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Discussion on Flash or figure 8
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 8, 2008 - 1:35 pm:
I recently read an article about the benefits of using a figure 8 style noseband.
They aren't used in my area so I am wondering if any of you have experience with one and what you like or dislike.
Thank you
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 8, 2008 - 8:59 pm:
Hi Lori,
There's a (somewhat judgmental) discussion of how these and other nosebands work at
https://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#noseband
The Figure 8 or Grackle may not be legal for dressage competition. I always thought they were illegal, but saw someone compete in one this summer.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 9, 2008 - 6:52 pm:
Elizabeth it took me two days to read that entire page! But it sure was loaded with great information.
I used to have a book on bits and bitting by an Australian cavalry guy, can't remember the name of it, or unfortunately who I loaned it to; but it had similar opinions that often bucked the common thought on bits. But when you read the explanations, it was clear that he was correct.
I love when people really think about WHY they are using a particular piece of equipment. I think a lot of people just do whatever is in fashion. I can't find a bridle that doesn't have a DrOp noseband of some sort. I don't need one for my horses, but when you take off that extra loop it still has that stupid little tab on the front of the remaining part!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 12:18 am:
Hi Lori,
Yeah, that site is a good resource, though she gets very black-or-white about some stuff. I have a bridle with a crank noseband (modified padding as she shows), and I just leave the cavesson so I can see air between it and my mare's jaw to avoid the evils she describes.
I've ridden jumpers in Figure 8s, but it was always as a transition to solve a pulling problem. Why are you considering one? I will say that they are totally cool-looking!
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 8:48 am:
I have always questioned why we need to tie the mouth shut. My trainer calls it 'closing the mouth'.
When I trained horses in the western way mouth gaping was never an issue.
As I understand the development of the noseband itself it wasn't intended to be used to keep the mouth closed but to provide a place to attach other artificial aids.
I do see that a noseband can help a horse learn to accept the contact. By that I mean if a horse is avoiding moving off your leg you can apply a spur or whip and the horse learns it is easier on him to respond to gentle requests.
So if the horse is gapeing or excessively mouthing the bit trying to avoid obedience the noseband can help convince him to get over it.
(Now I can hear people already saying if the horse is doing that maybe the rider should check her hands)
Yes, of course, but I am only talking about a young horse or retraining a horse.
I am not referring to an older 'trained' horse that goes about grinding its teeth, bracing or would gape if it could.
I have personally just experienced with my own 2yr old when I started bridling her, she would chew like I have never seen a horse chew. Each and every time for the duration and this over a period of time. This is my OCD baby.
So, I did use a noseband, tightened it so I could still fit a finger underneath.
In one session she quit chewing.
Specifically to answer your question I have heard that a figure 8 was kinder to the nose, since it fits higher up on more solid bone.
The bottom part that goes around the mouth fits a bit differently than a flash and is harder to overtighten.
I don't like a flash because they always pull the whiskers and I won't shave those off. I always lightly shave where the noseband tightens so I don't inadvertently pull whiskers. Although I suppose since a figure 8 buckles in the same area so I would have the same problem in that regard.
And I don't really see a need for one. Perhaps I just don't understand their purpose well enough.
The other benefit I have heard about the figure 8 is because they are higher they don't restrict the breathing, this is why they are preferred in the eventing crowd.
Could you explain to me how they would help with a horse that pulls?
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 9:59 am:
Hi Lori,
I have no idea why a Figure 8 would be especially useful on a horse that pulls.
I used to be a real purist on all these things-- no flash for me and so on. But as I have started schooling more advanced movements on very fit and opinionated horses, I've learned that some of these things, properly used, can save a lot of time and prevent the development and necessary correction of bad habits.
Western horses are not ridden "through" and with the same kind of collection that, for example, a dressage horse is asked to produce. Western collection is a completely different thing than dressage collection. In dressage, most horses seem to figure out pretty quickly that they can find an easier way to respond to the aids if they blow off the bridle. Some (not all) of these bits of rigging can discourage these particular evasions, and keep the horse more correct in early training. So I'm more pragmatic than I was-- if they're humane, used correctly, and helpful, why not?
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 11:27 am:
I like to understand how the equipment works. (my favorite word is why.
I do see your point, it makes sense. Nicely explained.
thanks
Oh, so since you have experience with them would you say one type of noseband is harsher than the other?
When I look at them it just seems that a figure 8 is less obstructive.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 12:09 pm:
I love to ask "why" also when some one says you need this or that piece of tack. I did ask about some kind of nose band one time when a dressage instructor was tacking up. I told her I thought it looked cruel and served no purpose. (I am not a dressage rider nor will I ever be one!) Her reply was "why is it any different than using a curb chain on a western horse?" Hmmm...that got my attention. She explained it's use, I of course don't remember much of her explanation, but wish I would have paid more attention.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 12:30 pm:
Lori, I don't know. I have never felt like my plain old cavesson was holding back a horse's performance, but probably I would if I did racehorses. I think the big issue with either cavesson is how well it fits and how tightly it's adjusted.
If I get sweat marks under a cavesson, I assume it's too tight. I believe the horse has a right of self defense if I make a mistake with my hands (though my flavor of mistake is generally to throw the reins away). If I use a flash, it's never tight, and I have problems with them flying up into my horses' faces at inconvenient times. I really think that it depends on the horse and especially on the rider.
I agree that a curb with a chain (esp. combined with a tie-down) has always struck me as a potentially coercive setup.
And you know, I'm not a horse. I recently added a flash for my dressage horse-- she is an ex-eventer who was bitted up big time, and has always locked her jaw (either on the bit or slightly open-- either way, the rider is slightly hosed). Oddly enough, the loosely-adjusted flash seems to have given her the idea of relaxing her jaw, and she's now very soft and pleasant (most of the time). Why would that be true? I have no idea. If I were a horse, that flash would annoy me even more, but apparently I'm not a horse.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 1:25 pm:
As we all know, in both english and western riding many riders and trainers take shortcuts with equipment to get the desired result. Whether it's tying the horse's mouth closed so he can't evade contact, or using a high ported bit to force the his head into position. Adding equipment is usually done to 'fix' a problem in the short run.
That said, I have worked with many excellent trainers and have never met one that didn't occasionally use additional equipment to get around a problem. I think the key is to use these things mindfully for what they are, a crutch, with the goal of removing them as soon as possible so that the horse and rider don't come to rely on them.
Not to turn this into a rant, but I have met too many good horses have been ruined by increasing the severity of the bit (I include a flash as increased severity) to the extent that they are like a ton of bricks in your hand or, the opposite, are forever behind and fearful of the pain the bit will bring. Having started my formal training in reining (the western version of dressage) I admire the self-carriage of a well schooled reiner, many of whom are capable of performing upper level dressage movements without being held up by the hands of the rider. I have tried to keep that idea and feeling of lightness in my dressage work.
Think of it this way .. pick up your computer mouse. That is about the amount of pressure I like to feel from a horse that is working on happy contact. The more things we add for the horse to fight, the less that feeling becomes possible. Just my 2 cents 
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 9:34 pm:
I don't think a regular cavesson would affect a horses breathing but the way I have seen some flashes done up they would certainly restrict air intake.
I wonder, since your flash was only lightly tightened if it just massaged her a bit? Distracted her from what else bugged her?
Every clinician I have had tries to tighten my noseband and flash.
Good discussion thank you.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2008 - 9:10 am:
Has anyone got any experience with this noseband? I assume it goes under the bit, adding nose pressure. Would you say it is a milder way to deal with a puller?
I don't have a puller, but this thread has me intrigued and got me wondering.
https://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=6535
What do you all think about this contraption?
Erika
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2008 - 9:45 am:
Hey Erika,
Well, it works by adding nose and poll pressure to the bit pressure if you haul on the reins. The bit sits over that metal loop. Honestly, just looking at it, it would seem to me never to release pressure on the nose and poll-- the weight of the bit/reins alone must continue to apply pressure. I've never used one, so I'm just guessing from the photos.
I have said here and elsewhere that I'll occasionally use a gadget to solve a problem, but I really mistrust any gadget that does not immediately and completely release when the problem behavior isn't present.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Nov 17, 2008 - 8:15 pm:
Just FYI-- I asked a friend who's a rated judge, and she said the figure 8 noseband is legal for USEF/USDF competition. I asked whether a judge might draw any unfavorable conclusions (for example that might impact the submission score) if she saw a horse presented in one, and she said mmmphmm, depends on the judge....
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 18, 2008 - 6:35 pm:
Thanks Elizabeth,
and just when I was going to discontinue my ebay search for a figure 8 bridle.
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