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Discussion on Horse behaves...Except for his Owner
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 8:11 am:
Hi Everybody. I could use some help.
A few times, I have posted about the lady at my barn who has "untrained" her horse by spoiling him rotten.
Well, several weeks ago, she finally admitted her complete frustration with him and that if things didn't turn around, she would think about selling him (which freaks me out because this is just the kind of horse, through no fault of his own, who ends up completely unwanted). So, the BO and I put our heads together and have set up some rules and training sessions to help the owner get a handle on her horse.
I set up a makeshift round pen and did a bit of round penning with him. After his initial confusion, he did well, but due to weather and the fact that he is very out of shape, I have not been able to go through the entire process - won't risk him getting hurt. I've done some lunge line work with him, and for me, after the initial tussle of who was making the decisions, he does quite well.
So, here's the problem: He's now working quite well for me and the BO, but is still fully taking complete advantage of his owner. We do not work him unless the owner is there and we've fully explained what we are doing, why, what to look for, etc.
For example, she was working him on the lunge last night. He refuses to stand still, backs up as soon as she asks him to move forward and will keep backing until he's stuck in a corner and there's no where to go. As soon as the BO or I step in, he moves off immedietely and is W, T, C on command. Hand him back to the owner and he's naughty again.
I understand that it might take time for him to recognize that his owner now means business and that he can no longer take advantage (can't immedietely undo 2 years of bad handling), but how do we "transfer" his willingness to work for us, to the owner?
I'm NOT a trainer, do not have experience with unbroke or green broke horses and am doing this for the sake of this horse. The bonus for me is that I'm learning about something horsey that I have not yet experienced and we may save this horse from a bad end. I simply can't figure out how to transfer his willingness to work with others to a willingness to behave for his owner.
Ideas??
Thanks,
Fran
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 8:34 am:
Fran I know exactly what you are talking about. I have a neighbor with the same problem. Her horse works great for me, but soon as she takes over he reverts.
I do know "respect" is NOT transferable. She did make some progress with him after I worked with him for a mo. Then I handed him over to her with me always at her shoulder helping and the horse knew I was present. The sad thing this horse is very well trained, he knew I was not fooled by his antics and once he knew I was alpha he was great.
My neighbor did make progress with him, I had her do the Parelli games, after I taught them to him & her.
It gave her confidence and a "structured" workout. She too was going to sell this horse. She now gets along with him pretty well as long as she stays "structured". She was always hand feeding this horse treats to make him behave, which was having the total opposite affect.....rewarding bad behavior. I insisted she quit that and explained how she was rewarding his bad behavior, once that sunk in we were on our way.
Be sure to explain why you are doing what you're doing so she knows the "cause and effect" I have found that to be a big help. If you don't know why you are doing something for the end result it is hard to understand...I think. Seems once that sinks in things start going better.
Good Luck
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 9:44 am:
LOL, Diane. Hand feeding treats is now forbidden to this horse and owner. It's one of the "rules" we made in agreement to help, as this owner did the exact same thing as your neighbor did...thus the spoiled horse.
One thing I forgot to mention is the owner attempted to do Parelli games. Since I never really paid attention to it, I am completely unfamiliar with them on all but the most basic level. Obviously, the games aren't working for this particular owner. Two years ago, I let her borrow a John Lyons training manual I spent a small fortune on and rarely used...I have asked her to bring it back so I can refresh my memory.
I understand that respect is non-transferable, per se, but I'm wondering how I can help "blur" the lines between myself and the owner...if that makes any sense. For example, would it help for me to lunge the horse, with the owner standing right in front of me, giving the voice cues, while I reinforce with body position and whip, if needed? I'm not even sure that is safe.
Thanks for the input, Diane.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 10:56 am:
You have a good start here I think. The source of the issue is the owner, It's the owner that needs the training, not so much the horse. 
First lesson I would teach her is 'every moment you are with your horse you ARE training'. Everything we do, what we allow, or not, is training.
And yes I would make her work her horse under direction ONLY, and she should always have someone there to guide her with all her interactions with him for a while. Until she learns how to handle, or better handle rather, him.
You working with him to be sure he 'can' if fine, but SHE has to learn to do it. So teach her by having her do everything while you guide. She needs to learn varying levels of 'ask' (force, pressure, whatever) the difference being that you do literally ask and then WAIT for the horse's response. She needs to learn what to do, how to do, how much to do and TIMING.
Two things that always make a difference in how a horse responds, trust and respect. We don't necessarily have to be "alpha", but we do have to ask the horse, and yes I said ASK the horse to respect us and to trust us. The only way we earn trust when working with them is to be absolutely FAIR in what and how we ask, every time of everything asked.
And that's a key many people forget especially with a spoiled horse. We first ask it, then we act from their response. Say let's go for a nice walk, you grab the lead - loosely - and start to walk. What does the horse do? Go from there. If the horse starts to crowd you, then you ASK it to get out of your space. You use the same level of 'ask' as they do of crowding. *wink* You know how to take it from this point.
Everything she does with this horse must be firm, assertive as needed ONLY, no more, no less. She has to be super consistent, and begin to have good timing. She will learn to read him as she learns to handle him better.
one step at a time. Games? you don't need games, just do normal things and teach her how to handle him in them. Grooming, standing, walking, etc.
I too am guilty of occasionally allowing my horse to do things or get away with things. My idea of what I allow is different than many others. But I am overall consistent, and my horses's not only respect me they completely trust me. Course I do use a different way of working with them to build in and cement their trust. Still normal handling "technique" is always required.
Oh one more thing. And this is a super important part. She needs to change her mental views of him. She is frustrated because he "doesn't listen" or doesn't mind her. I'll bet dimes to dollars she always has that in her head now that he isn't gonna listen. That has to change first. So part of your job as teacher is to help her get some positive actions from him to help her learn that yes he WILL listen. If she can change what's in her head when she is with him, he'll change faster. They do tend to do what we think all too often. Our expectations hold a huge weight in what they do.
Focus, intention, consistency, fairness, and timing.
And good luck!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 11:49 am:
The reason I like the "games" for this type of situation is it gives the owner some kind of direction. Unfortunately they do require a person with good timing to teach them to a horse. That's why I taught them to him...then walked her through them with me always present and explaining why the horse had the response it did. The games are based on pressure and release and help develop timing for a person that doesn't understand.
It takes years to develop that timing and perfect it, and I have found the Parelli games have taught many people that "lightness". I am not a Parelli "student" I just think his games help "beginners" develop their timing in a way they can understand and a "spring board" into better things.
That being said  . Your presence is very important until the horse starts responding to her. I would try to at least make sure the horse listens to you well, before even handing over the "reins" to her, that way you know how he responds to different stimuli, and can walk her through it. My neighbor still calls me to give her "the owner" a refresher course when the horse starts ignoring her. She reverts back to the hand feeding and letting him get away with everything.
The sad thing is they went and bought a yearling and have turner her into a spoiled idiot. She was very well mannered when they got her, now they can barely get a halter on her. They want me to help them with her now, but I said no, they completely ignore everything and hand feed her for bribery. Of course she bites now and it is the horses fault... I washed my hands of it too frustrating. Unfortunately they now want to sell her because she is so obnoxious. Sad situation, she is a well bred, beautiful horse. I hope you can help this horse and owner!
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Member:
kathleen
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 12:34 pm:
Fran, if you have a horse that will do what you ask (not her horse), then you might have her try to work with this other horse so she can 'feel' and 'see' how it should when the horse is really responding to her commands. If she does it wrong or her command is not clear, then the horse will respond in kind. And if it is a horse other than her own, maybe she won't have preconceived ideas about what she thinks the horse is going to do wrong. Just a suggestion. Good luck.
Kathleen
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 12:39 pm:
My first impression of the situation made it sound like she was doing things with her body language that was all wrong. Are you absolutely sure that she was correctly positioned when she asked that horse to move forward? When you start to lighten a horse up and get it to listen it can swing to an overreactive state, where it no longer feels the intention of the statement but just sees where the body positioning is and reacts/overreacts... frequently horses are labelled as spoiled or rotten when a lot of it is rooted in fear.. the horse doesnt understand the situation its in and it can cause a stress/fear response, which to some people can look like untrained but because the horse is a herd animal and not a pack animal the responses are frequently different than what one would casually expect...people who make sense to the horse are not so scary to it, but then put in someone who doesnt make sense and it all falls apart...
this horse may also have developed coping mechanisms or templated responses which come up when a certain scenario is given to the horse... these responses will have to be worked thru a little differently then normal "lack of training" responses..
good luck.. the hardest horses are the people!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 1:36 pm:
Thanks, ladies, for all the input. I'll try to respond to everyone's comments:
Terrie/Diane: I think you are right, the horse shouldn't be worked unless someone else is there to help. Unfortunately, he's not my horse and it's not my barn and as much as I'd like to suggest that, I'm not sure how well it would go over. Also, I have a limited amount of time I can spend on this without sacrificing too much of my own riding or family time. You make an excellent point about the owner's mental view and I will remind her that she needs to go into a working session with as much attitude as the horse: "He WILL move forward!" There's no doubt this owner hasn't figured out the timing thing, but that leads me to Kathleens suggestion...
Kathleen...Hmmmm...That might be a very good idea, having her work with a horse that hasn't been "undone"--it could really be a confidence builder. I think my mare might intimidate her, not because she's naughty but because she's big with large powerful strides. I think even from the ground, that might freak out the owner (I asked the owner to hold my horse once when I was working with hers and despite the fact that my horse took that opportunity to all but fall asleep, the lady was a bit nervous) But, the BO has a bunch of kind, older horses (QHs & Paints) that know their jobs very well and I know the BO would let us borrow one of them for some ground work.
Melissa: There's no doubt that the owner is not always properly positioned - she has trouble organizing herself and I have to remind her to watch what she's doing with the whip (she may have it high in the air as she's asking the horse for a downward transition) and her body. However, I know the horse is not acting out of fear, perhaps a bit of confusion, but not fear. He just knows he can get away with anything when she handles him and I swear, he enjoys it. I think the backing thing he does with her may be one of those templated responses. Indirectly, that might be my fault. Several months ago, when he was being a snot, I stepped in and made him back up, until he decided to stand quietly (we were in the barn aisle so the only option to make the wrong thing hard was to back him up)...the owner may be over using this and I did tell her last night that at all costs (except her or the horses safety), get him moving forward instead of back.
Anyway, I really appreciate the perspective and advice from everyone and look forward to any more info that anyone wants to share.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 2:54 pm:
Well we certainly can all relate to the time involved to try to 'help'. So just make suggestions to her. First I would highly recommend she get a trainer to work with her (full time) and quickly. Whatever discipline or method, just get someone to work with her regularly so she can learn.
And yes if she can begin with a horse that is 'trained' but still she has to learn to deal with her horse. One doesn't always "get" the timing etc when working with a horse that responds favorably. Me for instance, on the ground it's when I work with the issues myself to work them out, work through them that I learn. (Riding is different, getting the feel of the movement on a trained horse is invaluable because then you know what it should feel like.) But that's just me. It's always been easier for me to miss stuff when working on the ground with a horse that works well. Especially when just learning cause there's SO much, and so much can be missed, Nope I suggest for this she work with her own horse only until she learns a bit, after all that's where she needs to be.
Again just my thoughts. I would simply suggest she get help and quickly, a trained professional - a trainer. Remind her of her frame of mind before starting anything with her horse. But then let go, step back and try hard to not let it get to you. (good luck there) if you can't help her, then someone needs to, and you have to let go.
fwiw
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Member:
alden
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Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 11:38 pm:
I'd like to add a couple comments to this thread. I disagree that respect is non-transferable. A horse that is train to respect people will respect anyone that presents the correct body language. I can send anyone in with my stud and with the correct body language he will behave, not to say he won't try to bluff them , but he'll respond to the body language. (Not that I would, stallions are really good body language readers )
That said, I have met people and horses who are completely incompatible. Why? We could never figure it out, and they had help from expert horsemen.
Then there are some people that should never own a horse. It's unfortunate for the horse that these folk never come to realize that horse are just not their thing.
I have found it helpful to put some people in a round pen with a well trained horse. A couple people that just couldn't make the connection between their body and the horse's with a untrained horse had better luck with a trained horse.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, May 7, 2008 - 7:03 am:
Lots of great advice here. I think Alden makes a wonderful point that some people shouldn't have horses. These are the really timid people who just want to "love" the horse but never do more than feed and pet them. I've had 2 friends/neighbors like that. One finally moved to town and opened a daycare, the other still has 3 very overweight/over coddled horses she never rides.
And there are the folks who want the horse as some kind of symbol of who they are and want to control the horse, usually with force and fear.
Fran,
How do you see this person? Really into horses and wants to learn everything she can? Just a phase she's going through? Someone who wants to ride, but needs a horse she can just "sit on" and not do any of the work? Maybe analyzing her personality a little bit will give you some insight which method to use to help her help herself here.
You said she's not organized: Have her write up notes on a pocket sized notepad. I did that when I went through my "Clinton Anderson" phase. I'd look through the notepad right before heading the round pen. Obviously not pages of notes, but maybe 5-10 tips for that phase she's working on.
And I'd suggest very, very simple and subtle things. Ask her to just wiggle the rope to get the horse back up. See if the horse will stop when the rope is still, and the person's eyes look down. See if the horse will move his haunches over just by her looking at his hip and crouching. Maybe if she understands how little it takes to get a response, then the understanding of the role of body language will make more sense.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 7, 2008 - 7:38 am:
Unfortunately, a professional trainer is out of the question...both the BO and I have urged this lady to get this type of help, but that part of our advice has gone unheeded...thus us stepping in as much as we can.
Alden & Angie, thank you both for your insight. I do think having this lady work with another (easier)horse will really be a confidence booster. Hopefully she can take that new found confidence and skill & transfer it to her own horse. This lady really loves her horse and truly has a heart of gold. I do not believe it's a phase she's going through. I think she made the classic mistake of green rider, green horse and over the two years of owning him, she has made him even greener by undoing the training he had. Her goal is to trail ride, so I don't see why she cannot achieve this, with a little help.
Thank so much, everyone!
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Member:
alden
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Posted on Wednesday, May 7, 2008 - 8:41 am:
Two more comments
I think from what I've read to label this horse as naughty is a mistake, sounds to me like he's confused with his owner's actions.
Second, don't make the mistake of thinking he's just a trail horse. IMHO a good trail horse has broader training in many ways than sport horses. My trail horses may not slide stop or spin has hard as some but they don't jump over the arena wall at the sight of a grocery bag either; or a pheasant, deer, Elk, bobcat, Llama, etc, etc jumping out of the brush. They have to be as soft as any sport horse, stiffness isn't acceptable when working through trees and rocks, crossing stream and rivers, or encountering steep rough terrain. Too many people sell the trail horse short, but as I age I'm coming to appreciate a short trail horse
I agree there isn't any reason this lady can trail ride, but this may not be the right horse and time. A good, calm 15 yro may make the process more enjoyable for all.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Wednesday, May 7, 2008 - 3:15 pm:
Fran,
I think that it is a great idea for her to work with another horse, not only because it will respond better but because she is not attached to it. That way her emotions will not be as likely to get in the way. She needs not only to learn body language but also timing. Giving the release at the right moment is very important. If a horse can be haltered and somewhat led, I start with teaching ground manners on the lead line. Before I ever did any round pen work with my youngster, I taught her to walk at my side, halt when I do, back with me and yield her shoulder as I walk toward it. I also taught her to yield her hip and now I can ask her to step her hip over by looking at it. I recently got a thoroughbred mare for free and when we went to pick her up I noticed that she did not respect my space and I nearly got stepped on twice. They allowed her to carry her head high, so I knew that was the first thing I was going to change when I got her home. That was the 29th of February, we have her back under saddle and doing very well.
Cynthia
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, May 7, 2008 - 4:56 pm:
Hi Fran,
I was in this lady's shoes long ago. I did all that babying stuff and my horse turned into a jerk.
What helped me was LEARNING. I watched clinicians on RFD-TV like Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox, and Dennis Reis. I used this book called "Establishing Respect and Control" from front to end. https://www.amazon.com/Clinton-Andersons-Downunder-Horsemanship-Establishing/dp/1 570762848/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210193122&sr=8-1
That really helped a novice like me to learn respect techniques. I read everything I could read and hired a few trainers along the way. This webpage has helped a lot.
It takes time to absorb. A couple huge things I needed to change besides the treats, were EXPECTING my horse to do what I wanted and to make him work to get my praise and affection. I recently discovered myself riding him and letting him cut a corner or turn the wrong direction. It suddenly occurred to me I have to direct him ALL the time. His feet need to go where I say. So I am still learning and I've owned him five years now.
The last thing I changed was being consistent. I started working him four or five days a week and keeping a journal so I would know what we worked on the week before. It is important to practice each exercise over and over again.
If she truly wants to keep this horse and have him be the great horse she envisions, then she needs to learn how to be a horsewoman.
Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, May 9, 2008 - 8:24 am:
Alden, believe me, I would never undersell the value of a good trail horse. It's only been a few weeks since I watched a strange trail horse take my 6 yo daughter up a steep, narrow and rocky path in Arizona. My "mom" instincts got nervous (800 lb horse, 500 ft DrOp off the path, 40 lb kid...), my horse person instincts said "chill out!, he knows his job". And of course, this wonderful little horse proved his value by safely completing the ride with my daughter - she had a blast and still talks about it.
I can't undo the decision this lady made when she purchased the horse - she went against everyone's advice, no doubt about it. All I can do is try to help her and the horse the best I can, as it is in the best interest of all involved.
Cynthia and Linda, thank you for your comments. I'm sucking up all this, and everyone's info, processing it, mulling it around in my head and trying to apply everyone's knowledge to the situation at hand.
Again, many thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. I hope that in a few months, i can update everyone with great news that we were able to turn this guy into a solid horsey citizen.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, May 9, 2008 - 9:27 am:
Hi Fran,
Well, Linda's story gives me hope and is the exception, but her point proves the rule. The owner is the problem here. It's only compounded by a green horse. I have one of these at my barn. I love the woman dearly, but her horsemanship is pure fantasy, and she has zero interest in actually standing outside learning to deal with a real horse. For four years I got suckered into riding this horse, tuning up this horse, legging up this horse. Finally I stopped listening to the owner and started watching her-- she acts like a person with no interest in learning about horses.
So Linda's message is the important one-- that's how someone acts who really wants to learn. Suckering everyone else into solving the problem? That's a fantasy horseperson, and all your work won't teach her a thing unless/until she has a significant attitude change.
Just my $20 worth...
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, May 9, 2008 - 1:21 pm:
I know, I know, Elizabeth...I try to be a sucker only for a limited amount of time...
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 11:27 am:
Hi Fran,
Not intended as a criticism of you-- how would anyone learn if folks like you weren't willing to help? Just an observation that things would already be changing if this owner were interested in making a change. Her footprints say what her mouth does not-- solve this for me so I can go back to my horsey fantasyland!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 1:18 pm:
Oh, no, Elizabeth, I realize you weren't criticising...and I AM a bit of a sucker when it comes to the well being of an animal. I fully admit it. I also realise that you (and others) have made a very valid point that unless this owner wants to take what we have to offer and change her behaviors to reflect that...well...I could still be working with them for the next 10 years...and I would prefer not to have to do that.
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