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Discussion on How should I deal with this behavior?
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Member:
cpacer
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 9:40 pm:
I got a new horse earlier this year, mostly as a companion, but over time I'm hoping to get him to be a good riding partner.
He came with some issues (16 years of who knows what) that we've been making a lot of progress on. He is a quirky horse with nervous twitches and glitches and is very hyper-sensitive, but there is one thing that he does that I'm not sure how to work with---he'll turn his head away like he's afraid to look at you.
We've built a lot of trust over the past few months and I've tried to be attentive on how little it takes for him to respond so I don't come at him "yelling", but I guess there's still a huge gap in there somewhere--he just gets worried so easily! When he turns his head away from me I feel like we're back at the beginning, and I say to him "don't you know by now I'm not going to do anything bad to you?".
Does anyone have ideas on how we can overcome this? Do you think it's something he's doing for comfort, or is he retreating on his terms, or what? If it was an obvious nervous issue I suppose I'd ask him to work some, but again I'm just not sure on this because he's being so gentle when he does it.
Any advice is appreciated!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 11:31 pm:
When does he do this cp? Out in pasture, lunging, grooming, tied? I guess there probably are many things that can cause this, retreat, disrespect, distraction, and maybe it's just the way he is.
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 7:59 am:
It's hard to say whether this is an evasive tactic or perhaps one of respect. One of the best ways I've found to communicate and bond with a horse with issues is through clicker training. Start by just giving him a target (I use a tennis ball on the end of a stick) to touch with his nose. Hold it in front of him until he touches it with his nose. If he doesn't within a reasonable time (say 10 minutes), then go back a step and click then reward with a tiny, tiny treat if he makes any movement towards it. Most horses understand within a short time that every time they touch the target with their nose, they get a treat.
From there, you can progress to shape other behaviors. But be careful: I've found that whatever the very first "trick" you teach, is the one they learn the best and repeat a majority of the time. So make it something you'd appreciate time and again.
I taught my horses to turn their heads away whenever I have a treat, using the word "away." The point was that they are not to maul me for treats. Perhaps your guy was taught the same!
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Member:
cpacer
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 8:51 am:
It almost does seem like he was taught to do it because the look on his face is like he's not allowed to look at me, maybe even being submissive. He's one of those horses that contorts his mouth when he gets anxious, and flicks his head/neck, so maybe it's somehow connect to that? He's also a big scaredy cat and will start huffing and puffing if someone new is close, or if things around him change. We have been taking the tiniest baby steps!
He'll mostly do the head turn when I'm standing right next to his front end or while grooming around his neck/head.
I don't want him to feel like he needs to do this though--just keeping his head nice and relaxed is fine for me. I wonder what message I'm sending to make him do it, and how I can get him to stop?
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 11:25 am:
Maybe headshy from being handled roughly ("eared down" etc.)? If so, it can take a fair amount of time and patient quiet handling to overcome. He'll probably always have the tendency. I had one that became very very good after 6 months or so but he would always revert somewhat if I, say, went out of town and didn't handle him for a week. Mine was about your guy's age too. Started out hard to catch, bridle, halter, or anything that involved my hand around his head. He came around though...
Maybe begin by standing quietly by as he eats, then work up to stroking his neck and progress from there. He'll tell you what works.
It's very rewarding when you earn the trust of one of these guys...
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 12:30 pm:
I had this same issue with a little red roan horse I rescued from auction. He tended to do it more when I was on his left side, he'd bend his head way away to the right. If I was on his right, he would move his head slightly to the left, but not as extremely.
I treated it as a trust issue, as in he didn't trust me near his head, and wanted to be able to move away quickly, but was willing to offer me his shoulder. So I brushed and stroked and petted his shoulder. Each day I worked a little further up his neck, never pushing him too hard; and always backing up a step when his neck relaxed and he moved his head, even just a smidge, closer to me. Just to see how well this works, when he bends away from you, back up a step and wait. He'll bring his head back slowly and then you can tell him "good boy" in a soft reassuring voice.
Two years later, when I come to him, instead of moving away, he moves his head toward me and he lays his head on my chest for a 'head hug'. 
Good luck and be patient. This is an intermediate step, he's not running away, but he's just trying to tell you that he's worried. So teach him that you won't push him when he's feeling this way, but will 'hear' him and treat him respectfully and gently until he trusts you.
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 2:30 pm:
Hi cp, I have a horse of a similar age whose behavior is very much like you describe. I got him as a companion horse, knowing he has arthritis, and I suspect he has been-- at best-- neglected, if not outright abused. He doesn't even related very well to my other guy. He also will turn his head away from me, and keeps the other horse at a certain distance...though he doesn't want him too far away. He seems not to have been socialized at all.
I haven't been trying to do anything specific with him, but we have made some very slow progress. He does like to be groomed, especially if the other horse is being groomed 1st! I always start at his back and hindquarters. When he feels ready for me to be closer to his head, he kind of shuffles backward so that I can reach his neck. He appears specifically afraid of hands. I can brush his face with a long-handled bottle brush, but he tends to shy away if I have a brush that fits in my hand.
Sometimes I find his anxiety to be pretty contagious, so I also talk to him alot, which makes me less uptight and hopefully that helps him.
So I will be interested to hear how it goes for you. I will probably be trying some of this stuff myself! I hate having a horse who has to been penned up to be haltered.
Kathy
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 - 4:35 pm:
Sometimes a horse that has had a really fearful experience that he couldn't escape from will "hide" this way. Sort of a variation on going inside himself and not being "present" in a situation that scares him or might lead to discomfort, pain, fright, etc. What if you turn his head to face you with both eyes, rub or scratch in a place he likes on his face and while he's still facing you with both eyes, step back and turn away--rewarding him for facing you by removing the pressure he feels.
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Member:
cpacer
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 8:23 am:
thanks everyone. Karin, I like what you're saying about letting him know I hear his concerns. I will try retreating and rewarding when he faces me and see how that goes. How would I be sure I'm not rewarding his turning by my backing off?
I have tried some of what you suggest Julie, but not while having eye contact. I rub him until he DrOps his head, or licks/chews and then I leave him alone. But you are right, he is kind of hiding, like "you can't see me, I'm not here". I tried doing a changing of the eyes exercise the first day I got him and he flipped out (but I was nervous too). I think I'll try that again today. For your suggestion, what would I do if I loose eye contact before I'm ready to retreat?
He is a sweet horse, which is why I brought him home! He's already gotten over his fear of farriers since he's been here--previous owners used to tranquilize him for trimmings.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 11:14 am:
You are rewarding him when you back away, that's why you must be sure he's doing exactly what you want before you back away. At first, you may have to reward him for even giving you an ear or a slight tilt, then ask for more next time. If he's comfortable with a halter and lead rope, you can turn his head to face you and when he gives to that a little, DrOp the lead rope to give him a big release. He needs to be looking at you when you give him the release or back away. Otherwise, he won't know that's what you want him to do. Good luck and bless you for wanting to make his life better.
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 12:32 pm:
I agree, Julie. The reward is for backing away.
However, CP, if you are talking about just testing him to see if he will relax (backing off a bit when he looks away), as I mentioned above... try and think of it this way.
He is moving away because he experiences your closeness to his head as pressure. In many ways, we teach our horses to move away from pressure, so it's not all a bad response. To test to see if that's what he is doing, when he moves away, back off a step. That's telling him that you heard his language in the way he is communicating to you. You're saying, oh, I hear that makes you worry, and I don't want you to worry, so let me back up a step to let you know that.
You'll just use this initially, and he will relax more readily and start turning toward you. This is also how I teach many horses, in part, to come to me. Working in a round pen, they look at me, and I back up a step. They put their nose out, I back up. When you are moving away, their fear level goes down and their curiousity level goes up. Eventually if you keep consistently backing without approaching, most of them will put their noses right on you.
I also use this as a desensitization technique, to teach a horse to become used to a strange item. I put them on a lead facing me, and I and the scary object back up instead of moving toward them. They acclimated much more quickly, because they don't feel threatened, they feel curious. And they walk toward the item, getting closer and closer until they touch it.
So, don't worry about rewarding the wrong thing. Communication has to be both ways. We teach a lot about how to communicate to your horse. We also need to learn and teach how to respond to their communication as well. It makes for a much better partnership.
It sounds like you are doing so much for him already, in terms of helping him regain confidence and trust. Be sure you are also touching him with brushing and petting and massage everywhere he lets you touch him currently. And maybe find a favorite place of his to scratch. You want to teach him in every way that he can trust you when you touch him. That will help him relax faster around his head too.
If ever you find yourself getting nervous, take a moment, close your eyes and take a few deep grounding breaths. Horses are very sensitive to your emotions, so that will help him be calmer too!
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Member:
cpacer
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 3:40 pm:
oh yes, we've been doing a lot of desensitizing!
The funny thing is, even though he still turns his head while up close, he will now face me in the pasture, back, hind, front, and lead all over the place without a rope or halter, so I guess he doesn't think I'm that bad.
The journey never ends!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - 3:59 pm:
Karin, just curious but are you a student of Mark Rashid?? Your post sounds so like him.
cp, I had one who was big on turning face slightly away for ??? tried lots of fixes none really worked gave up worrying about it and lo and behold it went away on its own and not sure I was even aware when the behavior departed but it did! Never returned in its place came really good hugs, the kind where you are squished into their necks!
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 12:19 pm:
Hi, Cindy!
I am not an official student, however I have read all his books, and have one DVD, but then I've read a wide variety of horsemanship views as well; and uh, a very large collection of DVDs. I also had the pleasure of watching him teach two clinics at the CHA conference in Colorado two years ago. He just has such a remarkable presence and way with horses and people. He does his summer clinics just a few miles from my home. I keep thinking that's just too convenient to miss!
That said, I have studied briefly under John Lyons, and a wide variety of not so well known trainers. I have a pretty eclectic approach in that I use what I consider helpful from all those different influences.
Thanks for asking!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 4:19 pm:
As you could guess I've loved Rashid for years! Been to a couple of his clinics read all the books and have tapes. Think he saved my horses a lot of grief by enlightening this old lady! Dennis Reis is another I try hard to follow esp. his work with mustangs. Would love to get DT out here as I think he has tons of wisdom and insight to pass on! Horses are forever teachers and we the eternal students, love every minute I have been given!
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 6:10 pm:
Well, if Dennis ever wants to give a clinic in Colorado, I have the perfect venue for him! I enjoy his insights as well.
And Cindy if you ever take another Rashid clinic, you can just do it here in Colorado and stay with me!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2008 - 8:33 pm:
Thank you and love Colorado so someday might show up on your doorstep!
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