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Discussion on High Headed
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Member:
blkpnt
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 9:23 pm:
Hi!!
My gelding likes to put up his head at a trot and lope. I reach down by his ears and he immediatley DrOps his head...
When I reach to touch the top of his ear while in the saddle he immediately pulls away...
Comments Opinions Anyone?
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 9:59 am:
My first question would be, does he DrOp his head in a more correct way of going on a line or when trotting, loping, around at liberty? Or is the high head carriage how he normally moves?
If it is how he normally moves, then you should first teach him (ground schooling, ie longing) to lower his head and move that way.
Reasons horses put their head up:
1) natural head/neck set and how they move
2) hollowing back due to pain or perceived pain
3) lack of hock activity
4) don't know they can move any other way
and a bunch of other reasons. 
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 10:23 am:
Hi blkpnt,
I looked at your profile, but no basic info yet.
What breed is he? How old is he and is he fit/healthy teeth and back? Some horses will lift head/ hollow out their back due to different reasons. Sometimes due to fitness such as topline strength.Sometimes from saddle pain, sometimes as an evasion to the bit,(from either plain ole contact, or from someone who uses reins to balance) If he is just learning to carry a rider, sometimes it can be a 'not sure how to balance yet'. Has he done this since you have had him or is it a new thing? The way to correct it will depend on the cause.
What is your level of riding? Are you beginner, intermediate?
As far as pulling away when you touch his ear during riding, it just sounds like he is not used to feeling it. Easy enough to fix if you choose.
Have a great day
Leslie
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 10:48 am:
Whoops! I just read your other threads
First I would make sure your saddle fits properly and his teeth are ok. If those are Ok, Then I would get a "professional" trainer to come out and do a 1/2 hour lesson with you riding him and take it from there. Since it sounds like he is a green horse, you really want to do the foundation work right. I believe the 30/40 bucks would be money well spent.
Please do make sure to get a real Proffesional trainer. with references.
Everyone needs a trainer now and then...even the Olympians! they are worth their weight in gold!
Keep us informed on how it goes.
Leslie
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Member:
blkpnt
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 2:24 pm:
Terrie!
He seems to carry his head high when he is lunged but at a walk when you ride him he holds it lower but when I trot or lope him it rises higher
Leslie,
He is a tobiano paint, 7 yrs. old we have owned him for a year, we just had a chiropracter out three months ago and had him cracked back into shape, the vet is the one that suggested we get a chiropracter. I ride western and do not know how to rank myself as a rider,I have been riding for 3-4 years. I don't think I am a begginner.
We have had a friend come over and he said the saddle was very big. Due to the fact that I am new to the area where I live I have no clue on how to get the right trainer.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 2:54 pm:
You are in Indiana??? That's where Denny lives isn't it? If I had access to him I would use him. He is one of our members and a wonderful trainer...from the sounds of it.
I don't know where Dennis is in Indiana, but here is his website
https://www.dthorsealliance.com/index.html
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 3:04 pm:
ooo yeah I totally agree! Even if hes not near you he may know a decent trainer that is.
If not, ask around your vet office, feed/tack store too. Make sure you get references. look for: several people recommending someone, ask if you can audit a lesson they are giving, to see if you like and understand their style.
leslie
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Member:
blkpnt
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 3:07 pm:
K Thanks so much for all your help!!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 3:24 pm:
Blkpnt, I bought a barrel horse once in my younger day, she was very well trained (for barrels)...but a handful. Sometimes you have to retrain them, to suit your purpose. I had been riding many years when I got her, but no one actually had taught me to ride "right" I thought all control of a horse came from the reins. I saw in one of your post you use a tom thumb, I have heard they are a harsh bit. BUT if you have soft hands it shouldn't matter. I rode a mare i owned with a tom thumb for years...that's what she came with, and she was the softest mouthed horse you could ride, another BUT, that was when my skills had finally improved (after 20 yrs.). Lessons can go a long way in helping. Someone could tell me until they were blue in the face how to do something and it just didn't sink in until I experienced it in some lessons. I get it now when something is explained, but it was a long row to hoe!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 3:55 pm:
OK, have to admit I didn't know what a 'tom thumb' bit was exactly so I went and did a bit of research. Ugh! Why on earth would you use such a thing on a GREEN horse??? The age of a horse says nothing about the level of training or knowledge the horse has. You've indicated this horse is pretty green. He should be in a plain snaffle - period. Chances are good much of your issues with him could be just because of this bit.
There's one. If the saddle isn't a good fit, there's two. Start there. Sorry, but tack needs to not only fit the horse properly, it has to be the right choice for the job you want the horse to do. In your case you want the horse to learn some very basics, the fundamentals if you will. You need to pretend he is a baby and start there, use "baby style tack" until he has progressed to the "big boy" stuff.
No offense meant here at all, ok?? I have been riding for almost 50 years now (ug that's a very long time isn't it?), and it was only about 8 or so years ago I learned that though I thought I was a great rider, I didn't know a thing about how to ride! LOL Oh, I could get on most any horse and stick fairly well, and could get it to do almost anything I asked. That's being able to ride, right?? Nope. 8 years ago I began taking lessons with a master trainer and I have learned more about how to ride in (constant) lessons with him. I am STILL a novice/beginner rider!! Ok, an advanced beginner, but a novice none the less. I don't have 35 years of his level of knowledge, feel, finesse and tact. Course I won't live long enough to learn that much from him either, so I may well die being only a novice rider. LOL I am sorry, but to me riding for only 3 or 4 years doesn't make you an advanced rider - unless you've had 2 or 3 lessons a week for the past 3 or 4 years?? Then maybe...
So what we have here is the old 'green on green' situation. Normally that ends in black and blue too often. Get professional help, get training for you both and learn together.
The horse's head carriage may just be a direct result of an ill fitting saddle. A saddle that's too big can be worse than one that's too small. until you have one that fits properly, ride bareback or don't ride at all. It sounds like you both could benefit from more ground work anyway. Longe sessions, teach him to stretch out forward and get that nose down so he can use that back. It may be difficult for him, or it may actually hurt him to do this. A good trainer will know the difference, be able to help sort it out and help him get through it.
If you touch his back what does he do? How does he react with a light touch, or a heavy pressing touch? Is there any reaction and if so what/how??
Anyway, get rid of that bit, go get a correct fitting(!) snaffle for him. Start there. I think part of his seeming lack of response is that he is probably thoroughly confused. Heck I am and I am just reading. LOL Again I mean no offense here, just trying to help. Sometimes a good dose of reality isn't what we want to have, but it can be exactly what we need.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 3:55 pm:
Blkpnt, if you are interested in working with Denny, I am organizing a 2 -day clinic with him at the end of September. Not sure how far away from me you are, but I'm in SW MI...about 1 hr 15 minutes from South Bend. If you are interested, let me know and I will send you the details. (My email is in my profile).
Ditto to what everyone else said about lessons...a good set of eyes on the ground is invaluable. We all tend to have habits that we are unaware of. We do the wrong thing for so long, it feels right until it is pointed out, and then it takes a lot of hard work to overcome ingrained habits.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 4:13 pm:
Age has nothing to do with level of training or ummm bad training a horse has been through is quite correct..I call my main riding horse a green broke 11 yo LOL and he is! He has been "broke" since he was 3
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 7:27 pm:
Blckpnt here is a very good description of a tom thumb bit and the behaviors that can follow it, it explains it well and may be worth a read. It sounds a lot like the problems you are having.
https://www.markrashid.com/trouble_with_tom_thumb.htm
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New Member:
carrieb
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 4:41 pm:
I have a 7yr old app/quarter cross she carries her head very high when trotting weather she's under saddle or being lounged. I think it is a habit from her previous owners using a severe bit, I use a snaffle. I can use a light bungee from a noseband to the breast strap and she does well, carries her head beautifully which helps her trot because she can engage her back in better , but the minute I take the bungee off up goes the head. on the trail she will carry her head so high she doean,t pay attention and will stumble but if I put the bungee on she is fine. She has a very willing attitude and likes to please
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 3:03 am:
Hmmm, maybe a running martingale?
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 5:23 am:
Is it possible she is built to carry her head high? What is her shoulder angle like? How does her neck attach to her body?
Instead of trying to pull her head down, why not really focus on trying to get her to bring her back UP and let the head take care of itself?
I personally don't like those bungee things because from what I have seen - though I have only worked on 3 horses trained in them - they teach the horse to push their head up until they hit resistance then bounce down; not exactly what you want...
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 5:57 am:
The advise you already got is SO good . May I add some more ? Could you lead her over poles on the ground ? Walk and trot - just with halter . No riding . She is than focused on the poles and will put her head down herself,....... Do you know Linda Tellington Jones ? Might be a good idea to look into her training .
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 6:01 am:
Terrie, I identify with you . You are lucky to get a good trainer . !! Riding is continuing process and sometimes very lonely .
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 6:17 am:
I have an older Arab who always had her nose waaay up there. Before I learned a better way of doing things, I had a shanked bit on her, 4 reins and an running martingale. None of that solved the problem. It tooks lots of learning (me learning) and reschooling of her to get her to where she is now: rides with nose down, arched neck, light contact in a snaffle bit. Nice western jog, slow lope.
There are many factors in play here. And I am not an expert but I'll offer what I can.
First, lunging her. If you lunge her to the point where she is actually "working" her head will DrOp down as she starts using her hind end more, and her back comes up. Unfortunately, that is where many people stop. They think the horse is sweating, the edge is off, time to quit. Just lunge in as big of circle as you can to keep it easier on her joints.
You can get the same results riding cross country at a working trot. I say cross country because it's easier in a straight line, IMO, than going round and round in an arena. Ride at a posting medium trot, let her trot and trot,don't worry about the head. When she feels like she wants to slow down, then, and only then, make contact with her mouth, keep light contact, and ask her with your legs to collect a bit. Not speed up, just carry herself better.
This way, is HARD work for the rider and I know others will have different ideas. This way was told to me by an old timer who believed in putting the miles on to build horse and rider up.
You can also, at a walk, in an arena if you have one, ask the horse to DrOp it's head by keeping light contact on one rein, and putting more tension on the other rein. Hold until you get the slightest give. INSTANTLY release both reins. Work on lower the head over and over at the walk first.
When trotting, if you are posting, it's harder, for me anyhow, to be as light on the reins. If you SIT does she slow down and do a nice jog? My Arab had a hard time with that. It was trot 100 mph, or walk, no jogging. It is all in how a person sits, and uses their seat. If you can sit the trot, and get it slow enough, work on the lower of the head now at that gait.
Lots of transitions will help to. With this mare what I did was follow the arena fence. Everytime she speeded up, I turned her nose to the fence. Pretty soon she just figured out O.K., I don't need to go fast. Then we worked on my sitting, and her lower her head.
I have a gelding who was much easier to train. He lowers his head nicely and knows that when I let my breath out, down shifting comes next!
There are as I said, many things to work on & think of. NONE of which are just "getting the head down" it's not that simple. FYI, the mare I rode for 18 years with all the extra stuff to lower her head? She got behind the bit, and very hollow backed. So NO devices to help with headset on my horses.
Of course saddle fit. Pain issues. A 3 part bit with the thick middle logenzer thingy might be really nice for her instead of the regular snaffle. KP makes nice ones.
Good luck, take your time!
Stay safe.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 9:28 am:
FWIW, Agie is right. Longe, work her and when done right her head will naturally lower. Get rid of the bungie!! It's not gonna help and it's dangerous.
The key is to get her hocks moving alot. Yup this means asking for more and more 'speed' but do so without allowing the horse to break the gait. Begin at walk, and ask for more and more until the horse is almost but not quite trotting, yet still really walking. Try to keep the horse moving at this pace. If the horse breaks to trot allow a bit and then ask to slow to that super fast walk again. (repeat. LOL) Anyway once the hocks get more active the head will naturally start to lower. Remember the hocks are directly connected to the poll. The poll will not lower if the hocks aren't active.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 9:28 am:
Ooops, sorry I mean ANGIE is right!
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