|
|
Discussion on Arab mare bolting
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
jessam
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 - 7:33 pm:
I have a training problem with my Arab mare working fine on the ground until she decides shes had enough and decides to bolt, ripping the lead out of my hand. This only takes about 10min of work for it to happen. She also does this when Im in the seat and for obvious reasons I am now afraid to get on her. I have been training her for the past 3 years the Parelli method. I have to admit I am not consistant with training. She is 7 now and Im thinking I need to send her to a professional. Doing this worries me I may get a horse back that is afraid of everything I do. She has come to trust me and has a good personality which I dont want ruined. Anyone have any suggestions for me? I know if I get back on her, Im going to get hurt badly as I dont have the strength or confidence I once did. Im not afraid to say Im Scared! She responds well to cues on the ground. But she can swing that butt right around and spin me right off. Any help would Greatly be appreciated.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 - 7:54 pm:
Hi jacque, I would highly recommend you send her to a trainer....she has your number .
If you choose your trainer correctly, she will not come back distrusting, or with any bad habits.
Then go to the trainers and watch, take lessons and learn how to overcome your fear...I know that is much easier said then done!
The Parelli method does not work if you don't apply it correctly, most people need to take courses with a GOOD certified Parelli trainer, to get it. Otherwise you can do more damage then good, have seen that more than once.
Your sense of timing and release needs to be darn near perfect for the Parelli exercises to work, it is a great way to develop it, but something someone definitely needs to teach and explain.
Unfortunately very few of us a born with the trait. It is easy to develop tho once it clicks in your head, and you have a good teacher.
Good Luck
|
Member:
jessam
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 - 8:24 pm:
Thank you Diane for your advice. Your absolutely right, shes got my number! I will start seeking a trainer, but to be honest I am very nervous about finding a trusting one. Ive heard so many bad things about sending horses off to trainers. And I know what you mean about trying to do the Parelli thing. Its great if your focused and thats all you do, but in my case its not working well at all. I have broke most of my horses, but age is creeping up on me and this one here is just too spunky for me.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 - 8:58 pm:
I know what you mean jacque. The last horse I broke seemed much more challenging, I don't really think he was, I just didn't have it in me to do anymore, and frankly I didn't want to do it anymore.
A good trainer can be hard to find, ask for references, talk to other horse people ect., but if you can find the right one it's well worth it and a great experience. Just don't expect a 1 month miracle.
The good trainers around here won't even take a horse for a month of "breaking". They say they get a bad reputation because people expect a " well broke" horse in that time, and as we know it actually takes years to get to "well broke"
Stay safe!
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 - 9:11 pm:
I agree with DianeE, if you are afraid it is time to seek help. Perhaps you could find someone who would train you and the horse at the same time.
DrO
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 - 11:34 pm:
Where are you located?? Maybe we can collectively give a referral..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
jessam
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 6:37 am:
Thank you all. I now know I need to find a good trainer. Guess it just takes someone to tell me that I am located in Kempton, Pa. if anyone can recommend one. Im near the northeast portion of PA. Lehigh Valley Area. Thanks again
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 8:42 am:
The while you are looking for a trainer, try changing your tactics a little. If your mare is like mine was at that age, (and still can be that way at 20)I am guessing any movement gets her in high gear and pretty soons she's just outa there!
I'd try some bonding and calm down cues to start. Lots of massage type rubbing, lowering her head with the slightest pressure on the lead rope, bringing her head around to her side laterally. Remember to give to the slightest try. Get her all relaxed and sleepy like if you can. This will relax you and give you confidence too. Well, don't go to sleep!
Can you walk her beside you in an arena or round pen or other enclosed area? With a slack line, her stopping when you do, and backing when you do? Just keep building on these little things, don't worry about riding right now.
Have a certain word or sound that gets her attention when she want's to go her own way. Like a sharp "UH UH" Or "SSSSHHHH" the main thing being keep this calm and quiet and slowly building on that til you can let her be on the lunge line again at speeds. Which comes before riding. Your first lunging sessions will be with maybe 6' of rope between you and her, her walking, you have the end of the rope ready to crack her butt if she turns it to you.
I personally think PP is a wonderful show man, and I love watching Linda ride. I don't however, think much of his way of "playing" with the horse and spending $1000's to buy all his stuff so you can learn how to do it. "Carrot stick overkill" I call it.
Think outside the box now, the boxed DVD's that PP sold for sure!
Love to see a picture, love those Arabs!
Good luck, and stay safe. And I have a guy I've been afraid of many times, nothing wrong with being scared, that's how we stay alive.
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 9:47 am:
Jacque, it's a bit of a drive, but in Layton NJ (nw part of Sussex County) is a wonderful, intuitive trainer who I have used for starting two horses. Several of my friends have used him to help with "problem horses" and he is nothing short of miraculous.Ed Diaz at Serenity Farm. If you're interested, post again and I can get you his number.
Problem is, you really need to be there to work with your trainer to be effective in the long run. It would be minimum two hour drive from where you live.
The good news is that you are in horse country. Ask around who has used a trainer with good results. I'll bet a couple of names will start to repeat and you can start by talking to them to get a feel for who will work best for you.
Erika
|
New Member:
felldoc
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 12:10 pm:
Hello, Jacque. I also live in northeast PA (near Saylorsburg), and speaking from personal experience, the best trainer I know - someone who will not ruin your horse - is Gretchen Gannon-Petit. I don't know if she's still working with problem horses, but you can reach her through the Mountain View Farm web site: www.mtviewfarm.com.
As a long-time horse owner who no longer finds it "challenging" to work with problem horses, I strongly support the suggestion that you get professional help, and you should do it before you or your horse has an accident. Your veterinarian might be able to recommend a good trainer. I haven't searched the HA web site for suggestions on selecting a trainer, but perhaps Dr. O and members can post some pointers on what to ask and what to expect. One thing I would assume is that at some point in the training, the trainer would want to work with you and your horse.
Meanwhile, please be careful, and keep us posted.
Judy
|
Member:
jessam
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 12:18 pm:
You guys are awesome! Erika, your horse sounds like mine. I have done all the things you have suggested and she is wonderfull. She does so much for me when Im on the ground. But just recently she has started this bolting when Im working her or trying to ride. Shes fine and then all of the sudden its like someone has gotten under her butt and she just bolts. Thats where my fear starts and ends. Ive been slammed too many times now, and Im not waiting till I get really hurt. Today I have blisters on my fingers from her bolting and pulling the rope right out of my hand. Judy, thanks for your help too. I know Gretcen by way of her brother who is my farrier. Since he is coming tomorrow I will ask him about her and see what he says. I used to live in Saylorsburg up near Ross Common.
|
Member:
kshayden
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 12:47 pm:
Hi guys,
I am certainly no expert, but it is very common for horses to go through a refusal period during training. It usually means that you either missed a step or need to go back a couple of steps and do some refreshers. Young minded horses do have timeclocks especially if the owner is very consistent in training - i.e. 1/2 hour each day - the horse 'learns' the clock and then decides when time is up and says - well, that is the end of this session ..... so it is so important to change up your times with these young minded horses. I love watching Parelli - but also being a dog trainer - positive reinforcement training - the results come much slower and the 'grey' area is pretty large.
Personally, I like the John/Josh Lyons certified trainers. They at least have a piece of paper that say they have been through the courses.
It is always nice to not just have recommendations but to also go and watch some training to see if you like the way they approach horses.
For instance, great trainer, loved what she did in the saddle, but ran the heck out of them in the round pen prior to mounting - for a 7 yr old - not too big a deal - but a young, growing horse - IMO too much on the joints of spinning and running. It did teach respect quickly - but ???
Arabs seem to have a very cooperative temperament - please make sure something isn't 'hurting' her, causing the reaction before you send her off.
Kathy
|
Member:
lhenning
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 6:21 pm:
Hi Jacque,
I am in a similar situation, but not so much bolting as you describe. My horse is also 7 and I have worked through many fear issues during the past years. Right now, I only ride him in an arena because I am afraid he'll bolt outside again.
What you describe, with your horse pulling on the lunge line, is resistance. Work on getting more respect by rapidly backing her. Also, she needs to learn to give to pressure from the rope halter, which I assume you use because you are Parelli. It is because she does not respect the halter that she feels she can pull away.
I have studied many of the Western clinicians and I personally find the best results with Clinton Anderson. However, I think they all are effective if used correctly. When I began training my horse, I skipped lessons that were hard - believe it or not I decided MY horse didn't like doing them. Oops, wrong!! I went back and did them again and did each lesson until my horse got it right. Took a long time. It also took being very consistent with my time. I went from working him twice a week to four times a week. I now keep a journal and record my plan for each week, then at the end of the week I write how that plan went. It has helped a great deal.
As for the fear issues, I work through them as exercises. I recommend a book called "Riding With Confidence" which is available on Julie Goodnight's webpage. Just Google it. I know relaxing is everything. Your horse may be reacting to your fear and that is why she bolts. She is running to safety because she does not feel safe with you - why would she, even you are afraid. That is the hardest thing with horses. They don't know we are afraid of them, they think we are afraid of some monster lurking about.
So Clinton often talks about two kinds of problem horses. Ones with respect issues, and ones with fear issues. Figure out which yours has, or both, and begin dealing with that in a consistent manner. Don't ride if you are afraid. Work on the ground and find your happy place together. It is supposed to be fun, remember that. If you decide the horse is beyond your abilities, there is no disgrace in deciding to find her a new home either. It has to be a good match between horse and rider or it won't work.
Finding a trainer is a great place to start but you will need to make changes in your own methods too.
Good luck,
Linda
|
Member:
kshayden
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 6:41 pm:
I just got an email of MyHorse.com newsletter - as luck would have it, the first topic is one point Linda just addressed. The first line is "Frustration and fear can go hand-in-hand when we are talking about control issues with an animal who weighs half a ton. Unfortunately, neither emotion contributes to the calm leadership that horses both need and want." John Lyons.
I am 'signed' up, not sure if others can get ahold of it. It has the 'option' of emailing to a friend - so I can forward to an email addy, just not our list.
Kathy
Kathy
|
Member:
kshayden
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 7:00 pm:
I am convinced the reason horse trainers are so successful is they have a goal, a regiment and a proven method - not to mention no fear (so to speak) - regardless of what method they use - they at least use it daily and without question.
Those of use studying one technique or another - question ourselves and 'our' methods each time we put them in practice. The horse needs a leader - so when one of the methods we just watched on a video doesn't work - or not the same way - we question - poor horse....
Kathy
|
Member:
jessam
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 7:33 pm:
You all have given me such good advice. Thank you all. I agree will all of you and your thoughts. As much as I try to tell myself "I am the leader" and try to convince myself, it all just melts away when I get on. I have all the confidence in the world on the ground. Yes, all the trainers are good, but they also have no fear or very little, and also do this for a living! Id be good too if I did this for a living. But, age and broken bones, and knobby knees, and aching backs have gotten the best of this woman! Im stubborn though and wont give up. I will continue to work with this mare until I feel confident Ive found a good trainer. In the mean time ground work will be my goal only. I am definately going to get the book Riding with Confidence. Sometimes I think thats my biggest issue and problem. Not the horse. Thank you again for all this great knowledge.
|
Member:
cgby1
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 8:08 pm:
Jacque,
I would like to suggest that until you get the problem solved, that you wear gloves.
Cynthia
|
Member:
jessam
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 8:29 pm:
Yea, Cynthia, I thought of that after the fact.
|
Member:
lhenning
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2008 - 1:40 pm:
We sound alike - I have that same "I'm stubborn and won't give up attitude" too. I always get the feeling if I keep working on this and get just a little more improvement each day, then one day it will be behind me. So many issues with horses go that way. Hopefully, we can get to that point without any further injury to our old, achy bodies. The reward seems worth the risk to me, at least right now.
This reminds me of something I posted here some time ago.
HorseAdvice.com » Member's Services » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » General Interest Stories and Discussions » Poem- I Love To Ride My Horse
|
Member:
muffi
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 31, 2008 - 3:34 am:
Jacque - I am gonna reiterate what every one else is saying with a twist. DO find a good trainer but do not leave your horse with them - GO TOGETHER. So you are sure that they are taking good care of your horse and that you are also learning the proper methods at the same time.
ALSO -Spend time on the ground with your horse in a safe environment - like his paddock area. Get him to learn to love you and respect you as alpha. Once they know you are alpha they will be more trusting and less likely to 'spook' out on you. I have been to the hospital too many times to mention - stupid but never gave up. so I spend a winter 'being' with my horse. he trusts me now after 4 years of ownership, and no longer bolts. I was on him the other day when a HUGE truck (gas delivery truck)came down our little dirt road to . He was petrified. he wanted to run so bad. he actually was Shivering. but I reached down talked softly to him and he just stood there - Bug Eyed at this monster coming down the road, but he trusted me.
I felt such joy at the end of that ride. it was like the beginning of a whole new relationship with Comet.
I took him to at least 10 different trainers before that. BUT.. What really turned the tide to me is the last trainer. I trailered him 45 minutes form the house with thoughts like you of leaving him there for a few months for training to settle him down some.
The guy said one thing to me that changed it all for me. He said that it was very obvious that the horse loved me.
Just that.
It gave me all the confidence I needed to take him home and Love him even more and to spend more and more time with him to gain his confidence. No 180 vertical jumps now for over 18 months! not only does he love me but he trusts me. we still nuzzle a lot in the paddock - every chance I get I hug and pet him.
I suggest you relax with your Mare some, gain her confidence on the ground then work with a professional in the saddle and in no time flat you will become her alpha - and she will trust you, and then become the best friend it looks like you want.
To Quote Mr Lyons, she will be your perfect horse.
|
Member:
jessam
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 31, 2008 - 6:17 am:
Wow Muffi, I would love to have what youve obtained. I do spend alot of time at the barn with her, but probably not enough "quality time". Yes, when I do find the right trainer, I will not leave her. I intend to watch and learn everything they do. Like Ive said before, I know its more my problem than hers. Im needing retraining too. You all have been a great inspiration for me. Thank you so much again.
|
Member:
muffi
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 31, 2008 - 7:11 pm:
Knowing all that i went through to get here - Your response actually send chills up my spine. Yes Jacque. you'll get there. Have faith, be consistant and enjoy your self. the more you relax the more she will.
and the most important revelation you will ever make you just did - You said you need retraining too. a couple of my "trainer' episodes were not for my horse but for me! I know I already had a perfect horse - I just needed to learn how to be a perfect Horse Person. Still working on that! But lovin it every step of the way!
|
Member:
terrido
|
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2008 - 1:13 pm:
I just wanted to 'ditto' what most everyone has said. Bolting will be a reaction, always. There are things you can do to mitigate the amount of thrust as it were.
First yes, absolutely get professional help, but both you and the horse go and learn together. Even if it is just ground work for 6 months to a year until you feel confident again, GO and learn and do.
I also highly, HIGHLY, recommend working diligently to establish a solid trusting relationship. Obviously using PNH (incorrectly) has not helped, in fact may have actually damaged the trust this horse has in you now. I do have a tried and true way to cement a solid bond, email me privately: terrie.douglas@sun.com for more info.
A good trainer can help you to regain your confidence when riding, and can help train the horse to respond more positively.
My Friesian actually bolted on me when I first got her. I hadn't had a bolting horse in over 0 years so it not only surprised me, it scared the heck outta me! (Bucking, yeah, but hadn't had a bolter) We went back to just longe lessons, me longing her, for about 4 months until I felt confident on our relationship to climb back on her. And then it was still on the line! I had maybe another month's worth of weekly longe lessons. Some of them were very scary, there was all sorts of outside stimuli going on. What we did was establish brakes. GO wasn't an issue, brakes were. Then once I solo'ed again, I had lots of brakes available, I had to learn to trust her enough to let go and allow her to move if she needed to. That took another month. So overall it was almost 7 months total until I felt confident enough to just get on her and ride alone, without my trainer being there to remind me, and having the extra presence seemed to help her remain better focused as well.
So go and work with someone that can help you both learn new responses.
And for goodness sakes when working with your horse be super consistent, that alone makes a huge difference. Otherwise all you do is confuse and frustrate them. Most horses will bolt due to pain, or plain frustration, and lastly out of fear. So if you pull on her mouth too much or too harshly, if you are too unbalanced, if you are too confusing, the only option she may have left is to try to run to escape.
Once she starts off you have three options. Try to slow and eventually stop her, just continue to ride it out and then ask her for more and more until she decides that's enough and she slows on her own, bail off.
My mare bolted on me once more just after I started riding her alone, it was during a lesson actually (luckily). She'd started to bolt and it took me a couple strides to react, I simply sat and asked her to slow up (half halted), she responded instantly and I had her stopped in like 5 or 6 strides. I never panic'd , I never felt unbalanced, I was focused on getting her stopped and trusted she would listen and respond favorably to me. She and I had established a pretty solid relationship during that retraining phase. That was almost two years ago now, and today I can ride her anywhere. Yup I still get afraid occasionally, but we trust each other, she will listen to me and I listen to her. I trust that she won't do anything (too) stupid to harm either of us, and I also now trust my ability to direct her energy when she's really UP, basically my ability to ride. And yes that's taken quite a while, but mostly it's our relationship I trust in. I know she won't do anything that will hurt me even when she is so afraid she has literally been shaking under me, cause we've been there and she's proven she listens to me. True it's not to say that we may run into something that is just too much, I try not to think about that though. LOL I have over faced her and over exposed her enough to know mostly what she will and will not do. And it's less action on her own the more time we share and work together. duh.
|
|
|
