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  Discussion on Backs up that's her answer
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Member:
rusty

Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 1:22 pm:

I have a Mustang mare that I acquired this last winter she is approx. 7 yrs old. My Neighbor adopted her about 4 yrs ago & had a young trainer working with her. This trainers answer for most problems was to back her up. Unfortunately, the owners were inexperienced horse people & lost interest in this particular horse. Long story sorry, my niece had her for a year or so & worked with her some...so she is still green.
I want to say this horse was quite out of hand when she first came to my place, pushy into your space, & very disrespectful. I worked with her on developing trust & respect & she is a very different horse. I feel we have a unique bond. She is a great ride, with an ambling gait, out in front type of horse takes the lead & just walks on..her only water experience prior to me owning her was with her 1st owner & trainer...backing up & Nakota won. I trailered her with my other horse who is rock solid to the mountains. When we first encounter water she hesitated but walked in... after that it was down hill. She jumped the next ditch w/running water, when we went back across to do it again she just wanted to back. I circled/worked her, but she would get to backing & not going forward. Eventually, we ponied her across the next 2 water crossings. The last one I ended up walking her across, well she jumped (dangerous I know). On our way back we stopped at a crossing I was not asking her to cross just stand there, backing was her answer & she was shaking. When I got off she calmed right down & walked right in the water. I had my trainer work with us this last wk at another area w/lots of water crossing no jumping kind & she put up a fight at each crossing, backing, but eventually walked right through all of them....It really does not seem to be the water it's just what sets her off, she also did this with a rocky dry stream, darker wet ground, her answer is to back up. Any suggestions to keep the forward motion?
Member:
karind10

Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 2:13 pm:

My advice is to... back up.

Seriously, many times when a horse lacks confidence, trainers push them through it. That works often enough that a lot of people swear by it. And it does often work.

But then you get a horse or an issue where it won't work, and then what do you do?

So, I advise you to back up, in her training. Find one of these places where she lacks confidence, and take her *just* to the point where she gets a little worried, but not so scared she can't handle it.

Then do something she knows how to do well - soften to the bit, turns on the haunches, forehand, head down, hips over - whatever she feels confident in doing.

Continue doing that until she relaxes. Then go a step closer, again, just to the point where she gets nervous. And again, repeat some exercise that she knows well until she regains her brain and her confidence.

What you're doing is teaching her emotional maturity. Not to rush through things that frighten her, but just to find a way to be calm again.

You can also use the Parelli road, nose/ears/maybe the feet. That means you take her to the point she's comfortable, and wait. With VERY light pressure to move forward. Let her take a step, let her back up, let her go at her own pace.

Both methods work well, but I've found the Parelli method to take longer. JMO.

If you think the backing up is her issue, and it sounds like she may have been taught this as a coping mechanism, you may need to work on that also. I've seen this work well on a couple of mustangs and lots of TBs.

A good groundwork exercise is to have her on a lead and wait till you see the backing behavior, and follow her. Don't threaten her, or scare her further, just follow quietly. And don't try to soothe her either. I really mean *just* follow, quietly.

*Immediately* when she stops backing, or puts her head down, YOU stop. This can work wonders with fear-backing horses. Once they realize relief is in stopping, they'll turn to that more readily when they get afraid.

Good luck. It's so good of you to take her on!
Member:
rusty

Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 2:53 pm:

Thanks for your advice & backing may be the answer. I really feel this horse is special. It is difficult to explain, but she talks to me, so really I think she took me on. That is why I knew I could lead her through from the ground. Unfortunately..it's dangerous. I have only seen the backing behavior a few times, though the water issue was the only time she did not seem to get over it. My trainer also suggested backing if she starts & letting my other horse go to just out of sight forward across the water. This did work last week with the trainer & after that Nakota had no issues going back through, even leading the way through the water...key word for me is we were going back at that point, but she would go back & forth across the water either direction. I plan on taking them back to the mountains tomorrow, same place, so we shall see. Nakota has not done this in the ring, w/ground work, etc.. just a few times on the trail. I know with her it is giving her clear direction when her brain is working not reacting. Some times easier said than done.
New Member:
peg329

Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 3:16 pm:

My TWH gelding was EXACTLY the same way! A great trail horse except when we came to a ditch with water! He'd always JUMP like he'd been trained as a jumper all his life, when I'd NEVER been!! My RODEO TRAINER got a blue tarp in the round pen, and secured it with some round rocks, and we just rode in circles in both directions. After Trigger was okay with that, we filled it with water via a hose, and kept walking. Silly boy stopped and took a drink and kept on walking! Turned around and he did the SAME THING! Then Scott put sticks and rocks into the water, and he kept on going. All the time he asked me to talk him thru it. Tell him what a good boy or a brave boy he is! There's nothing to be scared of, that kind of thing, and to be SURE I was like a sack of potatoes, and not stiff and nervous, b/c they can tell if WE are nervous. We did that a couple days; and then the next time it rained in our pasture, we walked around in there. He's amazingly better out on the trails now! Brave as can be. If it's a NEW body of water, the reason they're nervous, is b/c they don't know how deep it is. Once they've done it, they're okay with it from then on! Just let them sniff and look at it, and be patient with them. Sometimes they need that extra time to know we're on their side!
Member:
rusty

Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 3:38 pm:

I laughed when I read your post. Since I had no idea how she would react to water I had tried the tarp. I'd put a tarp down & was going to have her walk over it with water. Unfortunately, I did not think about securing it. When she saw it she grabbed it & pulled it around the arena, could have care less about the water. She is the most curious horse I have been around & not spooky either. I had to take it away so she would not try & eat it!
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 4:21 pm:

Hello AK,

Lots of good advice here. I re-read your original post, and it sounds like this mare has been trained by her prior owners/trainer to back when she's anxious. So she has channeled her flight response backwards because she thinks that is the desired behavior. My advice would be to ignore the water issue for now, and work with her on leading-- make sure she knows the desired response to pressure is to step forward. As always, ignore mistakes and reward try.

When she leads well, lead her over all kinds of stuff. Her behavior is probably not about water but about anxiety. So you need to replace the backing with your chosen behavior, and make sure she is very solid on leading. Then ask her the question about water. If she is absolutely confirmed in leading, she WILL come forward when asked.

She sounds like a super cool and smart mare who is offering you what she has been taught to do when she's scared. So it's confusing under pressure to ask for a different behavior. Remove the scary water, and make sure she really leads, and then reintroduce the scary stuff when she has learned the new behavior and is confident that she understands your cues.

Post a picture! And let us know how you get on. Good luck.
Member:
rusty

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 11:48 am:

I tried the tarp again last night with water on top a board to cross over between the fence rail & cones. I lead her across without any problems, when I released her she walks across, stands & paws it, & even tried eating & will go back & forth. I put water on it several times & she had no reaction to any of it. She was curious & playful. She did not ever look sideways at it.
What would be the best way to stop the backing whether it be a water balk or just not wanting to go forward?? My concern is backing on a narrow trail... would not be good & what if it's not the water, but a behavior issue of backing when she does not want to do something. She has been a lets go kind of girl so far except, when I think back there was one time she decided to back riding out from home with friends & I thought it was buddy power since my other one was calling out to her. I had to get tough to get the forward motion. Last wk w/trainer tough did not work, it was like a tantrum. After backing & at that point trainer insisted on backing Nakota finally decided I don't want to be left, where's my buddy. Though on the trail when she is walking & she really walks out, she is just enjoying being out, you can feel her joy. So I am baffled as to why she backs when she really seems to enjoy going.
I've tried the picture thing before & have not been able to get it to work. Nakota is typical Spanish Mustang characteristics. She came from Alberta Can. from a slaughter yard. She is a beauty, light dun (buckskin), dorsal & tiger stripes, with black mane & tail w/frosting overlay, short back, low set tail, roman nose with wide set eyes & flat forehead, high withers and wonderful gait. She is very intelligent & a thinker.
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 12:16 pm:

I once had a horse that refused to go through a gate while mounted and backed up away from it every time. I rode him up to the gate, turned him around and backed through it. He had a funny look on his face, but never did it again. Later on a trail ride, a young girl who was with us had a buckskin mare that backed up at every mud puddle ... she turned her around and backed through it. You guessed it .... no more backing at next puddle.

Can't guarantee that it will work, but give it a try.

DT
Member:
shanson

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 12:36 pm:

If you know her pretty well and trust her not to explode, I have had luck with tapping the horse through this sort of obstacle with a crop to the hindquarters. I have to focus hard on staying calm and relaxed myself though, so the horse doesn't pick up negative energy. These critters offer excellent biofeedback! ...sharon
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 2:12 pm:

I was thinking along Dennis' line: Whenever she backs, make her back. I mean keep her backing and backing and backing (in a safe area, of course), until YOU say stop. When she goes forward, let her stop and rest. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.

Good luck,
Linda
New Member:
caballus

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 2:23 pm:

Try Clicker Training. Works wonders!
Member:
rusty

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 3:52 pm:

Thanks everyone for your advice. The backing was what the Trainer decided to do until she asked her to go forward along w/not seeing her buddy..that worked last week. The crop tapping was not successful, she did not blow up but the response was not positive, she backs & turns & ugly was not where we wanted to go, hence the trainer backing her where she wanted vs where Nakota was going.. anywhere but forward. She will start forward & we even tried letting her think about it for a while before asking for forward again, but backing would be her answer. She could have cared less about tapping at that point or even a good smack, she was going to back. I've heard of clicker training but am not familiar with it. I may try the backing again to see if it works. Sort of reverse psychology.
Unfortunately, our trip today had to be canceled so I worked her in the arena w/basics walk, trot, whoa, one step whoa, dismount, stand, trot, whoa, different variations, side pass etc...my thought process was to have her responding in a positive way, there was even a muddy spot from my tarp experiment last night. I know we will work through this together it will just take time and your suggestions are really appreciated. I'll read up on the clicker training. Thanks again.
Member:
dove2

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 4:05 pm:

I would suggest you try the old standard: Make the wrong thing hard, and the right thing easy. If you were in a suitable place, I would just keep backing her up until she doesn't want to back anymore and then a little bit more backup. You might have to back, make a 180 degree turn, and back some more. Of course, a horse never picks an optimal spot for something like that, so I would just flex her head in to her shoulder, and circle her. I would try to do this at a trot, really making her work, and then once you get two or three good circles, flex her head the other way and ask her to trot in that direction for two or three good circles. Try asking her to go forward, and if she responds by backing, back her again in a circle. If it's a backwards circle, I would keep her at the walk, and if you can flex her neck in and get her going forward in a circle, I would work her at a trot.

Direct her feet to a purpose. I find that sometimes just thinking about a solution such as this relays to the horse that they do not have the upper hand or say in where we're going. As soon as I started employing the philosophy of making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, my gelding started behaving a whole lot better. Because it's not mean nor vindictive, the horse does not sense a negative emotion from the rider. Of course, I would strongly suggest you teach your horse to flex his head softly, in both directions, first in the halter on the ground, then in a bridle on the ground, then seated in the saddle and standing still, and finally in the saddle and moving progressively through all gaits. I've always heard of this backing behavior as an evasion technique that many horses use. It's not uncommon. They gladly give it up if it means more work for them. Good luck!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 5:08 pm:

Hi AK, I had a backer too. I would go to cross the creek, that was in his pasture no less (he crossed it daily when turned out) When I was on board soon as I started down the path to cross the creek the backing would start. I tried to keep backing him, he could care less...soon as his feet hit that path, he would back....or do a whirlwind twirl if I blocked the back. Now I know this horse isn't scared of that creek or water at all, he swims in the creek! It was a form of resistance.

1st thing I did was start towards the creek and soon as I felt the hesitation coming we would stop. Maybe for a couple seconds, maybe half an hour...staring at the creek (takes patience). When I felt the resistance subside I would ask for a step forward, one step stop and stare at the creek some more. I made him stop, wasn't his idea. repeat. get to the bank of the creek and didn't cross it, went and worked in the arena....right next to the creek actually it's just a flat piece of ground. Back to the creek path, before resistance, stop and stare at he creek again. Repeat steps above. It worked in 2 days.

He was glad to get across the creek and rest instead of going to the "arena" and work. He pulled the stunt one time after that, soon as I felt the backing coming (and you can) I kicked him in the ribs and he got the crop to his butt at the same time and off we went. Never has happened again.
Member:
rusty

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 5:49 pm:

Thanks for the suggestion. One reason we practiced the step whoa today was to have a good response from her with the step whoa as all the advice gets you thinking what could possibly work & I had thought it may help. Last wk when we had our first episode we were in an area that I was able to put her to work in a circle & we went for a several rounds in each direction at a trot but once we stopped she would back & not where you wanted her to. I may have been too close for her comfort to just stand & should have kept her moving for a longer period of time. I have been trying to figure out the best way to approach her thinking side of her brain. I have also been reading up on the clicker method as mentioned earlier...sounds interesting & worth a try & sounds fun. My other guy is a treat maniac so that is concerning to a point..mouthy is not good either.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 6:20 pm:

Do you have a safe place for training? Like an arena or round pen that she knows is for training? I say that because sometimes what a horse does there, vs on the trail, is different.

What I'd do is see how little it takes for her to walk forward first. Can you just "lift" your energy up and think forward and have her walk off? (Dennis Reis showss this on RFDtv) If not see how little leg it takes for her to move out. Then relax and let her walk on, don't be real fussy with direction at this point. Just freedom with the walk.

Then, see if she will stop with you just stopping your motion. If not, use the reins as light as possible. Next, just sit quietly. Then what you want to work on is walk a few steps, sit quietly and halt, walk, halt. Keep your body as calm as can be. She should stay very relaxed and be wondering what is happening..no pressure! I wouldn't trot at all at this time.

Then I'd introduce something that she may balk at and begin her backing up avoidance trick. I'd just sit in "neutral" and let her back like I had all day and didn't care where she backed to. Then repeat the asking forward with as little as it takes. Keep thinking forward until she goes over the water or whatever, and if she stops, don't make a big deal out of it. Move on make a big circle, repeat some stops and starts again, and aim for your destination.

Make sure you sit relaxed and are not doing anything to make her think she should be going backwards.

This worked with my 19 year old Arab mare. Took years to figure it out with her. Don't know if she is really smart, but she is very sensitive to everything. The sight of water terrified her. If is was marshy, she went in, so I think it is the reflections and movement of the water that scared her. Being very sensitive, fighting with her, backing her, etc, didn't do any thing to help. Used to get wet with sweat, and her feet were still dry! Once I learned to act as if it didn't matter if she went or not, she quit fighting me about going in the water. She still snorts and acts like it's a big monster, but that's her.

I'd wait a few weeks of daily work and then try to slowly introduce asking for the back. Only a step, then whoa, count 1, 2, and immediately forward again! Maybe 10 steps forward, whoa, "think back" and one step back, then forward again.

Baby steps & calmness. If she is smart like you say, I'd be afraid of ruining the relationship you have with her if you resort to lots of circling or smacking her with a crop.
Member:
rusty

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 6:54 pm:

We have a small arena we work & play in, but there is little if any thing she has balked at here. The only time she has shown this behavior here is when you ride out of the arena & then want to go back in...she wants to go, go anywhere. She is very light on the touch and surprisingly she can out walk my MFT, my neighbors TWH & Spotted saddle horse with a rolling walking gait. It is almost if you think it she does it, stopping she has not been quite as responsive but if you take a deep breath & prepare for the stop she stops. Now this is in the arena on trail she has been very responsive & stops except when backing. You can take all pressure away & she will back. I think though there is a key word in your advice CALM because when she is doing the backing & you are not sure when or where she's going to stop it can be unnerving to a degree. As someone said earlier not always in a area that is safe. Thanks everyone for all the insights. This is great.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 7:19 pm:

A trainer put it quite simply once to me, teach him leg means forward and that will end it. Very true, along with staying calm.
Member:
leilani

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 11:42 pm:

AK, My younger mare used the back-up also as a means to avoid what I was asking. She preferred hills with me on the downside. I would keep my wits about me (don't know how) and ride it out and ask again for forward movement. With patience and time this too passed.

Best of luck. Leilani
Member:
rusty

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008 - 11:26 am:

Leilani ride it out? Did you ask for anything when she was backing? stay calm let her back?
Member:
leilani

Posted on Thursday, May 1, 2008 - 9:28 pm:

Hi AK,

I asked her back with more energy. It was a challenge because I couldn't see when we were going without turning and I was worried that would throw our balance off. I think we backed down far enough until it leveled out and then I asked her for forward movement.

There were times on the trail when she would refuse to go forward, but backing in her mind wasn't an option. So, she would spin like a reining horse, kinda fun, but... She is now 7 and doesn't challenge me as much. Patience, patience, patience. Leilani
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Friday, May 2, 2008 - 1:26 pm:

Dennis, I tried the backing through the water thing when my arab mare wouldn't go forward. It worked. The next time we came to a water crossing, she balked and I turned her around and asked her to back. She looked around back at the water and it seemed like she said 'you fooled me once, not again' and refused to go backward. Resorted to letting the rest of the group get out of sight and eventually she went through the water on her own, though a bit fast. Then had to work on going slowly. Eventually she got the idea and would go through water and would even stop and stand in the water, though shaking - she learned to trust me.
Member:
rusty

Posted on Saturday, May 3, 2008 - 8:48 pm:

Success!!! We rode in the mountains today & Nakota did wonderful. First water we came to she walked on in not a hedge in her step, next crossing same. On the third crossing which is a gully, she did hesitate & turned around, & backed a little but was willing to go forward some. No pressure. I decided to try letting my other horse go on through & up aways on the trail. I did not try & put pressure on her if she backed I let her or encouraged her to continue some & Nakota decided to walk on & test the water she jumped over...I was happy for the go forward not backing, but we did go back across with another less intense jump and than came back through. She was better each time but still jumped. I decide enough for the day she went through & only did the back up routine minimally. The next crossing, which was darker running water in the shade a bit she walked right through like water was her thing. I am very pleased. We had a great ride, she was calm, relaxed & did not jig on the way back at all. Thanks to all of you, I thought a lot about how to approach this & used the tips you gave to come up with what I thought would work with this particular horse.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 4, 2008 - 7:57 am:

AK good news, Glad you figured out what would work for your mare. They are all so individual, usually the owner knows best by judging their personality.

May you have many more happy trails and water crossings
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