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Discussion on Biting
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Member:
unity
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008 - 2:01 pm:
I have two mares; one is six, the other is 5.
When I purchased the 5-year old last August, she was as sweet as you could imagine. You could pet her anywhere, face, head, neck and she'd love it.
She and the other mare bonded immediately; no kicking, biting, etc. I'm sure they did it somewhere along the line, because the older mare is definitely the alpha.
Since about November, the younger one started to become more aggressive when I approached her during her feeding... (I used to be able to pet her while she was eating her hay and she didn't mind at all), as did my other mare. Suddenly, she started putting her ears back and tried to bite me. I quit doing that.
Then, one day, I was out near the barn and she mosey up to me, and bent her neck down to get a piece of hay on the ground and I reached out to pet her and she bit me HARD on the leg!! I hit her in the shoulder twice; I was so startled and in such shock.
Since then, she has attempted to bite me a few more times; always when I try to pet her face or neck. She almost made it one time, but I slapped her face (I know; a huge no-no; ;again it was a reactive thing).
My question is two-fold: one, what is the correct thing to do if she does that, and how can I break her of it?? She follows me around the yard when I'm out, and acts like she is seeking attention....I can actually "pet" her with my carrot stick, and she doesn't mind that at all.
Also, my older mare seems almost possessive of my husband and I. When we, or one, of us is out there, the older one chases the younger one away. Are horses territorial with their humans??Being new to horses, it is a little surprising.
One more thing; this behavior (of the younger one) seemed to start when my husband began giving them carrots everytime he went out there. I told him not to do it, but he did anyway, which didn't create a problem with the older horse, but seems to have in the younger one.
Help????
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008 - 8:01 pm:
Sounds like major dominance behavior. These the same mares from prior threads? If so, the earlier training advice would apply to this situation as well.
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Member:
unity
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008 - 11:46 pm:
Yes, they are the same two mares. My guess was that it was a dominance thing as well. But why suddenly start to display it after she'd been here two/three months? Because she finally felt comfortable? although she seemed to adjust just fine right off.
And when she displays her teeth to me, or acts like she is going to bite me, is there an immediate correction I can take and what would that be? Smacking her doesn't seem right. And she isn't always like this either; nor does she try to attack me or charge after me. She actually follows me around the paddock, curious about everything I'm doing. I do not sense real meanness in her. I would like to be able to train her out of this negative behaviour on my own, as there are no horse clinicians within a couple of hundred of miles where I live. So pretty much what I'm learning is through Clinton Anderson's books and tapes, along with a couple of others on RFDTV.
My other question was, is my older horse acting possessive of my husband or myself when she won't let the younger one near us? Or, what kind of behavior is that? We can keep her away from us when we are brushing the younger one by showing her the carrot stick. She stops dead in her tracks. But you can see she'd love to get the other one to leave so she can be in her spot.
I just was curious about that kind of behavior. Does it happen with anyone else on this board? How do you handle it?
With warmer weather finally starting to arrive, I hope to be out there more often working with them. It's been a long and bitterly cold winter here, and I haven't been able to work with them since October. }
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 7:17 am:
Mary,
I think everything that you are describing is very typical mare behavior, although not all mares act that way of course. I have a 19 year old mare, I've had since she was 2. And a 6 year old mare, that we bought as a yearling. The younger mare, she was a little skeleton when we rescued her, and seemed really sweet. As she got in better condition and got older, the "marish" behavior started. Even now, she is being very pushy with me, and will run me right over when going to her stall. I am making her stop, and stand, with a twine over her nose for some bite, and then I allow her a step, then stop, etc. It takes awhile to get to her stall, but it focus her attention on me. As soon as the snow goes down in the round pen, we'll be back out there and do more ground work.
Since she's starting running to and from her stall, (this is just going through one stall, and crossing a 12' aisle) the older mare has started to do it also. She won't run me over, at least she's never shown any indication of wanting to, but the are both trying to be boss for sure. And yes, they are both worse around me. And they both want the attention of one of the geldings, and hate the other gelding!
Interestingly, the older mare wasn't like that until I started her on a Selenium and E supplement a few months ago. She was rather "blah" and apparently the S & E was something she lacked, and she has perked up from it. And gotten very "marish" also.
I think horses do change at times, and right now it just might be hormones are stronger with spring being here. (Ya right, don't look like spring outside at all!...HEY, I just checked your profile, you are from MN....so I am I, but I live in Upper MI now. I know you don't have spring yet either, I remember those winters all too well)
As for their behavior when you are working with one can you remove the other one? With the way they are acting, I wouldn't want to groom one with the other loose near by. Even if they are tied side by side, I'd be careful as they can and will kick and strike at each other and you.
I think Clinton's methods will help with your mares; just keep an open mind and if remember his way isn't the only way, but many of his ground techniques are wonderful for pushy animals. You may find though, that working one on one with each mare, that she may be a perfect angel and focus on you, only to act up again when the other one is nearby!
I've taken to carrying a buggy whip with me when putting hay out, and have had to smack the younger mare with it a few times. Just having the whip keeps the other mare away...I see I have some work to do there. I always rub all the horses all over with the whip after the hay is spread out to assure them it's o.k. for the whip to be there. Always be careful not to solve one problem and create another.
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Member:
elzedor
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 9:23 am:
Hi,
I have a 2 year old stallion that just came in for boarding and he's a real "pacman". He keeps trying to bite everything and everyone that comes into reach. I've been trying a lot of things with him like giving him extra attention to the head, and that seemed to work a little bit, to show him we can be loving, but not quite enough. Then I tried to work with the stick (like Clinton Anderson) and guess what, I improved his manners by 90%. Don't think I'm rough with the stick cause I'm not, I use it as an extension of my arm. I gained respect from the horse, just with one session. Lets say that the horse hit the stick by himself when he came into my bubble (like Clinton Anderson says: the horse thinks "Oh my god I just hit myself with that stick, I've got to be more careful". I'm careful not to look at the horse when I do that then I rub the horse with the stick and with my hand. I also brought the feed with the stick in hand and was surprised of the respect I got. I actually got the backing off, and the lowering of the head, then I put the feed down petted my horse and then he had the permission to eat.
All these techniques are good, but you need to add one thing to all the training and that is your attitude. You have to become the leader of the heard, you need to be the dominant horse. You are the one who gets the feed first, I keep them away for a couple of seconds from the feed and I actually stand over it. The dominant horse eats first and then the other ones get to come.
I think that you need to become the leader for the two mares, causes I don't think that they're fitting for your attention, but fitting for their position in the heard. If you show them you are first then they'll take their place and stop acting up. I think it's John Lyons that said if needed make them think they will die for 3 minutes and then leave them alone.
Show them you are the boss first and then love them, they will become better horses.
Finally, I'm glad someone in the US has some snow cause here in eastern Quebec, I think will have snow till May. Good luck with you mares
Lyne
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Member:
unity
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 10:25 am:
Where I live, it is winter from end of October until May......even then, it's been known to snow in June!!! So, as I am not fortunate enough to have an indoor arena, horse-training season is pretty short! But, I am determined!
Neither mare bothers me when I put hay out for them; they both stay their distance until I put the hay in their feeder, and then the dominant mare (Rosie) comes over, starts to eat, and after a couple of minutes, the younger mare, Seven (I didn't name her, but it's another long story!!), starts to eat. I can pet Rosie while she's eating, no problem, but with Seven, watch out!! So I don't. But I do stand there and just watch them for a few minutes.
Anyway, it's Seven that tries to bite when I stroke her neck or face; ears go way back, and she snakes her head and tries to bite. She wasn't this way AT ALL when I first got her. But, maybe because of it being winter, and not spending hardly any time with them (it was TOO COLD, sub-zero with wind almost all the time!!), maybe that's where the problem started??
But, she does seem to like to be petted with the carrot stick, oddly enough. That's ok; it's when I use my hand that she gets "snakey". Despite all of this, I don't feel that she is a "mean" horse..I sense she really is a good horse, just not trained. (Though when I bought her, she was sold as "kid, husband safe", and she certainly seemed to be.
Sorry to make such a long letter, but I have been so worried about it. Thanks for the help; I will definitely put the advice to work and see if that doesn't make a difference. From what I've read, it did seem like mare-ish behavior, but I really wasn't sure.
Thanks again!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 2:47 pm:
Hi Mary,
When the younger mare snakes her head, pins back her ears and threatens to bite, have you tried making yourself LOOK BIG, i.e. squaring up to her, drawing yourself to your full height, perhaps raising your arms above your head and just standing there glaring furiously at her? You have to really mean it of course.
I've found doing this can make certain kinds of hostile horse turn in a nanosecond into a "let's be friends", ears pricked, soft-eyed pushover. (With a really hard-core aggressor this might not work however.)
Good luck with your horses.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 4:51 pm:
Lynn, it was John Lyons, but it wasn't three MINUTES--it's three SECONDS! Big difference when you're going after a horse aggressively enough to make them think they're going to die!
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New Member:
shadow08
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 7:23 pm:
I used the 3 second rule on my daughter's horse last week who tried to bite me and it was amazing.(he got my sleeve and a little pinch) He didn't want much to do with me afterwards. Then later, he was friendly but cautious. He hasn't tried to bite me again.
Only one problem....he was stalled and I was afraid for 3 seconds that he might kick me, but I kept out of his way (while I took the handle of the scooper and smack him again and again on his rump) and tried to be as mean and scary as I could muster up.
This was hard for me to do because I'm not a mean, violent, person, but I had just read what John Lyons had said and I'm tired of her horse trying to bite.
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Member:
elzedor
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 8:52 pm:
Thank you Julie for putting me back on track, when you think of it, it does seem like an awful long time... When I applied the John Lyons technique, I don't recall counting time and it was probably closer to 3 seconds than 3 minutes, but thanks for telling me. I will make sure to let him think he is going to die for only 3 seconds.
Lyne
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 3, 2008 - 6:19 am:
Hello Everyone,
We have our own take on correcting nipping that does not require a stop watch and you can read it at, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses.
DrO
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Member:
alden
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 11:21 am:
Timing is everything when it comes to equine/human interaction and training. But timing is useless if there isn't consistency  . Really there is no timing without consistency.
Meanness or nor violence are traits a person needs to be able to walk through a herd as the one, the only, the most dominant. Timing, pressure (maybe physical in the beginning), and consistency are required.
Sometimes I think consistency should get more emphasis, but in the end timing wins every time. It's the most difficult and important concept in training, hence the most difficult to learn.
Good day,
Alden
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New Member:
jakobe
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 12:02 am:
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone could help me save a young 4 month old foal from being bitten by a 14 year old mare and a 5 year old mare. I've had the older horses for a few months and they got along great together, the 5 year old would nip at the older one now and then but not bite hard. Then we bought a 4 month old weanling and they are biting her alot. We decided to take the 5 year old out of the pen and put her in the pasture next to it so the weanling only has to worry about 1 for now. She's not terrified by any means for she's not hiding and still stays close to the 14 year old, the older horse mostly bites around the food, water, and salt. We are watching them while they eat and the second she goes to bite I snap my fingers and yell no, she gets startled and backs up, then comes back to feed, but there is going to be times I cant be there.I tried seperating the hay into 3 piles but the other 2 horses eat faster than the weanling and then go after her feed. The 14 year old eats excessively and that's all she wants to do. Will this end? What should I do? I could seperate the weanling from the 2 horses but I don't want her all alone at night. Any advice would be helpful. Thank-you
Debbie.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 12:38 am:
Hi Debbie,
IMO 4 mos. is pretty young to be weaned, although I know a lot of people do it at that age. I would only wean that young if there was a health problem with either the mare or foal that necessitated it. From your post, I assume you didn't raise the foal?
4 mos. is VERY young for the foal to be out with horses other than it's dam, or without the protection of it's dam. I would strongly suggest keeping the foal separate from the other older horses. If possible, keep her where they can see each other, and maybe even touch over/through the fence. I'd keep her seperated until she is quite a bit older, depending on her size and her aggressiveness.
If this isn't possible, I'd build a creep feeder that she can get into but the other mares can't, so she can get her share of food and can get out of the way of the other mares. This should be sturdy so the other mares can't knock it down and get to the foal's food. It should also be safe for the foal so it can't get it's head or foot caught anywhere.
Also, you didn't mention what you are feeding the foal, but from your post it sounds like your're just feeding her like the other older horses. If this is the case, you really need to be feeding her quite a bit differently. There are good pelleted feeds with the right protien, calcium etc. ratios for foals. Being young and growing a foal's nutritional needs are much different that those of a mature horse. I'm sure there are guidelines on HA for feeding your youngster; if you can't find them, post and ask and someone will direct you to the right article. Good luck with her!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 12:49 am:
I agree with Sara, a weanling can't be treated and fed like older horses. She gives some good advice. You'll need to do some reading and learning to do right by this foal. First, separate the foal before it gets hurt. I have more than once bought a companion foal because I don't like to have them alone, but I've also boarded a companion weanling.
This really needs to be in a separate discussion instead of at the end of this one--it's over a year old. Dr. O will redirect you. In the meantime, do some reading about foal nutrition and care--it's a very different ball game.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 8:21 am:
Hello Debbie,
We should note that some amount of pushing around by the herd is normal foal socialization. Without learning this early, horses may grow up with behaviors which predispose to physical harm when they grow up. However I agree with the opinions above that 4 months is too young to be placed in with two random adult horses. There are some great "baby sitters" out there that would treat this foal gently but your post suggests these two are not it. If it seems safe while you are closely monitoring the situation by all means let the foal socialize, but this does not sound like a situation where the foal should be left in there around the clock, especially at meal time.
DrO
PS: Debbie, let me help you get started off right as there are several advantages to you if your discussions are kept separate from others: - there is no confusion about which question is being discussed
- it will help keep Horseadvice more organized
- you review the Article and "ALL" the existing discussions
- more folks are likely to see your post and so you will receive quicker and more responses
You will find the "Start New Discussion" button at the bottom of the "List of Discussions ". For more on this and other important information see Help & Information on Using This Site » Welcome to The Horseman's Advisor.
Thanks for helping us stay organized.
PPS: many members prefer not to display there full name in their posts. You can edit this in your profile to display your chosen moniker.
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Member:
alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 8:56 am:
Debbie,
Depending on the size of the paddocks I'd try moving the 4 yro and see if the older mare is a good babysitter. If she's not try the other combination. And I thought the definition of a horse was "eating excessively"
When you break up the hay piles make at least one more pile than you have horses, at least until the horses have their pecking order established.
But I agree with everyone else 4 mo is very young, she just didn't have her dam to teacher her about the herd.
I also agree with a creep feeder or feed her when you have her out to work on halter training.
Congrats on you first post and welcome ;)
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 3:36 pm:
Welcome to the board Debbie. I agree with the above that it sounds like this weanling needs to be in her own separate area or have a creep feed box for her feed.
What I have done in the past with pastured horses is to make a small 'corral', 8x8 or 8x10 is big enough if you just have one baby, with fence boards placed at a height where the weanlings can get under them to get in to feed but the bigger horses are kept out. You will of course need to check periodically to make sure your weanie can still get under the boards since they grow so quickly! It's also still best to feed the two larger horses far enough away so they don't hover and keep her out anyway. And of course as Sara said it needs to be sturdy enough to keep the big girls out!
Good luck with the new baby!
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New Member:
jakobe
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 10:06 pm:
Thank you everyone for such a quick reply. I have removed her and put her by herself, I am quite upset that they would advertise for a foal for sale when she won't be 4 months old till Sept 25. I didn't even question how old she was until I got her home which was a 6 hour return trip, and e-mailed the owner to ask how old. We bought some foal starter to give her each day, and hay the rest. She also has a hernia that will be fixed on the 29th, we knew she had it but out of 12 foals, she was the friendliest and I just had to have her. I hope they will get along all together soon, thank you again for much needed knowledge.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 12:02 am:
Hi Debbie. It is astounding that they were willing to sell her so young. Sounds like she's got a good home now and that you're going to "treat her right." We all love pictures when you figure out how to post them. What breed is she? Or what mix?
There's a lot of knowledgeable people on this board who will be willing to help if you have questions/problems. Dr.O is no slouch, either.
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New Member:
jakobe
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 10:03 am:
Hi Sara. Knowing now how young she is, is very scary. She's a quarter horse. Her dad is registered and has won a few important races, and her mom is also registered but along the way they lost the papers and now have to sell her foals as non-registered. Thats what we were told but whether it's true or not is hard to say, we don't know these people at all, and we won't be seeing them again. Most of their horses were registered and had papers to prove it, but I liked the non-registered one. Plus, paying 1500.00 for registered or 300.00 for non-registered, help me in my decision. I will post some pictures and of her hernia as well when my daughter comes over to do it for me.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Friday, Sep 25, 2009 - 11:15 am:
Mary, I felt really concerned when I read your question about biting. There are many thoughtful comments here already. About 100 years ago, when I was still a child, I got my first horse. The first time that I tried to mount her, she turned and bit the h*#$ out of my leg! It HURTS doesn't it! I even went out that day and made a video of interacting with the horses at feeding time! If I can figure out how, I'll put it on the net.
Anyway, I think that in most cases, and quite possibly in yours, this kind of thing can be prevented or remedied through relationship management. I organize priorities this way.
First, get the attention.
Then establish respect.
Then it is safe to show affection.
The article that DrO suggests gives extensive information about how this is done. The order of priorities that I mention help me track what's going on between the horse and me.
If the horse isn't respectful, I move back to gaining full attention. If the horse isn't "nice," then I move back in the order to develop respectfulness. Respectful attention makes physical interactions safe. When I am around a horse, I want our relationship to be more important to him than hay, buddies, or any other thing in the vicinity.
I think that problems develop when the person does not notice small, seemingly unimportant signs of disrespect. Eventually a painful manifestation of disrespect like biting happens.
With a lot of horses things can be nipped in the bud before physical challenges like nipping happen.
I wish you the best in dealing with this. For me it's a metaphor for human relationships. If I do not think that I can say, "no, I do not want that," or "you won't get what you want from me this way," then others will treat us in whatever way works for them.
I hope this post isn't too loaded with typos.. no time to proof. Thanks for reading. Please, be safe. BTW, I love MN, used to live there, grew up there, but glad to not BE there going into the winter 
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