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Discussion on New Horse, okay, now I have questions...
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Member:
beckyo
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 2:14 am:
Earlier this week I posted a thread in the lounge on our new boy. (he still has no name).
We purchased him from a reputable horse trader (I know that sounds like an oxymoron). Which basically means, if this man says the horse is child safe, it is, but there is no guarantee he has no other problems.
He's been ridden by a member of the family almost every day this week, including my 6 and 7 year olds.
But starting the first day we encountered several problems. 1. he has no desire to be caught, we were told this would be an issue when we bought him. 2. When I brought the brush up to brush his neck, he flinched. I thought I might have imagined it, but no, he's done it everytime we start to groom him. I've been talking to him softly while I do it, telling him what a good boy he is. As I groomed, I noticed something I had not seen before, he has scars all over his hind end. 3. He refuses the bit, even when you do the finger through the side of the mouth trick. I immediately stopped trying to force the bit, and started talking to him. After a few minutes, he relaxed and I tried again. He refused at first then accepted the bit. 4. When you first get on him, he wants to go really fast, when you try to bring him back, he shakes his head and pulls back at the reins.
I have a couple of theories here. I think whoever had him before was very rough with him. I do know they tried to used him as a team penning horse, but got mad because he wouldn't go fast enough. Could this explain why he wants to start of quickly every time? He has obviously been hit. As soon as a hand approaches his head, he flinches. I'm sure we can remedy this with patience and time. I am wondering about the bridling problem. He will be trailered to the vet tomorrow for a coggins, (he is currently at a friends, and can't come to the place I board until we have this). I am thinking we should have the vet check his teeth. The bit may be uncomfortable in his mouth. If that is not the problem, I was thinking maybe we could try riding him in a bosal. This would be fine for my husband and I, but I prefer the children ride with a bit.
My current game plan is to wait until he is moved (should be the end of this week).
The kids go back to school next week which will give me more time to work with him. I think maybe lots of quiet work. The first battle will be teaching him to come to me. I do not relish the idea of trying to chase him down in a 20 acre pasture. Lots of love and gentle grooming. Riding quietly, at not more than a walk or light jog. Any suggestions? I am so used to my other horse, who runs to the gate whinnying as soon as I turn in the driveway. I've not had to deal with this before.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 4:27 am:
About the difficult to catch: My own horses all come when called, until now I've mingled a few new ones in between with a history of 'needing a few persons to catch'. I always ignore them the first few weeks call my own at dinnertime feed them and let them go again[or in Holland stabled them and left the one who didn't want to come in the field] It never took more then a week before the new one was folowing and asking for dinner too.
As soon as he/ she was used to that regime I started to groom him/her too,[halter on and in box] but always let the new one go first. Within a month they usually come when called though it may take a little more time before you can get them in the field without a problem when you need only THAT horse.
Hope this helps
Jos
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 7:15 am:
When I had The difficult to catch horse (and still do this to the ones I have now)
Mix it up. When you do catch him don't ride him everytime. Catch him, take out to graze in the yard, groom, give a treat and let him go. Do this until you can catch him. Then start throwing a small relaxing ride in, but don't ride everytime you catch him. I had a mare that was used hard before I got her...she was a nightmare to catch!!!
"rode hard and put away wet"
This routine worked VERY well, but also took a lot of patience. Especially to catch her in the first place...to baby her. She also was hard to bridle. Patience again!! Usually when they are tugging at the reins and hard to bit, it is because they have been, "snagged" in the mouth one too many times.
He is in a new enviroment, give him time to settle in, relax, and just be a horse . On a good note that mare turned out to be one of my best riding horses, but we had to go back to basics...she was very well trained, just needed to learn to trust again.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 8:36 am:
It might take 6 months or more for him to get to know you all, and trust you. I'd just continue to be gentle and kind to him, always moving & speaking quietly. I know it's hard when you want to ride him, but you don't really know this horse and it's much safer to take your time with him.
I've seen some of the cowboy wannabes for team roping, and sorting, that kind of thing, and some of them shouldn't be allowed near any horse! It's all about speed and winning, no concern if the horse has been trained to do that kind of thing, or conditioned for it.
As for the catching, ignore him, go about your business, love up on the other horses if he's in with a some, and let him approach you. And then, don't hurry up and reach out to pet him, let him dictate how close he's comfortable being to you.
After an initial "try before I buy ride" I don't ever hurry to ride a new horse once he's home here. I don't know anything about him, and you never know what will set a horse off.
On the other side of the coin, once I have horses, I hate to part with them, because I DO KNOW THEM, and I hate the starting over...I always figure I know their problems, and don't want the surprises I might find with a new horse!
BTW, we have bought a few horses from a horse dealer, and have had better luck than with from private owners. If the place is kept up, the horses well cared for, most times I find the people to be honest and also willing to work with you to find the right horse. We bought 3 at one time last time we visited a dealer, and no regrets!
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 12:03 pm:
Mark Rashid has an excellent DVD for teaching how to work with a horse that has been labeled "hard to catch". Interestingly enough, in both the test horses, he found other issues that made them shy of people.
The technique, briefly, is to put the horse in a fairly small pen (a round pen or paddock - best to be not more than 50 feet in diameter). Instead of approaching the horse's head or shoulder, approach him, slowly, quietly, from behind (from a safe distance!). He will most likely begin to walk away. If he doesn't walk away, just stop and wait. If he does move away, match his pace, softly, slowly walking. If he trots, just walk. If he slows, you slow to maintain that safe distance. If he goes faster, you can still walk, you'll catch up. The key here is to be non-pressuring, just following. You should never attempt to close the distance between you and the horse. The goal is to teach the horse that it is safe for him to come to you.
If you stay soft, and nonthreatening, inevitably a horse in this situation will turn toward you or just look back at you. As soon as he does, just stop and wait patiently. They may start moving away again, and then you follow. But as long as he's looking at you, just wait.
Once he turns toward you, or if he starts to reach his nose toward you, take a small step back. If he approaches, let him, but while he is approaching, back away with less speed than he is using to approach you (assuming he is walking). Eventually he will close the distance. When he does, walk away. And then repeat the process.
Any time he gets worried and starts walking away agin, just again quietly follow from behind.
The trick is to let them move toward you, not you toward them.
Once you've mastered this in the smallest area you have, move on to a larger pen, a corral. And eventually to the pasture.
It does take time to break this habit, and again, you may find that there is some other issue for this horse. He may be shy about one side versus the other for example. Just be patient and gentle, and eventually that will be the best thing for him to trust you; while also taking an active role in teaching him to come to you.
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 1:35 pm:
ok - I KNOW I am gonna get a lot of flack for this but it worked for me.
When you come to see him bring a treat - A small carrot, sugar cube not a big treat just a small one. then slowly and gently caress him lightly - but not so light that you tickle him.
do this till he walks away and leave it.
When you scoop Poop - if he comes over to check you out - have a treat for him. pet or pat him gently then move on with your business.
Both my horses always come straight to me at the fence every time I am near. and I don't always have treats now. and I get a lot of nuzzel-ing and just wanting to be near me.
As for the bit. Our Arab gelding was that way -what a pain indeed. Arab Head tossing very very touchy head/nose when we first got him. but in less then 3 weeks we had him reaching for the bit. Yes reaching with his mouth open. how? yea a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down!!! (go on sing it with me I know you all know that song) Yes a treat in the hand that holds the bit - one that is Sniffy that you know he likes - let him sniff it so he knows the bit comes with a treat. it works, for me at least and I have two very nice polite boys that come up and open their mouths for the bit.
give it a try - sounds like fun...
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Member:
beckyo
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 2:06 pm:
When we move him over to the place we board this week, he will go in a round pen in the middle of the pasture for the first 2 or 3 days. I'm thinking of bringing a few treats out and just sitting on the side, not trying to catch him at all. I figure I'll just hang out and see if his curiosity gets the better of him. If he comes over, he'll get some love and a treat.
Muffi - I'll try your trick. A Spoon full of sugar indeed! That's how I get my son to eat his veggies, I sprinkle them with a spoon full of sugar! Only makes sense to try it on the 4-legged children!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 2:07 pm:
Muffy, no flack from me. With a shy horse like this I think treats may just be the thing. Just watch for any signs signs of "mugging" you.
A smaller paddock would be the best thing until you get him friendlier. Use Karin's excellent suggestions and always halter him before you feed. He'll be sticking his nose in the halter in no time, hopefully.
Also, check out Dr. Cook's Bitless Bridle. There has been much discussion here on it. Some love it, some not so much...I happen to love it. The brakes work as well as a bit for my horses, and if your horse has bit issues, that could be one reason for the rushing. He could be fearful of the bit. My older horse is much calmer bitless. She is an American Saddlebred who came with a very long-shanked bit. She's great in a snaffle, but better bitless.
Good luck with your new horse.
Erika
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Member:
beckyo
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 6:44 pm:
Thanks Erika, I'll check that out!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 6:59 am:
No flack from me Muffi, I can't think of a stronger bond with a horse than that created by feeding.
The trick is to not use the food to "bribe the horse" to come to you. Think of it from the horse's point of view: "If I resist coming I get offered treats". Don't get me wront we have all set out a bucket of feed to catch a difficult horse but this can become a downward spiral leading to real catching problems. On the other hand the person who carries treats around in their pocket will be the most popular person in the barnyard. Be forewarned, if you do not manage this properly, a begging horse can be a real PIA too.
DrO
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 7:42 am:
No flack from me either. When I first bought my mare, it took a while to bond with her. She was naughty in a "passive" way, if that makes any sense. An example of that was that she would not open her mouth for the bit, either...for me only. It was if she was thinking, "I don't know you, you haven't earned my respect, so I will stand here quietly and open my mouth only when I decide to". I started with offering a peppermint in the hand that held the bit and when the bit was in and adjusted, then she got that peppermint. I no longer need that peppermint, but it has become a habit and I do get reproachful looks if I run out of them. But as soon as I approach with the bridle, her mouth opens and she takes in the bit and then waits patiently for the treat.
While I treat her frequently, I am very firm about not getting mugged. It only took an elbow or two into the chest to back her off when we first got to know each other and she now knows to wait patiently for what is coming.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 7:58 am:
I use honey on the bit and on about everything else I want to go down[dip the dewormer in it fi] just because honey sticks so nice![to everything including me]
Jos
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 8:08 am:
Don't you think the treat thing depends on the horse? I have ran into horses that turn into pushy pigs and ones that stand there nicely waiting.
At night I give mine a licorice treats when I take their masks off, that way when they see me they come running and lazy me don't have to go in the pasture. The 2 older one are very polite, and then there is Hank! He is polite now, but we had to have a "chat" about it. So if it is within your skills to keep the "pushy pigs" from mobbing you, treats are wonderful, otherwise I have seen "green owners" become very scared of the "pushy pig" and treats were a BIG downfall.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 8:21 am:
Ofcourse you are completely right Diane, but I do prefer the 'pig chat' over running after them, lazy me just like you
Jos
PS mine always get to the pigside after a while so I keep from time to time repeating the chat!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 8:25 am:
"Pig chat" Perfect name!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 10:34 am:
Diane,
I think the secret is to vary what is a treat, and how often you actually have something. I love giving my horses carrots or apples, but not every time. So if they come see me, and I am empty handed, they still get some rubbing in their favorite itchy spots, if not, no biggy, they loose interest and wander off.
If anyone gets pushy, I just carry a riding crop with me and tell them to back off.
Personally, I don't see the big deal with giving horses treats or hand feeding them. I know some are dead set against it, but I've never had a problem unless the horse was nippy to begin with, then I wouldn't hand feed.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 12:13 pm:
All mine have gotten treats from the beginning and I've use them to train All the time. I don't just hand out treats but ask for something in return. All mine understand if I say no this is Ellies then they can't push in or I put them all on "stay" then ask for each by name if the wrong one steps forward no treat.The only PIA has been Whiskey so he gets to do lots of backing up before treats!
Becky, with his scars there are the ugly memories of how they got there with love and time he will give his trust completly.Rashid is a wonderful recommendations. Love new horse projects have fun!
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 12:26 pm:
There's an additional piece to this, in my opinion, that involves some hard work the first few times but really pays off in the long run. Although 20 acres is a large area, if you're reasonably fit, you can teach him that he WILL be caught...by not giving up. The thing is that as long as he's evading you, you must keep him moving.
In fact, this is a great opportunity to learn how your body language affects a horse. For instance when he starts running from you, you don't start running after him...you follow him from a distance tracking his general direction but taking the shortest path. It's kinda like working in a round pen where you influence them from the center of the circle. Hope I'm making sense! With practice, you'll learn how to stop him, make him turn in a particular direction, and get him paying attention to you (as signalled by his ears being trained on you). You'll get a feel for it. Whenever you sense that he's thinking about stopping and turning to you, you stop and let him think it through. So, it's not just running the heck out of him...there should be communication happening.
No way to avoid having to walk/run a great deal at the beginning, but I promise you if you stay calm and keep at it, he will eventually realize that you aren't giving up and that he's just making work for himself. After a few times, they usually submit to you walking up and haltering them.
Once you have halter on him, then give him strokes and treats. Don't give it to him beforehand...he'll learn that he can get the treat, then run away.
How do I know all this? My first horse was the worst I've ever seen at evading being caught. I was a beginner, but learned that if I was persistent and consistent, he would submit. It helped that once I caught him, I'd often simply groom and feed him so that he realized it wasn't always about work.
Be prepared for this to take a lot of time at first. I think I heard somewhere that humans usually give up within 20-30 minutes. So, many horses learn that if they resist for at least 20 minutes, they'll get away with it. It may take your gelding that long to realize you're not a pushover.
Key is to stick with it, not get mad or emotional, just keep calmly tracking him. Carry yourself in a calm assertive stance with shoulders back. He'll come around! BTW, this approach works even when there are other horses around egging him on. Just focus on him and ignore them. I've actually seen other problem horses learn to be caught by observing me with my horses. Very cool!
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 12:35 pm:
Oh, I have one other trick that has worked with a few horses who are quite people-oriented and have great curiosity. I'd turn my back to them and start messing around with something on the ground. One of my horses just couldn't STAND not knowing what I was doing. Pretty soon, I'd feel his breath on my neck and could stand up and put a halter on him. This won't work on many horses; this gelding was exceptionally social and smart.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 2:16 pm:
Sharon, your "get them curious" trick has always worked for me, especially for the young horses. I'd carry a piece of baling hidden in my hand and have the halter looped over my shoulder where I could reach it quickly. If I got their interest, feet a cookie or carrot, and slip the lead rope or twine around their neck then put the halter on while holding them with the lead or twine. Horse can't stand it; their curiosity will get them every time, but it will take some patience.
Btw, I had this same trick work with some deer when I was a teenager. We had deer come up in the yard a lot where we lived. I went out early one a.m. while they were grazing. They scampered off into the edge of the woods. I sat down and started picking at the grass, not looking in their direction. Like horses, they couldn't stand it and cautiously worked their way closer and closer. After a while they were grazing right next to me, sniffing my hair, etc. They only ran off when I stood up.
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Member:
beckyo
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 3:22 pm:
Sharon I remember doing that once at the place I took lessons. I watched the working students chase this pony around the pasture for about 20 minutes. I finally told them to come out. I took the halter and lead rope from them, stuffed it down the back of my pants and pulled my shirt over it so the pony couldn't see. I walked into the middle of the pasture and turned my back the pony and just stood there. It didn't take five minutes before the pony walked up to me and laid his head over my shoulder. I looped the lead rope around his neck and put the halter on. The students who had been chasing this pony down every day for weeks were amazed.
Unfortunately, the new (still nameless) horse doesn't fall for it. I think he's laughing at us!
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 10:25 pm:
Lately my horse has been hard to catch, due to mares being moved into his pasture. I thought I was his best girl, but how quickly I have been replaced! Now he wants to stay with his two mares and not go off with me.
I've been using this doggedly patient persistent method that Sharon describes. I keep his feet moving, never letting him graze, but trying to keep my feet as still as possible. I don't chase him, I just keep moving toward him whenever he does not look at me. I stop and hold my ground when he does look. I am trying to imitate the boss horse that often moves the others around and takes the piece of ground they were grazing on. I always succeed in catching him this way.
However, I wonder if it would work in BeckySJO's situation. My horse is just going through silly stuff, but her horse has not yet earned her trust nor has he joined up with her as part of his herd. These issues take more time and a lot of patience.
Two years ago, my horse and I had a wreck and it left both of us with no trust of each other. My horse ran away from me in the pasture shortly after the accident, as if I were made of lightening. That's how un-trusting he was of me. Food treats did work as a starting place, but we had to build the trust one step at a time. At first, I just went out to the pasture and got him to come near me, then gave him the treat and left. Gradually, I stayed next to him stroking him and letting him know I was OK. Then we went through a whole period of haltering and taking the halter off and me leaving. Pressure and release, a little at a time. Finally, we haltered and walked to the barn, then I put him in his stall. I took my time, but in the end we learned to trust each other again. Use food but don't rely on it. Horses place safety above food on their hierarchy of needs.
Once he allows himself to be caught easily, then spend as much time with him as possible and teach him to be respectful of you. Horses like to have a leader, especially when they are uncertain. Teach him some things like yielding his hindquarters or backing on the lead so you can praise him for doing them right. Ground work is a good place to start. If you think he may have been abused in the past and that is why he behaves this way, I would not give that any thought in future training. Horses in the pasture won't care about his past. Expect him to behave himself and praise him when he does right. Build respect and you will continue to build that trust.
Good luck,
Linda
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 - 7:13 am:
I don't believe it depends on the horse: all horses have the potential of becoming pushy and all horses have the potential to become good citizens. It depends on the handler. Some horses are pushier than others but it is the art and skill of the handler how it all turns out.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 - 7:56 am:
YUP, I really sit on the side of no treats....for bribery purposes anyway.
When I was sick hubby had to feed the horses, they each get a hook over feed tub in the lean to. They only get alfalfa pelllets with a third of a carrot each...in their tubs,BUT boy do they look forward to it. Hank is always standing at the gate waiting anxiously for his "supper"
Hubby went out with feed tubs, Hank looked like he was going to mob him...I watched from the deck. Hubby asked if it was safe to go in there. I said yup just tell him to back off. Hubby did and Hank walked away, right to his feed spot and stood politely. Mine are not fed in stalls, they are fed right next to each other,with each in their own spot. Hubby asked if he had to stay there and referee. Nope they WILL not move from their spot until you say ok....he didn't believe! Especially pig Hank, who woofs his food down and is done first. Hubby went and got their hay, then said OK and off they went for the hay. He was amazed!! How did you train them to do that??? The simple ans. is they know I am herd leader and in some situations they don't move unless I say so...I could give many examples of this.
To say the least I was very proud my "training" had paid off, had they been "pushy pigs" hubby would never feed them again! It also made me feel confident that someone else could do it,if necessary. I have seen hand feeding (especially)turn horses into nipping, pushy pigs and YES it was the handler.
The last time the vet was here for Hank he brought this very thing up, he said a lot of horses he works on have NO manners, and it's a joy to come out here and do my horses. IMHO horses should stand well for vet and farrier, it is not their job to "train" them. Of course there are special situations, but for regular care and hopefully emergencies they have manners.
One of my farriers used to charge for "training" if the horse was a pig during shoeing or trimming...can't say I blame him.
OFF my soap box Good manners in a horse is one of my major expectations, so I get rather "windy" about it.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 - 9:11 am:
DrO & Diane,
When our barn was being built, I also fed my horses all in a row in the 2 open stalls that weren't divided yet. So 5 horses then, in a row 24 feet long. They all took their spots, waited as I filled each bucket, and everyone behaved just fine.
I always find it interesting like when letting them in, 4 of them now, and 2 have to go through one stall to theirs, one waits patiently outside, one starts eating in his, and they go in the same order everytime. BUT, have some one else in the family let them in to eat, and I hear yelling, and horses scrambling...so much depends on the handler, and BODY LANGUAGE is such a big part of it. If every new horse owner could only figure that out right away.
Body language, tone of voice, inner calmness in yourself with clear intent what you expect of the horse are key things here.
Time for me to step down now, grin!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 - 12:23 pm:
Mine all understand the word manners and when I say Go to your feeder they all GO! I can even send at trot ,walk etc.! Now my husband the engineer micro manager does things his way and the horses all realize the difference between us. I'm the carrot fairy he is the once in a great while treat giver. So Angie absolutely it is all in the understanding on BOTH sides!
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 - 1:43 pm:
In my opinion, the process of teaching him that he WILL be caught is an important step in earning his trust. If you stick with it, he'll learn that you're calm and assertive and that he can count on you for leadership. And that you expect good manners and obedience. This all carries over to other areas.
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Member:
beckyo
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 - 8:53 pm:
I have an update for you guys. This is so funny, my husband is really aggravated, because this is supposed to be his horse.
I've been going out every day and just being sweet to the horse, I bring him treats, pet him, and tell him what a good boy he is. I never go after him, I go and wait patiently for him to come to me. When I reach for him and he starts to back away, I immediately stop and wait for him to come to me.
My husband is impatient. He goes out every day and takes the horse treats, but when the horse backs away, he keeps going toward him, which has the horse backing further away.
The end result is, when my husband went out today, the horse backed to the other side of the round pen. When I went out today, the horse came right up to me, let me put a halter on him (this is a really big step) and stood calmly while I talked to him, scratched his ears and walked all around him.
I thought it was a fluke, but I removed the halter twice and put it back on with no problems. I then walked around the round pen (this is a large area, we've added quite a few panels). Every where I went, he followed me. What a good baby.
Ohh, and we finally named him, Buddy.
So now we have Croney and Buddy, our two friends.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Sep 5, 2008 - 5:01 pm:
Becky, we had much the same scenerio when we got Zarr. But finally my husband heard me and when Zarr trotted off again,around the barn expecting my husband to chase .... instead my husband stopped and played with the halter. Zarr came peek- abooing around the barn corner trying to figure out "Hay where did you go"! That was the light bulb moment for my husband! May yours have one soon. However it is fun too watch !
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