about the fireworks last night! Pretty funny, actually. I might turn it into a little cyber short-story!
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 1:08 pm:

Winifred, am late to this but have read everyones posts and can only add if you have not walked away yet why don't you get to know your horse on the ground have fun, just hang out become a friend? He has behaviors you don't know and you have responses that are new to him.There should never be a rush to saddle, all in good time! If you learn what he has to offer and what his buttons are you maybe amazed at what is really there! Karin is right check out Mark Rashid and our own DT it is all about slow and easy ........... Cindy
Member:
juliem

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 1:19 pm:

If you've made the decision to sell him, please commit to getting this horse either with a trainer or a person who will short circuit this behavior. Going from one owner to another usually ends up with the horse at an auction and eventually, no one but the killer buyer bids on him. Then it's that trip to Mexico, where a cute boy like this will end up pulling a cart until he's too weak to stand and then it's the slaughter plant--and a Mexican slaughter plant is your worst nightmare. It sounds as if this behavior isn't entirely ingrained and I think it would be easily stopped with some training. Sad for everyone involved with this, including the horse. I know you're trying to do what's best for both of you.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 2:24 pm:

Well, Julie, that's a pretty grisly scenario. I don't want that to happen. On the basis of yours and Cindy's posts, I just went up to the pasture with both of them, and sat on the ground with my dogs, under a tree. (fifth of bourbon firmly affixed to my right thigh, of course)

One by one, they came up and said hello, nuzzling my face. He is not a bad horse. He's not even a sick horse.

I'll work on this some more. I'm not sure how yet, but I will.

thank you for your support. Winifred
Member:
karind10

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 2:28 pm:

You know, it's so hard to learn to be soft with our horses. So much of 'training' today is training to the level of tolerance and not teamwork.

It strikes me that we do the same with other people, try to make them do or be what we want them to be, instead of just working with them, and giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I know I've not been posting long, but this seems like a great board with great folks with great attitudes toward their horses. I don't think personal venting and vendettas belong here. JMO. Just be kind to each other, and if you can't, well, maybe consider keeping it to yourself.

Winifred, I wished you lived closer, you could bring that cutie right on by and we'd figure something out for you; and find you a companion that would be just the right fit. Just be sure to let people know that he's not to be considered a 'finished' pony when you offer him up; so as Julie says, he doesn't just get passed on from one person to another and end up in a worse place. Take care.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 2:54 pm:

Winifred, just watched a clip on Seattle Slew and thought this might help explain ....Seattle Slew was ever the gentleman as long as he was ASKED to do something he always tried to comply but if one tried to tell him " YOU WILL DO" it was a battle one would never win. Your guy has years under his belt and you will never know what went on both good and bad. So sit under your tree several times and watch your guy , you will be amazed what is revealed .... Best of Luck ..... Cindy
Member:
wgillmor

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 3:09 pm:

Winfred,

The fifth of bourbon is definitely the problem. Halflingers are a breed from the Tyrol and that is distinctly a wine drinking area. He probably never developed a head for hard liquor. I'd switch to an Alto Adige Pino Nero.

(I hope no one takes this too seriously.)

Regards,
Wiley
Member:
valh

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 3:14 pm:

Wiley, That was great! Gotta love this site.
Valerie
Member:
winifred

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 3:17 pm:

I KNEW I was doing something wrong!
Member:
terrido

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 3:25 pm:

:-) Cindy, my TB is the same way, you have to ask him, and nicely! or you get quite a challenge, as in fight. Took me a long time to learn how to ask him but now he does anything I ask of him and happily. Must be something in their blood, huh??

Winifred maybe your boy has a bit of Seattle Slew in him, in his personality. ;)
enjoy,
-Terrie
Member:
leilani

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 3:36 pm:

Speaking of Mark R., he has a new DVD out "DEVELOPING SOFTNESS IN THE RIDER" - worth the price.

I think the horse is trying to tell you something in his own way. Sometimes when we communicate with horses and they finally try in their own way to tell us we just don't listen.

Best of luck. Sounds like you're moving in the right direction. Leilani
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 4:29 pm:

Winfred,

The fifth of bourbon is definitely the problem. Halflingers are a breed from the Tyrol and that is distinctly a wine drinking area. He probably never developed a head for hard liquor. I'd switch to an Alto Adige Pino Nero.

(I hope no one takes this too seriously.)

Regards,
Wiley



On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 4:39 pm:

This will perhaps be my last post, certainly on this thread. I just had to tell you, one more time, how much your input has meant to me.

I will keep him. I have kept an old blind Appaloosa, and a young chronically diarrhetic paint,and now I wlll keep a young bolting Haflinger, that I am afraid to ride.

I will become his friend, have become so already, but probably on the ground only.
Again, thank you for your wisdom and your kindness. This is a wonderful forum.

Things work out as they should.

Winifred
Member:
karind10

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 5:50 pm:

LOL, Wiley! Thanks for that touch of lightheartedness, we all needed it!

Winifred, I hope you will feel free to come back here and post. He sounds like a lovely horse who needs a job, and with some time could be a wonderful riding horse. Hang in there!
Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 6:46 pm:

Good luck with your horses, Winifred. You'll always have support here if you decide to post again!
I do admire you for taking the high road and giving your horse a chance.
Erika
Member:
leilani

Posted on Friday, Mar 14, 2008 - 7:02 pm:

Winifred,

I am so very glad that the horse will have a home. Take care. Leilani
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