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Discussion on Just what does back to basics mean for an already trained horse???
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 10:10 am:
As you all know I took a pretty good fall off of hank...it wasn't his fault, but every fall off of a horse induces a little less confidence, in myself and Hank.
He is one of the horned ones. I still am not able to ride yet, but I thought I would do some "back to basic " stuff with him. To help rebuild my confidence and saw off a little bit of his horns.
On the ground he is a perfect gentleman leading. He stops when I stop, he walks when I walk, he backs when I back...no problems there .
I took him down to the arena yesterday and played some of the Parelli games (moving from pressure), though we are rusty he did pretty well., though I didn't feel I quite had his full attention.... he was licking and chewing and relatively calm and compliant.
Then I decided to lunge him, which in Parelli lingo is the circle game. I haven't lunged him in a few years and he was showing the horns. He would take off like a wild banshee, then finally come down to a relatively calm trot...to the right. His preference is to the right so we worked that way until I had him MOSTLY under control, couldn't get him to walk to save my soul! Other than that he was good, stopped on command immediately.
To the left was another story, what a nut job! First it took me quite awhile to get him going that way, but once we got going to the left ONCE again he took off like a banshee, bucking and running and having a good old time (not me. So figured he was blowing off some pent up energy, and let him have at it for a couple seconds. Brought him down to a trot, but once again I can not get that boy to walk!
Don't use a whip or even carry one.
He knows how to lunge
He knows voice commands (reenforced before lunging) Did great.
HOW do you make a horned horse walk on the lunge line???? Any other suggestions on some "back to basic work" while I can't ride??
Thanks
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 10:42 am:
Diane,
I love these Hank stories, I think Hank & Tango should have their own personal section on HA!
I don't have those problems with Tango believe it or not, (he's still freaking out about things above him) but my mare Gem does something similar. She ALWAYS, never fails, bucks and rears on the lunge line. I am talking screaming, squealing, standing on her hind legs pawing the air. I DO NOT want her to ever EVER do that with me on her!
What I am trying is to keep her as calm as possible and slowly build up to going faster in hopes that she figures out she don't need to do the rodeo bit. (Only does this with saddle on btw) Like Hank, she knows what to do. She is super responsive to my body language. Keeps an ear and/or eye on me, attention isn't a problem. I do lots of direction changes, and the driving between me and the fence. I want her to walk calmly between me and the fence, turn and go back quietly. Then trot and do it quietly. She goes past too far one direction almost every time, but doesn't circle around, so we are working on that.
So in short, every time he trots, change direction. Keep the circle small. Do the work between you and the fence. Keep it calm as can be in the beginning. WHOA means STOP NOW. If he's racing around you 50 mph, it's hard to look at his rear and get him to face you, so you can't let it get that far. I don't believe in letting them blow off steam; that's for in the pasture on their time. When we are working, I want obedience.
Keep yourself calm too. I had this problem with Willow when she was younger, (Arab) and I used to get so mad because her head would go up and off she'd go. I had to learn to be super quiet and calm. So does he need quiet? Or does he need more firmness? Maybe a one time crack on the butt with a whip would get him to think "Hey, she means business" I don't know...every horse is different and it depends on his personality.
Curious to see what others suggest, let us know what works as I need the same advice with my little rodeo mare.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 11:15 am:
I hate to admit it, but that is one of the reasons I stopped lunging Hank, I didn't like seeing what he is capable of! If he did that under saddle it would be a train wreck.
I was calm, I didn't get mad at all. It was actually kind of funny. I did get a couple walk steps and immediately stopped him after and told him how wonderful he was. (what a lie).
A crack with the whip would launch him too the moon. He will disengage and stop at any speed....even when loosing it, but he looks at me with his eyes rolling in his head ...like that was fun let's do it again UGHHH. I'm real tempted to keep him at speed until a walk looks real good to him...Would that be wrong?
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 1:05 pm:
D
Are you using a round pen or longe line? I like to use a longe line in my pastures. And in the beginning, what works for the pumpkin eater was to keep my circles smaller. I had more control. She also mastered the walk and whoa before moving onto trot. I used lots and lots of transitions.
If she would start to act stupid I would make the circles smaller. If that didnt work I would do a little groundschool bootcamp right then and there.
One of the best things to do with pumpkin, to get her to listen( she thinks she rules the world..alpha doesn't even begin to describe her) is to disengage her front end. Make her step that front leg behind the other. It works wonders on her brain. And next thing you know--she is wanting to listen to me and looks to me to tell her what to do. I get 2 eyes and licking and chewing then I would go back to longeing and she would pay attention to my cues. Now she longes perfectly without any fuss or arguing.
Just my way tho
L
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 1:38 pm:
The circles were small I used a 12 ft. lead. I couldn't master the walk because he wouldn't . Whoa is working fine, EEEAASSSYYY walk slowed him down, whoa stops him, now I need the in between!!! I probably just need more time, that boy is a nut case tho! Gotta love the horned ones.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 2:04 pm:
LOL
I just imagined you going to walmart, getting a halloween devil costume and wearing it when longing him. 
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 2:41 pm:
I think maybe he's the one that should wear it , or maybe get him an angel costume... You are what you wear kinda thing!
I'm going down to try this again, gawd you'd think I never lunged a horse before, WHY does that horse have to be like that. Hopefully I'll have a good report. I finally figured out how to work the video on my camera, maybe I'll video the A$$ if I can lunge, video, with broken ribs
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 2:57 pm:
Hi Diane,
Well, there are 2 schools of thought on lungeing. One says it's a great way to get the silliness finished before riding; the other says that bucking on the lunge is a big no-no. Whichever school you choose, never forget Bill Steinkraus's wise words: never fight the oats.
So make sure that there is a clear time and method for Hank to get his ha-has out, and a clear transition to work when that ha-ha time is over. Make sure that he has room to balance, and that your lungeing equipment, whatever you choose, does not overly restrain him but also allows you to deliver a correction.
To the left (left side in), most horses will DrOp that left shoulder, fall on the forehand, and scoot. It's a loss of balance, as much as anything else. Make sure his circle is big enough, and school tons of transitions trot/walk to ensure that he is paying attention, and to encourage him to get his balance. Make sure you are clear and consistent in your cues so that he knows what you are asking. If he blows you off, get in his face about it.
My horses learn to cue off my leading shoulder on the lunge (so left traveling that is my left shoulder). If I tip it towards them, that is a half halt; bigger is a down transition; all the way around is a halt. I don't rely on verbal cues because I want the horse watching me, not looking at sparkly things and expecting me to holler for attention.
But that's my own approach. Most important is that he blow off steam somehow and then go to work, balance, and pay attention to you.
I'm not a student of Parelli, so I have no idea how all this fits into that. Hope it helps, anyhow.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 3:16 pm:
Elizabeth has it here. Work time is work time, play time is play time. Diane from your description, sounds to me like he is having physical issues going left, possibly stiffness. Plus if he doesn't have great balance and strength of muscle he will need to 'explode' a bit here and there on the line. If it's in the beginning, beginning of either direction that is, then that's his need to get the energy moving period.
Keep in mind horses are two sided, just cause they go well one way doesn't mean they'll be able to go well instantly the other way. ;]
I would duff the 12 foot parelli line for "circling" initially. I know he has his levels, and 12 foot is close in-controlling better - work. Get yourself a nice/good 30ft really honest to goodness longe line and use that. If Hank is having physical issues he needs a much larger circle than the 12 foot line will allow. Let him go out to the end of the longe line if he needs to to find his balance. If he explodes a bit too much, let him go, let him take the lone, then go get him back and start again. Whatever it takes.
Give him times to be able to find his way of going before asking much of him. If you haven't "longed him in a few years" then it's almost like relearning the skill again, possibly, for him. Give him a bit of a break here.
Also move/walk with him, don't begin just standing still in a center of a circle having him work around you. Move alongside in the right position to influence, and let him move so he can find his balance. Once he's got it then he'll be more agreeable to do as you ask, I think.
To too am not a PNH student, though have used his methods in the past. There is a vast difference in the circling game and real honest to goodness longe work.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 3:46 pm:
Ok we did a little session, boy after looking at the videos I realized how fat he is again . He did just get his shoes pulled and it does appear he is a little short strided in front...tho his feet don't seem ouchy so to speak. He was really good (compared to yesterday anyway) I made it short but sweet.
It does appear as though he is falling in, but then again at this point I just want him to listen.
Videos to follow they are taking forever to download. YES he is VERY fat!!!! Haven't been able to ride for about 3 weeks now
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 3:54 pm:
Diane,
I just wanted to point out I disagree with Terrie (something I NEVER do, lol!) on getting a real lunge line. I would suggest going to your local hardware or where ever, and getting 30-35 feet of rope that has good "feel & weight" and putting your own hook on that. I'd rather use a rope with some weight, a hook of my preference, than a webbed line which is what I find most lunging lines are. They flap around, get knotted up, etc.
I think I got 3/4" nylon rope with a brass hook last time I made one. My driving lines are different, not sure what the rope is made out of, and I have bull hooks on them, don't like the bull hooks though as I think they are too heavy. But I like the rope better, it's got more feel.
Yup, I do think little things make a difference!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 4:10 pm:
Having owned horses for 40 yrs. I have every type of lunge line you can imagine, the one I used today was a 14 ft rope one, he does do better close in to start. We were not doing the circle game, just a little lunge to get his mind going, did do some yo-yo game, that seems to get him thinking and calm. While I am waiting for the videos to upload to photo bucket is there any other things I can do with him from the ground to "sharpen" him a little.
We will move to bigger circles when he is a little more under control.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 6:04 pm:
ok here is a couple videos...the big one is still uploading
https://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=hankvide o002.flv
https://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=hankvide o004.flv
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 6:50 pm:
Diane, you use a NYLON rope as a lunge line?!! I have seen horrendous burns from nylon ropes used a lunge lines. If a horse decides to suddenly reverse directions or does some other weird move and somehow gets a leg caught in the rope a bad burn can happen fast. That's not even thinking about what can happen to your hands if your horse suddenly pulls away! I also like to use rope, but ALWAYS use soft, heavy cotton. I have used soft cotton ropes of different sizes and weights as training reins, draw reins, driving lines and lunge lines with never a problem.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 7:33 pm:
based on the videos, I would say this is as much a respect/mental issue as it is a "rustiness" or "getting the haha's out" issue...
You can tell by how he backs that he really didnt want to listen to you, and he really protected his left eye/side from you...i was amazed at how much you had to do to get him to back, and how dull his back was with as much as you were doing...if i ever used that much energy with one of my guys we'd be trotting backwards, at least!! he also backed with his head turned to the left, which means he is protecting his left side from you...he doesnt like seeing you there...
i noticed he didnt like to stand square, in either video, and a horse that doesnt stop and stand square leaning in and bracing against you... again, a respect issue...
personally i prefer to work in a round pen as it allows my horse to show me how he really feels, and that i can work with it.. the addition of a rope will always partially limit a horse...
i would say work him to get his attention.. once you have that you'll have the walk..dont pussy foot...whenever i "lunge" a horse on the ground, i make sure i move with the horse, adjusting my body energy to match what i want the horse to do...if the horse is tuned into me he'll do whatever i'm doing.. its a feel issue... if he wants to tune me out and do his own thing, then i make him do my thing, faster, until i feel he is ready to listen to me again.. then i DrOp my body energy and let the horse come down to me...as soon as i get a few steps of walk i draw the horse in and allow several minutes of soak time, not only to reinforce that with me as by far the best place to be, but also that when he gets with me and matches my energy then chill time comes quickly...
watch how he draws in, and do it from each side.. ideally he should stop and face you square, with his spine straight.. if its cocked to one side or the other, then he's bracing you, which means he's still not accepting of you on that side..
if he continues to back with a crooked spine, i do a sending on one eye and drawing in on the other eye to get the horse to want to see me on that "braced side"...i also always back on a circle so that the spine stays soft, which helps keep the mind open...
this is just my half penny's worth...i dont do Parelli, so this may completely contradict everything Parelli says, its just stuff i've learned over the years..
Mel
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 7:50 pm:
Hi Melissa, yes he does the back much better, In a different situation the energy level would have been higher from me, but I was trying to keep things low key AND trying to video. When the camera got put down and I had full concentration the back up was straight and much more energetic.
Today was a you CAN walk on the lunge line lesson and we will build from there. With him it is better to start with low key and work up to "more energy" If we start high energy it stays there for quite awhile.
Wait to you see the other video, you'll really have fun with that He does disengage immediately usually, but I think I wasn't right on with the camera and trying to video + broken ribs.
Next week I'll show you our progress. I really hate lunging to tell you the truth, but it is a good exercise for us while I can't ride.
Maybe he didn't want to look at my left side out of guilt...he's the one that broke it...guilt maybe?
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 8:18 pm:
When I keep in mind that he has had no work and been off his feet for soo very long, I thought he did Ok. I imagine while his feet were hurting you let him get away with a few things...which is something all of us horse moms would do. And it looks like he still wants to live in that world (minus the founder pain of course)
He obviously was busy looking at the *moonbeams* when trotting. But I think if you keep after it and him, he will pick it back up quickly
One thing I would do for safety is keep his nose tilted toward you with small bumps of the hand till he bends it inside.
Teehee, He is full of himself! LOL
Stay safe though
L
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 9:50 am:
Diane .... A few observations from what I can see on the video's.
1. I like to work my horses without the fly mask so I can see and read eyes and ears.
2. I don't like the heavy clip on the halter as it can be a distraction as it is bouncing around, and maybe even bump and bruise in a real "bout" of resistance.
3. He appears to be stiff, probably due to weight and lack of work. I would work on lots of flexes, both vertical and lateral. It will help him become softer and more calm and attentive to you.
4. When his attention is drifting away from you (watch the ear) I like to give a slight tug back in to me to regain focus. I match the tug to his resistance. Slight resistance = slight tug, major resistance = major tug.
Work on direction changes. Get him to stop and turn and face you ... back up a step and go around you in the opposite direction.
5. Lastly .. I know I just saw a short video, but I didn't see any "reward" or "praise" when he did back, or do what you were asking. I believe horses learn much faster with praise and reward than without. The reward is the release of pressure and a complimentary pet or rub and a "good boy" .. then back to work. Remember, when you are trying to establish these results, reward the slightest try and smallest change.
Again, just my observations from a short video. I am sure I missed a lot.
DT
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Member:
jerre
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 2:40 pm:
Diane, a good way to help a horse get focused is to do the circle game with your back against a fence -- in other words, a half-circle game. The horse will come to the fence, turn and face you and you send him the other way. So, as in Dennis' suggestion 4, you can use the fence to help make the turns his idea/necessity.
When he starts looking to you and asking questions, you can try a full circle.
Jerre
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 5:16 pm:
How do I view the videos? The link takes me to a homepage, but nothing about Hank! Thanks, Julie
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:02 pm:
Julie,
I couldn't find the video either clicking on the link in my email. But if you open the HA thread itself, and click on the link there, that worked for me.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:11 pm:
So the consensus is Chubbers don't listen to me. Very good observation all, because under saddle he can be like that sometimes also.
Can any of you tell me what the purpose of lungeing is??? I know some people use it for the horse to blow off steam, which has always been my purpose. I have never really lunged a horse much...never interested me, now it does!
But I am starting to think there may be many purposes. Hank and I will work on it this week and revideo next weekend...I love getting your feedback, such smart people HAers are. Good thing I couldn't figure out how to attach the other video LOL, that was really somethin
Jerre at the moment I don't have a fence around my arena or any where else actually that would work, they are all electric.
Julie the links work fine for me?
Thanks all for your opinions, it does help.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:43 pm:
Diane,
One of the main reasons I longe is to help my horse move correctly. ;]
Yes I can use it to allow the horse to blow off steam in a controlled manner.
I use longe to also make certain my horse is listening to me well way before I ever get on.
But mostly I use longe to help her learn something new, to help her move the way should move in a well balanced, relaxed and really moving well forward manner. It's a great way to help a horse develop the right muscles and balance without having to carry my weight. Besides then she does have my inept 'aids' to confuse her when I am on her.
I can teach her new stuff on ground first then transfer to the saddle. For instance we began with move and be relaxed. Then we added in half halts to help her shift weight and rebalance. Then I used longe to help her build strength of muscle, and more recently to canter well balanced and make easy smooth transitions from walk to canter and back to walk again.
But truly for me it's a great way to help her develop correct muscles to carry herself without me hindering her movement (as much).
The old masters said you should longe at least once a week without any riding at all. Just a short, intense longe session to keep the horse in tune, as it were.
I think if I had a very young horse I would use longe to help the horse learn to move and listen, then graduate to long lines, and lastly to under saddle work. I didn't need to do that with my little mare. Just had to teach her to stretch out and relax, and then finally to build muscles and strength. She had no topline at all, moved like a dream but had no muscle. She didn't know she could move with her back engaged, she didn't know she could actually lower her nose and still move forward. LOL Course here we are a bit more than 2 and a half years later and she still hasn't learned that she can poop and move forward at the same time. Gotta love her.
You can have a horse go round and round on a line and call that longing, but it probably really serves no purpose, except to have the horse move. Or you can make the horse truly work correctly and that is a real art. I am no expert, but I can help my mare go as if she is a top level dressage horse, "on the bit" (with no bit just a longe cavesson), getting all that foam out of her mouth, "lipstick" etc. Yup, just on the longe, and only when I help her to move correctly. So I know if I am doing it well or not pretty quickly. haha
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:44 pm:
Diane,
I don't normally think just "lunging" I group it all into ground work. My round pen is off the back of the barn, so I might ask for a side pass as part of my lunging/ground work, horse facing the barn. I usually start out with a walk, then trot, change of directions, looking for the horse (I only do this with Gem & Tango for the most part)to be paying attention, and looking for gait problems. Tango tends to get gimpy at times, so before anything else, I check to see how he is moving.
A fireball horse, I would walk more, keep it calm, do direction changes, drive along the fence, etc. That works with Willow, Arab. I have to work not to hype her up, never, ever show her a whip! Cody on the other hand, I might get after him, and MAKE him work.
So think about what you want to accomplish first. I personally like word commands, others use a whip in different positions to get different results. Whatever you decide, be consistant of course.
I think from seeing the videos, I'd start with basics. (He is a little chubber, huh? Not in shape, huh?) Walk,easy,easy, whoa. WHOA NOW! And not "whoa and face me either, but you can do it that way." Walk....Whoa, and stand. Walk a nice circle. Then trot, WHOA. (I find it easier to go from trot to whoa, than trot to walk, at first but you body language will tell him what to do)
I also free lunge, making the horses do figure 8's. Sometimes I just lunge at a good working trot, waiting for the nose to go down, the horse to start working from behind more. (only problem I have with that, is I tend to get dizzy!)
I LOVE ground work; lunging and ground driving. I figure I am not on top of the horse getting in the way. I can see what the horse is doing, vs trying to feel is things are right. And IMHO, a horse that respects you on the ground, and knows word commands, is 100% better under saddle. You never know when WHOA might save your life.
Hopefully someone who has worked with more than the same 4 horses for the last 5 1/2 years, can lay out a program better for you.
To answer your question: I think the purpose is whatever you decide it to be. Take it as far as you feel you want to. Mindless circles to blow off steam? A horse trained to walk, trot, canter, stop, back, on word commands? Perfection at all gaits? (I tend to lump exercise for me in the equation too, lol!)
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 9:00 pm:
Thanks Angie, that worked.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 9:53 pm:
Hi Diane, Thanks for starting this thread, there are a lot of good ideas here. I have no advice to offer, I just wanted to tell you that anyone who can lounge and videotape at the same time while recovering from broken ribs has my admiration!
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 10:18 pm:
Sorry, I meant "longe." Lounging isn't so hard now is it?
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 5:57 am:
Ditto a lot of Terri's comments. I use longe for many reasons. It is a large part of my foundation building on any horse. It gets my horse thinking and focusing on me. When I move his feet a particular way, we are building trust, respect and control. I call it my "sending" exercises, or "longing with purpose." In other words, I never just let the horse run around me.
We change directions, we transition up and down, and we turn and face, and wind down to a one rein stop. We work on turning on the forehand, then stepping back and turning on the haunches. I don't want the horse just running away to blow off steam while on the end of a rope. I want him thinking and performing tasks developing both physical and mental conditioning.
I use these exercises to teach trailer loading, desensitizing and confidence building, water crossing, and many other areas a horse needs help with. It is a valuable tool to have in your tool box when used properly.
DT
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 6:30 am:
Again I hate to admit this, but Hank WAS trained to do all of that. The guy that broke him could "send" him anywhere. Point and shoot pretty much.
He was desensitized to just about everything, that is why he is not a spook, or if he does spook it is normally in place.
Hank came back from training "too sensitive" for me. (10 yrs. ago)
He can and will turn on the haunches, side step down a fence line. He had "self carriage" moved from his hind end wonderfully....I ruined it. Stopped and turned with just a shift of weight in the saddle.
He STILL has that training in his head, it is very reachable.
There in lies part of my problem, such as a tug or even a slight pressure on the lunge line will turn him in. That is part of his training...and he has retained it all these years. So I have to be careful not to send conflicting signals. If he does what what he was trained to do.
Such as if I step in towards his haunches he will stop, I do this stuff without realizing it, and send conflicting signals, Which in turn makes him cranky I'm sure and he starts ignoring me UGHHH
The trainer would lunge him, stop him with minimum pressure and body language, switch directions in one smooth transition.
HMMMM as I type this I see it is ME who needs the training...Hank has it!!!! I do understand the release of pressure, and I know it didn't look like it on the video, MOST often my timing is good.
I think I know what to do now!!! I am on vacation next week and I am going to work on myself and see how Hank responds. He is a horse that needs firmness and direction.
Denny are you going to be coming through No. Il soon????? This would be a great layover place for you
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 8:33 am:
For your morning viewing pleasure, I had to use a converter, so they have to flash their add in there.
This one is a little longer and may give you a little better idea of all my problems
https://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=hankvide o003_New.flv
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 9:20 am:
1. Pick up the poop, no distractions...hahahaha!
2. Take off the fly mask so you can see his eyes.
3. I would say walk, then use "easy" more. If he's walking, don't say anything. If he trots, try NO, followed by easy...walk. Walk once, I wouldn't keep saying walk, except one time when he is walking...make sense? I like to think of it this way, we must sound like squirrels with our constant "chatter" horses I think respond to body language more then voices, though voice commands are part of training. I tend to be very non-verbal when working with a horse (very unlike me when around people as you can tell from my wordy typing!)
Did you notice at the end you threw out walk whoa trot all in a matter of about 3 seconds?
I really should have hubby film me, I bet I'd be shocked at what I am really doing, vs what I think I am doing! You are a brave woman to film yourself!
See if you can bribe hubby to film you so you can concentrate on just what you are doing. (maybe put that deer head up...tee hee?)
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 9:33 am:
Diane, *applause* Good job, you have taken the first fabulous step to helping Hank! Yup need to work on you, you need to learn to 'talk' to him, and not just when he is on longe. *wink* it carries over into everything, as you know.
So set up that camera of yours on a tripod so you can get an idea of what exactly you are doing and he is doing (if possible), or ask someone to film you.
Start working with him just walking to begin with (when you can get him to simply just walk). Pay attention to what you do and what he does. Take tiny, tiny baby steps. Don't repeat toooo much though. But just have a basic plan to do one thing. Once you accomplish that one small thing STOP for the day.
Like I will move my body and watch Bella to see how she reacts. I pay super close attention because the changes can be so subtle they can often be missed. It helps to have all this in your 'library of language'. If it works on Hank, it will work on most any horse most likely.
No need to get frustrated, in fact if you are getting frustrated, find something simply he will instantly respond to (whoa even) and stop there. ;] But you know this. We tend to ignore that on occasion and then later as ourselves 'why'? haha So, keep the longe sessions short if you have to, just work on one tiny thing, even if it's how you stand with him, or walk along with him, how you hold your body position, etc. what he does if you do.... then keep a journal and write it all down.
Ok, so that last sounds like 'work' and a waste, cause you'll remember it all... hahaha yeah fat chance there. Writing it down helps you totally 'relive' or re-experience it. Use as much detail in trying to explain what and how as you can think of. Then after a few days go back and read it. Can you still fully understand exactly in minute detail what and how do did.... ??
People ask me how I am able to articulate some of the more subtle nuances of working with a horse, it is because I keep a journal of what I learn as I learn it, as I learn to refine it. Heck, I am old, it's the only way I can remember half this stuff. LOL But it can make a huge difference in progress as well. It's kinda like an athlete playing their game in their head before they hit that playing field.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 10:06 am:
Hi Diane,
There are some good books and videos on longing, but your best bet, if you are serious about improving, is to take Hank and yourself together to someone who can teach you, and watch you, and help you learn.
philosophical transition....
These boards are a great resource, but if people could significantly improve their horse skills by reading a few paragraphs, well, we'd all be Grand Prix riders by now (or whatever we dream of being). The pros among us-- Denny and others-- have a ton of sweat equity and practice and self discipline and apprenticeship into their skills.
I have to remind myself of this all the time-- horse training and riding and doctoring are hard. Each skill must be acquired on its own, and there aren't many shortcuts. A horse who knows the right answer if/when asked the right question is the only shortcut there is, I think, and you have him.
So ease up on yourself. I'm a reasonably effective "longeur"-- no genius-- and I started paying attention to it about 8 years ago. I'm slow, but it's also not a quick thing to master.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 10:22 am:
Diane in all fairness you need to set your video on a tripod or have someone video for you.. As you concentration is being pulled from your horse to the camera to horse..
Hank looks good..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 10:30 pm:
I definately think we need an outside source videoing this...I really want to see YOUR body language.. one of the things you see most often when someone uses a lunge line is that they have their vector right on the horse - usually pointing to the hindquarters - which only serves to push the horse forward/faster... then you have the lunge line which tries to slow the horse down...you can have this whole push/pull deal going and not even realize it...course, without seeing the whole picture maybe not..
even tho you were using the video camera he was really tuning you out.. that whole "poop" issue was a definite test... which was more important, you or the poop?...poop won!!!and then won again the 2nd time around...eventually he just got bored of the game...
when you start lunging him is that the way you always start, or was it a video camera issue.. i noticed you moved awaya from him, rather then him moving away from you...setting him up so that he takes the correct position (preferably by yielding space and crossing legs/bending spine properly), sets him up to think of you as the leader...you put him where you want, not letting him wander out to where he wants..
personally, i dont get the whole voice thing.. natural horsemanship means to do what is natural to the horse, and i just dont see that in nature the horse using much of the english language.. that's a whole human taught thing, which means its a learned skill that is quickly forgotten...its all about body language to me...that's a natural, reflexive skill that the horse never forgets, cuz its hardwired into their system...
just the other day i caught myself creating a problem with my goofy arab... he was tuning me out so i had surged him to get his attention, but when i went to bring him back he didnt come back to me, even tho i really DrOpped down my body language...since he's pretty reflexive he naturally matches the energy of whats around him, and my DrOp in body language should have been enough... well, it was, as soon as i got my vector off his back end.. as soon as i got my positioning right he DrOpped right back down... dont know what i was thinking when i was screwing up but i know he was thinking what an idiot i was!!!
that high head carriage and elevated tail tells me there's a whole lot of tension there...again, it could be due to the whole videoing thing cuz your attention is divided...his antics were pretty mild and i didnt see any twisting, so dont feel that they were directed specifically at you...
i never worry about getting high energy.. use it to your advantage... you can use the sympathetic/parasympathetic nervous system response to your advantage here... he tunes you out so you surge to high energy...spike that central nervous system quickly.. hold him there till the attention is on you, then bring him back to where you want him, and hold him there till the parasympathetic system kicks back in.. he settles at the gait you want him at... his brain almost fools him into thinking that when the parasympathetic kicks in this is the cool, relaxed place, so he instinctively starts wanting to be there...the better the spike up, the better the spike down, and the better the response..i set this up all the time and love it..you make the horse's body search for that spot.. they cant wait to get to it..
well, my 2 cents worth and having said all this, maybe we'll get a better video where u can pay attention to you and hank only and our opinions will totally change..
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 6:45 am:
Tripod? I don't have a tripod, just figured out how to work the video, but I'm sure I could come up with some sort of redneck thing that would work!
I haven't had time this week to work with him, and probably won't until this weekend, I am an inconsistent person, which doesn't help!
I HAD to leave the fly mask on, if you look closely the cows had decided to be our audience on the other side of the arena, There is NO fly spray that will keep the flies away (when the cows are present). I had taken it off but Hanks face was black with flies in a matter of minutes. Must be getting soft in my old age, but I can't stand seeing flies eating at their eyes
I think my bruised ribs and back will finally be better by the weekend, so Hank and I can get down to business
Thanks for all the suggestions, we will see how we do this weekend.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 11:54 am:
Excellent suggestions above. Consistency is the most important part of training. Even if you only do 15 minutes a day, that is better than 1 hour twice a week. Try to set aside some time.
Besides the many good reasons to lunge written above, it is also very effective for reading your horse's mood of the day and dealing with it in a safer manner than riding. Perhaps the day you were thrown, you could have avoided it by lunging first. I always do some sort of ground work before mounting, and have saved my a$$ a few times.
I agree, Hank is testing you with his bossiness. He thinks he is head horse and he can intimidate you with his wild bucking and running. You must not show any emotion when he does this. Don't change your posture, your voice, just remain in a calm frame and speak as you normally do. He also thinks he can make you move your feet - a game horses love to play. So let him run around you, but try to stay as still as possible while he does so. That way, he expends his energy but you do not and that makes you dominant. Keep him moving until he calms down, then let him either trot or walk. The first few times it might take awhile, but be patient and calm.
Timing his release is what teaches him. Never let him stop while he is "acting up". Make him behave or work. Be firm. Sniffing poop, looking around, not moving off when you say it the first time, are all "acting up". If my horse had stopped to sniff poop I would have popped him with my lunge whip. Not allowed. Turning is also a good way to bring a distracted mind back to you.
I use a 1 - 2 - 3 approach. Ask, Tell, Make. Let's say Hank is trotting and you want him to walk. I would silently DrOp my shoulders and body posture and point my shoulders in front of his nose (ask), if no response, I would verbally say "Walk" and pop the rope halter (tell), if no response, I would really yank on the rope halter with my full body weight and say WALK! and keep the pressure until he slows even the slightest, then release (make). When he does walk, then smile, relax, say "goood boy!" and give him a moment to do as he pleases. Do this consistently and in time he will walk when you DrOp your body language.
From KBR Horse webpage:
"Round penning and longeing are two of the most important activities which you have available to you to establish yourself as the leader in your horse-human partnership. They provide a controlled environment where you can "tune up" the horse's attitude and at the same time establish your dominance in terms which the horse understands and naturally accepts... and more importantly, that the horse naturally and instinctively wants to follow". This webpage is very helpful in teaching round pen and lunging skills: https://www.kbrhorse.net/tra/line01.html
Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2008 - 4:38 pm:
Well today was the first day I was able to try to lunge Hank again. All lungeing apparatus went with me...Whips, chains, long ropes, short ropes...poor guy.
I had hubby disk up arena and make the footing soft so he would move well and be comfortable, so no excuses. No fly mask either.
We started with the 14ft line, he walked off very well, asked for trot and he had a small bucking farting fit (I did let him have at it) After that back to work, he, and especially I did much better (thank you)!!!
He listened VERY well for the most part. I still am sending conflicting messages and have to really work on that. It's very nice to have a horse that is sensitive to body language, but I really have to watch it. I did notice a couple times I stepped in a little towards his haunches and he spun and stopped immediately, not quite what I WANTED, but it is his training, which is not bad, actually it is very good, I just got to remember to concentrate on my moves.
A couple questions
When I moved in towards his middle (accidently) he broke into a canter, Consistently that move made him canter (very nicely). WHY? (part of his previous training)?
A step towards the haunches and a turn of my shoulder brought him to a screeching stop and turn to face me. I did not allow him to come in until I told him too then rewarded. That's right???
His ears were on me at all times he was much more attentive today, but he never really looked at me is that...bad? good? indifferent? He was licking and chewing all the time and seemed very relaxed.
All in All I was Very happy this time. I can see I have let him get away with too much, and I saw one respect issue going on, when I brought him in for the rub and good boys he didn't stop where I would prefer, he basically would walk past me to my shoulder...we did get that straightend out, but I do believe it will be an issue for a few more times.
Thanks for all your help and more help if you have suggestions, I actually enjoyed it, instead of dreading it.
Ribs still aren't good enough to ride
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2008 - 6:49 pm:
Hi Diane, here are my guesses on your questions... we'll see if I have any kind of idea ... lol
1. Canter. Moving to the middle is the go button, as though your leg is on the horse.
2. The turning the shoulder always asks the horse to come to you. You're saying... ok to come to me. Squared shoulders say stay away. I'm pretty sure that's herd dynamics too... watched Monty ... lol
3. ears on you, licking, chewing, relaxed VERY GOOD! Awesome even He does not have to look at you, he can see you... remember they can see almost 360 degrees especially if he has wide set eyes.
First... if you're going to let him have a bucking farting fit, PLEASE use a longer line. Way to easy for him to accidently get you.
Second, how's that doctor appt. coming along ;)
Third, these are my guesses, I know I said that first, but I want to reiterate this because while this works for my horse and others in my barn, I fully realize I may be doing it wrong... lol
Good luck Diane and I'm glad you're having fun with him instead of dreading it.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2008 - 9:28 pm:
Thanks Aileen I believe you are probably right, except I thought as far as lungeing (how do you spell that) the canter cue came from behind, not the middle. Your theory makes very good sense though! Cause actually if I move towards the haunches he stops! Walking was still a challenge, but I did get some nice walk sets from him. What is the walk cue???? I brought my energy down, said easy walk, a small tug on the line. (gotta be careful not to put too much pressure or he will turn!)
HMMM do most people have their own unique signal for walk, trot, canter??? OR is there a standard...if so what are they ?? Obviously Hank knows them but I don't UGGHHH.
No Dr. I am improving weekly, just feels like a deep bruise now. I can almost sneeze pain free now. Don't want to ride until I'm back to 100% and learning to lunge is good for me!
Obviously I need help tho!
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2008 - 10:04 pm:
I'm glad you're feeling better
Re: the canter, I left this part out... I focus my eyes on his barrel (I don't move toward his barrel), where my leg would go for any upward transitions, squeeze the line twice, I don't tug. I think it's sort of a half halt, tells him to be prepared for a change in what I'm asking. If he's going forward he'll rebalance himself before the next transition.
My friend does a sort of Parelli, she stands very tall, shoulders back, eyes on the horse, for downward transitions she does something to minimize herself, I want to say she rounds her shoulders and looks down but I'm not certain. Maybe try, when you ask for the canter or any upward transition, to square your shoulders toward his head/neck/shoulders... Hopefully the guru's will be here shortly to help you out
You know, I asked the lunging aide question a while back. It does vary and I can't remember... will try to look it up. I cluck once for walk or walk on, sshhhhh for "more" in whatever gait he's in, cluck twice for trot or T-rot, kiss for canter or can TER (obviously haven't done the latter two in a while ).
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 5, 2008 - 7:21 am:
Diane ... Lunging is all about body language and body position. Try to maintain a triangle from the horses eye to your body to the "drive line" which is basically the girth area .. not the rear.
Focus on the "drive line" with a body language that says go to transition up ... move slightly in front of the "drive line" with a relaxed, slow down body language to transition down. Moving toward the rear tells the horse to release the rear and turn and face you. He should not come in until your body language "invites" him in.
A common mistake in lunging is focusing on the rear to begin the movement. We get frustrated because the horse won't go around us, and keeps walking in toward us ... when that is exactly what he should be doing in that position. We get frustrated and "reprimand" the horse and he gets more and more confused. He thinks he is doing what you are asking. To begin, I like to exaggerate my body language inviting the horse to move off. I like to think of opening the door with one hand, and closing the door behind the horse with the other hand. If asking the horse to move off to the right, I bump at the eye with my open right hand to get the front end to move away, while encouraging movement with my left hand, all while focusing my pressure at the "drive line". Remember, it is absolutely critical that the horse moves away from you, instead of you moving away from the horse.
To transition up, simply focus pressure on the "drive line" with a body language that says "go". To transition down, move slightly forward of the "drive line" with a relaxed, slow down body language. If I focus on the rear, the horse should release the rear and turn and face me, but not come in until my body language "invites" him in.
Always start with very slight pressure as you want your horse to be as soft as possible. Increase the pressure until you get a positive response, then immediately remove the pressure. Always start with minimum pressure and move up .. never start at the top of pressure scale, and remember, the horse learns from the release of pressure, not the application of pressure. When your horse is doing what you want him to ... QUIT ASKING ... I see a lot of folks who keep swinging the rope or kissing when the horse is already responding. He will never figure out what you want if he doesn't get the release and reward when he gets it right.
Good luck and keep it up. It will be good for you and your horse.
DT
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 5, 2008 - 8:24 am:
OH DENNY Thank YOU, YOU are so right that is it, I had forgotten!!! That IS how he is trained! The drive line YES!!! Darn I can't wait to try it again!!! He also does the "driving game" REALLY well, but I don't remember how to do that either (turned 50 yo yesterday and memory is failing).
Once I get this lungeing down we are going to try that! Hopefully I get it before it snows!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 5, 2008 - 12:45 pm:
There are so many body language/nuances you can employ when longing your horse. You say he pops into canter if you step more toward him? (Did I read that correctly?) This may be previous training. I have my mare trained that if I step closer to her she will "speed up". Course when she's normally out on about 20m of line and then I reel her in close enough that I can take a step and pop her on the rear with the end of the longe whip lash if she needs it, that's where that comes from. ;] So she will just speed up if I take a step closer to her.
So the gaits and somewhat for speed, I use words along with sounds and my body language. This helps to translate to under saddle too. When I want her to trot I first make sure she is ready to trot and then I simply say "trot!", I think of her as trotting and she trots. For canter I time my request on the outside hind as it is flying in the air before it hits the ground because that's the first step of the canter. But again I make sure she is ready to canter before I ask. Then I simply say "canter!" while that outside hind is heading to the ground again while thinking of her cantering and she pops right up into canter. For downward transitions, again, I use words or give a strong half halt on the line at the same time, again thinking of her doing the action. I may also play with my voice, up and sharp/staccato on the upward transitions, softer, slower and downward sing-song on the down transitions. Or sometimes to ask her to just halt from where ever I use the 'brrrrrt!' sound.
If I want her to circle more than she is, I actually turn my body sideways to her (perpendicular) and I step into her haunches. She isn't "western trained" and she does not turn to face me. If I were to face her fully and do the same then yes she would swing haunches away and turn to face me. But by turning my body sideways and stepping into her haunches she will step underneath herself more with her inside hind which causes her to turn inward more, helping her describe a better circle, without her throwing out her haunches.
There's much to longing, and I suppose the disciplines have some variances on approach, etc. but overall it's much the same. The forward concentration/focus is on the girth area, while the hand not holding the line to the head is the "director", whether with whip or end of line or whatever, that's the driving influence. I have stated before If I want Bella to put her head down more I raise the whip tip off the ground (held mostly behind me); if I want a bit more action/forward movement the whip comes up horizontal to the ground held behind her. If I want sharper action from the inside hind I might "flick" the whip end (raise up and put back down very rapidly, still mostly behind me) during that footfall for three strides, as that foot is flying in the air and can be influenced I direct the whip flick to that foot. I can influence any of her four feet in this manner as needed. This way I can help her better balance her self and not lean on any one leg more than the others.
So there is longing to get rid of excess energy and help the horse focus on you before riding, and there is longing to really work the horse, replacing a riding session, to keep the horse in good shape.
And for me often the longing can even be more fun than riding. It is just nice to watch her move and see the changes that can be made by such slight subtleties in my body language. Then I try to transfer that to the saddle.
But yeah, I use words. When I am riding and I want her to change gait I can simply say the word. This helps when I am giving a riding lesson on longe to a new rider. If Bella starts to trot I can bring her quietly back to walk simply saying 'walk'. And if I want her to trot and I don't want the rider to do anything, I can simply ask for trot by saying it. Bringing the whip up and to her doesn't mean "run away from it". To her, it means do more with your legs staying in the same gait you are in now. yes, I can use it to goose her more forward, but of course won't do that with a newbie on board! haha (Unlike some who would do that without warning to the rider.)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 5, 2008 - 5:29 pm:
Thanks WELL again he did very well today...considering. I do understand body language I think. Walking is really the worst part at this point. trot, canter are going very well. He is going left and right willingly, I can switch directions pretty effortlessly...though not perfect, but hey we(I) just started learning so not bad.
Here is what I did to try to get a walk. When I got him to a nice easy trot I would DrOp my energy say easy walk...a very small tug on rope. It wasn't immediate by any means, but he did walk. I think I followed Denny's direction well. I quit asking just let him walk and stayed "quiet". He would walk about half the circle and start into an easy jog without me asking. Once again I repeated above steps, and he would walk half a circle and start an easy jog again...almost at the exact same spot, so I wonder if I do something there I don't realize? I don't think so, but not positive.
Should I just work from this point for a full circle or INSIST he walk somehow, which I don't think will have a good outcome at this point.
Here's what I TRIED.
Soon as he would start to jog I would give a little tug to slow him...didn't work...the reason... he was trained to follow the slightest pressure. turned in.
I brought my energy down real low as Aileen described her friend... head low, no asking...didn't really work well. He was paying attention, there wasn't ignoring going on here, I just don't know the right cue.
The thing that did work was BEFORE he would start to jog, I would bring him in while still walking and rub and tell him good boy. I finally got a full circle that way. Is that what I should build on for the walk????
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