|
|
Discussion on Biting..
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 3:50 pm:
all righty gang I have a problem I have not had before.. My coming 2 year old BITES..
He was hand fed his first months, there is a thread on it somewhere.. His mother is a saint never cross with him.. his baby sitter is very tolerant..
I have worked with him doing the Parelli games quietly.. as he is young and will be very tall Appy/WB so I won't force exercise on him.. He knows the back up game/ he disengages his hind end from the end of a lunge line.. he stands tied, loves the clippers / stands for the farrier.. BUT he is always biting at me.. yesterday I was not quick enough and he got my little finger.. the finger nail will be coming off 
So I have tried to ignore it.. when he turns to bite i have him run into a sharp elbow or firm forearm.. I don't want to make him head shy.. My other gelding is mouthy but never uses his teeth. he will undress me, but has never bit me..
WHAT CAN I DO..??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
dove2
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 4:23 pm:
This is quite dangerous (obviously) and I think you need to put a stop to it asap. Others may raise an eyebrow at me, but I think I'd slap him hard - on the neck - with each attempt at biting you. Pretty soon he'll figure out that, hey every time I try to bite the human, I get an unpleasant feeling on my neck. The blocking action is important, and you don't want to make a game of it, but I would definitely show displeasure and get aggressive in response to his biting.
(P.S. I'd also be careful about the gelding undressing you!) 
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 4:28 pm:
Ann, at one time it was recommended to me (by Richard Shrake) to bonk the horse under the chin with your fist...not to hurt, but more to startle the horse. The reasons for this is that the horse can't see you bonking him, so he does not associate you with the punishment. Then, as soon as he get's the bonk, love him up as if to comfort him from whatever goblin scared him.
It's kind of like the "hand of God" correction you do with cats, such as spraying with water...again, they get punished & learn that the behavior is unacceptable, but do not associate it with you.
I've used the correction twice...once for each of the 2 horses I have owned. Once was all that was neccessary as neither ever bit me more than that one time. And neither became head shy or worried with me as a result of it.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 6:22 pm:
Dove2 I completely agree, biting is very serious thus I am asking for suggestions.. .
Fran C I went to a Clint Anderson clinic last summer and someone asked about biting.. his answer was to run into something uncomfortable like my elbow or firm forearm.. But this just does not seem to be stopping the behavior.. I like the bonk on the under chin... but TIMING IS EVERYTHING and sadly my reflexes are not to quick
I would love to put him out with my rehab filly that I am bringing home she would teach him a lesson or two.. but , well with as much time/ $$ / i have invested in her.. in her teaching she would also run and play much harder then i am willing to chance.. He has been cuddled by his mother / his human mother in hand feeding / and his baby sitter and now he is a bully.. A very athletic bully i might add..
I don't feed him treats at all.. his mind is worked in the games.. sending him onto a bridge, walking over poles.. backing a L shape etc..
Any other ideas..?
 
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
stevens
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 6:31 pm:
I had a biter once; I was showing him in hand so would carry nails, pointy side out, inbetween my fingers. Frankly, it slowed him down but never really cured him. The only thing that helped was being super vigilant and doing my best to avoid situations where he felt he could get a bite in.
I think it was John Lyons who suggests trying to "kill" your horse for 3 seconds when they try to bite.
Do you have any broodmare bands nearby that you could turn him out with? I know of one horse that was an absolute brat until she spent 1 month turned out with a broodmare band. She came home with some scars but a much improved, read humble, attitude.
Nasty habit; really hurts when they connect.
Good Luck!
|
Member:
dove2
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 6:36 pm:
Too bad he's so handsome!
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 6:54 pm:
No , we can't say too bad.. I have to cure this / STOP this behavior .. He is my next star. hehehee..
I have thought about the ''kill'' for 3 seconds and well when he got my little finger i pretty much did that.. but noticed immediately that when i went to put the halter on him his head flew up and he backed away.. ugh..
My trainer seems to feel this will go away with more work and time.. I sure hope so.. As i hate telling folks.. careful he bites.. or being so cautious myself..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 7:03 pm:
Yes, it is John Lyons who suggests the 3 second kill, anywhere but the head...I personally don't have the heart for it (and I am NOT a push over), but then again, I never had a chronic biter so my attitude might change if a horse took a good chunck out of me. Hopefully I never have to find out.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 7:04 pm:
We have a section on biting in the article Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses that gives several techniques I have used over the years. A common problem with growing horses and usually easily cured.
DrO
|
Member:
terrido
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 7:07 pm:
He is at that age, he'll test you by doing what he does with horses. Some horses will allow bullying and some won't. But we're no where near as strong as a horse, and he cannot know his strength against you. At this age he is testing himself and his ability to intimidate. It's normal behavior for a young horse. (between 18 months and two and a half usually)
Biting is a bit of a problem, true. timing is important and it's critical you are very forceful in your delivery of whatever you choose to use. I personally like carrying a dressage whip or crop at all times in my hand around a youngster such as this. Anything they do they get a sharp (quick) smack to the chest or foreleg, unless it's a rear end presented then it's on the flank (while jumping out of kick range!) This mimmicks a horse's bite to them, as long as you don't use a large swing where they can see your arm and the whip much, it can make a difference. Slapping with hand for biting isn't a good option really as it can make them head shy, you could though slap their chest hard and I do mean as hard as you can hit. You will not hurt him. The effect is one of changing their focus to the now smarting a little place. And to them it feels much like a bite. Timing is critical though no matter what you choose, you have to be instant and consistent. If he's already bitten it's too late to do anything but say loudly OUCH and back away. You can let him know you are not pleased with him by your words alone and tone of voice. Just do not let your guard down around him, watch him at all times.
This is fairly typical of the age, I am not convinced hand feeding is the beginning, because horses that haven't been hand fed will still bite. It's a horse thing.
The only caution is that some horses will view most anything you do as a challenge and it may escalate so for your safety you must be prepared to fight the battle to the finish if needed. This is why I prefer to use a whip, I can be quick and sharp and keep a distance of sorts, plus then if things escalate I can place it between he and me to give distance. NOTE: I would never beat a horse with it! I would run away first than go there. The training following will just take longer, but no point in beating a horse with a whip.
Just one sharp instantly placed smack to the chest is all it normally takes. Even having a rope and flicking the end sharply will suffice.
Then of course if you do hand feed watch your hand position!! I will not say to completely stop hand feeding, but that's an option as well, I personally continue to hand feed, I just watch my hands if their teeth get too close to fingers they get smacked by whip in the chest.
A 'bite' in response to trying to bite is a just response to a horse. A mare would pin ears and bite, so pretend you are a mare. A well placed and timed bite ends it. It just should not be to their head or above chest level.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 7:19 pm:
Ann what are the things you are doing when he tries to bite? or is it a random act of "kindness". Hanks was a wanna be nipper in his younger day. Do you usually have a halter and lead on when this happens? If so what helped with Hank was backing him soon as he thought about it. He is Parelli trained also and the yo-yo game helped. What cured him I'm afraid after using all of the suggestions above was a good punch in the nose. It took one well timed, well placed punch and that was the end of it. He is not head shy and never has been. I'm sure many will disagree with me but I think the more we try to deter a bad habit "nicely" the worse it becomes sometimes. Depends on the horse, but Hank responds well to quick concise, to the point corrections. I really am not mean .
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 7:59 pm:
Dr. O I will go to your reference..
Terrie your quick reaction ideas are good, and I have tried to be QUICK ..
Diane actually putting the halter on is a HUGE chore.. that is when I finger got it I approach him with halter in hand.. He grabs it and chews it.. I get it out of his mouth and grabs again.. so you see the game we have begun.. once in his mouth I will use fingers in the sides of his mouth to open and pull halter out and quickly pull it over his head to halter..ahh this is where the elbow comes in as he tries to bite something .. lead rope / ME ..
When leading him to the barn he is fine.. as I have him a good distance away from me.. .. the problem is in haltering.. and grooming mainly..
I always carry my stick ''carrot'' stick when I have him so BEATING him with something other then my hand is there..
oh putting him out in another herd can't happen..I have had so many injuries I just could not chance it..
 
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 8:41 pm:
AHHH Ann I get the picture....we had a stallion at the barn I use to work at that did the VERY same thing while haltering and leading. NOTHING could make him stop it. Is your horse a gelding? The trainer tried everything and I mean everything. I couldn't stand haltering that horse for turnout! He was otherwise a well behaved animal as it seems your boy is. I hate to tell you what I finally did because I just couldn't take it anymore....but it worked!!!! I always wore long sleeves around him for fear of loosing my arm. SOOOO before I would go into halter him I would put on my special shirt...used only for him and I would put on the worst tasting liquid soap (don't remember the brand) and rub it all over the sleeve of my shirt, all over any part of my body he could reach and all over his halter. The first time he got that halter in his mouth he spit it out and looked rather perplexed smacking his lips together, I got the halter on easily . It took a week or so of getting a mouthful of bad taste when he finally stopped. I was the only one that could halter him that day forward. OH and vick vapo rub works too. Like washing a bad kids mouth out with soap...it was the only thing that worked. You just stink for a week or smell good depending on what you use...the liquid soap worked very well.
|
Member:
karind10
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 8:53 pm:
If you are worried about head shyness being created because of an exuberant response, you might consider the 'kick him in the shins' technique. It's also a good one if your hands are busy, like when you are haltering him.
Be prepared when you go to halter him, and when he reaches to grab the halter with his mouth, take your toe and bonk him in the shin, just hard enough to get his attention (I joke when I call it "kick" him in the shin). It's good if you keep looking at his head when you do this.
If you do this for a bit every time he grabs the halter, it should diminish his mouthiness before he gets to the stage of nipping you.
I inadvertantly taught a horse to put his head down every time he started to nip because he was anticipating the shin bonk. Then again, if you're trying to halter him that might be a nice side effect!
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 8:55 pm:
A trick a trainer taught me is whenever the horse moves his head close like he's going to bite, or when he does bite, immediately spite on his nose. Horses seem to hate the spit, and I've only had to do it a couple of times. If they start to even act like they want to nip I make motions like I'm going to spit, and they stop. It might be worth a try.
|
Member:
quatro
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 9:38 pm:
Hey Ann, have you thought of clicker training him to "put his head down"? I got Levi to touch a tip of the cone, marked the behavior and gave him a treat, then I lowered the cone, just a small hand held cone, and taught him to "put your head down". Then we started with a head down, halter on and treat. I know a lot of people don't like treating horses, "because they will bite" but biting doesn't have to do with eating treats, it has to do with acting aggressively, or sometimes playfully~ It seems that if you can make the action you are wanting from the horse a pleasant anticipation, you will eliminate the need to bite.
People also thought I was goofy, but horses are teething at that age and like babies and puppies their mouths are sore. I had a nyla=bone with little pokey edges on it, it was shaped like a big dog kong. Levi and I would hang out and he would gnaw on it like a bone while his little eyes would soften and we would bond. I know I trained my horse like a dog, but I am a dog trainer, not a horse trainer, so go figure. I also would put his halter on him right before he got his grain, so that halter was a signal for good things to come.
Levi also was taught the command "no bite" like my dogs, when he nipped at me I grabbed his muzzle and pinched him on the lips, looking him in the eye, and growling a firm "no bite" He really knows that word. But you have to understand Levi also knows "stay, come, come to heel, shake," He probably thinks he is big great dane
Just some silly thoughts 
suz
|
Member:
ekaufman
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 11:09 pm:
He is HANDSOME.
Ok, so many of my babies go through nipping phases, but I have one that really started biting. What fixed it was that when her lips touched my self, I grabbed tight hold of her lip and did not let go until she got way the heck out of my space. My mind set was-- if it's in my bubble, it's mine. So I wasn't punitive, but I just took a real grip on my new lip. I did this because the other approaches didn't seem to resolve the behavior (even the crop correction).
It worked. She didn't like losing her lip, and no head shyness.
|
Member:
jowidner
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 11:52 pm:
VERY Handsome!
Diane, I have to admit I really like your idea. We had a colt like you describe; just an expert at getting halter, bridle, reins, you name it, into his mouth. I think your soap idea might have saved us a small fortune in tack.
Ann, I have used Elizabeth's suggestion of grabbing the lip. I don't even grab it that hard, it just seems to perplex my gelding and maybe even creates a bit of a tranquilizing effect - you can almost see his eyes gaze inward. Anyway, he backs out of my space, the mouth game is over, and he stays relaxed and friendly but mindful of his manners.
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 12:50 am:
I tried the grabbing the lip action and my stud colt just thought I was joining in the game. And, to him, the nipping was a game. I'm sure you've watched colts play; nipping at each other is usually a big part of it. I also tried the elbow in the face and using a nail. In his case the spitting was the only thing that worked. Now, many years later, he is still "mouthy" and will suck on my shirt and chew on his lead, and likes his upper lip rubbed, but he doesn't bite. Good luck! Just keep trying things. What works on one will often not work on another, as you know, but you'll hit on something that works for him! He is beautiful, btw!!
|
Member:
leilani
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 2:37 am:
Hi Ann and he is a beauty,
My Anuhea was a wanna-be biter when she was a 2yo. The first time she tried I was so shocked I hit her in neck with a closed fist screaming!?!!! and, it was within 1-2 seconds. Her reaction was shock as well and it has never happened again.
So far in our 7th year, no flesh biting, just occasional grabbing of saddle strings. I read somewhere that biting is a conscious act vs kicking which is a reaction to a perceived threat.
I have watched our small herd (2 mares, 4 geldings) and when my older mare says 'move', they move no questions asked. She is a very benevolent leader, but I know how she would react if one of the others tried to bite her.
Best of luck. Leilani
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 10:50 am:
WoW gang I knew you all would come thru.. DR. O's article rings some of the same ideas too..
I love the dish soap on the halter idea.. and it will be easy to clean up afterwards!! As this is where the biting game begins.. I try very hard in other situations NOT to put myself or temp him to be in a position to nibble ( hard to do when buzy)
I never thought of 'biting' back on the foreleg, natural reaction on my part is kill the head!~
I have to agree I do think that the young ones teeth.. all mine have been mouthy and love to chew on everything.. Like I said tho,, never to what this boy does.. ouch!
I will continue to be careful / carry a big stick / and will soak his halter and lead rope in a soapy / hot pepper solution..
Thank you all..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
jowidner
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 12:15 pm:
Ann, I'd hold off on the hot pepper. Seems to me that it could be transfered from the halter to his head and then into his eyes with sweat, or from the lead onto your hands and eyes.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 1:03 pm:
Ann Jo Ann is right about the hot pepper, tho I have used it once for something else and had no problems. I put the liquid soap on straight from the bottle No soaking (ivory tastes bad) didn't want to dilute the flavor any. Good Luck and let us know how you do.
|
Member:
lhenning
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 2:18 pm:
My horse was a biter too. I tried using a stick but found he still bit whenever the stick wasn't present. I tried hitting under his head, tried kicking him, nothing worked.
What worked for me began with stopping all treats by hand. Then I watched the horses in pasture. My boy, Cutter, loves to play nippy with his buddies. I decided he was playing with me the same way. One day, I watched him playing with another horse. As Mr. Playmate walked past my guy, Cutter reached out and nipped him on his flank. Mr. Playmate jumped around and tried to bite back, which made Cutter even more playful. Then in walked Mr. Lead Horse. Cutter, in his playful mood, turned to see if Mr. Lead Horse wanted to play too. Mr. Lead Horse did not. He pinned his ears and gave Cutter the GLARE. Cutter backed down and walked away.
Hmmmm, I thought. Maybe I am acting more like Mr. Playmate than Mr. Lead Horse. I first enforced my leadership by making him disengage his hindquarters a couple times immediately after haltering. Then I tied him up. As I walked near his head he swung it toward me. This is when he would normally try to bite me. I glared at him with a hard, cold face that said "touch me and you die". I made him keep his head forward and anytime he swung it toward me, I lifted my arm straight up in the air. Not to hit but to protect myself. Bonk, he hit my arm a couple times. I did this consistently and it has not been a problem since.
I think they are trying to get a reaction because it is fun for them. Give them none and they will look for a new playmate.
|
Member:
karind10
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 3:42 pm:
I do agree that the energy you bring to the horse makes a lot of difference in how they will respond to you. They are quite sensitive to the subtle cues we give off.
Rosemary extract (found in spray form) works well on my cats, I wonder if it would work on horses. I know when I accidentally get it on my hands, it certainly tastes awful!
Also, I did have a horse that responded well to glaring and growling at him when he reached over to nip. I've seen others use a loud noise (NO!) or a hiss, or any aggressive sound. I suspect it's the combination of the sound and the body language that gets your horse thinking you mean business.
Good luck!
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 3:48 pm:
Ahhh good point on the hot sauce.. I did think about it being on my gloves and bothering me, but not about the skin on his face..
Linda that is exactly what this colt is doing.. playing.. he will bite my gelding any opportunity he can.. specially on the back of the leg as he walking by.. I know its a play jester , never thought it was evil intent at all ..
I just need to enforce I am BOSS MARE.. As you can see above , he takes direction great / learns quickly... I hope it will just be a matter of my timing and being consistent..
Such a challenge these guys are..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
|
Member:
sonoita
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 5:54 pm:
I have heard of spraying mouth spray, like Bianca [I think that is right. For bad breath. I heard thoroughbred trainers use it.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Monday, Mar 17, 2008 - 8:03 pm:
Welp soaking the halter in soap kept the halter out of his mouth Now to continue with some other thoughts as far as him biting at me when grooming.. Sara , i don't have any spit left in my mouth by the time i work with him.. I can barely cluck!~ Spraying Bianca sounds like a good idea , but there again timing and having it ready.. I am not a fan of the kicking on the leg, but carry my big stick and whacked him a couple of times on the chest.. he backed up quickly and we moved on from there..
This is going to take time.. Thanks..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 18, 2008 - 6:30 am:
Ann glad the soap worked. So when you are grooming him is he in cross ties? straight tied? or just standing there loose? It is going to take time. Sounds like you have a good start.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 18, 2008 - 10:16 am:
Diane I have him straight tied... Haven't introduced him to the cross ties yet.. This summer i will..
The forum's font is different / i like it.. the background is gone, plain white? Or is this MY computer..?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
karind10
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 18, 2008 - 10:45 am:
Ann, just to be clear, it's not really a kick, it's a bump in the shin. It's a Monty Roberts approach to biting, that surprises and distracts the horse, and doesn't seem to come from you. I just prefer it to whacking. YMMV (Your mileage may vary).
The board skin is different today, maybe they are making some changes?
|
Member:
cpacer
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 19, 2008 - 10:08 am:
Hi Ann, I am just now overcoming this issue with my 2-year old. He was always trying to bite my legs like when playing with other horses. Having my leg or elbow correct him after the fact was not working and I too was worried about making him head-shy.
One day he got me pretty good and I went after him like I was going to kill him, at least I thought I was looking pretty scary, until he grabbed his Jolly Ball like we were playing.
On the advice of a friend I've now started to really enforce my personal space and try to remember he is young and I can't treat him like my adult horse. We're always in training until he learns to be respectful and I always have to be prepared to correct him, or hopefully let him know what is a bad idea as he is thinking about doing it.
He's sized me up with that serpent-head-I'm-gonna-bite-you thing once since I've started doing this, and on the advice of the same friend I tapped his legs with a rope (or use a dressage whip) and he looked at me like "hey, you haven't done that before" and he stopped before he started. I'm hoping this will do it.
|
Member:
cgby1
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 19, 2008 - 9:12 pm:
Ann,
John Lyons also recommends another method for horses that bite and it will surprise you. He said that if you give their head more attention than they want, they will stop. He said to rub on their head until all they want is to get away. He especially recommends doing it to young stallions.
Cynthia
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 20, 2008 - 5:41 pm:
Cynthia-give their head attention after they bite?
|
Member:
cgby1
|
Posted on Friday, Mar 21, 2008 - 12:01 am:
No, before and whenever you are around them. The idea is to give them more attention than they want or like.
Cynthia
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 10:56 pm:
Well gang, I am now able to be around my young horse without getting bit.. The key was one, soaking his halter in soap.. he did not care for that.. and .. drum roll please.. SIMPLE keeping him out of my space at ALL times.. I can't treat him like the others, he has to stand outside my bubble always.. i will come to him for a quick belly scratch or a head rub, but then he has to retreat back to HIS space..
So far GOOD...
 On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
|
|
