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Discussion on Half Seat; Can You Explain How I do this?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 11, 2008 - 2:16 pm:
I am reading "Dressage in Lightness" by Sylvia Loch and she says to ride in the half seat to save a young or underconditioned, horses back. I thought this would be an easier thing to do than post, at least for me.
I have always rode western, still in a western saddle, but trying to improve and lighten my riding skills. Is this where I would roll my thighs, but keep my seat on the saddle somewhat? I have a picture but not an explanation, Loch refers to another book she put out for more details.
I can't believe I am saying this, but there may be some good reasons why an English saddle works better for riding gracefully!
Thanks in advance.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Aug 11, 2008 - 5:10 pm:
New term for me really, but I think I have the overall concept in mind. There are many ways to ride in a much lighter seat, I assume Sylvia is talking of one means here. Sorry I have not read her books, but I am studying dressage so thought I'd toss this out.
In most of dressage we ride in what would be termed a full seat; this is full contact with the saddle with your body and sitting upright. This gives you a deep seat.
In jumping/hunters there is a 'two-point' position where you are balancing on your legs only, fully out of the saddle, leaning well forward. This is the position you take the fence in basically.
So to my mind, what she refers to as a "half seat" should be somewhere in between these two places.
On a youngster you do want to stay off their backs as much as possible, and a two point position isn't good for helping them learn to balance themselves. You should stay "closer to the saddle" as it were to allow them better ability to balance as they move, especially like in a circle.
So this half seat would be again up out of the saddle for the most part, balancing yourself on your legs so your weight falls across the front of the saddle. Of course this would be uncomfy in a western with a horn, cause the horn may be in the way. I think it'd be ok to have your butt touch the saddle, as if posting, but keep your upper body leaning more forward.
A young horse's balance is all on the forehand anyway so placing your body in this type of position will keep your weight on their forehand, less chance to knock them off balance too this way. Besides when you place more weight into the forehand you have a bit better control of their relaxation and speeds. (until they learn to shift more carrying weight to the rear that is.)
I think the key here between this half seat position and a two point would be the amount you are out of the saddle and the amount you lean forward.
Not to confuse you or anything, but once you start to ride a bit more advanced there are other ways to lighten your seat and stay in full contact (as it were) with the saddle.
Ahhh you can still ride gracefully in a western saddle, trust me! haha No difference, well what I mean is the saddle style makes no difference. I ride the same no matter what the saddle is underneath me really. The 'cues' or aids may be different depending on how the horse has been trained, but mostly the basic riding (including aids) is the same regardless of the saddle style or trained discipline.
I am a dressage rider but I can get on a western trained horse and quickly have it moving more like a dressage horse. ;) I only do this so I have a comfy trot to ride cause most western trained ponies don't seem to use their rear leg joints much, producing a really jarring trot. I hate riding a jarring trot, so I simply and quickly ask them to bend more through their leg joints and give me a better place to sit on them. ;] I have watched reining competitions and they don't ride much differently than I do, or so it seems watching them and how their horses move. ;) So you can ride gracefully in anything. Trick is getting there. When you try something new it's always a bit ungainly as first. Just keep practicing, eventually it'll be smooth as silk for you. Happy riding!
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Member:
sryder11
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Posted on Monday, Aug 11, 2008 - 8:49 pm:
a previous dressage trainer of mine used to refer to the hunter-jumper two-point position as "the half seat"
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 7:33 am:
I found this from Sally Swift's "Centered Rding 2": "The half-seat, also known as the two point or jumping seat and ridden in a forward angle position. Here, your weight is balanced over your stirrups with your seat bones not touching the saddle at all. It is a strong adjustable seat, used in the trot and canter, efficient for cross-country riding and very useful when working with a young horse who is not yet strong enough to carry a rider's full weight directly on its back"
So, Angie, you will want to balance in your stirrups, keeping the angle in your knee and your weight over your heels. Lift fully out of the saddle and keeping your shoulders square and back, close the hip angle, as if you were approaching a fence to go over. Make sure you keep your head up...it's easy to look down at the horse and tip your balance forward. To start, I would recommend you grab a handful of mane to help with your balance so that you aren't snatching your horse in the mouth with the reins. Doing this at the walk, trot and canter is a great way to develop a strong leg.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 7:55 am:
When Hank was young the trainer was always telling me to ride him in the "2 point" to stay off his back. Let me tell you in a western saddle it's much harder! I couldn't do it. So the trainer, (who is one of the best riders I have ever seen.) had me get off to show me what he meant. He had a VERY hard time in my western saddle also, he said between the horn and the way the stirrups are set, it just isn't set up well to do the "2 point"....I have no problems in an english saddle. A western saddle tends to throw your weight back. It's possible, but much harder IME.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 8:25 am:
Thanks everyone!
My main saddle is a treeless western, and it won't be hard to ride the half seat, not sure if I can do it in the treed saddle though. The treeless is flat in the seat, not built up, and the stirrups are not set forward. (Personally, my thoughts on English saddles, the stirrups are too far forward!) My pommel is small and rounded also.
Fran,
I like Sally's explanation, I don't have her 2nd book, wonder if it's in her first one? Not getting ready to jump here though!
Somewheres I read something about the tail bone being off the saddle? What is my pelvis doing here? If I stand up in balance, then basically lower myself to the point of almost touching the saddle, would I be doing this right? But need to slightly lean forward from the hips, is that what opening the hip angle means?
Sometimes doing what is correct is easier than trying to dessict it, explain it step by step, ya know?
I did search out some more books on Amazon, I NEED to know these details!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 9:15 am:
Angie, if my scanner was working, I'd scan in the picture that came along with the text so you'd have a clearer picture. Unfortunately, I can't do it. Answering your questions: yes, the seat is completely out of the saddle (but you don't want to over exaggerate and stand straight up with tons of space between your seat bones and the saddle). If you stand up (keeping an angle in your knee) and then lower yourself down so that your seat bones are almost but not quite touching, your should be about right. The problem is that it's easy for the leg to swing back, so be careful to keep it under you. Leaning slightly forward from the hips is actually closing the hip angle.
Do you have a fax #, Angie? If so, send me an email & I will fax over the picture...that, at least, is working.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 10:00 am:
Angie,
This video has some excellent examples of two-point. Besides, it's a really cool video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIYhTyut8eE
If you get Oxygen on your satellite TV, the Olympic eventing competition has good examples too.
Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 11:01 am:
Diane, many of the newer western saddles have a more balanced seat and don't throw your weight back as much. When riding in a show, espcially in an equitation class, you are supposed to be up on your "seat bones" and not "back on your pockets." You are supposed to be balanced just like in Sally Swift's book, which is basically a classic dressage seat with ears, shoulders, elbows and heals all aligned.
"Half seat" or "two point seat" will sure give you good legs practiced correctly!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 11:32 am:
Yeah, Angie, half-seat is two point. It is a lot easier to maintain in an English saddle.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 11:59 am:
Two-Point or Half Seat – How To:
Angie, first most english saddles wouldn't place your leg too far forward IF they fit your leg. ;] But most western saddles do shove your feet more forward and place you in a chair seated position. Some 'style' of western saddles have the stirrups hang down directly below where you sit, giving you a much straighter leg position, well it helps you keep your feet under your hips. Like a barrel saddle, cutter, etc. the seem to be designed more for being in the stirrups than the seat. So for you, use your treeless while you practice this half-seat.
How to do this?? Now that's a good question, how to explain to someone that hasn't done it how to accomplish this?? I can vividly recall my first attempts! Can we say candidate for funniest videos grand prize??
First, no offense here, I want to explain the joint angles, because this is where your balance will come from in this position.
Ankle, knee and hip joints need to be loose and flexible!! They need to open and close. Ok, so this sounds easy, but trust me in the saddle the first few times it's NOT so simple.
The only way you can ride the horse's movement and keep your balance "hovering over the saddle" is to have flexible and loose leg joints. All these joints have to open and close with the horse's movement so that your upper body can remain still and balanced. The HIP has to open (stand up more) and close (sit down more); the KNEE has to open (straighten your leg more) and close (bend your leg more); the ANKLE has to open (point your toes downward more) and close (point your heel down, bring your toes up more). Make sense?
oK, so, get up out of your chair now and stand up. Standing straight most of your joints are in the open position, ankle resting but holding your leg in position, it's kinda in between being fully open or fully closed. Hip is open, knee is open.
Now push your bumm out behind you and allow your hip, knee and ankle to close more until you are squatting a little. Your upper body has to bend forward slightly as your legs bend thru your joints more - correct??
Basically this is the position you assume and 'hover over the saddle' in. ;) Not so hard standing there is it??
OK, so now bend your leg joints even more so you lower yourself maybe two to three inches only, then come back up to your starting point.
Pay attention to your leg joints and the amount they open and close, FEEL them opening and closing. In order for you to move yourself this way you have to maintain a certain amount of muscle tension in your legs. Right?? OK, so imagine being able to "squat" up and down this way and keep all your muscles relaxed and loose, more like jello. ;] THIS would be your half-seat or a full two-point.
Now in the saddle, while horse is standing still, try the basic position. Rise up and get into your little "squat" position stick your bumm out a bit behind you, bend forward a bit at your waist, bend in your hips, knees and ankles (close these joints). Ideally you want to be just over the saddle only a few inches at most. Your weight is being supported only through your legs, while you balance your whole body over them your upper body will have to find a good "balance" point.
Someone suggested grabbing mane, I have a better means. ;) make small fists (you don't wear rings do you??) and place the flat knuckles part of both fists along the horse's neck, one on either side of the whithers/neck area in front of you. (ok, maybe 4 to 6 inches in front of saddle roughly) USE this to help you maintain your upper body balance. The beauty of this is you can help keep yourself up and 'still' from waist to head AND you can use this to fix a rein length, so if you do canter you have more control of the stride length, etc. On a neck reined or curb bitted (single piece, straighter) headstall/horse hold reins as you normally would in one hand, but make that fist and place your fists (closed hands) on both sides of the horse's neck. You will give up some direction control for a while this way, obviously. ;]
Ok, so now you should have an idea of the basic position. Next is the riding and the feel. It is the easiest to learn this position at trot, hardest at walk until you have really string legs and core muscles.
As the horse trots you will feel (hopefully) your legs being moved up and down one side at a time, as the rear feet hit the ground and come up for the next stride. What you want to do is remain loose thru your legs enough to absorb the movement of the horse's body, become shock absorbers, so your upper body can remain as still as possible. Your joints will bend more (close) and open - rapidly - to move with the horse.
Breaking this movement down a bit to help...
Horse's rear leg travels forward pushing your leg on that side more forward a bit, as the foot touches ground the horse's body straightens a bit, your leg will also straighten a bit. You have a 'downward' feeling in your leg overall. As the leg travels to the full rising position you are again pushed more upward, your leg will feel like it should "come up" at this point though you allow MORE BEND in your joints so the movement doesn't push you up higher than you already are.
Basically your legs move alot in a fully relaxed way, make them kinda like jello and let them flop! haha Ok, so you have to maintain just enough tension thru them to hold you up, but must also be loose enough to allow them to absorb the horse's movement to help you keep the position.
For me this was the absolute hardest part to "get". I was SO stiff and tense in all my joints I had a heck of a time learning to let them go enough to begin to feel the movement let alone work with it to balance.
if you are all tense and stiff you cannot balance!! you have to relax your legs enough to work, then you can balance.
Make sense? Now go out and try it. If you have any questions, ask! You can always email me: terriedouglas@hughes.net
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 12:43 pm:
Terre, GREAT Lesson!! It makes me want to run out and practice. You're very good at discribing, step by step, what you do.
Diane, I want pictures!! 
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 2:07 pm:
Sara, Angie is the one who needs to take pictures, I had my tutorial on it about 6 years ago. Terrie did explain it well,but it is easier said then done IME.(maybe it's just me) It took me along time in the western saddle. In an english saddle...not so long, but long enuff .
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 2:16 pm:
In for lunch, have to head back out to take pictures of Little Miss Swayback, see about getting a pad made for her.
'Nways, um, Linda, the video was great, but all those spills. Maybe I'd be better off with my whole seat staying in the saddle?
Terrie,
Fantastic written lesson! Thanks for taking the time to type all that up. My printer is on the fritz (any know why a printer prints every few lines all smudged, the rest is fine?)but I'll copy and send it to my hubby at work and ask him to print it out for me.
(It might be hard to read notes and ride at the same time though, any one know where I can get one of those book holders that mount on the front of the saddle? LOL! )
I bet I end up looking like a Moscovy Duck at first, lol!! I'll practice on Cody tonight, he's the easiest to ride. Sounds like good exercise for me too!
Thanks everyone.
And yes, my stirrups in the treeless are pretty much under me; but when I try riding in the Wintec Aussie, I struggle with the stirrup placement and just don't get why the stirrups are attached to the saddle why up towards the front!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 2:24 pm:
If I do a video, you can all hear my knees and ankle joints crack and pop!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 2:26 pm:
P.S., hmmmmm....maybe posting isn't the harder thing to do after all, giggle grin. Back when staying in the saddle was all I cared about, just standing up, one hand on the horn, worked pretty darn good too.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 5:42 pm:
It is so much easier said than done! haha And it's one thing to read the concepts and steps, quite another to DO them. It does help if you have eyes on ground, begin with someone else controlling the horse, or ride where you can not worry about directional control possibly. I know for many that's a huge luxury! But will help the progression.
This is actually good for me too Angie because I am in process of teaching a young woman how to ride. Interestingly we had just begun to touch on two point position in preparation to learn rising (posting) trot end of last week. So I had begun to write this up to help her better understand her body mechanics. You just helped me complete it quicker, so thank YOU for that.
Begin on the ground, read the steps and try to work your body, Go ahead look like a duck! haha Actually you want to hold your back straight as you bend forward, your bumm will stick out,but don't go sway backed in the process, nor round your back either. (Easy concept for a dancer!) You want to have a straight line from your bumm to your shoulders if someone were to lay a stick on your back it should lie straight and touch everywhere, if that visual helps?
I gave her some 'exercises' she can do to help her body build the strength needed to be able balance.
Tummy crunches (builds core)
Squats (builds legs and allows joints to flex)
Lunges (again builds leg strength, but open hips!)
Calf stretches (loosens ankles) This is where you stand with ball of foot on step and allow heels to sink below step.
The first challenge for you, should you accept this one *wink*, is to relax everything enough to move. See this is where I truly wish I had a simulator to work with!! Ok, so you get yourself into that half squat position where your bumm is hovering over the saddle, now what??
Well what is riding?? Riding is all about feel and balance. It's a constant re-balancing act really. And in order to balance you have to feel your body and the horse's movement. If you are tense you cannot feel the horse. If you are tense you cannot move freely, (neither can your horse) and if you are tense it is vastly more difficult to find that balance up there.
Vicious circle, our bodies will naturally tense in fear of coming off, but actually to stick you have to relax and become a west rag on the horse. So. If you clamp your legs on the horse to get your self up out of the saddle you will not be able to balance well, cause you won't be able to move anything freely. See where this goes??
It's hardest to stay in 2PT at walk. Even harder at halt! So start there. *evil grin* Always begin something new on a horse at halt, then progress to walk, then trot, etc. So horse is standing, get your bumm up off that saddle, lean your weight into your hands now pushed into each side of the horse's neck, find your balance so you don't have to lean.
Arch your back and then round it, FEEL your back position, get it straight, ok, try to get it as straight as you can feel it anyway. Now bend more forward without changing anything below your pelvis.... Ahh you SHOULD lose your balance and fall more forward onto the horse's neck. Good! Now staying in your squat position bring your shoulders more up, as if you were straightening yourself from the squat position, and then go back to your squat again.
The objective here is to help you learn where your upper body is, what it FEELS like when it is more correct, and when you are better balanced. Make sense??
From here you start on your legs. Bend more in all your leg joints until you are really squatting and barely touching the saddle. then open the joints angles so you are not squatting as much, maybe back to where you began. Do this a few times to get the feel of your body. Not easy is it?? ;)
Now the tricky part - one leg at a time take your leg OFF the horse, put that super bend into all the joints; your weight point is the stirrup across the ball of your foot. Keep this weight spot, allowing your heel to DrOp as your ankle bends more...
So as you do this one leg at a time, your body weight will shift more to that side at halt. so careful, we don't want the horse moving. haha Do this just enough to get the feel of your leg joints opening and closing, get the feel of your heel sinking and coming back up, etc. with your body remaining balanced and in that squat position, bumm above the saddle.
Ok, so that takes loads of muscle control!! haha And you may not be able to do it, you will probably quickly fall back into the saddle, losing your balance all together. That's ok!!! At halt this all you, you aren't getting any help at all from the horse. Once you can do this and mostly stay 'up' a few times, one leg then the other, you're ready to ask the horse to walk on and try same thing again, now while horse is walking.
So again, we're still at halt. Do one leg, off the horse, bend all the joints, feel your heel sink a bit and come back up a bit as you go 'up and down' in your squat. As you open your leg joints and your heel comes back up a bit, ease your leg to the horse and try again with your leg barely touching the horse.
Do one leg until you can do this kinda ok. When you can begin to feel what your leg is doing, etc. it's time to do the other leg. Same progression, just do the other leg.
Back to the first leg. haha Pick your leg apart and break it into smaller chunks to concentrate on, work on.
Start at the bottom, the foot and ankle. As you bend more what do you feel your ankle doing?? Is it moving at all? How is it moving? Is it bending so your toes feel they are coming up and your heel sinking down more? Is your heel feeling like it is coming up? What is happening with your foot as your ankle 'bends'???
If you feel your heel come up, you are standing on your toes, not relaxing down thru your ankle to your heel. Basically you are gripping with leg, so take your leg OFF the horse. Stand on the stirrup, now bend.... keep standing and then bending until you can feel your heels sink and rise. Sink on the bend, rise on the straighten. RELAX. Every time you bend think “relax, let go....” Trust me, at first it will feel like your heels have gone to the center of the earth and your foot physically in the stirrup will look just flat along the bottom of your foot. That's ok, it's a feeling we're after here. I want you to work until you can feel what your ankle and foot are doing, how tense? How loose? How flexible? At what point is it easiest to move it? That's where you are going, that's your goal. To feel when it's the easiest to move it - allow it to move and be moved!
Once you have conquered your ankle and you can feel what it is doing well enough to know when it's relaxed and flexible, do this same thing on your knee. Bend your knee, straighten it. Off the horse, on the horse. Tense? Easy to move? When is it easiest to move it?
Last your hip. This one's not as loose really because you are holding yourself in position, yet it also has to open and close, must be flexible enough to do this AND hold you up in your squat position. Haha! Good luck there. Will take some time to build strength and flexibility if you don't have it. Anyway same thing here, you want to be able to feel what's happening in this part of your body, feel it when it's more open, when it's more closed. And when it's easiest to move it and allow it to be moved.
One leg at a time, break it down into the parts and work the parts. Even sit down on the horse, take your leg fully off the horse, foot out of the stirrup if need be, and shake it all over! Let it look like a leg of jello, literally, then bring it back to the horse. Find full relaxation all the way to your toes – somehow. It will feel different when sitting on a horse, verses sitting in a chair. But you can learn to feel how tense you are through your body sitting watching TV.
Once you have feel of your leg pieces, and eventually your entire leg, etc. you will be ready to head out in a two point at trot and have some success riding it. Your upper body remains 'still' and in the same position, your legs will allow the horse's movement up and down, side-to-side. Granted most of the movement will be between knees and toes, but the hip plays a role too.
As you ask the horse to trot, just kind of let your lower legs bounce up and down with the horse as it moves. If you have your knees and lower legs clamped on the horse you can't really do this. So let go of the horse with your legs, stand in the stirrups and let your legs literally bounce up and down, allow the joints to bend, close and open(rapidly now that we're trotting). Weight goes where your foot touches the stirrup, and if you need to lean into your hands on the horse's neck to help hold yourself up in that squatting position. Keep your weight into your foot but allow everything to flex and be loose.
Yup not easy to do at first. Just keep at it, and if you can find someone to help you on the ground, ask them to work with you a bit. Even better if they can longe the horse while you work on you only. It takes time to learn, it takes time for your body to learn and your muscles to build strength. The only real way to build 'riding muscles' is to ride, unfortunately.
Once you have the idea of the feel and can mostly ride a 2pt “ok”, allow your leg to hug the horse enough to help you stabilize a little better. Your knee will become a pivot point, you can ride with knees on the saddle basically, and still stay loose enough to move with the horse's movement.
Riding is just feel and balance. It's all feel and balance. The more aware you are of your own body and what it's doing, how tense it is, etc. the more control you have over your body, etc. the better you will ride. The more you can relax the more you will feel the horse under you. You can ride without being able to feel very well what the horse is doing, but you'll just mostly be a passenger... when you ask the horse to do something it's timing, and that only comes from feel. ;)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 6:40 pm:
Terrie I got wore out reading that, but yes that is just about exactly how the trainer taught me. AND YES doing it at the halt is very hard at first...I just teetered back and forth. Good Luck Angie
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2008 - 9:49 pm:
Just got in from riding; first the good news:
Cody says "Thank you HA horse moms/instructors, this was the easiest ever training session! Don't know what was with my mom tonight, she was flopping all over but all I had to do was walk around the perimeter of the arena mostly, with a few trotting steps thrown in. She made me walk real quick again after each trotting attempt though, think she was falling off?!"
O.K. Terrie,
that was HARD. My right knee seems to have a brain of it's own, and I know my brain isn't connected to the rest of my body parts! And I felt like I was squeezing the saddle with my inner thighs for some weird reason? And my legs are supposed to be doing what? Holy Wah, I hadn't read your second post before riding.
I felt twisted too, so I'll see if my daughter will watch tomorrow and at least tell me if she sees a "duck butt" or DrOpped shoulders, hips, I think she'll be able to see even or uneven.
At least Cody is great with holding a steady walk, or trot for that matter. I got a nice surprise tonight when I found I could turn him without reins really well the while I was practicing this half butt, er, um, half SEAT stuff, lol! I also found out he stops when I grab his mane, oops! So I found my fingers on the edge of the saddle pad a few times.
Terrie,
Do you teach the 2 point before teaching posting?
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 13, 2008 - 12:15 am:
Ha who ever said 'learning to ride is easy'? no one I know! Riding is not "easy" either. ;] If it were super easy everyone would probably do it, eh?? hahaha
Yes I use 2PT prior to posting, because it helps to understand how you move and how the horse moves, helps you learn what it feels like. It's a very easy transition from a 2pt position to "sit a beat". This is the beginning of posting or rising trot.
Once you know how to relax your muscles and joints and let them move loosely, then yes your thighs actually will stay on the saddle, this will be a 'weight spot' as it were to hold you up. Next phase would be to do this sans stirrups. Ok, maybe not. (I haven't ridden this way without stirrups in like forever, might be time for me to have a few work sessions with out them again too.)
The objective in rising trot is to be able to hold yourself 'up' out of the saddle and lightly touch your bumm back to it. You allow the horse to push you up out. Course having a horse with a huge trot helps with this much better than a horse with a flat trot. Wanna come ride my friesian for a few lessons??? She's got a wonderfully large trot, even though her back moves very little. Again even for her it's all in the bending of the leg joints!
So, keep practicing and you'll be doing your half seat like a pro in no time. Have fun, happy riding!!
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