This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Topics Not Covered Above »
  Discussion on When Does Personality Develop
Author Message
Member:
aannk

Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 3:25 pm:

By what age do you think foals develop their personality?
I have heard good and bad things about the personality of other foals by Voltaire. My baby, so far, is one of the quietest horses, let alone foals, I have ever been around.
He is almost 4 months old. If he were to be one of the crazy ones, is it likely to have already shown up? Will he hit puberty and turn whacko? Anyone else have general experience in this, and particular experience with Voltaire babies?
He has been handled daily since birth by very experienced people, and has always been treated well, so whatever his temperament turns out to be, it won't be worse for his interaction with people (I hope to keep it that way).
Member:
babychop

Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 6:59 pm:

My last colt was sweet like that & still is, he turned a year in March. My latest foal, however, was a tyrant from day one and though he has sweetened up he is still FULL of fight at 4 months. It took us an HOUR to get 5 staples out of his shoulder last weekend and that was with a lip chain & side line hobble!!! I think they come out with what they are & just refine it over time...

The first one was imprinted, this one was not but they have both been handled since day one.
Member:
imogen

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 4:20 am:

Very early. I have, at one month old, what would politely be called a "little fecker" here in Ireland this time around, yet her full sister now 3 yo is one of the quietest, most amenable horses I have ever come across.

The only difference is I had the quiet one from 3 days old and it had to be kept in the stable for the first week, whereas this bold one was at a stud farm for a month and had to have some treatment (microchipping/sarcoid removal) which may have coloured its view of humans although I know the humans involved would have done their absolute best to make sure it wasn't too traumatic.

Even bearing that in mind, this foal is so sassy with her mother and so independent I do think this is genetics rather than environment in some way.

Imogen
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 4:42 am:

I think foals are born with the biggest amount of personality it just starts to show and get's more clear when they grow up. Look at the way they behave to mum and other horses and normally when they know you well enough they will act the same to you. Nip in the but everything you do not like but as Imogen calls it 'sassy' will stay sassy however perhaps well behaved sassy.
We talked about this before but what exactly do you mean if you say Voltaires children are crazy? in what way, what do they do? It keeps surprising me because really even with years of 200 foals a year he was known for the sweet disposition of his children. A little temperament yes but sweet and as you are used to TBs I cannot imagine you would have problems with a bit of a 'hot ' or sensitive horse.
At this moment I already know that little Utah[born may30th] will be one to geld or keep away from mares and children, while Cascade never gave any problems on that part and is about the most difficult horse to ride I ever owned. What exactly are you afraid he might become?
Jos
PS Imogen lets put Margot Unlimited and your new 'sassy' horned one together and take turns in coping with independent. Margot was born like that never had to go anywhere no vet touched her and from day one she told mum when she was going to eat what she was going to eat and do and for the rest poor Corona could follow or not she didn't care.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 9:55 am:

You are opening up one of the biggest debates of all time! How much genetics vs how much conditioning (learning,surroundings, discipline etc.) affect the outcome of personality. This has been a hot topic for a very long time and if there is a definitive answer, I haven't heard it.
It's my opinion that genetics gives a horse (or person) the propensity of different behavioral traits, and conditioning either develops those traits or develops "weaker" traits. So, I believe that a horse is born with a tendency to have a certain personality, but that tendency can be over-ridden by patience, discipline etc., but the tendency will always be there.
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 10:16 am:

I am not at all convinced that this is any different from growing a child of any other species. DNA provides the foundation and the framework. There are barriers and doors to be unlocked and explored and others best left closed. We are all a product of our DNA and environment. Whether or not this is balanced or one weighs more heavily than the other will be the discussion of the ages, and already has been. I doubt that will EVER be resolved in my lifetime. Yes, pedigrees sell, but so does handling, training, and we all agree that brains & attitude are the most important traits when looking for a man OR a horse! They determine the trainability of either. This HAS to be an interesting thread!
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 10:37 am:

Yes, I agree wit Sara, Cyndy. A foal, like a child, is born with certain tendencies, personal experience shapes those tendencies for good or bad.

I have often heard that a mare will teach her foal, but my personal experience, (very limited) suggests that foals can react quite independantly of their dam.
Two examples, we had a difficult to catch mare that we occasional bred. At first we were concerned she would teach her baby to be difficult also, each baby was easily caught; more recently my very easy going mare would stand quietly, ignoring whatever commotion was going on and her baby would spook, bolt, fling her head, hyper sensitive to every noise even touch.
With very persistent training she has learned to control most of her instinctive reactions but the tendency is still very much there.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 10:44 am:

I didn't really respond to your original question.

My limited experience with foals tells me that they are born with their personality, so if your baby is showing a quiet sensible personality now that is what he will have as an adult.
Barring any traumatic experiences.
Also, I remember reading on this forum that it seems horses do go through a slightly unruly time around 4 years old.
Member:
aannk

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 11:02 am:

jos,
Look here. https://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3370558#post3370558
See what folks are saying. I don't know personally about any Voltaires at all, I have only ever met one. He is currently the most popular breeding hunter stallion in the country, Popeye K, and he, for one, was not crazy at all.
So, when I say my baby is by Voltaire, I usually get the "oh, I knew one who was CRAZY" and that is where this is coming from.
I really hope his personality stays like this. I think he is the least reactive horse I have ever owned. There will be difficulties in getting him motivated, I think, but that, for me, is the lesser of all evils :-)
Alicia
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 12:45 pm:

I think that if you are always calm around him and treat him fairly, he will stay calm. By treating him fairly, I also mean during his training sessions. Foals, imo, are like childern and do go through stages. Mine have hit the "terrible twos" just like my children did, and then they kind of "fall apart" when around four, then they seem to mellow out and by the time they are 6 they are fine. Expect some ups and downs and just work through them.

I breed Arabians, and you know the reputation they have in some circles! Yet, all of mine have turned out sensible. But, we did have some issues to work through with some of them.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 12:53 pm:

Ok I think I am starting to understand. Compared to what I have seen from QH Pinto's and other horses favoured in the US shows[I know just a first impression!] a Voltaire will have to be put to work, will have a different idea about how much work is enough etc.An old saying goes: a German horse you put to work wit discipline and a TB you get on your knees and ask. With this in the back of your mind you should understand they are made this way[the WBs for a reason] just as QH TB and my favourite Arabs are selected for their willingness calmness[QH I mean] etc.
A dressagehorse [is the European consensus] you need to be able to RIDE push him a bit and he needs to accept that without going berserk[I mean pushing Really riding on giving putting his muscles to work etc. A real big German horsesaler[?] once explained if the horse cannot handle this the daily stress especially in the later stages passage and piaffe get's to hard on them. Showjumping same thing they get ridden round controlled every metre[giving dressage etc don't know how to explain] worked placed for the obstacle and their ability lies in their balance and technique handling obstacles and technical ability to play with the lenght of stride.
Apart from tha in the US you have a lot of TB mares[hot temperament from time to time?and very intelligent now don't eat me but most warmbloods are less intelligent and more prone to obeying] if you get a mix with mummies intelligence and daddie's :I would like to know if and why I need to work. You could have a problem and this is just 1 example.
IMO Voltaire scored very well[try the Nimmerdor blood!] and as far as putting it to Furioso. It was very well known that Furioso xx[Father of the German Furioso II] had a difficult mouth[as a lot of french horses do] With a very well build WB 'neck' not such a problem but when the confirmation of the neck was difficult : you see the problem coming.
All of the above just my opinion don't wand to stand on toes but I really love Voltaire
Jos
Member:
aannk

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 1:37 pm:

I have nothing against Voltaire, after all, I DID pick him!
By the way just for reference, there are VERY few QH and Pintos in the rated hunter ring here in the US. Most of the top horses these days are TBs and WBs. I would say probably 60% WB, 30%TB and the rest a mix.
Your info is very much appreciated. This guy's Dam was the most eager to please of any horse I have owned. I hope that tempers the "why do I need to do this", but I have a feeling he is going to be very much that way. As long as his reaction is to just not do it, as opposed to bucking, rearing, or running off, I will be happy :-)
I use the least amount of tack I can. I prefer the Meyer bits, which I hope will help with any mouth problems. He does look quite a bit like Daddy, with Mom's eyes (he has her huge doe eyes with eyelashes that almost cover his eye!), so his mouth may be similar.
If I need to ride him to get him going that is fine. However, his job will be a lot easier than being a dressage horse or a jumper. He will need to be able to flow around a course of no bigger than 4 foot fences that are designed to be inviting to inspire nice form over the fence. He will have to have a large natural canter stride and be able to keep a steady rhythm and lengthen or shorten in the rhythm (without being obvious about the lenght of stride change). He will need to go in a first level frame. No tight corners, slow around the course. The idea is to present a horse that the judge would enjoy riding to the hounds.
Alicia
Member:
babychop

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 2:21 pm:

Okay Alicia, now that you've given a description of him you've GOT to post a photo...
Member:
aannk

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 2:37 pm:

There are plenty of him, just search on Dillon. I have a few from the Pirelli session, but they aren't real great quality wise.
I think there may even be a pic of mom and dad.
Alicia
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 2:38 pm:

'Furioso xx with the difficult mouth' is generations away from yours I wouldn't worry and even then a good rider handles it all[well the french do don't they they do excellent as showjumpers] they ride them longer too and with a mum like yours I get your choice and think you have a fair chance of getting what you want.
Apart from that normally it isn't even 'I won't do it' if they understand what you want they almost always give it a go but like a friend of mine said[she did dressage up to Grand Prix level]: a Nimmerdor thinks 80% of his ability is enough and if you want more you will have to work for it.
Make that 95% for the usual Voltaire and you get the picture. On the other hand she also said her Nimmerdor was already so good at 80% he still was better then most other competitors
Jos
Member:
aannk

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 3:17 pm:

Jos,
Lilly always gave me 95%, and I thought that was GREAT! Most of my horses haven't offered up their all. If I get a baby with half of Voltaire's talent and it gives me 80%, that will be PLENTY! 95% would be amazing :-)
Alicia
Member:
babychop

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 6:39 pm:

For anyone who's interested here's a video of Voltaire from YouTube... Found him, he looks very calm & is quite a lovely jumper! Didn't find Dillon though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdVpQG8gSsk

Is that him Alicia?
Member:
juliem

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 7:53 pm:

Wow, I don't know why anyone takes the gamble of breeding?? Why not buy a weanling or yearling with the pedigree, sex and attitude you are after. The internet makes this kind of search a piece of cake! Even pick your color! Factor in all the physical things that can go wrong with mare and/or foal and it really stacks the deck!
I guess this is why there are so many "unwanted" horses. The gambler lost the roll of the dice!
Member:
aannk

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 10:54 pm:

Andrea,
Yes, that is Voltaire.
If you go here https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/6/256810.html you will see photos of Dillon. I plan on posting more soon :-)
Alicia
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 11:54 pm:

Julie, in general I agree with you. We were breeders for over 20 years and had a very specialized market and never had a problem selling a foal for good money, to a good home. However, for someone to breed a horse because they want a riding/performance horse, or to "have a foal to grow up with their child" doesn't make much sense, imo. Especially the later, and you wouldn't believe how many people have called about our stallions, (with no idea of breeding costs, of course,) wanting to breed their little back yard mare so the kids could raise and grow up with a foal.

If you can find a young prospect, or even better, a well trained horse in your discipline, if makes a lot more sense and is much more of a "sure thing." There are exceptions, of course, where I could see why someone would want a youngster; but in most circumstances, you are right.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 4:01 am:

Julie I agree too. Just one small thing there are people totally addicted to horsebabies and 'how will it grow up' getting themselves in trouble because then they won't sell if the buyer isn't perfect or beyond
Jos
Member:
babychop

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 10:47 am:

Well, Alicia, I have to say he's a lovely colt! And he reminds me SO much of my little Biscuit! Mine tears around like a maniac, taking laps of the yard & sleeps a lot. Full of fight too. Mine is out of my Anglo-Trak mare (by Beaute') and by Rosenthal. He's truly full of p*** & vinegar but I think that's mostly because he's so sensitive... I have to take some current photos of him, he's got the loveliest neck I've ever seen these days...

As for being addicted to horse babies (I know the conversation is in general but I thought I'd pipe up), I've had horses for 25 years and had 5 babies of my own. It's been a wonderful experience and I do love to raise them but I make sure I teach them everything I can from the day they're born so they will have a very good life, I also find the best stallion I can afford that will compliment my mare's conformation & temperament (and I LOVE her line). I'm sticking with my last two, they aren't going anywhere, they're just two special to me and the last babies I'm going to have. The ones I've sold have all gone to loving homes that truly wanted them, I've been fortunate.

Some of us can't afford to buy that desired bloodline on the ground & have to breed to get it. That's what got me into it and I'm so glad I have. I do agree that 'backyard breeders' who breed 'just to have a baby' are a big part of the problem of unwanted horses as many choose not to look at the faults & conformational defects of their mare and breed it down the line. I've seen some with legs so wonked out it's a wonder they can move - and they're trying to sell based on the bloodline of the stallion, kind of like a puppy mill if you ask me. I guess that could happen to anyone but if you do your research and truly have a desire to better the animal rather than do it just to do it you have a MUCH better chance of coming out with a desirable foal. Just my little soap box... I'm down off it now...

Here's the boy when he was almost a month old:
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 10:53 am:

Alicia - thanks for posting the link to his baby photos. Is he really turning gray? I looked at the youtube video of Voltaire jumping - very nice!
Lilo
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 4:06 pm:

I am one of those people who can't afford to buy that ready made horse. There is no way that my husband will agree to spend that kind of money. However the first horse that I raised from a foal is 20 years old and I don't plan to sell her three year old daughter either. I think that the AQHA and the breeders who are breeding 200 mares a year looking for that one horse to go to the Reining World or whatever are more of a problem.

Cynthia
Member:
babychop

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 8:38 pm:

Excellent Cynthia, you are not of whom I was venting (I guess I couldn't help offending someone on that rant, sorry). I was referring to those that do it just because they can, don't research the bloodline or think about conformation, etc. & then don't plan on keeping the baby or caring for it properly... The Friday night auctions are full of those. I agree with you on the 200 mares a year deal - one shouldn't breed what one can't support & should be prepared to keep the baby/babies if they can't find the right home. It's only fair.

I also can tell of a man (and I busted him on this) who leased his 17h 2 year old Trakehner gelding to a lady who jumped him (what were they thinking???!!!) & broke his coffin bone. Instead of doing the right thing and humanely euthanizing the horse he had some guy take him to aforesaid auction (where I just happened to be for something to do, and noticed the branded horse - who looked VERY familiar to me - going through unregistered). I called him & pried the story out of him. I was PISSED. Needless to say, the nacker man bought that beautiful thing & I fear what he saw the last moments of his short life. It's that kind of irresponsible management that sets me off.
Member:
aannk

Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 9:17 pm:

I hate to have to say this, but this thread really wasn't about why I bred or why anyone breeds :-).
Does anyone else have any other expereiences with babies and personality to share?
Lilo,
Yes, either grey or roan, but roan is pretty rare in both TBs and WBs, so I assume he is going to go totally grey.
That's OK, a good horse is any color :-)
Alicia
Member:
morg1

Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 1:14 am:

Hi Alicia,

I find that most of my babies were (it seems) born with their personality. I've had some that were pistols and trying to buck before they could even stand properly when I was trying to help them find their first drink and others that were as sweet and calm as could be and willing to be manipulated into place. To me, they seem to stay with their personalities. I'm sure that mom has something to do with future behavior, but I feel that genetics run most of it. If he is sweet and calm now, I don't see any reason for him to change. This year, I have an ornery, independent filly that acts like a colt most of the time and a calm little momma's boy.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 3:51 am:

At Haras de Brullemail they use there Grand Prix mares for embryotransplantation. Two of them have a let's say'horned'character they used docile Standardbred carrymothers, the oldest ones are now three and as far as they can see[I know small number and not scientific proof just wanted to share] they resemble their genetic mummies and wear the poor carry mothers to death
Jos
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 11:20 am:

Hi Alicia - grey is pretty. But the best horse we ever had was a red roan - so I am partial to both colors. Except that my gray mare is so hard to keep clean ....

Lilo
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 6:19 pm:

Alicia,
On the subject of your thread, I had the grandmother whose name (rightly) was Sweetheart, her daughter Shimmeree and the granddaughter, Sea Dancer. Shimmeree as a foal was very sweet and she passively let me imprint her at birth. Shimmeree is still sweet but she is fairly sensitive and more reactive than her mom.
Sea Dancer on the other hand literally hit the ground fighting. Shimmeree never laid down and I had to hold her head and shoulders so that she wouldn't land on her head. Of course the umbilical cord broke from the fall. I tried to imprint her as well but I really had my hands full. She struggled so hard that I gave up. Sea Dancer has not been mean, doesn't bite or kick but she is pushy and lazy. She is not sensitive like her mom.
Cynthia
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC