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Discussion on Jane Savoie Happy Horse Home Study Course
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 5:23 pm:
As promised, here is my review of the Jane Savoie Happy Horse Home Study Course.
This course has something for everyone's learning style. It comes complete with an extensive book, DVD lessons and also CDs. In short, you get the same message delivered in writing, in video, and in lecture format. I like to read the lesson first (and take the little quiz at the end to reinforce the concepts), then watch the DVD, then listen to the CD while driving to the barn.
In all honesty, I can't say that I've really discovered something new but I can say that concepts I thought I understood are more clear to me and I have a much better appreciation for some basic principles upon which much else is built. I have a better strategy for riding and training that is logical and working wonders for me.
Yes, it is pricey at about $600, however this works out to less than $30 per lesson. It's really a screaming deal.
I will confess that I have Jane's Cross-Train Your Horse books and did not, at first, think I liked them. In retrospect, I was confident at the time that the problem I was having with the canter was "just" a canter problem and so I skipped ahead to that chapter. Surprisingly enough, the information there did not help me. Only when I accepted that maybe, possibly, there were some holes in my basic education and went back to the beginning to correct those, did things start to fall into place.
In short, I highly recommend this product.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 7:23 pm:
Hi, I am wondering how much this program covers the first few mountings and how in depth the teaching is concerning the first few months of riding.
Thank you.
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Member:
cspanhel
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 11:43 am:
I just purchased the course, and it is not focused on starting a horse under saddle, tho everything she teaches in the course is applicable to young horses as well as those well under saddle. But it doesn't focus on the totally green horse...for that I recommend Clinton Anderson's Colt Starting..or similar.
cynthia
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 11:17 am:
Thanks Cynthia,
I am looking for an english program to start my young one. Does it discuss how to establish contact? How to develop or teach a horse to go long and low?
Thanks for your help.
I have used John Lyons for my western horses for years. I really recommend him.
The problem I am having is after having very successfully taught my mare to give to pressure, she is very light and responsive, she views contact as punishment.
Now that I am learning dressage and hope to ride my up and coming horse dressage I don't want to make the same mistake.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 1:56 pm:
Lori,
If you can get your hands on this month's issue of Dressage Today there are several articles on working with young horses.
You may be able to retrain your mare to accept contact (different than pressure) by going back to a snaffle assuming that you are not currently riding in one. I suspect that if your mare views contact as "punishment" she's probably avoiding it altogether. Also, you may want to assess how you're using your hands.
Jane's program does have lessons on contact (she works off of the classic dressage training scale). You may also want to check out her web site; she's very generous with advice.
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New Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 5:26 pm:
Lori, I have done similar with my own horses and have the same issue with keeping pressure on the reins. I asked a friend about your question, and this is the answer: Whether or not to put slack back in the reins all depends on where the horse is in its training. Once the horse learns to give, if I am working on dressage moves, I don't move my hands one way or the other. Let the horse find that sweet spot and don't take up or give slack. It is up to the horse to hold it.
I think I'm the one who needs to get comfortable with riding on contact more than my horses.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 6:18 pm:
Hi Holly!!
I would modify your friend's statement about not moving your hands one way or the other. If the horse is walking or cantering, his head is going to be moving and you have to move your hands to maintain a steady contact, otherwise you're going to be banging him in the mouth. The horse's head is steady at the trot (presuming the horse is sound) so you don't need to move your hands if you're sitting the trot to maintain steady contact, but you do need to open and close your elbows if you're posting the trot to maintain a steady hand position.
I agree that riding with contact is a big change for those of us that started out in a Western saddle.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 10:52 pm:
I do still ride the mare in a snaffle, you are right she does try to avoid the contact but since she is very thick in her throatlatch she finds it difficult to maintain a btv position, I suspect this is why she is so stiff in her jaw as she is resisting it. (confusion)we have made progress this past fall but, I just really get a sense form her that she is not enjoying the new way of going. She is even acting a bit pouty in the corral. I have had her teeth done, she has had two chiro appointments, checked and changed saddles. Her feet are great, if I ride western she has a much different attitude.
I have been told by several that I have very good hands.
It has taken me about three years, slow learner, to learn/understand and then change my mindset to one of contact. I actually had the same problem with my legs which I didn't even realize until just this fall when I took a jump clinic and the clinician kept at me to 'keep my leg on'. After a few rounds of hearing the same thing, slow learner, I finally realized I was jumping or trying to with my legs not touching the horse.
Hey did my position ever improve once I kept my legs on!
A mental picture that really helped me with rein contact is the idea of holding hands.
Just normal holding, it doesn't hurt, you can easily walk, your arm swings in rhythm and its fine. If you squeeze one finger it is easy to feel, squeeze a different finger it is easy to tell the difference, no interruption in holding and rhythm.
Now imagine if every time you squeeze a finger you also let go of the hand, every time you want to squeeze a finger you have to take hold of the hand again. You get the picture.
But this is only training myself. I still have to learn how to teach this to a youngster.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 11:02 pm:
There are various exercises you can use to supple your horse. One that Jane Savoie uses to is to establish contact with both reins, hold the outside rein still and play with the inside rein by gently moving your inside hand as if you were turning a key in a lock. You want to rotate your wrist, but not bend it up or down. It's important to keep steady contact on the outside rein. This particular exercise supples the poll, but there are others for the jaw and neck.
It sounds like the Happy Horse program may be a good fit for you and this horse. In her videos, Jane has one demo rider on a Haflinger who is, shall we say, less than flexible in the poll, jaw and neck.
Other possibilities are that she doesn't like the bit you're using for some reason; too big, too small, too thick, too thin. She may not like the new way of going because it's hard for her. Not knowing how she's built makes it hard to comment on that, but be careful to not ask for too much too soon.
Good Luck
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 11:22 pm:
Holly, Thank you for asking your friend on my behalf. I think what I am hearing is if I consistently keep my hands in the correct position(following her movement) she will learn where holding her head is the most comfortable, which equals the right position.
I am a bit stuck in my understanding of the english give. I think a bit like a half halt? A releasing but not a complete release.
I know we are not talking about setting the horses head at vertical.
When I start riding her she will have her head in a 'natural' to somewhat higher position depending on how confident and relaxed she is.
As she gains confidence she will lower her head to 'natural'.
I think it would be fine to ride her in this position for several rides just letting her learn balance, go, stop, turning, etc.
I have read enough theory to know that I need to ride from back to front, that collection eventually comes from years of strengthening, the haunches taking more weight, lightening/lifting the front end, allowing the neck freedom, the poll relaxes and comes more vertical, this is a cycle, as each part a building block for the next part.
I do know and expect to take much time, years actually, to bring her along especially with my limited knowledge.
How do you start introducing, in western we would call it rounding, what response from her do I look for? How much is enough? What will she do if I am asking too much?
How do I get her to long and low?
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 11:35 pm:
Chris, we must have been posting and writing at nearly the same time.
I have considered that she has a thick tongue, so maybe she would prefer a thinner bit. Currently I am using a 16m kk sprenger.
I agree with you that she does find this more difficult.
She does have a thick throatlatch. I read an article that talked about how the salivary gland can get stuck in a thick throatlatch and actually be uncomfortable. It may have been in DT.
I think I will check out the HH program. I am sure I could fill in many holes with it.
thanks for your thoughts.
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Member:
imogen
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 - 1:47 am:
Lori,
Do you ever lunge your horse in side reins or use a chambon? I do not know what Jane's view is on these but a common training method here in Ireland is to start the horses going forward on minimal contact (hacking out, hunting, rides etc.) but to gradually introduce some contact when lunging, gently driving them forward into it, before the rider starts to use more contact. You must have the "forward" bit first and side reins provide a more consistent contact than most rider's hands.
On another tangent: why don't more horse dentists (or vets who do dentistry) give advice on bits seeing as they have the best view of each horse's jaw conformation? I have always wondered about this.
All the best and Hi to Holly!
Imogen
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 - 6:30 am:
Lori,
Somewheres I found an interesting article on bitting that really got into the shape of the horses jaws, the thickness of the tongue, thickness of the lips, etc. Try googling "fitting the bit" or something similar and see if you can find it. I'll check my files too, it may be something I printed out.
And some horses don't like the taste of some bits.
I am finding this all interesting, and above my riding level perhaps, but I do want to add that I have found my horses seem to stay very soft in a nice 3 part bit, and stiffen up when I go to a regular snaffle. Although I ride in a western saddle, I do more riding with 2 hands and with light contact. At least I hope it's light contact!
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 - 12:28 pm:
Interesting conversation. The english/western degree of contact thing has always troubled me. I've worked under both english and western trainers (dressage/eventing and reining) and at the end of the day I feel like at least at the beginning stages both disciplines start their horses riding light contact.
The difference happens at the later stages of riding when the western horse is asked to lighten contact further and perform self-carriage, basically the 'contact' is the feel of the weight of the reins. The english horse however is asked to maintain that steady contact with the riders' hands. Both disciplines ask the horse to transfer weight to the haunches, collect, etc. to allow for advanced movement.
Having had the privelage of riding wonderfully trained horses in both disciplines, I still can't say I prefer one over the other. Both can result in elastic, athletic, responsive mounts. Both can also be abused, just like anything in the horse business. I think I have seen as many steeply ported, long shanked severe bits in the western world as I have seen horses forced into contact with their mouths tied shut and noses cranked back to their chests in the english world.
And now for a relevant comment  I would not expect this mare to take up contact quickly, nor would I try to force the issue. As you mention she is clearly wondering why you have changed the rules all of the sudden. If you are still riding in a snaffle and still in the early stages of training I would expect this will come in time (think months to years). I would definitely NOT ask her to come behind the vertical but would instead focus on lots of 'long and low' work, asking her to reach down into the bit. If you transition her to contact with time and patience and lightness, the time you have put into teaching her to give to pressure will have been well spent.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 - 1:28 pm:
The advanced dressage horse is still in self-carriage-- if you look at the tests, you'll see requirements to DrOp the inside rein at canter etc. to show that the horse is neither leaning nor being held up.
I think of the difference as being a level of conversation. In dressage schooling, there's a constant 2-way conversation in the outside rein, and an intermittent 2-way discussion (more request/response) in the inside rein.
Hands don't move a whole lot on a finished dressage horse, but they can change position quite a bit in training, so be careful about "fixing" the hand and riding the horse into that. It can create a leaner or a dodger, depending on the horse.
Same with the leg-- it has to release as well as request, or the horse is under constant pressure. The releases may look small when the horse is finished (so should the pressure), but they're there.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 - 2:30 pm:
Good point, self carriage should be present on a well schooled dressage mount as well. I wish it were more emphasized through all levels of training as I see way too many leaners for my taste
I read an excellent article several years back discussing the phrase 'on the bit' and how it is a mistranslation of the phrase 'in the hand' (dans le main? i think is the original). The term 'on the bit' has, imho, been the ruination of many a horse's mouth.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 - 3:19 pm:
OOOO Im luving this conversation
Jane also has a bunch of utube videos super cool...from basic aid communication to more advanced stuff.
Leslie
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 - 9:40 pm:
Imogen,
I have lunged in side reins, once I put the side reins on I loose a bit of confidence. I get told, not too tight...ok, DrOopy loose, if her head is up a bit-just snug, in a l&l position slack out but no more??
Then again, once we are going around, do we go round until she relaxes and lowers her neck. Would that be the place to stop the first few times, then maybe she will start to accept a bit of contact?
My filly lunges in side reins just fine, she will go along with a fairly steady contact. One time I put the side reins on too loose, it was sooo funny. She was going along with her nose on the ground trying to get the bit.
I haven't seen a Chambon used so I will won't try that one.
Angie, I agree a thinner bit may help. I also like the 3 joint style. I have been debating wether to get a thinner 2 joint just to try or just go all out and get the nice thinner 3 joint.
Shannon I appreciate your view, you are right, the retraining could take longer than the original training. Part of my dilemma with this mare is I know she is not built to do dressage so asking her to makes me feel I am taking advantage of her good nature.
I hadn't really planned to use her in dressage but last year when my great mare died I put her back into service.
I can start my young one now but it will still be a couple of years before she is ready for serious work.
E. I really like your idea of the hand/rein being a conversation.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 10:12 am:
Lori,
It's ok to "do dressage" with your mare; you just need to be mindful of what she is physically capable of doing. Lynn Palm has said that "dressage is good for all horses, but not all horses are good for dressage".
My 310lb college football player nephew is taking a Pilates class. There's not a doubt in my mind that it will be good for him, but I don't think he's going to be starring in any Pilates videos in our lifetime.
Maybe your mare is already doing the best she can. Only you know that. Dressage will make her more athlethic, but she's only going to go as far as her conformation lets her.
BTW: I really like the 3 piece snaffle (French link) too.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 1:24 pm:
Hand position, my thoughts.
Use a fixed hand - not following - to produce STEADY contact for the horse to find it's own comfort. This allows the horse to actually cause it's own discomfort or comfort. It means that the rider will not be moving which allows the horse to learn to trust where the contact is. It does have a use.
It also has a caution. I would be careful using a very green or young horse, as if they fight it too much they may resort to rearing and flipping over backward to avoid the pressure. It's a possibility with any horse not used to it.
A more seasoned horse should begin to respond more favorably to a fixed hand position if they don't like contact. This may work for your mare. Don't begin with a really short rein, allow enough room for them to move and stretch forward a bit. Begin at walk, fix your hand so you have a light connection and leave them in that position. Maybe brace on the saddle, just be sure you can keep them in exactly that position no matter the horse pulling, etc. Wait... allow the horse time to figure it out, however long that takes.
Usually within a few minutes they stop fervently 'testing' and begin to quiet, and eventually sigh and relax into it. Because it's always in exactly the same place, they can trust where it is.
This is what my trainer suggests to do when initially teaching contact, especially with a more green rider, one that isn't capable of steady consistent contact. Fix the hands and let the horse figure it out, they will. Again the above caution comes into play, if the horse fights a fixed hand violently then don't push it.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 1:51 pm:
Heh-- let's rumble! FWIW, I disagree with Terrie's advice. A fixed hand leads (if the hand succeeds) to a fixed headset, which produces a pretty outline but inhibits the gaits and the freedom of the horse to balance, use her topline, and adjust.
Agreed, there needs to be contact available for a young/green horse to find, but the horse should never experience that contact as inhibiting the natural movement of the head/topline in response to figures, transitions, etc.. If a rider is too inexperienced to provide an appropriate contact, both the horse and the rider need to find some qualified help.
Even with quite a lot of contact, the arm and hand must be relaxed or the horse will be rigid and can't move freely. Also it's much too easy for a beginning dressage rider to balance unaware off the horse's mouth (and the horse off the rider's hand) with a fixed hand.
A thought on conformation. Many conformationally unsuitable horses do very well through the lower levels of dressage, and some go Grand Prix. They don't read the same books we do, and I think the mind of the horse is just as important as the body, especially through second level. Some things may be harder, but I wouldn't pre-judge that until the horse has a chance to learn and develop. It does seem like any sound horse can benefit from gymnastic training and tuning up on the aids, whatever sport you ultimately choose to pursue.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 2:25 pm:
I have to agree, on the giving hand and seat with any horse.. once a rider braces with either hand or seat, the horse will to.. It is a very hard concept to give but not give away.. One I struggle with daily.. One must allow the horse to move foreword into a forward feeling hand again not giving away the contact but allowing the horse to balance and re balance from the hand and seat..
The other problem with bracing ones hands is that the rider then does not have a independent seat but is balancing themselves on the rein contact..
It is not easy working with a young horse and a green rider.. thus the school masters are so expensive YET so very valuable..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 2:30 pm:
This is too funny .. proves the old adage that if you ask 10 different horse people the same question you will get 10 different answers. It never ceases to amaze me how we all use a different language yet manage to get the results we want .. a testament to the intelligence and forgiving nature of the equine, and the fact that there are no *exclusively right* answers!
In my experience, on a young, green horse a fixed hand (or fixed sidereins for that matter) will teach the horse to give to the pressure of the bit and will teach them to generally stay behind contact as we think of it in the english sense, UNLESS the length of the rein is so short that the horse is physically unable to balance/move comfortably without contacting the bit. In this case once they have become a bit dull to the contact they lean on it. There are exceptions to the rule, usually horses that are a little dull to begin with.
This is precisely why when I start horses under saddle I ride on a long, loose rein .. I want them to learn to balance themselves rather than looking to me for support. I also do use a surcingle and side reins to teach the horse to give to pressure and be light in my hand. With western horses I keep it at that and will remind them as we begin collection to stay off my hands, and with english I introduce a very light following hand contact as they progress in their training.
While putting a horse in short side reins (or using a fixed hand) can definitely create a false headset (as the horse comes up and folds in his neck to avoid contact rather than coming through from behind .. simply avoiding the pressure) I think there is some use to them when used at an appropriate length in teaching a horse to give to pressure. And in an upper level horse who has already learned to accept contact they can help him come back on his haunches, especially in ground work.
What will work best for you in your retraining will depend largely on your mare and where she is in her training, how much balance she has developed, and her own specific needs and sensitivity.
My guess would be that if you introduce fixed side reins or a fixed hand, she will do her absolute best to stay behind contact as she will think that's what you're asking. Whatever the case, resist the urge to pull her together, wait for the contact to come through from behind. Who cares what her frame looks like at this point
Please keep us updated as you progress with her!
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 2:40 pm:
Shannon,
When you use side reins, do they have an elastic insert or rubber donut? If so, they aren't truly fixed and emulate a giving hand with steady contact as described by myself, Ann and elk.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 2:56 pm:
Chris, I am specifically referring to fixed sidereins, not elastic or with the donut, which would give a result similar to a fixed hand. Though I have found the ones with the hard rubber donut to have minor enough give to give the same affect depending on the sensitivity of the horse. The gelding I am working with now is so light that he even stays off the extra pressure generated by the extra weight of the donut.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 2:59 pm:
Oops, hit post too soon .. in that way (by giving to the weight of the donut) he is almost using it himself as a following hand. The weight of the donut itself is creating the contact, however light, that he is physically unable to completely avoid.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 5:07 pm:
Shannon,
I think we are trying to achieve two different results. I want the horse to take contact with the bit, not avoid it. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post but I'm interpreting your statement that your gelding "stays off the extra pressure generated by the extra weight of the donut" as your horse not taking up the contact at all.
As I tried to state in a previous post, I view contact and pressure as two different things. elk's posts describe it better than mine.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 5:56 pm:
Actually that is exactly my point: when provided with a fixed point of contact (be it a fixed hand or fixed side reins), many green horses will stay behind it rather than take contact with it. The following hand's giving and receiving is what allows the horse to become comfortable working under contact.
You are right that the gelding I mentioned above is not comfortable taking contact at all right now, which is what we are working on: 1) be soft to my hand and 2) work under the give and take of my hand. As he is so light naturally, at this point he is actually learning through the very light contact provided by the weight of the donut on the sidereins that he can accept a feel of contact which gives and receives through his movement.
Imagine the weight of the donut as a very light weight at the end of a pulley: when he stretches forward into the weight, it is still there but gives with his movement, and when he comes back the same contact/weight is still there. The contact is indeed very light but it is a start and for this very sensitive horse I think a good one. As he becomes more comfortable with the idea we can increase the level of contact.
My aim is to keep him light and in my hands, working under contact but completely flexible.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 7:50 pm:
Imho, since a horse moves their head and neck considerably at a walk a fixed rein would only bump them.
I can see a fixed rein at trot when the head and neck are reletively still.
I have seen lunging with sidereins not recommended for this very reason.
Although as stated different experts will give different opinions.
Once it warms up enough to start hauling I will try the mare in a thinner bit and ...But you see this actually brings me back to my original issue.
At this point I am not even sure how to phrase my wondering.
Since the goal is to ride the horse back to front, the impulsion comes from the back, the strength comes from the back, how do we know if there is enough development to ask for more (contact), not sure if contact is the right word here. One of the criticsms that is made is that the horse is being asked to do more than they are developed for. The front end is outperforming the rear end. I think it is Klimke who said that the lift/angle of the rear should always match the front.
So, my gray area is how do I start using the topline? I think with long and low, to strengthen the back. but then how do you start to bring the head up maintaining a swinging back, and rhythm.
Hmm, likely some things have to give a bit in the learning and then re-introduced. So as to not overwhelm the horse with too much to do before it is strong and co-ordinated and understands the riders requests.
Btw Elk, in this case it is my mare who hasn't read the part about dressage being good for all horses.... haha she really is good natured as long as I leave her face alone. Which tells me I am doing something wrong!
What would be great is a week camp for dummies learning dressage. I would be the first one signed up.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 - 9:03 pm:
Let's throw this in the mix:
My mentor, an old cowboy from the old school(bronc busting out west) who taught himself a better way, told me this:
Ground driving is the most important part of training you can do. Don't worry about the head carriage, the head will naturally become lower as the horse's back rounds and he starts to drive with his hindquarters. Then the head will come back up, the neck will arch. He kept what appeared to be light constant contact at all times, adjusting rein length as needed. No side reins, fixed or other wise. His other advice was then to do the same riding, with many miles of trotting, getting the same affect as you did ground driving.
As I understood it, once you get the horse working & muscled, which involves many, many miles of trotting, you then start asking for more contact, the horse will hold it/accept it briefly, and then you release again.
Although my mentor passed away & I can't ask him these questions any more, I think the answer to your question, based on my understanding of what he told me: "So, my gray area is how do I start using the topline? I think with long and low, to strengthen the back. but then how do you start to bring the head up maintaining a swinging back, and rhythm."
---start asking for contact, and if you feel you loose the swinging back, release contact. Ask again, and gradually keep contact for longer periods of time, with the releases being shorter as the horse muscles up more and understands what you are asking.
He always believed that the biggest mistake riders nowadays (I think he meant anyone riding who was born after 1930?! LOL!)make was to expect a horse to perform when the horse didn't have enough miles on them, just arena riding asking for a certain look or "frame" which was forced. Trot, trot & trot some more! And when you feel the horse getting tired, ask for more with your legs while accepting the contact with the bit as he reaches while driving with the hind end. Make him maintain that breifly, and relax.
I am no dressage rider, not close, but I do have one horse who I can feel the swinging back, and I am using the method I just described. I can feel the changes which is a big WaHoo for me, but I am sure I'll never have anyone evaluate it, no interest in ribbons.
So, dressage gurus, whatdaya think of that?!  Make sense or not?
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New Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 - 7:52 am:
I, also, am finding this discussion fascinating, and from what I deduce, it depends on the rider's expertise and the horse's level of sensitivity. Sometimes, we can get so much into the theory and instruction, that we try to ride with our minds instead of by feel. Lori, I believe you are competent enough to know your horse and you will know what is too much and what isn't enough as you ride by feel. If it is time for your horse to do more in her training, you will be able to add pressure, and trust her and give her time to find the answers. Remember John's description of the horses' learning cycle? -- how they get bad, get better, get bad, get good, get REALLY BAD, and then get REALLY GOOD? Trust your gut and your horse, and I trust that you will find the answers together . . . and when looking at it in perspective, I think it's the communication and relationship you build between you along the way to your goal that is more important than reaching the goal.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 - 10:12 am:
Heyy I found this old thread posted by Christos ( talking about learning long and low in baby steps) About 1/4 of the way down on the first thread he really breaks it apart into steps.
For working long and low there are two recent discussions that may be of some help:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/76063.html https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/76175.html
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 - 10:18 am:
Lori, not sure if you have access to trails to ride from your location, but you can work on asking the horse to accept contact in that environment as well .. some horses are naturally more forward on the trail and as long as you keep your hands light, working on that nice give and take in a different environment can help them learn that it's ok.
Also yes I would start with long and low to strengthen the back, you are right in your thinking that the impulsion (and hence collection) comes from behind. I would think on this mare lots could be gained from work at a really active walk. Keep that impulsion on from behind and keep up a nice light following hand on her mouth so she can feel that nice soft contact.
Lastly I second (or third or fourth!) use of a french link snaffle. You might also try a mullen bit, some horses prefer those too.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 - 1:26 pm:
Angie, I think it does make sense.
Holly, aww thanks. Quit overthinking, right.
If I listen the horse will tell me.
I am really looking forward to riding this girl, she is either going to be one of the best horses I have ever had or the worst. The training cycle, I had forgotten. thank you for the reminder. Maybe I will have another look at my JL manual.
Leslie thanks for the link.
Now to remortgage the house to buy yet another bit.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 - 3:32 pm:
Lori, remember Dr. O started an area on here for tack swaps. Maybe you can trade one of your unused bits for a french-link?
Erika
PS. I too have been reading this thread with interest. I had just come to the conclusion that reading all this wasn't going to sink in until I was fiddling around with the actual reins in my hands!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 - 5:11 pm:
Long and low is fine as long as you can adjust it as necessary. I had a horse come back from a trainer once who'd been ridden on the buckle so consistently that he thought the reins were his property, and their length his decision. He blew sky high the first time I picked them up, and it's still work to remind him that the reins are NOT his property.
I love ground driving, but you have to have really good timing and a really light hand to make up for the weight and delay of the extra line. It helps to have a horse who doesn't take you water-skiing as well!
I like the loose ring french links too. I only have one horse right now who goes in something else, but that's because he's a naughty pony who sticks his tongue through the ring, pulls the whole job into his mouth, swallows it halfway, and then panics that his bridle attacked him. He can do this in one stride-- a talented sort of beast.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 - 5:50 pm:
Wow elk! You have got to video tape that tongue through the ring exercise. This I have to see.
I agree with you on the ground driving; I've never been able to get good enough at it.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 - 8:22 pm:
E. This is how I was taught long and low. Maintain contact at all times, very different from riding on the buckle.
Vary the low, once the horse has the idea of being a bit low, try to vary it a bit, asking for even lower for a few strides, then back to a med low.
Another thing is when you are low ask for gentle small flexions both sides.
My good mare got so she could walk half the arena blowing dust, looking first one way then the other.
Yes please a picture of the bit swallower. Sounds like a full cheek for that cheeky boy.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 - 9:49 pm:
The flexions are great-- they'll help keep her through her back and not falling on her shoulder.
I don't have pictures of the bit swallowing. I was riding him at the time and had to crawl up his neck to save him. He also once stole and half-swallowed one of my gloves, and then started choking on it. I was darned if I was calling the vet for a glove stuck in a pony, so fed him my wrench (I was fixing the ungrateful wretch's waterer), then stuck my hand down his throat while he was trying to swallow the wrench and retrieved the glove, then the wrench.
You can see in this photo why the BAD PONY is still here. He's cute, smart, athletic, and has a heart of gold. He also has an egg butt snaffle, which he has not yet swallowed. I give you Splash the pony:
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 - 1:00 am:
When he's finally warn out his welcome at your place, call Walt and send him to me. I'll pay.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 - 4:15 am:
Think we're going to have to fight over him ...
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 - 8:48 am:
Oooo, is he ever handsome! What breed is he?
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 - 9:34 am:
Ooh wow, he is georgeous.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 - 9:42 am:
We suspect him of being a Welsh mix, just because of the way he's built, and those big strong feet. I bought him from a dealer on a whim-- he had a rough history.
Did I mention he can climb over a board fence? Open a gate? Cut neat pony-sized holes through horse wire with his teeth?
If I do decide to sell him (I should-- he's too green and busy for a young beginner), I'll list him under the commercial links. I just haven't been able to bring myself to do it.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 - 10:23 am:
What a lovely pony, every kid's dream horse. Till they get on him from the sound of it ;)
Also I am envious of your hay barn .. oh, to have that much storage!!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 - 11:48 am:
He's truly good-hearted, and he took wonderful care of my daughter, but he's too much pony for a small inexpert person, and he's pretty young (6). So he's my riding pony right now. She wanted something much smaller and higher mileage.
Thanks! I love my hay shed-- you can self-unload semis right into it w/o stacking.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 - 2:00 pm:
He looks like he needs to come eventing in lower Alabama with a 5ft adult amateur. Put me on the bidding list if you decide to sell. Stacy
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 - 11:16 pm:
In reading that old thread mentioned above, it made me wonder why we've not heard from Christos--he had so much to share and was so willing and articulate. Also, DJ--are you there? I notice someone logged in with your user ID on January 5th? Would sure like to here from you!
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 11:33 pm:
Lori, I made another friend of mine aware of this discussion and your question, and this is what he answered:
My opinion on contact with the hands is fixing your hands at the trot, as well as, some slight movement at the walk and more at the canter. I really keep in mind "contact" and not "pulling". It is a fine art developed over time and with many different horses. Much work on the ground, with side reins, is so important with both young and older horses. Much work on the ground takes out the guess work for the horse, as to what you want when you are riding. Of course much work with long reins and side reins together, from the ground, is the secret of the Spanish Riding School. With young horses, I think the time ratio on the ground should be three times, for every one time in the saddle. So, I may lunge for three or four days, then ride once. I think your progress will be much faster. The person who advised you to let the horse find their "position" is correct. The advantage with side reins is that the horse sorts out the contact for himself, the human is not pulling, so the bad habits do not develop from the saddle, with hands struggling with contact. I start with the side reins loose, and free lunge the horse (no line).Then over time I shorten, and I also set a slight bend to "straighten" the horse. The inside side rein is always shorter than the outside. This gradually straightens the horse's travel and sets him up for using his hind quarters and lifting him off his front end. And yet, I am not using my hands to "lighten" the horse or straightened, it is all on the ground, and the horse is finding his own contact and way of going. You will be amazed at the horse's progress, once they figure it out. They become very happy in their work, and they do not have a lot of bad habits created by our hands. Also, it is absolutely imperative to start the lateral movements both on the ground and from the saddle to keep the horse from getting "heavy" on the bit, and stay very responsive to your contact with your hands. Many riders do not realize the value of mixing in lateral movement, early in training, so the horse does not grab the bit, tuck under, or evade the contact. The second I suspect the evasion from my contact, I move out of the straight track or the circle, and I do a lateral movement. When the evasion stops, I keep the contact, as I move back to the circle or the straight line. It takes some time to get the feel, but a pair of eyes on the ground can help.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2009 - 10:00 am:
Holly,
I loved your post. I sometimes feel like I "should" be riding more when I find myself doing ground work. I do as much as I know how from the ground, including lateral work, and I believe in voice commands! A horse that knows "WHOA NOW DA***T" can save your neck, lol!
The side reins used as you described make sense, now back to the question of solid, or with the rubber donut?
I should have clarified in my post above, most of the ground driving is done at the trot once the a young horse accepts the bit and surcingle/saddle.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 - 2:59 pm:
to Elk: ok now I am feeling a bit defensive. haha
It would take a long reply to explain everything. I'll shorten a bit.
I did/do have expert training assistance. My Friesian mare tends to keep her head UP, I tend to lose my balance; I did not always have a nice independent seat. Young green mare, and beginning rider with an ok but not finished independent seat.
Trainer had me ride with a more fixed hand position because as I tried to follow her movement I'd bump her too much. We taught her to stretch out and move on longe; then under saddle, on a long rein I more or less fixed my hand position to a very soft light touch of her mouth. Once 'there' it was up to her to find comfort.
There are advantages and disadvantages to doing anything with a horse. Beginning this way actually helped her stop avoiding contact!! Once she could trust where it was she accepted it. And yes they can learn to lean, but she has not learned this.
We progressed from a fixed hand to a following hand as I am she progressed. When I get off balance, I simply fix my hand a bit more and try to stay out of her mouth. I am NOT a super high level rider yet.
I had a new trainer ride her yesterday, as I need to work with a more local person, in between working with my main trainer. Anyway she was impressed and amazed at how light and soft (super responsive) my mare is, soft on contact and wanting consistent contact but so light, never leaning. I contribute that not to my hands, but to how I ask her to move. She is to always move from back to front and always relaxed and balanced over four feet. Or as much as possible anyway. ;}
We don't all have access to a school master, some of us only have one horse we ride and train. I simply do the best I can under direction while learning to feel more and more every ride. But when I know I am getting "too handy" I set my hands and go back to square one and start over. Bella understands this and accepts it very graciously, she is a very good little girl, and then we move forward from there again. It's one of our comfort/safety/I-know-this places to return to when needed now. Initially it simply helped her accept the light contact without fussing.
Angie - if you use sidereins (ack!) use the rubber donut ones at the least. Sorry I am not a fan of working with side reins. And yes may seem counter, because I will ride with a fixed hand somewhat. (had position even fixed and change frequently as needed, longer rein as horse asks to stretch forward, shortened when she pops her head way up when startled, etc.) But when on longe I prefer to know how well "we" are working and sidereins get in the way of that for me. She'll take siderein contact and move, but she does tend then to tense in her neck more. I prefer getting that gorgeous lipstick/frothing on just her movement alone in the cavesson, no bit. Just me, I do love a challenge and I enjoy practicing the art of longe.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 - 3:40 pm:
I am a BIG fan of ground work as well, and also use a lot of voice commands especially when starting under saddle. I think once they can associate the words with the correct movement on the ground, you can translate the words to correspond with your body contact and other cues.
For a horse that was going to be worked on contact I would definitely use sidereins with 'give' in them, preferably the elastic kind. The ones I have with the donut are quite stiff, much less give than my hands when riding. I personally also like to keep them fairly long in the beginning and always make the inside rein slightly shorter. You can always shorten them up as needed but starting with them too short can cause a fight or wreck.
Terrie I think the important thing here is that you have found something that works for you and your mare. Every horse and every situation is different, and if the result is a soft, responsive, HAPPY horse (and happy rider!) that is what counts the most in my book! }
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 - 12:58 pm:
Hi Terrie,
Oh your results sound wonderful. I just think they may be hard to reproduce for someone w/o training support who is a novice.
I love groundwork too, but I do always remind myself that groundwork doesn't fix a hard or uneducated hand, it just adds leverage and removes the rider's balance from the equation. So a person with a well-intentioned hand and a developing seat is going to get good results, while a truly hard-handed person may make the situation worse.
Many roads lead to Rome-- there are a lot of ways to develop a horse to a good result. I love these discussions where I can hear what other folks do, and think about my own approach again.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 - 10:58 pm:
Holly,
Thank you so much for taking the time to post your friends answer.
This thread has helped me really think through what I want to accomplish with a youngster.
While I won't say I know what to do now. I do at least have a clearer understanding of how to make the steps to progress.
My poor filly is going to be my guinea pig.
Your friends explanation clarifies the swirling mass of training variations in my mind.
Good to know I should start lateral movements right away. I would if I was training western.
I am curious- at what age of horse was your friend referring? Would he use the same ratio of lunging to riding on an older (5yr) just broke horse?
Yes as you say there are many (good)roads to Rome. This actually was part of my confusion because many people were explaining only part of their road to me.
Thank you to everyone who took the time to post.
Sidereins, give or no give. I have heard(read) very competent trainers give very good reasons for each kind. So, maybe the key is to understand the different ways they work and then pick one to suit the horse?
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Member:
imogen
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 - 3:33 am:
The "history of tack and harness" expert, Elwyn Hartley-Edwards, who also wrote a lot about training young horses, changed his opinion during his long life on this (I always admire people with open minds).
He originally preferred give, but moved to no give.
However I have never seen anyone actually using sidereins without donuts or elastic here - possibly it's just all they sell in the saddlery shops these days. I use the donuts, but they sort of come in different squishinesses so maybe compromise on fairly firm ones?
Imogen
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 - 11:13 am:
I am just catching up with all the new posts since my last post.
I have noticed that I cannot find side reins without the rubber donut. Mine had them, but one broke, just old. So I put a somewhat heavy c-link on it, the linking things you would use to join 2 chains together. It's not really heavy, but sorta like when one uses the slobber straps, they add a tad bit of weight.
So if you want to try to experiment with solid vs those that give, you can find a way to make the giving side reins solid and see which way the horse prefers.
As I've thought about it, I think the side reins should be solid, just as your hands should be steady, at the trot. I don't believe you should use the side reins at any other gait, because that would not be comfortable for the horses mouth.
Of course, is you are using the cavesson, maybe that changes things being you are not in the horses mouth?
This conversation makes me want to go out and try things, I wonder how well it would work to do ground work with snow shoes on?
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 - 11:45 am:
Imogen interesting, does Mr. H-E give any reasons for his change of mind?
Angie there is about two feet of snow in my round corral, so when the horses walk they sink about 1 1/2.
Bonus tho, when asked for a trot they pick their feet up a bit higher.
Can't ask for much because it certainly is more work for them.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 18, 2009 - 3:30 pm:
I use side reins when longeing at the trot. I use 'no-give' one that I made of simple clothesline rope and a couple of clips on each end. I also tied knots on the line so that I may attach the clip at different spots to shorten or lengthen. Very easy to make and very, very cheep. Ive not had any problems with them.
One place to get quality horse tack is from the Amish. If you have a amish community in your area. I know they make everything here from long line to side reins etc. Some use real leather but alot have switched to making it out of 'bio-thane'.
Just a thought
Leslie
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Jan 30, 2009 - 12:01 am:
Hey Elk -
You wrote: I love groundwork too, but I do always remind myself that groundwork doesn't fix a hard or uneducated hand, it just adds leverage and removes the rider's balance from the equation. So a person with a well-intentioned hand and a developing seat is going to get good results, while a truly hard-handed person may make the situation worse.
Just thought I would throw out something my trainer used on a person that was a heavy handed rider. Yup he had him fix his hands. Well he also put a line on the horse to allow the horse to move correctly; let the rider feel the horse's movement then when the line came off and he rode with a fixed hand position, the horse was free to move - and did! So it can help someone with heavy hands to learn a softer feel.
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