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Discussion on Bitless Bridle... I don't know what to think
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 11, 2008 - 4:44 pm:
Horse backround...for those of you who don't know Hank. He is a very broke to pressure, he can be a total butt head when riding, he hates the bit and is very opinionated. He is an arab/tb/welsh/qh cross. (terrible mix)!!! He CAN be very willing and most of his bad habits are gone...he doesn't buck (for the most part)/rear/run away. Has lost his engine in back and I haven't been able to find it again, he tends to go more inverted than relaxed...with a high head carriage.
He is a horse of many different personalities!(NEVER boring)
SOME of these problems have been brought on by me, but he really seemed to dislike a bit from the beginning. He is a tiny bit parrot mouthed and maybe that's why.
First ride with the Dr. Cooks bitless bridle went very well. He was very responsive to it and seemed very relaxed, turning, stopping, backing was better than with the bit and he really seemed to be coming from behind more. That was just my trial ride with it...walk, trot in the yard and hayfield (which usually he wants to prance in) but didn't even try. As stated above tho he has many personalities and he may have had his good boy suit on that day.
Today we went in the arena with it first, it is quite windy today and I still have a little fear left over from my fall. First I walked him around the arena as we haven't been down there for awhile. At the far side he did a big spook and eye bug out. Which made me even learier.
I decided to bite the bullet and get on, we did some walk, trot and he was VERY good, the brakes work extremely well and everything else was good too. Hank can be rather lazy in the arena and is more "up" when out.
We have to go up that big hill to get out and I REALLY debated whether I should ride him up it, with the bit he gets all goofy and wants to run, buck up the hill, after MANY schooling lessons that this was not allowed he has quit doing it, BUT could I keep him under control with this bridle???? He went up that hill so well I was quite amazed, no fight, no hopping...nothing. I looked down and yup it was Hank under me.
Back over to the hay field for the real test, there is something about the hayfield that gets that boys motor going. In the bit, he would prance some, and just be rather rambunctious....but not what I would consider out of control, "up" is the best word to describe it I guess. We would do circles, ect. to keep his mind on the job at hand, but he never really "relaxed"
Here's how the ride went today in the hay field with the bitless bridle.
Soon as we hit the hay field I expected the prancing to start...it didn't. We walked, trotted a few circles just to make sure I had some sort of control... Just in case! On the circles he wasn't inverted as usual, his bend was very good (for him) he bent at the poll and didn't have his head in the clouds. So I got brave and went a little further up and down some hills ect. he was very good, but what really impressed me was his nice head carriage and his rear end working again.
Next test.... turn around to go back home, Hank can be barn sour, another thing we have worked for years on. He still can get strong going home, nothing terrible a little prancing and reminders to behave occasionally. This behavior can be counted on 99% of the time in varying degrees...when he is alone, with other horses he is fine.
As you are reading this you are probably thinking I have no idea how to ride and all these behaviors are easily dealt with. So at this point I will tell you I have had one of the best trainers ride him for 6 weeks, while I took lessons. This trainer gives clinics all over the midwest, events in the upper levels, and breaks horses. He really is very good!!
After spending sometime with Hank whom he really liked (and actually offered to buy him from me) he said he is one difficult horse to ride. That guy NEVER wore a helmet when riding...but when he rode Hank he had one on!! He helped me tremendously with Hank, but Hank will always be Hank as he said. Over the years we came to a truce and for the MOST part he is a good boy...but the devil always lurks there. I HAVE ridden and broke my own horses with never a problem...this guy is just "special" and honestly one of the reasons I love to ride him.(usually)
That being said, back to the bridle. We turned around to head home and he just mosied along, not even offering a prance or any of his bad boy things. I stopped him half way home to see what his reaction would be and the weirdest thing happened, he stopped on a dime, stood square, with his poll bent. I thought for a moment he was going to rear...one thing he NEVER EVER does. At this point I still don't know why he did that, of course that's GOOD, but he never does that.(stands nicely with his poll bent) There is always resistance in that boys jaw when the bit is in. Even with the sidepull he had never done this. It was like he was at attention...yet calm. VERY NICE!!! Off we go again, took him up the side of the road where he always tries to sidle into the cornfield (I was trying all the places I know he will usually try something) he is very predictable in that aspect! He DID try to sidle into the corn field (he loves corn) one small tug on the rein and a little leg and that was the end of it!!!usually I have to keep my leg on him strong and tip his nose to get by the corn field. HMMMMM. Came back home with no prancing, loose rein (I really do try to give him the benefit of doubt) no fake spooking (yes he fake spooks) and walked right up to the tie rack cool as a cucumber. We backed, did a little turn on the haunches and stood there all pretty again. Remarkable!
The thing with Hank is maybe he was just in his good boy suit again, I don't know whether I should trust him. Quite frankly this good behavior kinda scared me!!! I couldn't get the nerve up to canter with the memory of the rib thing still fresh in my mind and still slightly achey. I'm quite curious to see how this bridle plays out with Mr. Personality.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 11, 2008 - 6:27 pm:
Diane,
Would you post a picture of Hank wearing this bridle? I think your ride was very impressive! The $100,000.00 question of course is will this be what he does every time? Did you take away a pain issue I wonder?
I remember trying to make a "bitless bridle" after reading about it. I didn't have positive results myself, but of course maybe home made wasn't the same as what you purchased?
I sometimes wonder though if horses have ESP. Yesterday, goofy gills Tango was almost stoic with scary plastic flapping around him. And Gem didn't so much as give one little crow hop on the lunge line. I was really thinking "O.K., you both better shape up, or you are out OF HERE! The ground isn't froze yet...Understand?"
So, just curious, were you thinking something like "I paid X amount of bucks for thing, pleeease, PLEASE, Hank, be a good boy?" LOL!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 11, 2008 - 7:44 pm:
Diane - what was the bit you were using before you got the bitless bridle? Is it the Dr. Cooks bridle? (I believe there are other bitless bridles out there).
I have often thought of a bitless bridle for my grandson or my daughter-in-law, but then I read that a bitless bridle can be quite harsh in the wrong hands (in other words, hands that are still unsteady). I also checked ebay for a while, and was surprised that even used Dr. Cooks bridles were priced quite high.
My gelding sounds a little bit like Hank - the worst part is the last half mile toward home, after my mare starts calling to him.
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 11, 2008 - 8:32 pm:
Angie, I can say the $ factor isn't there....son bought it for me for my birthday. I could hang it in my tack shed and he would be none the wiser, he lives in Co.
Actually I was kind of nervous, which usually makes him an even bigger butt head! The thought of hitting the ground again with these ribs puts a little fear in me yet.
The only thing that makes me THINK it was the bridle was his demeanor and "carriage" he is almost always tense and inverted with the bit...he was not so much so with the side pull.
My hands are not the greatest, yet I wouldn't consider myself a novice either in that department. I don't think they are so bad as to invert him all the time. My other horse Sam is fine and he's a touchy arab. It could be a pain issue, but not sure.
I will get a pic of him tomorrow, I am going to try it again, 3 good rides in a row would almost be enough to convince me. It is weird bridle the reins cross under the jaw. Hank had no problem knowing what I wanted tho.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 11, 2008 - 8:47 pm:
Lilo yes it is the Dr. Cooks. I have tried about every snaffle bit there is D-ring, O-ring, egg butt, french link, Dr. Bristol, thin, thick, rubber, copper, sweet iron ect. as far as bits he went best in an O-ring.
The Dr. Cooks now comes in a western style, and is a little cheaper than it's english counter part. Still expensive tho, I have always wanted to try one. Maybe we can do an experiment with the UMMMM challenged horses on HA and ship it around .
Tomorrow will tell the tale with Hank I think, I'm sure he won't always be perfect, but if he toned it down a bit and keeps moving nice I will be very happy.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 11, 2008 - 9:04 pm:
Diane, I've had very good results with the Dr. Cook bridle. The horses I tried it on were very happy in it and I felt that I had good control. You are right - they are a bit pricey and kind of strange looking.
Earlier this year a friend called and asked if one of her students could try using an old hackamore that I had hanging out in my barn. I said sure, just come on by. I had left for an errand but had told my husband that my friend and her student would be coming.
Well, when they got here it was the little girl and her non-horsey mom. Now my husband has learned a lot about horses in the twenty-eight years of our marriage but he could not tell a hackamore from any other piece of bridleware to save his soul, but the little girl assured him that she knew what a hackamore looked like.
So imagine my surprise when I found the noseband of my Dr. Cook bridle missing! It was the one piece of equipment out in the barn that I really cared about. But it all worked out. I got the noseband back in good shape and I guess it worked fine on her little horse as a hackamore too!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 7:34 am:
Angie this add on E-bay has very good pics of the bridle, way better than I could take.
https://cgi.ebay.com/DR-COOK-BITLESS-BRIDLE-WESTERN-LEATHER-HEADSTALL-New_W0QQite mZ150296694522QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item150296694522&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
When you scroll down it shows the crossed over reins well.
It would seem this bridle has a 30 day money back guarantee if you don't like it (you pay shipping)
Jo Ann have you used it on any "challenging" horses?
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New Member:
annimule
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 8:35 am:
Hi All, I have been lurking for awhile, but am going to jump in and introduce myself now as I have used a bitless bridle on one of my mammoth donkeys.
I run a 501 (c) (3) non profit donkey and mule rescue in NH. I ride mammoth donkeys. I have three, one is a bit slight and my niece rides him.
I have used a bitless bridle with good luck on one of these donkeys. Donkeys have huge heads and a common avoidance technique of theirs is to set their head to the side a bit, and just keep on going! I think the secret is either starting their training in the bitless bridle and sticking with it, or using it on an already well trained animal who generally respects pressure. However, I just got an email from a donkey riding friend this morning saying that her donkey was ridden by a friend yesterday, using the bitless bridle, and the donkey took off into the woods with his rider.
BUT she has been riding him in a bridle with a bit and has not ridden him in a couple of months.
I have another friend who is a mule rider who uses a bridle called a Nurtural...I know she is using them to promote them for the makers. I will try to find out more about them.
I have been enjoying all the discussions on this list.
Best regards,
Ann
Ann W. Firestone, President
Save Your Ass Long Ear Rescue
at Broomtail Farm
23 Saw Mill Road
S. Acworth, NH 03607
www.saveyourassrescue.org
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 9:34 am:
Ann W. Welcome to HA!... That is interesting, I have wondered if Hank adjusted to the bridle so well because he is broke to pressure and was ridden in a Parelli halter when he was "broke out". He does go well in a sidepull, but I couldn't quite "put him together" in one...he was Very heavy on the forehand, so I went to the snaffle bit...which really wasn't any better!
Hank is quite opinionated and not beyond any kind of bad behavior. I am very curious if his bad boy traits settle down...he was also very capable of his behavior in the side pull, which really makes me think it isn't completely my hands.
I wonder if the poll pressure is the difference?
I can't wait to test today again....don't know if I'll be brave enough to canter yet!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 10:55 am:
Welcome Ann W.. I would love to see a photo of your mammoth mules...
Diane what is a side pull ??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 11:14 am:
Ann a side pull is quite a bit like a halter with the reins attached to the sides, except the nose band is usually rolled and it has a chin strap. It works off pressure on the nose....but is VERY VERY gentle....not like a hackamore at all.
It gives you a little more control than a halter and lead.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 1:40 pm:
Diane E., following this close as I want 4 bitless bridles, have to find the money fairy somewhere? It is Hank's relaxtion that I find very good. Zarr has dragons in his world more than most and he is the one I want to have the first bridle.He is in sidepull right now. If I put one on Whiskey he might fall asleep!
Once you really relax and know it is Hank you are on and not a changling just think how wonderful your riding will be! Lots of points by the way to a really smart son!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 3:26 pm:
Diane, not sure how the bitless bridle compares to the Parelli humane hackamore, which is essentially a rope halter. My horse does great in the Parelli halter and has terrific head carriage in it too. I find it enhances communication. One qualifier though -- riding on some large open acreage near home one day (1000 acres plus) another rider decided to race us up a hill and along a long flat open stretch. Lance feels very comfortable and secure in the environment where we were so was not at all hesitant to leave the other horses. He decided that he was not going to stop and that we were going to run toward one or another of the exit gates, which were both quite a long distance away. Because he was going so fast I did not dare to pull his head around too far for fear of making him fall over and was also a bit worried that he might buck since he was so wound up. Thankfully, I had not too long before gotten off and tightened the girth. We went around and around at high speed and I could not get him to stop. Baling off was something I began considering but since we were going so fast I knew that I would likely have a very bad landing and perhaps break many bones. I worked and worked in huge circles, praying that we wouldn't find any holes, and finally got him to stop. So, be sure that you don't let things get out of control until you have had a lot of experience with the bridle. Be sure that you know that Hank will stop for you if you ask him in any given situation. (When I instead ride him with a bit it is a D ring and I ride with a very light hand).
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 4:32 pm:
Today was the day for a good test, I even considered not riding...The wind is blowing very hard, the bots and those biting Japanese beetles are really swarming today and Hank like most horses hates them. The regular flies are horrible too! He was a nut case just out in the pasture.
I harrowed the arena really well so if I did fall hopefully it wouldn't hurt as bad! Set up the poles and barrels, got Hank and down to the arena we went. We just walked, trotted, practiced stop...which is VERY good. Once again his head was NOT in the clouds, his bend was good and stop magnificent....but I could tell his bad boy suit was on today!
We trotted the poles and he did better than with the bit. We trotted some more and at the end of the arena where he spooked yesterday, He did it again....Yesterday I was leading him...today I was on board. The spook was not a fierce one and he came right back, hardly moved!!!
I know this horse well enough to tell you had he been bitted it would have been quite different. I did finally see the thing that has been spooking him, a white plastic bag stuck in the weeds flapping in the wind.
After about half an hour of zig-zagging poles, walk, trotting circles, I decided to try a canter, it went very well and he was terribly relaxed! This whole ride he had his head where it belonged and was using his hind end pretty well.
He responded well to my seat and legs...we did some very nice half passes. I do not hardly need to use the reins, he listens to me without the bit. I KNOW he responds to seat very well, or at least he used too. It's like with a bit I hardly existed. Without it he is very attentive to my every move. For backing all I had to do was switch my weight. For stopping sit deeper. He was almost too responsive. Once when trotting down the middle of the arena I had more pressure on one leg(my injured knee makes me do that sometimes) his response was to start half passing without missing a beat.....NOW there's my old responsive Hank I once knew!
I could feel bad boy in there....he did come to the surface, but was not reacted upon....the thought was definitely there!!!
He went up the hill very well again, I was going to try the hayfield but decided not to push my luck. Whether bad boy would have showed up I don't know....he was lurking at the surface.
My conclusion so far is Hank is for sure much more responsive...no doubt. He is also much more relaxed, his whoa is very impressive.I have NO doubt what so ever in the bit he would have been a total A$$ today...NO doubt.
I'm still not sure how he would be in an emergency situation, however lets' face it a bit isn't going to stop a run away horse any faster if they really want to go!!! I am not sure if the prancing will stop on the way home have to test that a bit more.
So far overall I'm very very satisfied, when I get a few more rides under my belt I will let you know how he is doing.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 5:44 pm:
Glad you had another positive experience today on Hank.
I may just try to make one of these bitless wonders after seeing the pics on E-Bay (thanks for link)I am thinking using the side pull with extra straps under it might work..hmmmm...I have a side pull with a bit too.
I also was wondering, after reading Vicki's story, could you ride with the bitless bridle, and keep a snaffle in the horses mouth also? Have that on a very thin headstall under the bitless? Of course Don't USE the bit, unless it's an emergency, and you need to do the Calvalry/pulley, stop now da***t approach! It might take some doing for the horse to realise he's just holding the bit, and it's not being used, and maybe it would get the horse relaxed enough to go back to being rode with the bit?
Interesting to ponder, if some one tries the "almost double bridle" report back and let us know how it works.
Drats, I don't think my side pull fits my 2 big headed horses come to think of it.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 6:10 pm:
Angie I have ridden Hank in a side pull and the bitted side pull. I'm pretty sure adding the reins won't work like the bitless wonder. I was fussing with it today to see just how it does work.
When you pull the reins back it puts poll pressure on because of the way it's rigged. If you did the same to a side pull I think you would still have nose pressure?? When you pull the left rein it puts pressure on the right side of the head and pushes it. Same thing done to a side pull I think would confuse the horse, because you would have pushing and pulling going on.
IF your horses are broke to move away from pressure I don't think you would have any problems with this bridle. Hanks brakes seem to be way better in this than any bit....he just leaned on the bit and braced. I don't know why I don't trust it yet, I think it has to do more with my Fall than the bitless wonder. I rode him everywhere in a side pull, but he did still prance and act like an idiot in that, I am real curious to see if the prancing idiot side of him will be mellowed in this.
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Member:
suzym
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 7:39 pm:
I'm interested in this discussion too. Here is Indy in the sidepull I'm currently using. He goes very well in this - and LOVES it - but sometimes when he wants his way he can pull quite hard. I can control him, but it does take a toll on my hands and back when he does that. Don't know about an emergency situation - so far that hasn't come up.
This is very soft and mild. I was just wondering if he might stay softer in a bitless bridle of some kind. He doesn't like bits either. 
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 9:15 pm:
Great report Diane. I wouldn't say that I have used the Dr. Cook bridle on a "challenging" horse. But I did use it on one who's well trained but a bit of a "Nervous Nellie." She very responsive, but anytime she gets overwrought she shakes her head and flaps her lips.
I tried a Parelli halter on her just out of curiosity and she seemed to like not having a bit. I had always liked the idea of the bitless bridles, and decided to get one. She really liked it, and like Hank, is more relaxed in it.
I then tried it on my gelding who is Parelli trained, and he liked it too, going better in it than he goes in his snaffle.
Suzanne, thanks for the pic. I had been curious about side pulls too. Now I know what they look like. Cute horse! You both look happy and relaxed. 
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 9:49 pm:
Diane,
That's interesting. I think I tried it once with the side pull set up, and seems I put a ring under the jaw where the reins crossed, I thought the Dr. Cook bridle had a ring under there at one time?
I am wondering if the key here for Hank at least, isn't the pressure points at the poll, maybe it's set up a tad different than the pressure points being used there with a shanked bit? And of course that fact that he has no bit to annoy him?
I've been following your story with this because Cody is so sensitive to the bit. He goes better in a nice 3 part, than anything with a curb strap, it's like it's overload for him. He may be a good one to try a bitless on, to keep him soft.
I hope your good luck continues! Relax and enjoy it, don't be looking for any acting up, or you'll find Hank will try hard to give you acting up, lol! I always find if I think something will happen, it most likely will!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 10:44 pm:
Suzanne just from my very short experience with it, I would say it offers much more "softness" HMMMM that's not the right term. I'm not sure what the term would be, but compared to a side pull (with Hank) he is much more responsive in the BB. He isn't as "heavy" as he was in a side pull.
From my very limited experience I think that it offers much more "lightness" (that's the word I was looking for) than the side pull. I really need to try it more to form an accurate opinion. I'll keep you updated as we progress (tho the weather is suppose to turn on us this week)
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 8:52 am:
Sounds really interesting, Diane. But isn't it difficult to rethink your aiding? For example, to keep a steady contact on the outside rein, do you use your inside hand? I think it would take me a decade to un-learn my automatic responses! Maybe I'm missing something here!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 12:45 pm:
LL no that is the funny thing the aids are the same??? Hank direct reins and neck reins...He doesn't neck rein the greatest, but I could see that would be more difficult(maybe). Direct reining is fine. I fiddled with it to see how that could be and as it pushes the horses head it also allows some pull...it is a weird contraption
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 3:28 pm:
Thanks to all who posted here. Very interesting and I will especially like to hear how this goes with Hank and for others in the future.
You are right about a bit not stopping a runaway horse, Diane. But when that sobering moment of panic sets in that your horse seems to have totally forgotten you are there, equipment that one is not very experienced with leaves the rider in a more vulnerable position. I am accustomed to calmly using a series of slow down cues with Lance to get his attention back, and also if necessary, with the bit I could turn him in the opposite direction if needed and he would then stop. When doing that with the halter, he just kept going every time he was turned! Actually, I think that he was having a grand time.
Every couple of years or so, by grabbing the bit and ignoring me, Lance reminds me that 99.999 percent of the time he goes along perfectly well and that the bit is not the reason for this, but rather his good nature to be an agreeable and good partner.
When I rode Lance on the narrow mountain trails in the rope halter I actually felt much safer than with the bit because I felt that I had better overall control of every part of his body. He seems as you said about Hank, much more "responsive."
The times I've run into any scary moments with the rope halter had to do with actions of others around me on group rides, racing past me, and I have maintained good control each time except that one time when I had allowed, and perhaps encouraged him to get into racing mode.
One thing that I also have had to work on with the halter is that if tension is building during a ride to remember not to tighten up and keep more pressure on the horse out of nervousness. When going well, give and maintain the release, but check if he begins to speed up without permission. Due to more past experience with the bit, it is easier for me to stay out of his mouth than it is for me to stay off of his face if I get nervous, which is something that very rarely happens to me when riding.
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Member:
jivete
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 3:30 pm:
I just wanted to add that I love my bitless bridle (I use a cross-under design like Dr. Cooks). My bridle was stolen a month or so ago and I started using the bitless as a temporary fix until I bought a new bridle. But my mare went so much better in it I haven't bothered buying a new snaffle bridle.
When I tried it before early in her training she was fine with it but it wasn't for arena work. Now she's better in it than the snaffle. We ride low level dressage between training and first level.
Just thought I'd add my experience.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 5:26 pm:
Carla do you find the aids are any different riding dressage with the bb??? I didn't see any difference, but a dressage rider I'm not! .
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 7:46 pm:
Diane, I can still do the basic dressage moves with Lance and I think that it depends upon the horse and rider as to how much refinement can be attained without the bit as an aid. I have watched great dressage with no bridle.
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Member:
jivete
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 8:53 am:
Not really Diane. Riding into the outside rein doesn't really work since the outside rein pushes on the inside nose/cheek. Otherwise though, it feels about the same. My goal is always to ride with as light as contact as possible though, so it may be different for others and of course, for more advanced riders.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 6:45 pm:
https://www.strasserhoofcare.org/articles_more.php?search_fd0=21
Diane,
This is a good article by Dr. Cook. Yes, there is tons of info here about hoof care too, but I won't get into that.
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Member:
suzym
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 6:54 pm:
I'm glad you enjoyed the picture, Jo Ann. Indy is a very sweet, relaxed horse. He's a calmer character than I am in fact.
However, he does have the endless energy and enthusiasm of the Morgan, and I was wondering if the bitless would add "lightness" when I'm exhausted and he's just getting warmed up.
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Member:
cpacer
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 10:01 pm:
I have a Dr. Cooks bitless bridle that I would sell if anyone wanted it. It's one of the earlier models, back when they made them out of harness leather (but it's pretty soft since I put neatsfoot oil on it). I only used it a handful of times, but would sell for $50 plus shipping--I can upload pics!
Sorry I can't answer your question Diane, but I will disclose that my horse didn't think the bitless released pressure quickly enough.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 10:33 pm:
cp is yours the english version? Mine (western) is made of leather from the good ol' USA, I think it is one of the very few things I have seen in awhile that said that  . I would love to see pics of it, one can never have too many horse things! And it would be a lot cheaper than buying a new one if someone was interested.
That is one thing I have not noticed (very limited trial) the release seems immediate to me. With the reins having that extension thing, it almost has to be doesn't it?
I'm VERY sure the BB won't work for every horse, I'm not even sure it will work for me, but so far I have been very impressed.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 11:06 pm:
Suzanne, your words: "the endless energy and enthusiasm of the Morgan" sure made me smile. Yes that is a very good description of the breed. Little energizer bunnies they are!
My mare is a Morgan as well, although by the time I got around to trying the Dr. Cooks she had mellowed considerably. Still, she was so much happier in it, I wish I had tried one sooner.
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Member:
kshayden
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 10:29 am:
CP, if you have the western version, I will definately purchase it for my filly. I have been wanting one but unable to afford to buy something that may or may not work. I started her in a full cheek and then a friend told me to just ride her in a halter - she does great in a halter. Little QH cutter bred girl that is really very easy but lately she has been laying her ears back and biting my stirrup or toe when asking her to turn to the right - I have a dentist coming out in 2 weeks but I also put the full cheek back on her and I feel she might be better with a bitless bridle.
My email addy is kshayden@ucdavis.edu.
Thanks so much for this opportunity. Kathy
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Member:
cpacer
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 12:51 pm:
I think it is a western one, but it doesn't have their reins on it. I put on some thin roping reins that are probably too short for most people/horses (I think 8 ft).
Kathy, I'll send you an email to talk more. Here's a photo for reference, modeled by my Lucky boy (I'm not sure I have the nose band in the right place)...
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Member:
kshayden
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 2:11 pm:
Thanks Joyce. It's perfect. I have plenty of reins.
Kathy kshayden@ucdavis.edu
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 2:48 pm:
Kathy just for reference the instructions do say to place the noseband 1.5 to 2 in. above where the bit would be. Also you are suppose to only get one flat finger under the nose band....Didn't know if cp still had the instructions with it. I have read if it isn't fitted right, it won't work as well.
I think there are instructions on the web site if you need them.
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New Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 6:08 pm:
I enjoyed the Strasser article.
Thanks for posting the link
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 10:17 am:
I think Dr. Cook"s is the best invention! I have two of them. I don't use it all the time, mostly at-home schooling I use a snaffle. But in groups or exciting situations I love it.
I hate having to lay on a horse's mouth, and when they are very enthusiastic as they are on a hunt, etc. I find I get a better, calmer response with the bitless.
I think if one is having trouble with it, basic training may be the issue. An untrained horse is going to be inconsistent no matter what the equipment.
I have NEVER had a problem with brakes using it, in fact the opposite. The horses seem to stay rounder rather than popping heads up and getting above the bit.
I happen to love the synthetic ones. Hard to tell its not leather, but you can just DrOp it in a bucket after riding and pull it out clean.
Makes me wish someone could come up with the perfect saddle....
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 12:51 pm:
What about the treeless saddle (to go with the bitless bridle)? Has anyone tried one?
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 2:52 pm:
Hi LL,
I was a tester for the prototype Ansur saddle (I own serial #48), and also own a treeless western saddle.
Most horses like the treeless saddles, and the newer ones solve some of the early problems (no gullet, and a bit of a launching pad effect).
They can be handy for lots of horses and situations, but I'm not one who has religion on the subject. You absolutely need outstanding lateral balance as a rider or the saddle will slip.
There are some horses that don't do well in a treeless. We invented saddle trees for valid reasons, and they aren't necessarily a bad thing!
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Member:
cpacer
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 4:17 pm:
Treeless? I just sold one of those too! Mine was the Freeform Treeless, English version. It was just about the most comfortable thing you could ever sit in, but unfortunately I finally had to accept the fact that it didn't really match the horses build it was intended for--he's very petite, and even with the smallest dressage girth there was just too much space.
Actually I'm not really sure if the saddle fit me correctly either--it's pretty padded all the way down the sides and unless I DrOpped my stirrups completely my calves would push my knees out. Maybe if I had a longer thigh it wouldn't have been a problem.
I have a few friends with the Bob Marshall Treeless in both the Endurance style and the Western styles and they absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE theirs! You really can feel the muscles of your horse when you ride in them.
I've seen one of the newer types of treeless saddles out there that has the padding on either side of the spine built in, kind of like a tree I guess, but maybe softer? Not really sure.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 6:04 pm:
WOW, The bean fields have been picked! Decided to try Hank in there. Today is cool, breezy and really a beautiful day, the horses were "feeling their oats" for sure. I could tell when I called them up his motor was in high gear..
Got him out and saddled, we had to have a bit of a "talk" during that process even. Walked him around a bit, before the final cinching, and what a MONSTER! We had another "chat" and I felt I finally had his attention..
Bean field riding is usually quite a challenge...soft ground (happy feet)...right across from the house so Sam screams bloody murder at him....rattling corn on one side....beautiful green hayfield (that he would love to get a bite of) on the other side.
I was VERY tense...I really need some therapy on how to get over that Fall last Mo, it's haunting me terribly .
I KNEW I was riding terribly, leaning forward, no leg, not breathing ect...you get the picture!
I am so IMPRESSED with his behavior, we walked, trotted the whole length of the bean field (very long) goes from out road way over to the next road. When we were about half way over, I heard it coming!!! four wheelers and kids were in the bean field racing around too. We made it past them with a half of a head toss! NOW from experience the turn back home can be quite a challenge, I was actually scared to turn around (anyone a riding therapist)?
So I stopped him and stood there and even considered getting off and walking him home. He had given me absolutely no reason to be scared. By the way head carriage, stride,brakes were all WONDERFUL.
He is ALWAYS strong coming home in the bean field, especially when idiot Sam is screaming his head off. I CAN count on 100% of the time head in the air, dancing and prancing and an occasional gleeful buck.
He did lift his head, and started to prance, sat my butt down little tug on the reins and that boy settled right down and walked !! He had only taken about 2 prance steps.
OK so I decided to push my luck (even tho I was riding worse than a 2 yr. old) and asked for a trot, OMG his head stayed down and he did one of his nicest trots EVER!!! Came right back down to walk when asked. We had to go up a pretty steep hill and I could feel the bucky boy in there, but he stayed hidden and we did a very nice trot instead up it. I can't tell you what a nice ride it was. The prancing creeped up one more time before done 2 steps and back to relax. In the hour ride I had 4 prance steps and a half hearted head toss. I can't say he has EVER been that good in the bean field. Good boy suit was not there today, he was definitely Hank today...VERY IMPRESSED (yet not convinced)
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 6:30 pm:
Diane,
W*W! I am so happy you had such a great ride! Now, relax, and quit worrying about all the things that might happen!
BTW, your description of the bean field got me longing for the days I lived in farm country. I loved riding in the bean fields, and even the corn fields after they were picked. I noticed one corn field today, about 15 miles from our place, and thought, hey that would be interesting for Tango...hahahha, see if he would enter the scary crackling dried corn.
It sounds like Hank is just as happy as you are with the bitless bridle. WA HOO!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 7:01 pm:
Angie I love to ride the bean fields and corn fields. The bean field is just a like a rolling race track. Guess that's why the motor gets going.
Here's a pic of it from our house it goes on and on.
How did that turn out so biG???
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 7:45 pm:
OH WOW!! Yup, looks like southern MN where I grew up and rode as a teenager.
I have like NO open spaces to ride at all around here. Of course you don't have hard woods to ride in either I bet? Man, I would love to trot and lope down that field, I have a gravel road to ride on if I want to go faster than a trot, then I have to worry about logging trucks, ATV's, and idiots in general that don't think they need to slow down. And the ditches are not nice, people dump fun things in them like bed springs.
Ride Hank down that daily and he'll loose a few pounds!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 8:21 pm:
Diane, in your next life you should be a pro photographer. I love you pictures! Great one of the farm fields.
I've been reading these posts with interest. My one and only experience with both a bitless bridle and treeless saddle were a year ago at Ilona's and I was less than impressed if truth be told. It sure sounds like the bitless bridle, at least, is making Hank happy though.
I certainly relate to your tenseness, Diane. I think it will just take time. Maybe try some breathing exercises first and during your ride, or humming. If you sing like I do, you don't want to sing. If you do, then Hank will be tense!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 8:46 pm:
LOL Sara I used to sing home home on the range to Hank when he was younger, didn't seem to work! Probably my voice...will try humming. This isn't my first tumble from a horse, so I don't know why this one is affecting me like this. It really is bad! Were the bridles you used a "true bitlesss bridle" The cross over reins? This thing SEEMS to have some magical powers on Hank...so far.
Angie we have the best of all worlds here,(minus winter) hardwood forrests are abundant, I can ride in one right next to us all the way to the Mississippi River. It's quite a challenging ride though and something I won't do alone anymore. I have had Hank in there and he seemed to like the woods real well, our pasture is rather woody too so he is used to it. Hills, woods, fields, and great hunting, maybe you could talk hubby into moving here so I'd have someone to ride with!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 7:18 am:
Diane,
Anywheres a little farther south of here sounds good to me, I always said I was moving south when I was a kid growing up in MN. Love brought me east and north though! LOL! I'd love that challenge of riding right to the big Mississippi River! I love the woods, and hills, we don't have much for hills here.
Can't wait to travel next summer, have to hit IL, Indiana, a stop at Holly's of course, and maybe end up in Utah? Or we can go east, and wave to Fran, & Erika as we go by!
I always sing when I am riding, or at least hum. It keeps me relaxed and I don't start breathing shallow. I know I can't carry a tune but the horses never complain. I just hope I've never been crooning to a well hidden hunter!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 9:46 am:
I am actually tempted to try my hand at ebay to snag a bitless Dr. Cooks bridle. They are offered at full price by many, but, there are also auctions. I remember Ilona talking about using treeless Bob Marshall saddles and (I believe) Dr. Cooks bitless bridles on her gaited horses.
Sara - since you had experience at Ilona's - what was it that led you to the comment: "less than impressed". Were you able to neck rein or did you have to single rein?
Diane - I can relate to your caution. That fall really caused you some serious pain, and you are trying out new equipment and are not sure how Hank will respond. So far, so good! Hope it continues like that for you.
Lilo
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 10:46 am:
Hmmm. I've heard that treeless saddles are prone to slip if you mount from the ground, as is sometimes necessary. On the plus side, I suppose they're nice and light.
I agree, Elizabeth: surely trees are GOOD, back-protecting things, but I have a friend who's just bought two treeless saddles for her horses, and she's thrilled with them.
Does seem that a bitless bridle and a treeless saddle were made for each other!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 10:48 am:
....Or do they result in a riderless horse??!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 11:01 am:
LL, that would be a great next step, the horse not needing to have a rider when going natural! It would be great if the fat ones could exercise themselves while I'm working!!!
PS I know what you meant, but that just popped in my head!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 11:36 am:
One thing to look for on Ebay is the Bob Marshall treeless made by Circle Y. That's the one I have, and it is very much like a real saddle, except for not having the rigid tree. I wish Circle Y still put them out, because IMO the rest of the treeless saddles are not made as well. Mine has a very normal cantle and pommel, unlike some that are soft or stuffed or whatever.
Be prepared for sticker shock if you do run across one, they all start at prices way over what I paid for mine new, which I think was $800.00 waaay back when.
Mine fits Cody the best, who has a very normal back with good withers. On Tango, who is wider and more rounded, it seems to want to creep forward. It's probably too small for him but it's all I have for him that is close.
I don't think it slides around any more than a treed saddle, if you have a felt pad under it, and a good grippy cinch.
If anyone notices one on Ebay, and you are not bidding on it, (The BMSport by Circle Y) let me know! I'd love another one if one came up. If it's 15" or bigger.
This is what it looks like, it's just sitting on Cody's back, I was returning the pad and taking pictures to show measurements.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 12:07 pm:
Angie-- you can have mine! It's too long for my short-coupled horses (rigged for training though, with "rube rings" on either side of the horn for driving under saddle). E-mail me if you're interested, and I'll take some pictures. It has some dings but is sound, and just taking up room in my barn.
You can mount from the ground with a treeless... sometimes... with a breastplate. You need to watch the urge to over-tighten the girth though. And yes-- if something wants to launch you, the saddle can give you an extra little shove.
I have noticed also that the saddle can interfere with the timing of aids, especially at trot, with a big-moving horse. I don't consider them useful for anything above training level in dressage, though I know people have ridden in them all the way to FEI. Good for them, or maybe their horses are just better suited.
That being said, my competition saddle is almost treeless, so there are a lot of "partially-treed" saddles out there that seem to be a nice compromise.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 5:51 pm:
Hmmm maybe we should have a tack swap thread! One mans junk is anothers treasure. I have a few things to sell....some things are pretty new. I have like 3 western saddles I need to part with, some bridles ect. Just been to lazy to advertise them.
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Member:
suzym
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Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2008 - 7:24 pm:
Jo Ann ~
Morgans are indeed Energizer bunnies!
They are also irrepressible clowns.
Suzy
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2008 - 9:46 pm:
LOL! Great photo! Thanks for sharing
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2008 - 11:25 pm:
Diane, great idea about the tack swap!!
Suzy, sure that's not an Arabian? A couple of mine do that if they don't like what's in their feed tub.
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Member:
suzym
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 7:49 pm:
Hi Sara ~
Nope, he's a Morgan through and through. Here he was just playing with the empty muck bucket. He LOVES to do stuff like that.
Here is the next behavior he offered...
Nothing like a little help around the barn.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 6:45 pm:
Oh! I love a horse who cleans his own stall!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 6:49 pm:
And I love the idea of tack swap. Angie you're a genius...now, just put it all together will you?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 8:16 am:
Erika,
It was Diane's idea, although I know I am a genius, thank you very much.
Now both you and Sara get me and Diane confused on here. Hmmmm....CRS STINKS! LOL!
I agree though, DrO could put a section for swapping tack, and I would suggest a section for hoof pictures for those that do our own and want to share and ask questions.
DrO?
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Member:
kathrynr
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 11:49 am:
Love the tack swap idea as well - how is it that we acquire so much STUFF?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 4:34 pm:
The last time I was on Hank was my bean field report above Oct.16th...My ribs are finally 95% and it is VERY nice out!
Dilemma #1 am I stupid enough to try the bitless again since he hasn't been touched for 5 weeks.
# 2 am I stupid enough to take him over to the bean field race track and crunchy corn fields?
# 3 am I stupid enough to not lunge him or anything else and just go
Why of course I am!
And I had a pretty good ride! He does listen to the bitless wonder very well, I could tell he has been ignored for 5 weeks, but over all he was good.
Prancing is one thing I am especially happy about.
He is very easy to bring down and make him stop with the bitless wonder. With the bit it seemed prancing led to an almost out of control idiot! That really has seems to be "cured"..Once again stop and back was good. We trotted quite a bit...but I wasn't quite stupid enough to try a canter on a very fresh horse especially in the wide open fields! He really does seem to carry himself much better also, which is very nice.
On the way back home we got in our yard and one of our big red corn wagons started slowly rolling backwards. Well that elicited a a leap through the air and a spin to see what the He$$ was going on This part is hard to explain, but those of you with "horned ones" will know exactly what I'm saying. When Hank does that type of spook it is usually an excuse to act like an A$$! Like I'm leaping through the air so I my as well throw in a buck, twirl, scoot really fast forward, leap again and take a 90 degree turn and see if mom is still on. (We should have a horse swap, every one should experience a "horned one" once in their life) Any way He did his leap through the air, spin to see the BIG RED wagon rolling by itself and stopped! I could feel the "it's a perfect time to loose my mind excuse" but he didn't Honestly it took me by surprise that he didn't take advantage of the situation.
Someone else with a "horned one" really needs to try this, I don't know if Hank is being good because of the bridle or because he wants too.
Still don't trust it! OR him!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 7:38 pm:
Ah shucks Diane, Willow used to do moves like that in her younger day. I remember getting my new-guaranteed-I-won't-fall-out-of-this-saddle, and on the 2nd ride she did the leap, scoot, triple axle manuever and I ended up on the ground, hubby looking on in amazement the while his horse barely flicked an ear! NEVER take new tack for granted, lol!
Now, I have a question for you Diane:
Have you been feeding that MannProGlow stuff all along? I tell ya, I started mine on it after reading one of your posts on it, and I swear, all of them have become horned ones! Every day I am trudging through the snow, lugging a bale, and I've got 4 horses racing around me, hoofs flying every which way. And I thought of you and Hank....hmmmm....? Maybe that stuff is laced with caffeine?!
Glad your ride went well and the bitless is still working out for you both.
Horse swap? O.k., who wants Tango?! Actually he's been wearing all kinds of plastic and doing well, just need a volunteer for those first few(hundred) rides!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 8:24 pm:
Angie, they have been on the sho-glo about 6 weeks I think,and actually seem a little more "mellow" Hank had his horns when he hit the ground 11 years ago
I have noticed they have been having "mood swings" with the weather. Thankfully no snow on the ground here yet, but the other day we had about an inch with a strong wind and talk about wound up!!! The days it is sunny and not windy, they stand around basking in the sun and grazing peacefully.
I know also once there is snow on the ground Hank gets bored, because there isn't much grazing and they stand around waiting for me to feed....watch out then!! Sometimes I throw a couple leafs of hay over the fence until they settle down. I think it's kind of a seasonal transition making them nuts until they settle into the routine. Same thing happens in the spring it seems when the grass starts growing.
Stay safe dodging those flying hooves!
I think your hoof thread idea is good!!!!!
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 8:18 am:
Diane and Angie, I love the idea of a horse swap so everyone can experience a horned one. There's only one problem I see with it. It's only those of us WITH horned ones that would want to participate!
~Sara
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 8:20 am:
P.S. I do seriously like the idea of a tack swap, though. I have a very nice headstall that I got as a gift that's just not my style that's been hanging in the tack room with it's tag still on for 3 years!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 7:48 pm:
HMMM Sara M I never thought of that, who in their right mind would swap horns for halo? I would miss my horned one he keeps things interesting and he is hilarious! My horse friends and I still laugh until we cry about some of the things he's done/does.
One friend always says he is special! She decided she wanted to try to ride Hank one day, and honestly I thought she could handle him...WRONG.
He took off running like a wild banshee, me screaming behind her how to stop him. Gotta give her credit though she's the only one out of many many people that would try him. I am the only one that will ride Hank, other than the trainer I had.
The first time the trainer got on him...(this was the one who gives clinics and is an excellent rider) he wasn't breaking him just helping me.
He asked if Hank held still to get on, I said yep he won't move a muscle...never does.He grabbed his mane and just as he was swinging his leg over, Hank swung his head back, knocked the trainer in the head and sent him flipping off his back end UGGGHH I heard the crack. The poor trainer laid there in the middle of the arena, flat on his back, sun glasses broke. When he finally came to (he wasn't injured, just a little humbled) he said I thought you said he held still!!! I said he has never done that to me and he DIDN'T take a step!!! Surprisingly his arrogance won out and he said he was getting on him, but I had to hold him while he mounted. So I did and soon as his butt hit the saddle Hank was off and bucking like an idiot! Couple laps around the arena and he had that boy looking soooo good!
The reason I had him come out and ride him was because he was acting very barn sour with me, to the point of being dangerous, I knew I couldn't handle it and needed help. The trainer got him listening to him very well in the arena and yelled at me to open the gate...so I did!
I watched them go trotting down the road, and everything looked like it was going well, but he hadn't hit the spot where Hank usually had his fit. I couldn't see that spot from my vantage point, so I sat on the fence waiting for their return. I was starting to worry it was taking quite awhile, pretty soon here they come back down the road looking all relaxed and happy. (Hank was dripping sweat) I asked how it went and he said I'm not going to tell you because you will never get on this horse again if you knew...DO NOT leave the arena with him EVER!
Well needless to say I did at some point but we have had so many horned adventures together. He is "just special" and always will be!!! I wouldn't put anyone I liked on him! Matter of fact no one else will get on him anyway, because they have seen his horns!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 4:42 pm:
Now that Hank is a good boy I have been riding him with the bitless bridle more often. He is much more responsive to it then the sidepull. I have worked on when I pick up one rein that means slow or stop. He has that down like a champ!
With the bitless wonder I barely have to pick the rein up, I think the way it is made it gives him a signal before I actually have to pick it up...something like slobber straps. I can say with certainty now I really like it
It will lets you have abetter head carriage then the side pull does and allows you to put them in a "frame" as much as a bit. I can't do that with a side pull, he stays rather strung out with that.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 5:47 pm:
Diane, thanks for the update. As you know I am somewhat interested in the bitless bridle. Tried to get one for cheap from ebay, but that did not work out to well.
Right now my budget is too restricted. I have bridles and they work for my horses, no real excuse to add the bitless. It would be nice to have them snack on a long trail ride without have a bit in their mouth. I don't quite have the courage to ride them on trails with a Parelli halter, as some of my neighbors do.
Lilo
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Member:
boots
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 7:29 pm:
Hi! I have only posted a few times but am an avid reader here. I learn so much from many posts and love the way you share. I cannot resist telling you that I ride only in Dr. Cook's bitless bridle. My QH mare was using a fairly strong curb when I bought her. I soon tried the bitless, and- Have you ever seen a horse smile?? It works as well as the curb. She is very responsive to it, and the way I use it is exactly the some. Nothing new to learn. She direct reins and can neck rein most of the time - a combo. My TW is getting used to it too. He came with a horrible contraption for a bridle that I did not want to put on any horse. I'm a fan, can you tell?
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 5, 2009 - 10:21 am:
Good work, Diane.
Thanks for the up-date.
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Member:
kathleen
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Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 3:11 pm:
Diane,
I just read thru this thread and it is very interesting. You said in one post:
"He responded well to my seat and legs...we did some very nice half passes. I do not hardly need to use the reins, he listens to me without the bit. I KNOW he responds to seat very well, or at least he used too. It's like with a bit I hardly existed. Without it he is very attentive to my every move. For backing all I had to do was switch my weight. For stopping sit deeper. He was almost too responsive. Once when trotting down the middle of the arena I had more pressure on one leg(my injured knee makes me do that sometimes) his response was to start half passing without missing a beat.....NOW there's my old responsive Hank I once knew!"
It reminded me of my Arabian mare that I have had for 22 of her 23 years of age. She never really liked having a bit in her mouth and sometime reacted by raising her head, pulling on the reins, ignoring cues, tensing up, etc. I read a Linda Tellington Jones article where she wrote that many riders cause horses to lean on the reins. I realized that she was describing me (and many riders that I saw). Mona responded well to being ridden in a halter, then I progressed to using just a rope around her neck. It took a year or so before I felt like it was safe. I never moved forward until I felt it would be safe. Every time I groomed her before riding, I learned to read her as to how I should proceed safely. I learned to 'listen' to her. I have been riding her for 12 years without a bridle, just a rope around her neck. She is relaxed, holds her head and neck in a natural position, and is in general much happier. I noticed that when I use a bridle, she is not always the same responsive horse she is without the bridle. In my case I noticed that without the bridle, I am more relaxed and use my aids more effectively because I don't have the reins to get in the way (I am from the old school when we were taught to use only the reins to communicate with a horse). I have learned, through lessons, to ride correctly; but the old way comes creeping back occasionally. Without the bridle she is 'listening' for my cues and sometimes she responds by doing what I want her to do when I am just thinking it. She has taught me much. For example, that as soon as I think of asking her to, say, turn right, I am already using my body to give the cue. The first time she responded that way, I corrected her, thinking that she was anticipating my cue, and only realized later that she didn't anticipate my cue, she was actually responding to it. We have ridden on trails, in the woods, in the open fields, across streams, up hills, etc. There was only one time that I questioned riding without a bridle. We were galloping down a trail and she started going faster and she didn't respond to my aids to slow down. I couldn't turn her as the trail was too narrow. I decided to not continue asking her to slow down and just went with her and soon I could feel that she would possibly listen to me, and only then did I ask her to slow down, she did. She wasn't bolting or trying to run away, just felt like running I guess. I do feel that in a situation like I was in, had I continued to try to stop her she would continue to ignore me. I know we are taught to continue using the same pressure until the horse 'gives', but I feel that in my case that would have possibly led to a dangerous situation. Some horses respond to pressure by pushing against it, or in this case not responding. Does that make sense. Don't know if I am saying what I mean to say.
The reason for this story is that I believe from what you have said, Hank is indeed responding to the change to the bitless bridle, just as Mona responded to using something without a bit. In your case I guess we don't know if it is because of the absence of the bit, maybe the unique design of the bitless bridle caused you to use your aids a little differently, the change released him from some unknown pain or discomfort, or whatever. The main thing is that he is happier wearing the bitless bridle and I believe that due to this you will slowly be able to relax and it is possible for you to gain a special relationship with Hank that will amaze you.
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 12:18 am:
Oh what a great end to this thread.
I use a rope on my Arab - either that or a halter with reins snapped under on the ring.
but LOVE the Rope - i take him in the forest with that. He has a bitless bridle but hates stuff on his nose - would to that arab head toss thing too much - so like you kathleen - one day I just took it off. he was like ahhh you figured it out! I think he is really smart (don't we all think our horses are smart). but I think he appreciates the lack of devices to control him and he does seem to anitcipte my moves. I read some where that you want to be there with your horses. Expect it and it will happen - what ever "IT" may be. So when I ride him i expect he is calm and responsive - and he is. its amazing.
but then I have another horse, strong willed and only 'partners' with me - so I give - he gives any ride with him is a team event. but I love him and I know he loves me - I actually like that arrangement. I ride him in an english Hackamore. no bit again - works really well for him. some times I wonder if it is too severe but I am a very loose rein person, mostly leg and seat. I don;t believe reins should be used for very much so .... I just wish I could get him on the rope trick. - hes young perhaps in time...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 8:29 am:
I don't think I will ever graduate to bridleless! It was a great leap of faith to go with the BB.
He does love it and is very responsive to it. It is my favorite bridle I have used on him and I have used ALOT!
I do believe the At Liberty training helped us too. I learned to trust him and vise versa. The BB is just the "icing on the cake" if I'm ever able to ride him again with all his problems!
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 2:21 pm:
Ok, first ride with the bitless. She is not "horned" and she is the opposite when riding in a halter, a regular relaxed pokey old thing, so I wasn't concerned about her being silly. I think she was surprised when this thing which looked like her horrible old bridle with the bit didn't have one! She was a bit pokey when walking and was a bit wiggly and not walking straight, but there was no head twisting and not one head toss. In the trot she was pretty nice and forward and her head was up but not braced and again no twisting at all, head nice and straight on her neck like nature put it there. Also her circles were much better, less falling out (she would usually point her nose sideways and her shoulder would fall out) so that was nice. She trotted straight, freely. I got brave and we even cantered! It was one of the nicest canters she's ever had, usually she's rocky and a bit heading out of control, but she was smooth and I could stop her (without a one rein stop)! The trot canter transition was smooth but the canter trot transition not so smooth, but that's understandable at her level of training. After cantering she was moving better at the trot.
Her halt was 100% better, she stopped with out pulling, and the rein back was smooth and she didn't resist and stick her head in the air. Usually the halt is a pulling affair.
So, as they purport the "brakes" are good, much better. She seemed all in all relaxed, NO TEETH GRINDING!
The only issue I see is that she may not become round with it, but time will tell, after cantering she was a bit rounder.
So far I am impressed, whether it will help her go round and engage I'm not sure of yet. But she seems to feel comfortable in it, and if she's less fixated with the bit maybe she can start to relax and work into contact. I know that a bit is not needed for engagement, but not sure if I am a good enough rider...
Next, a video, (with tripod of course) of her in the bitless! A before and after!
If it can reduce the size of Hank's horns then maybe it can get Rosie engaged and on the bit "less".
Adria
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 3:38 pm:
Thanks for the report Adria, It took awhile for Hank to become round with the bitlees wonder. I think we went in stages with it. 1st he learned how to relax, quit throwing his shoulder too! I didn't get a lot of rides in last year with it but this summer before he hurt himself we were riding almost daily in it. He became round almost by himself...he WAS quite an inverted horse with the bit...strung out with the sidepull.
with Hank anyway, using it regularly, and both of us figuring it out he started working with his hindend engaged and "on the bit" almost naturally.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 9:41 am:
I just got this from my hoof guru gal. Don't know if it's new info or not, but thought I'd add it to this discussion. ;-)
Check this out guys. If you ever need visual proof for you and your owners,
Dr Cook performed a very effective comparison test. The videos are clear
and you can see a dramatic change on varying degrees of level of riders and
horses.
We will also be posting this on our ESA site in the Resources section.
Bit vs. Bitless, the CHA Experiment
In October, 2008, at the CHA's International Conference, Dr. Robert Cook
carried out a unique experiment. The behavior of four horses significantly
improved when their jointed snaffle bridle was replaced with a crossunder
bitless bridle. Four riding-school horses completed two four-minute exercise
tests, first in a snaffle bridle and then, immediately afterwards, in a
crossunder bitless bridle. None of the horses had ever been ridden before in
a crossunder bitless bridle and only two of the four riders had previously
used the bridle. The performances were judged by Mitzi Summers, a CHA Master
Clinic Instructor with 25 years experience of judging dressage and other
classes.
The average score was 37 when bitted and 64 when bitless. In four minutes,
riders improved their score by an average of 75%. One rider more than
doubled her score (109%) and another very nearly doubled her score (96%). A
statistical analysis provided strong evidence that the improvement in
performance was not the result of chance.
The experiment was videotaped and can be viewed on YouTube at
https://www.bitlessbridle.com/cat/Video.html
<https://www.bitlessbridle.com/>
A DVD is also available (call 866 235 0938). This is the first time that the
efficacy of the bit has been challenged. It is hoped that others will repeat
the experiment and build on this new line of research. An article
describing the experiment has been accepted for publication in an
international, peer-reviewed journal (Cook and Mills, 2009). The authors
urge those equestrian organizations that currently mandate use of the bit
for competition to review their rules.
Reference: Cook, W.R and Mills, D.S (2009): "Preliminary study of Jointed
Snaffle Bridle vs. Crossunder Bitless Bridle: A quantified comparison of
behaviour in 4 horses." Equine Veterinary Journal. In Press,
--
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 12:39 pm:
Interesting, Angie. I do think my horses definitely LIKE the bitless better. But there are times that a bit works better for rounding and finesse for what we do.
Only problem I see with Dr. Cook's research though, is that if they did the same test twice in their original bit, I still bet they would have improved a lot anyway. I wonder why they didn't do half with the bit first, and the other half with the bitless first? Would hold more water for me that way.
Erika
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 5:01 pm:
I thought the same thing when I watched the videos.
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