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| Discussion on Mood Gelding's Test Results In | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 10:45 am: Being a newbie, I hope I have this in the right place because, I have a dilemma:I have a 5 year old Arab/Paint that has gotten worse about shots, not better...and if that wasn't enough, he is an extremely easy keeper and terribly moody...ugh. Some days he's a joy to be around, other days he is just the opposite yet I cannot explain why, all things being the same day to day. So far, I have addressed his moods with supplements that address mood and weight issues but it hasn't been long enough to decided it they work yet. To add to the mix though, I had my vet out Thursday to draw blood looking for elevated insulin and any other test he can run off of one visit (the needle issues) to see if I have a medical issue aggravating the problems I'm having this Fall. He has no other symptoms to point me in any other direction so, after we rule things out thru blood work, I'll have a better idea which direction to head in. This horse is moody, eats like he's starving yet his body weight says otherwise and seems to pee more than the other horse. His body score would be between a 6 and 7, closer to 7 if I had to choose just one. He gets ample turn out with my other horse but time in full growth pasture is limited to two hours in the afternoon until I know more about his insulin levels. The rest of the time they are either in the paddock eating (separately) or in the arena with minimal to no grass until 3:00. At 3:00 they go out to pasture, then come in to the paddock/open stalls at 5:00 for the rest of the night to limit grass access. His diet is Triple Crown Lite, minimal amount (18 ounces divided into 3 meals), along with a pad of medium quality hay morning and late night. What baffles me is the mood swings, some days mellow, other days wound up. I really need to find that issue before I think I will make much headway in using Dr.O's methods to work with his shot issues. I swear he acts like a horse with insulin resistance but I won't know the answer to that until sometime next week. At times, he also reminds me of a person with a seratonin imbalance but again, I want to rule out the insulin possibility first. I can spot a person with seratonin problems from a mile away.......... I guess my question to all of you is in the form of "Help, what would you do with a mood swings horse who hates shots? Yesterday, some of the blood work came back to show normal liver, kidney, cortisol, don't know about the T3 T4 or insulin until next week...or any other tests he thru in there while we had the chance. Any suggestions you have will be much appreciated. I am totally baffled, some days he even hates being brushed. Soft brush, still brush, makes no difference. PS: I love that this forum has a spell checker...I'd be a mess without it. 
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 11:51 am: Hi Patty I own 3 IR horses, not a one tested IR through blood tests...but if it quacks like a duck...Quite a few of us own horses as you describe...they have been dubbed "the horned ones" Once you rule out the medical problems, you may find you are also the proud owner of A horned one. It is a personality trait you have to learn to deal with. My horned one (Hank) is a much nicer horse when he understands I am the herd leader PERIOD! Like your horse he can be sweet as a pussy cat or a horrible idiot...depends on the day. I don't think it has anything to do with being IR.(which he is) Your horse is at an age when the horns start to grow if they are going to have them. With my horse firmness yet fairness is the way I keep him "stable" He is on a IR diet. Stemmy hay, absolutely no kind of grain...he gets a little bit of alfalfa pellets for protein and his "grain" for the most part he has become a willing partner, with very good ground manners, but he will always have his horns. These type of horses can turn you into a very talented, inventive, frustrated horse person. I have owned Many many horses over the years and this boy takes the cake, he is also my favorite horse I have ever owned....once we came to an understanding. Your horse is young and may just be going through a phase. Hank started as 4 yo and never grew out of it 
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 3:13 pm: Thank you Diane. On Thursday morning we drew a fasting insulin and although that is the one I'm most interested in, it's also the one that we won't get back until next week. When I spoke with a veterinary pharmacist a few weeks ago, he mentioned that if the test does show IR, we may well be able to fix his mood swings by addressing the IR. I well remember right before I found out that my son was a type 1 diabetic, I nearly had the phone in hand to made him an appointment with a counselor because of his excessive grumpy moods. Even his regular doctor didn't catch the diabetes until the 3rd visit when he complained about being thirsty all the time....then she knew right where to look. His blood sugar was 400, well above the norm of 80-120. When he got out of the hospital 3 days later, I had my normal grumpy teenager back, not the beast that was all over the map. So, we shall see. My horse has never been a pushover but something is really off lately and I don't know what....... |
| Member: scooter |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 9:54 pm: Hi Diane...and thank you for your replies..really makes a newbie feel welcome. I have put so much time into researching supplements, then IR after reading about the supplements/cresty necks/IR connection. If he does not show IR, like you I will treat him as if he is because of his "easy keeperhood." But there's something else important that I learned along the way...about tryptophan. In the beginning, I asked my vet about the calming supplements out there and that one had tryptophan that might address his moodiness. We decided to try that one until I read about insulin resistance and the connection to cresty necks. Because I lost a Cushing's horse in August that had been on pergolide/chromium for 6 years, I noticed quite a similarity in their symptoms. For whatever reason, I reread in one of my books the chapter about Cushing's and my mouth fell open when I saw that one of the drugs that they use to treat Cushing's (cyproheptadine) is actually a seratonin BLOCKER. Yikes...that lead to the obvious question--->Although they are two different diseases, if you want to block seratonin in a Cushing's horse, would you not want to give a horse that is possibly IR tryptophan to increase seratonin? I had nooo idea what a barn burning question that was. To find an answer, I asked 4 veterinarians and not a one knew the answer, honestly, they had never been asked that before. Stumped but still wanting to find the answer, I called the veterinary pharmacy where my pergolide/chromium came from. Low and behold, the fella at BET Pharmacy knew the answer....but hang onto your hat for this one: The answer is---> Tryptophan increases seratonin which converts to melatonin. Melatonin raises glucose levels which in turn elevate insulin levels sooooo....no, you do not want to give tryptophan to a horse that may have/has insulin issues. With the info about tryptophan fresh in my memory, I repeated that to my vet and at least until we ran the test, we put him on a supplement that did not have tryptophan in it. I could always add it again later but for now, it's out the window. And with what you said about IR tests, there's a good chance I will try a different approach either way. It seems that everything I learned about metabolic issues with my Cushing's horse now applies to this horse. I had my Cushing's horse down to a science so she could have grass time as long as I kept her weight down. Even with that, I bought a laser thermometer to help me watch for laminitis...they are calibrated to one degree of accuracy, much better than feeling by hand. In the end, I did not lose her to colic or founder, I lost her to a tear in the pelvic aortic split. Fortunately, I was there to get the vet out and we helped her transfer over....much better than finding her already gone when I went out with breakfast that morning. And would you believe, with Cushing's and all....she made it to the wonderful age of 33, my baby for 26 years. Dear God, I miss her sooo. :'-( She had an interesting story that made our local paper 10 years ago this December that involved a surgery that required cutting her carotid artery completely in half. The surgeon had to remove a botched thyroid that entangled with it, then sew the artery back together if she were to have any chance of living out a normal life. It's quite a story, I'll try to share it tomorrow if you like. Gotta go, time to feed for the night but thanks again for your replies.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 10:58 pm: Patty if your horse has a cresty neck, I would be suspicious of IR no matter what the blood test says.Here is what I learned in the last few years. It took a crippling founder to wake me up and listen. My vet said he is too fat, doesn't do anything and no supplement is going to help him...YES you can try thyroid meds. YES you can try magnesium and chromium. I'll even get it for you BUT nothing is going to help this horse until he looses weight through diet and exercise Period! He also said he didn't need to run tests to tell he was IR, but he was willing to take my money! He calls IR horses the eats too much doesn't do nothing synDrOme and well come to find out he's right for the most part . Of course I had to bombard poor Dr.O. with questions and put in simple terms he pretty much said the same thing...Hank had foundered and until his weight became normal he probably wouldn't recover. As the weight peeled off he became sounder and sounder and a much happier camper. It is a daily battle not to over feed them. They live on practically nothing and are still fat. Vet and I have finally agreed that Hank is not capable of skinny, but acceptably fat. If I keep him in that range everything seems to go well, except he thinks he's starved. He still has that personality, but I have learned to accept it and try to work with what I have. Matter of fact I have grown to love it! He's a quirky, moody horse that keeps life interesting and rather humorous. The day I gave up fighting it and accepted the fact that Hank is not normal we started to get along much better. He is the sweetest animal you could ever meet...just not quite right in the head I too have an interesting observation, that cresty neck of his tells me just about everything I need to know anymore, if it starts getting bigger and harder somethings got to change...immediately...no grass, more exercise. Your horse will tell you what he can tolerate, it's just figuring it all out. I've tried all the supplements ect. but nothing worked except diet and exercise. I tried quiessence for calming and to address the ir, all it did was make him pee more and cost me $$$.  I hope you figure out your geldings problem, but if it isn't medical maybe it could be addressed simply with diet, exercise, and learning to enjoy, accept, and learn how to control a "horned one" took me 6 yrs to figure that one out, but life is much easier now! 
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 8:05 pm: Dr.O....that was just something the veterinary pharmacist said as we were talking about high insulin and if it might play into his mood swing problems. I can tell you from experience with a kid with undiagnosed type 1 diabetes, his moods were definitely affected by his condition but none of us knew it, not even his doctor in the first 2 visits. But this is a learning process for me and someone in an email suggested I check the possibility of an ulcer even though he does not have the typical symptoms of one. I will certainly bring that idea up when I talk to my vet about the rest of the lab results this week. I do know that I want to rule out any possible medical explanation before I approach this as totally a behavioral problem....although I know the shots issue is totally behavioral. Thank you Dr.O for posting here, I was hoping you would share your opinion as I stumble along. Diane....you pegged it with "the horned one." I had a cat like that and I always said he was not a beginners cat...lol. I've had quite a year so to answer your question, Ziggy did not get a lot of owner induced activity but he's such a whirlwind than it didn't become an issue until this late summer. By comparison, he gets fed so little I don't know how he does it but, I so wish I could feed him more hay to keep him more content.....sigh. Although I feel that you are right about the IR and test results, I need a good heart-to-heart with my vet so we can create a game plan. So far, no laminitis issues and I would peg him a BC score of 6.5, maybe 30-50 pounds heavier than I want him to be. He trots a lot when turned out and I see no sign of soreness. Actually, he looks good until you walk up and feel him. And before I forget.....Ziggy's picture is in our local paper today. I ran into a reporter for that paper at a fund raiser last summer at the race track and in joking, I told her about a trick I taught Ziggy when he was around 2 years old----> I taught him...now promise not to laugh and roll your eyes ok? Promise? OK, I taught him to........smile, a great big no mistaken goofy full toothed grin. I have customers here allll the time and when I see they have a kid with them, I'll call him over to the fence and ask him to smile for them. When he does it, you can even see his gums above his teeth...honest. There is a down side to this little feat though....whenever he does something bad and I have to scold him..he backs up, DrOps his head, thinks for about 5 seconds, then raises his head....and smiles his way out of trouble. I can tell you from the bottom of my heart, it is awfully hard to stay mad at a horse that is standing just two feet from you smiling...and he knows it. LOLOLOLOLOLOL! Now, about my other horse, the Cushing's horse that had the surgery 10 years ago. It's a long story so I'll do my best to cut corners: When Banner was 18 years old, I noticed a lump in her throatlatch area that turned out to be a thyroid tumor. The vet said that it either will or won't stop growing so, we watched it for a year and it continued to grow for another 2 years. Because it showed no sign of slowing down, I took her to him to have it taken out for $600.00. He got right down to it, showed it to me as I was right there the whole time, and decided to just biopsy it, charge me $400.00, then only charge me $200 if he later had to go back in. Although I wanted it out, I went along with the plan. A year later, I called him and said that it was still growing and I wanted it out while it was still small. He then told me that he no longer does horses and that the vet that brought the practise would call me. The price went from $200 to $700 because he did not have to honor the previous quote......dang. But that was minor compared to what happened next: Over the next couple of years, this thing continued to grow but, the new vet kept saying that it was not worth the risk of surgery "at this time." So, I waited....and waited. Then one day I got up and said "I want this thing out and I want it out NOW!" I then called a surgery clinic one of my other horses had been to a few years ago and arranged to take her there. The surgeon took one look at her, scoped her, and took her right into surgery. He said that if it didn't come out, she had about six months to live before this thing caused her to suffocate.  Two and a half hours later, he came out and DrOpped a bomb on me that made me sick to my stomach---->He couldn't get it out because the biopsy site created a raw spot that stuck to the surrounding tissue..and sprouted blood vessels that wrapped around her carotid artery. I cried all the way home and all night long. God forgive me for being selfish, I prayed all night long for some miracle to save her life lump or no lump, I didn't care. When I went back to get her the next day, the doctor, by the grace of God's intervention, offered to take her on free of charge as a research project, all I would have to pay for along the way was supplies. In my emotional state, I was terrified for her but really had nothing to lose at that point. We spent the next two years trying every way he could find thru research of stopping this thing from getting bigger. We drained the fluid to see how long it took to fill back up. He flushed it one time with formalyn to try to shut down the secretor cells, anything he could think of. After two years of really not getting anywhere reasonably resembling a quality of life, it came down to one last ditch surgery effort to get the tumor out, carotid entanglement and all. By then he had moved to West Virginia so on December 28th, 1998 we loaded her and her stablemate and DrOve to him knowing that she may not come back with us. Banner's surgery was on the 29th and I can honestly tell you, I was a wreck. Having not slept for 4 days because of an ice storm induced power outage at home, I was totally brain fried that day with my heart about to jump out of my chest. Her surgery last just under 3 hours. The doctor came out and said that she was in recovery but, I was not to call home yet and report all was well because she was in pretty rough shape and anything could go wrong in the next 24 hours....and it did. Later that day, she had internal bleeding at the surgery site and he had to do an emergency tracheotomy when she hit the floor unable to breath...which was one of his fears come true. Once she was back up, I didn't leave her side for the next 4 days except for a bathroom/shower break and to grab take-out food to eat in the barn. God bless the clinic, they left the doors open for me at night incase I wanted to go in to warm up..being that it was 13 degrees in the barn. The night before we headed home, her doctor showed me what he took out.....and I swear I'm not exaggerating here...it took two hands for me to hold it. That was when he told me that he had to cut her carotid artery completely in half, peel the excess blood vessels off of it, then sew it back together. Perhaps here I should tell you that it was by the grace of God that I met this man when he was briefly in my area (one year) waiting to move into this job. Her surgeon was a former professor from Auburn State....and would you believe, his specialty was---->vascular surgery! I want to include his name here but not sure if it's allowed? Banner was allowed to come home on New Year's Day but since she still had the tracheotomy, I had to put an intercom in the barn so I could hear when the tube clogged and needed cleaning out with Q-tips. Pretty much, that happened 3-4 times a day, always at least once at night around 3:00a.m. I was an interesting sight flying out the back door in January in my pajamas waving Q-tips wildly in the air.  Due to minor complications with the tracheotomy site, she wasn't considered a complete success until well into February. In May, the local paper did a full half page article on her/our adventures to save her life....and even with Cushing's settling in at the age of 27, she still made it to the well deserved age of 33. When I lost her in August of this summer, I was totally lost, unable to think about farm schedules because everything revolved around her needs and wants. Even the entire farm went into low gear as we all sensed her loss, all the way down to the farm chickens, goats and ducks. It was quite some time before I could really function and turn my undivided attention to Zigman. So, that's the story about her surgery. I have her name and date of surgery engraved on the back of my St. Francis of Assisi medal, having no doubt, there was a divine intervention involved and I saw it with my very own eyes.
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 11:37 pm: Thank you again Diane....you are so kind to be so helpful to a newbie. Dr.O...I have this horse on the lowest amount of lite grain you could give as a mercy feeding, his hay is only 2 pads per day and access to real grass is limited. Right now, they get just two hours in the pasture while the grass I try my hardest to kill every summer is still green. The rest of the day, they are in the well eaten down arena. Diane...to answer your question, one of my dogs contracted Lymes and 3 summers ago, I unknowingly walked around for a week with...Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. The fever came and went so I wasn't worried until it kept coming back higher each time. By the time I knew it was serious, 7 days had passed which actually put my life in danger. The urgy clinic doctor took one look at me, stepped back out to the hallway to grab a nurse, and his second question was to ask me if I had been bitten by a tick recently. There was no rash like kids will sometimes get with the disease but he saw how sick I was. He then informed me of what he was sure I had, told me people still die from it, then made me promise to take my first dose of meds in the parking lot of the pharmacy..."DO NOT WAIT UNTIL YOU GET HOME!" I was a pretty sick puppy for quite a few days. So, both RMSF and Lymes have made their presense known here and I will ask my vet about that as well. I gotta head for bed now but I do thoroughly enjoy our conversations and will mention your ideas to my vet this week. I have learned the hard way over the years to always rule out a medical issue before assuming it's strictly behavioral......just ask any grumpy pre-diagnosed diabetic, or maybe even a male cat that starts peeing on the carpet, or the older horse that seems to pee a little more than she used to...or the cat with the ravenous appetite who actually has a thyroid tumor that needs removal. Because of my many experiences with subtle signs of something's wrong, when I take a critter to the vet because something is wrong, the first thing out of my mouth is a request for a full panel of lab work. If it can't tell me what it is, it can tell me what it isn't............... |
| Member: frances |
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 10:20 am: Thanks Dr.O...I'm anxious to talk with my vet once he has all the test results in so we can put a plan of action together.Ziggy has always been moody but I dare say, I have noticed it more since we lost his adopted mother in August. Is it because I'm noticing him more or is he missing his ole stablemate more than I thought? Those two could stay together in the paddock at night, the horse he's with now you cannot....she's an alpha mare and kicks him over really stupid stuff. They get along fine and stay together once turned out but that's it. There is only one fence line between them at night though so he's not at all isolated. LL...once I learned how to, I'll post the pic of Ziggy smiling so everyone can have a good laugh. It's the cutest darn thing but I have to refresh my memory on how to make the picture smaller for posting first. Diane..she was my baby for 26 years, brushed every day unless I was sick....and even still, sometimes I snuck out when I was supposed to be flat on my back in bed or on the sofa.
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| Member: erika |
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| Member: leslie1 |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 1:59 pm: Awe shucks, I'm so glad you liked the story...it was one of the most emotionally draining times of my life but in the end, it bought her 10 more years of quality time, I have no regrets over anything I ever did for her.
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 10:43 am: Good morning and happy Tuesday, two more days to go and I'm off for two whole days (to recover from hosting Thanksgiving dinner). Still waiting to hear the results of Ziggy's tests and, I wrote alll my questions down, to include Lymes and ulcers. Dr.O...I have a question specifically for you. I mentioned earlier in this thread the use of tryptophan. What I'm curious about is that I see that it is the #1 approach to address moodiness/easily irritated temperments. And for just a few minutes, let's set aside the idea that it's totally behavioral. Because I know people who take low dose meds for seratonin imbalances, I just wonder how for just a second you would approach that in a horse? The people I know are not being treated for true depression, the dose is waaaay to small for that but, it does seem to rewire something they were born with and the low dose makes them feel normal, not upset by insignificant issues.....and they always feel better after being out in the sun, as long as they don't overdo it. It's not a happy pill, it's just something that makes them feel normal, not happy, not sad. The problem is something they are born with and to say "counseling" would be like telling someone to counsel themselves out of asthma, diabetes or any other medical problem that has a biological root. I know and understand that the first approach to a horse's problems is assumed to be behavioral but, just for a few moments, let's entertain the thought that the horse is not wired right from birth...like the people I know....what would you do? Some days, Ziggy reminds me of my son for another reason.....Jason was tagged in first grade (3 years early) as being gifted. At a seminar for parents of gifted children, it was explained that gifted children tend to be very affected by things that most people wouldn't give a second thought. Their food has to be just right, clothes have to feel a certain way, etc. and when things aren't just right, they become moody and not able to always perform to their best ability. They never suggested any way of approaching it other than that parents need to understand that the child is not being unfairly demanding, it's just part of the make-up of gifted children, they are sensitive to things that most people couldn't care less about. Ziggy without a doubt, is a gifted "child." So, what would you do if the moodiness had a biological root? I'm really curious because I know what it does to people and how well they respond to medical treatment. |
| Member: ekaufman |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 12:23 am: Thanks Elizabeth for your input. You are not the only person to suggest exercise and once I know the results of all his tests, at the very least I will start lunging him more often. I do still want my original question to stand though because I do know that there are horses out there that just aren't wired right and no amount of exercise will fix it....but you don't often hear of them unless it is to the extreme and the rumor about the "killer" horse has made it's rounds. The people I know that have the imbalance improve with exercise but sadly, it is always only temporary because it does not address the wiring, just provides a temporary bridge over the gap, so to say. For further info, this same imbalance in people has been linked to alcoholism, but in a really sneaky way. What research found years ago is that in the past, many alcoholics were actually trying to self-medicate with alcohol without knowing it....they were looking for relief without knowing what was wrong...and this helps explain why the disease tends to run in families. To put it in terms that I can understand, they simply weren't wired right and many unknowingly tried to treat it with alcohol. It was not full blown depression, they would have recognized that, but it is something that keeps them off balance with life in general, thru no fault of their own, until they treat the cause and not the symptoms. So, I just wonder................... |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 1:38 am: I thought it had been found that alcoholism was in some cases because the people were low in a few nutrients, maybe magnesium? And many responded favorably just by making sure their diet was nutrient rich, supplements added.I think it's fair to assume that any living creature can have chemical imbalances which in many cases can be addressed by making sure the diet is nutrient rich, along with exercise, proper environment, and socialization. I personally believe many children who are labeled ADD, just need their diets cleaned up, the tv/video games turned OFF, and physical activity added. (Does your horse play alot of video games?  ) The $10,000 question is even with all the right vitamins, minerals, micronutrients, which could be things we don't know about even, is the person/horse's body utilizing them? And with a horse, it could be a pain issue which has been missed, and he can't tell you what hurts. Maybe keeping a journal of his daily moods, activities, supplements, etc., (and your mood too when interacting with him...that I believe is something horses pick up on more than we realise) will help you find an answer. One last thought, and forgive me if you mentioned this above, but did this behavior worsen after Banner died? Now, about treating my insomnia...Just Kidding! |
| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 10:17 am: Good morning and thank you both for you thoughts. Angie, to answer your question truthfully, I'm not sure. Banner was my primary focus because of how delicate her situation was, due to her Cushing's. During that time, Ziggy was brushed and feet cleaned often but not as much as Banner...he was like "on the back burner." When Banner died, I let him and Bokay come out to the pasture to see her so they would know that she was not lost in the woods somewhere. Ziggy was very close to her and I felt he needed to know because he would always wait for her before he would come in at the end of the day. I think I did the right thing because he never had a tantrum looking for her and that first night, he came right in without looking back to make sure she was also on her way. Ziggy and Bokay....and the goats and dogs....all went into quiet mode for about 10 days. Everyone ate as usual but there was definitely something missing in their daily spark. To add to that, they all seemed to rebound within a day or two of each other, once we passed the 10 day point. Perhaps more to the point though is that he no longer has a paddock buddy at night. Ziggy and Banner would share a stall with paddock area as they got along fine. Bokay always had to have her own area, she was not into sharing. To try to remedy that as best I could, I moved Bokay up to the next stall over so they can smooch or talk over the fence, but not have to share space for the night. I had to do that sometimes with Banner too...when she was wearing her blanket. Somewhere on this computer there is a picture of Banner in her blanket and the entire rumpus looks like it went thru a paper shredder....and there was only one possible culprit. Believe me, I hear everything you all are saying and am ready to act on your ideas once I get the rest of the test results. I'm just so totally baffled by this little fella and I'm anxious to start Dr.O's desensitizing methods. Which brings me to a question for him: I know you can't give me specifics but how long does it take on average to bring the horse around so far as shots? He's not wild and crazy and trying to hurt anyone, he just wants to get away....far, far away. Thank you again for your inputs, I'm absorbing it all to help me map out a game plan. Have a great day, I'll check back when I can take a lunch break.................. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 10:30 am: PattyB, your story of Banner brought a lump to my throat. I recall your posting when Banner died, but you didn't tell "the rest of the story." She must have been a special horse with a strong will to live. And I think many of us cause our neighbors and other non-horse people to wonder about our night time wanderings in pjs with various medicines, bottles, and wraps in our hands. Angie, I just wanted to comment in re: to ADD in people. True ADD is the result of a center in the brain (sorry, it's been awhile and I can't remember the name) which is puts out a particular hormone which stimulates the brain to respond to stimuli. In "normal" people, the output of this hormone is regulated. In people with ADD the hormone is excreted without proper regulation and at times there is too much and at other times there isn't enough. As kids get into their late teens, the hormonal levels often stablize. In some people this never happens, but the person learns how to control their behavior/physical response - how to compensate. Unless there is recent information I'm unaware of, nutrition has little to do with it. However, there are also individuals which have allergies to certain food colorings and additives, and part of the reaction in an overstimulation response which mimics ADD. I believe their are horse which are overly sensitive to stimuli. Whether or not this is similar to ADD in people I don't know. I know I've had horses that are overly sensitive to touch, to loud noise, something they see, etc. I think extra B vitamins helps these horses, but isn't a "cure." The horse I've had seemed to have learned to trust my reaction to noise etc. when under saddle or being lead, but have always had to be groomed with very soft brushes and my hands, and have always remained extra responsive to stimuli when turned out. These horses have also been sensitive to many shampoos, sprays, etc. |
| Member: ekaufman |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 7:49 pm: Elizabeth,You have a Happy Thanksgiving too! I hear what you are saying, and I think you misunderstood part of my post (o.k., I was typing at 1:30 a.m., not the best time for communication!) I don't think anyone who has a drinking problem should try to self medicate with vitamins to offset the drinking. And the info I was referring to, is old, and I am not honestly up on what is current because I've decided the family drunks can stay drunk and it's their flipping problem! (saying that with humor!)There was some tidbit I read years ago, but that was before DNA testing, and more. I think it is a disease that some are more likely to get than others. And like so many health issues, physical or otherwise, there is not always a cut and dried answer/cure. Geesh, I hope no one kills themselves thinking they can drink more if they take some vitamins or witches brew! Sara, I have a brother in law who is ADD, and you are correct in that is something wrong in the brain, and he does need meds to help. He says without the meds, it's like 20 or so tv channels all on at once in his mind. And I don't think any vitamin or supplement can help him, it is a man made drug that gives him a normal life. Patty, It will take as long as it takes to answer your question. Do baby steps, and btw, I tried one of the calming sups for my over sensitive to everything guy, and I didn't notice any difference. Good luck. (Off to take my vitamins and have a class of wine! )
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 9:19 pm: Wow, this thread has been busy today....thank you all for your input. What I have seen over the years with people is that those who tend to have alcoholics in their family tree seem to have a seratonin imbalance that is part or all of the problem. When the doctor puts them on a low dose medication to correct the imbalance, they become much more stable with everyday life's ups and downs. Those who don't but manage to quit drinking seem to fly off the handle at every little thing and once they're in a bad mood, hang it up and call again tomorrow............. From what I remember, the medication was usually a low dose antidepressant, much lower than would be used for clinical depression. The results I have seen were quite remarkable, they just sailed thru life much calmer than they were before and much better able to handle everyday stresses. Remarkably, I had a customer today who told me of a pill the vet put a relative's dog on and when she wrote it down, I recognized it immediately as one of the very drugs I had been referring to above. I had no idea it was being used in dogs, what an interesting concept. The dog was described as being wild and sometimes aggressive until it was put on meds, now, it acts normal...whatever that is lol. Kind of adds to my original question............ I know to some, my questions sound way out there but I can't help but remember that 25 years ago I stood in a vet's office insisting that my cat getting into the dog's dry dog food was somehow causing his bladder infections. The vet explained to me that a bladder infection is caused by a bacteria and that there was no bacteria in dry dog food....... Years later, someone discovered that ash content in pet food was the culprit, first causing an irritation or blockage, then the environment was ripe for the growth of bacteria to set in. I had another interesting conversation with a different vet about 16 years ago....about kennel cough. Somehow, we got into a conversation about diseases communicable between people and pets and I told him that I had kennel cough twice...he scoffed so, I shut up. Just this past summer, we were discussing the decline in the effectiveness of a popular topical flea preventative when he pulled out a veterinarian's magazine. In the magazine was a huge article about the diseases that can be passed back and forth between household pets and humans........low and behold, right there on the list---->kennel cough. Been there, done that, had it twice. Maybe because of those experiences I tend to look at some issues from an angle most have not. What if there is a medical explanation for why some horses are so strung out they cannot seem to function properly...thru no fault of their own? Perhaps in the next 10-20 years there will be more research that could answer that question? And to add to the concept of "who knows," Banner and I had a definite psychic connection, our own unspoken language. She knew that if anything big had gone wrong that day, all she had to do was stick her head in the corner and I would wonder what was wrong. One night, she was particularly upset while I groomed her.....so I put the brush down, walked inside to the livingroom, sat down with my husband and son and said "OK, what happened at feeding time?" Their eyes nearly bugged out of their heads! Seems there was a problem getting them in and at some point, a feed can went airborne out of frustration. Long story short--->they didn't notice the horse eating fishing pole and bucket in the neighbor's back yard. LOLOL...ever since I told my husband that back in high school, I had an english teacher that did a rather unusual test, he stopped questioning the connection that I had with Banner: My teacher had a deck of cards that consisted of 4 different symbols, 5 of each in the deck. For the test, she would look at the top card, we were to right down what we thought it was...20 times. That meant that for each symbol, you had a one in five chance of getting it right....one in five. When she was finished, she went back thru the deck and showed us in order what each card was...then I noticed her staring at my paper as I checked each one of the first ten off as correct. I got a few more right after that but it was 10 in a row that I had right. That was actually a little scary to me but it made me think that there are things out there that we don't understand...but that doesn't mean they don't exist, we just can't prove it on paper so to say...yet. Oh my, sorry for rambling, I guess my mind just wanted to wander from one track to the tuther...lol. I hope you all have a wonderful holiday tomorrow...and enjoy the game. I was hoping to know Ziggy's test results today, even called the clinic and asked the receptionist to let the doctor know I was patiently sitting in the corner waiting for the results. She laughed and said that he had been on emergencies all day but, she would let him know to look for any word on the remaining tests. No word so far, maybe Friday? Gotta get out the door to feed, thanks again for adding your thoughts to the thread......sometimes it tough being the newbie on the block.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 27, 2008 - 7:11 am: Patty I agree with you an owner who is very close to their animals KNOWS when somethings wrong. Some people are just "more in tune" with it.I have the same relationship with my animals to the point the vet does listen to my "off the wall" findings, and he knows I know the horses hoof to head like the back of my hand. I can look at them and know somethings not right or something happened when I wasn't around. BUT here is the problem I have found with it. Sometimes I think there is a deeper problem than there really is, and it as simple as ignoring it, or just keeping an eye on them. (HA taught me that) My vet never doubts when I tell him somethings NQR, but he also keeps me grounded by talking to me through the medical aspect of it....If it isn't going to kill them let it play out! Horses have very different personalities just like people. I really tried to figure out why my horned one Hank was like he was. There's really no ans. other than that is his personality. The more I tried to change it, the worse he got...so we work with it, and he really is a wonderful, intelligent, loving horse with a bit of devil thrown in! If all your tests come back OK. Taking the he's just special route might surprise you. Since taking that route with Hank, he has become pretty much "normal" trying to change his personality through supplements/drugs was not the way to go! I decided to let Hank be Hank because he is "special" Good Luck and happy Thanksgiving
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| Member: maggienm |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 27, 2008 - 1:30 pm: Good afternoon and HAPPY THANKSGIVING everyone. Diane, you made me chuckle because as soon as my gut feels "red flag," I just take note and keep an eye on it. Sometimes, it's just a vibe, nothing you can put your finger on, but I know to pay attention. If it's important, I'll know real soon...like a colic brewing or an abscess. This morning while out in the barn, I got to thinking about something that Banner and I used to do, when I used to board her and Buck, a gelding I had until losing him to cancer at the age of 35. There were aprox. 30 horses there and it was hard to get her out of the pasture without the others crowding the gate and kicking. I actually showed this to a friend of mine, who was in the area for a maintenance test pilot course: I wanted to get Banner out of the field so I told him to just stand quietly and watch. As softly as I could, I whispered her name and only got as loud as it took for her to hear me. Once she heard me, she would pick her head up out of the herd, see which gate I was going to head for, then put her head back down and continue to graze...while ever so slowly drifting out of the crowd. Once she was reasonably clear, but still with her head down, she would take off running and meet me at the gate...leaving the other horses (and my friend) wondering how we did that....lol. She was so smart. My most priceless moment with her, there wasn't anyone around to see it but me...darn it, it really was priceless: While I was still in the barn cleaning stalls one morning, she and Buck had meandered out to pasture but, 5 minutes later, she was standing in the doorway of the stall I was cleaning and just begging for "help." I remember laughing and asking her what was wrong and clear as day, she turned her head sideways as if to point "it's out there." Clueless what it could be, I walked out to the gate and sure enough, my dad next door had parked his boat close enough to the gate that they were afraid it would attack them as they went by. Neither of them would pass it until I went out and stood between it and them. From that point on, they never gave it a second thought..and my dad boarded the boat at a boatel shortly after. What really touched my heart was the way she stood in the doorway contorting herself to say "It's over there mom...and I'm affeared of it." Somehow, she just knew I would go "fix" the problem. Several years later, when I asked my vet to test her for Cushing's, she became fully retired once I got the results back. (She didn't have the classic symptom yet, it was just one of those gut things.) She had earned her retirement years and I was happy to provide them for her......but then one day, a baby Ziggy showed up. Banner took one look at 3 month old Ziggy and looked at me as if to say "Mom, what have you done???" Although I wanted the breeder to keep him a few more months, she brought him here at just 3 months old. I tried to explain to Banner that I wanted Ziggy to grow up to be special, just like her, but I needed her to teach him how. I knew her years were numbered...and she did eventually bond with the "little thorn." I well remember the first day he walked into her stall, as I sat at the table with tears in my eyes wondering if I was going to see an airborne Ziggy fly thru the air like the goat in the movie Sea Bisquit (or as we gently refer to him here as Lake Muffin). Ziggy and Banner bonded well, and she did teach him how to "be special," to well sometimes...lol. I'm forever grateful that I had Bokay here to be with him when I lost her though, she kept him from being all alone and I think that helped a lot to get him thru the first couple of days............ Sigh....there I went babbling again....... With today being a holiday, I hope to hear from the vet tomorrow on the rest of the test results. I know the insulin one was the holdup but that should have been back on Tuesday or Wednesday...unless the holiday schedule backed it up a few days. Oh well, time to get back to the kitchen and start putting the rest of dinner together while the turkey is in the oven. I have 3 deserts ready so now it's just a matter of finishing the final touches, then everyone will start arriving around 3:00....for dinner, Dallas game and half time desert. My favorite part---->the stuffing that comes out of the turkey. Anyway, sorry for babbling, I guess it's the holiday nostalgia thing setting in. Have a great Thanksgiving, tomorrow you're all invited over for tree trimming, shopping and left overs.
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| Member: pattyb |
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| Member: ekaufman |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 2, 2008 - 4:51 pm: Hi Elizabeth...and thank you for commenting. I haven't done much with the exercising while I was waiting on these test results. He's usually fairly active when turned out in the arena where there is minimal grass. He's a get into'er and searches for things to get into. Once they get pasture time, he doesn't come up for air until 5:00 come in from the grass feeding time. As for the hay, I had always fed all of them one pad each (2 pounds) twice daily, morning and night (go to bed) time. That in addition to Triple Crown Lite and grass time kept their weight in check and vitamin/minerals covered. If one horse needs more weight, I add beet pulp for fiber and energy if I can't increase grass time. I had tried feeding him the 1.5% of his body weight approach and he blew up....15 pounds in a week or two. That works fine for the others but not for him. Since I posted this thread starter, I went online and researched slightly elevated protein and when all else is normal, it does appear to be a hydration issue....and not unusual in cold weather. Then I also researched slightly elevated cortisol...and almost fell out of my chair (Diane). Everything I read in an article at Horse.Com links cortisol to increased thirst, urination and appetite. Ziggy was so well described I was expecting to find a picture of him in the article. What all of the above lead me to believe is that like has happened to many on this board, I have an IR horse that has not been proven with one fasting insulin test. The symptoms fit him to a T and even my vet understands that one negative test is not conclusive, especially given the circumstances. Add to that the supplements he has been on for over 2 months and they may well have helped to keep/bring the insulin reading down. Now I know the word supplement opens up a whole nuther conversation but, this is what I know: A young lady at my local farm co-op store is in the process of getting her feeding specialist certifications and, this is what she came back from a seminar to tell me: There is no proven evidence that supplements containing magnesium and or chromium have any effect on insulin or cresty necks EXCEPT in a product called Quiessence. They don't know how or why it works but it appears to them that, it does. To be fair and honest here, I had put him on it about 6 weeks ago just to see if it might help with his mood swings and as I researched more, that was when I realized I might well have an IR horse. What all that leads to is a watch and see approach, take the time to try the ulcer meds, increase exercise as I rule out an ulcer.....and just hang in there and see where we are in a few more months. Maybe, just maybe, Quiessence will or is helping him....I don't want to take him off of it right now to see. Many of the reviews that I read on the product said that even the calming aspect of it may take several months for some...so, I'll be able to comment on that as well in a few more months. I remember reading some reviews that said as much as 5 months before they saw a drastic difference....but the point was that they did. With that in mind and given his IR symptoms, it's at least worth a try. And much to my comfort, the maker of it has been highly accessable when I have questions about IR and her product.......and others that have nothing to do with either. Thanks again for commenting Elizabeth, I gotta scoot and go feed (and do the housecleaning I have yet to touch because I've been at the computer alll day ).
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| Member: lhenning |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 2, 2008 - 9:27 pm: Patty I think I mentioned above that I tried the Quiessence on Hank. It really did make him pee and drink more!!! He would pee twice on short rides. He was on it for aprox 6 mos. his increased urination and drinking did not subside until I removed it. At the time I didn't put 2 and 2 together until I removed it and the excessive drinking and peeing stopped. It never helped him at all that I could tell.He actually is a very happy, friendly, not moody horse at all...Just a little challenging under saddle. The quiessence didn't help that either Ziggy may well be IR and everyone that owns one has to figure out how to manage that individual horse....not an easy task, even between my 3 they all can tolerate or not tolerate different things. Sam The arab gelding can not handle clover, or fall grass.(he's a moody, flighty, pees alot, but over all a nice dependable horse.)He's the one I couldn't give shots to...no matter what I tried until I introduced the chain...He sounds very similar to Ziggy's personality type. Hank doesn't tolerate any alfalfa or spring grass well. (he is a happy horse and not moody at all) Flash has the looks of an IR horse..cresty neck, gains weight easily ect. but she seems to tolerate everything well except a lot of alfalfa. (she is moody, sometimes loves a good brushing... sometimes doesn't. Sometimes she comes over for petting and attention... sometimes doesn't. When she doesn't want attention...she don't get any . So they are all different, with different personalities. Whether the IR has anything to do with it, I don't know for sure, I just work with what I have that day.
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 - 10:02 am: Good morning and thanks for commenting. Angie, teeth were checked about a year ago and were all fine. Presently, no head tilting or spilling food so that has not been a forward issue, more like on the back burner....but worth looking into now that you mention it. Dr.O.....his work load is pretty nill right now. With the holiday schedule, I'm working ten hour days with 5 minute lunches, well past dark by the time I finish.....and it's been that way since summertime with no September slow down. With that in mind, I've been trying to find his maintenance levels of food and turn out time. Turn out time is from 10:30-2:30 in the fairly barren arena with access to the barn. At 2:30, I let them out onto the real grass in the pasture for about 2 1/2 hours, more as the grass is dying off for the season. Sometimes they all get to running, other days they're too busy eating the grass to be bothered. I've been wanting to start lunging him but was waiting on the test results....but that all leads to another question: How much trotting should he do if I am taking him thru a course of ulcer meds to rule out an ulcer? My concern is the splish splash effect....although from what I've read, I don't think he has one but as some have said, it's worth ruling out. Thank you all again for commenting...I'm learning a lot here.
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| Member: erika |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 - 10:36 am: PattyB, forgive me if I sound blunt but I want to keep this concise. I think your horse is an intelligent young horse that is BORED. He is well fed, underexercised, and simply at an age where he is finding out about his own influence--on you, as well as other herd members.From what I've read, other than off and on moodiness he has no symptoms of ulcers. Forgive me for thinking you are throwing away money on that angle. He isn't lame, so no reason to take riding out of the equation. I would be willing to bet he's slightly spoiled (as are mine--which is why it waves a flag to me! ), and his moodiness is a bit of an attempt at raising his pecking order. If you think he's dehydrated, a heater in the tank will encourage him to drink more. If he were my horse, I would put his hay in a double hay net so it takes twice as long to eat. I would feed less grain, take the freeze off the water; and most importantly, work him. If you are too busy to ride or exercise him yourself can you find a horse-crazy teen to ride him? I do that sometimes--believe me, I am such a "fair weather rider"! My little teenager friend is thrilled to ride a different horse once in a while and it does them both good. If you find a health problem, I'll eat my words, but I bet if he were a ranch horse being used daily all his symptoms would vanish. Best of luck in finding what works! Erika |
| Member: stek |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 - 10:57 am: Patty, I can commiserate with not having much time to work horses with long work days and short daylight hours. However when faced with symptoms such as yours (moody, easy keeper) the FIRST thing I would try is exercise 4x per week. Since he hasn't been getting any exercise at all, I would start with 5 minutes walking, 10 minutes easy trotting, and a long cool down, working my way up to 20-25 minutes trotting as he gets more fit.If you don't have the time or opportunity to exercise him regularly, can you do simple ground work with him just to give him daily interaction? I have found spending just 15 minutes each day handling a horse in a constructive way (basically demanding that they focus on me and do what I ask, for example, while grooming) gives them something to think about and helps keep their mind busy. It also changes the way they see you (herd boss rather than nanny or waitress!) I would also suggest that to rule out medical issues, you make only one change at a time to rule things out systematically. You mentioned above that you had him checked for IR but that he was already on a diet and supplementation to treat IR. This makes it impossible to tell whether diet changes were helping or whether he was just not an IR horse. I would personally not treat at all to get accurate test results, then try one treatment at a time and re-test .. it's the only way you can tell what is working. You might also try keeping a daily journal of observations while you are treating to help give perspective later. Think of him as a big, warm, fuzzy science experiment Good luck! |
| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 - 8:25 pm: Phew, what a day and I still have a dishwasher to empty. So many points to cover so forgive me if I seem to ramble from one to the tuther........... I feed medium quality coarse orchard grass hay in double haynets in an attempt to slooooow him down. It adds about 10 minutes. I don't soak the hay but I do stand there and hose all the nets down to add moisture for about 10 minutes...that's always been done to help prevent impactions. The haynets with the smaller holes that I ordered on Monday should be here any day now......... Water buckets are heated but they walk right past them and drink the cold stuff most of the time. Great invention though, pull them out right after the first frost. Every night, both horses are groomed, feet picked and he has an additional step--->laser temping his feet looking for any variation between front feet and back. Puzzles me that he seems to dislike being brushed, especially between withers and rump.....with the exception of a wire slicker brush, the only one he likes on his body, soft brush on legs, couldn't care less how hard I pull on his mane when he manages to somehow braid it alll by himself.....lol. As for the negative IR based on one fasting insulin....not reliable enough to rule it out as has been found by many here on the board. I think the phrase I heard was about a quacking duck? To get a totally reliable test result requires hospitalization so blood can be drawn every couple of hours with a set feeding schedule. Because of the expense and inconvenience, the quacking duck route is usually assumed and the horse is treated as if he is IR, proven or not. He quacks so much like an IR duck I'm expecting to find him in the back yard with the other ducks any day now...lol. Someone had also mentioned that their horse became very grumpy but had no other symptoms...and the horse turned completely around after a course of ulcer meds. Because of the amount of time he spends with an empty stomach, it's worth considering. I've even tried feeding him just bermuda grass hay so he can have more...he gained weight off of that too. Spoiled? Yup. I think that covers it but if I left anything out, it wasn't intentional. He's certainly a puzzle but he is the most interactive horse I've ever had. Try to do something in the paddock and he's right there in the middle of it trying to ummmm, help. Leave something out by accident and you will surely find in 20 feet away the next day...in the mud. Thanks for your comments and questions today.
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 9:48 am: I'm eyeing the lunge line as I map out my plans for today. Have to run into town by 11:00 but I could do some lunging later this afternoon while the ground is still soft.
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 7:23 pm: OK.......I did it, we lunged today. Only had about 10 minutes worth but it was a start...and he did real good. We walked, trotted, whoa'ed and backed several times...and I had 3 sugarfree pieces of candy in my pocket to tell him he was a good boy. As much as he didn't really seem to want to take off and drag me around the paddock, he did seem to enjoy the "togetherness" when we were done. I know 10 minutes wasn't much but it was out of the blue for him and he did real well. But this is why I was late: I haven't been feeling well today (recovering from a nauseating headache) but had things I had to do. On my very first stop, I found myself in the same small store as my least favorite neighbor....the very one that shot off professional grade fireworks 150 yards from my barn two years ago. Ziggy was terrified and rearing in the stall, then slamming the door about ready to try to come over it when she ran out of fireworks. Fireworks are forbidden in my county and not only did she wreak havoc here, but one fell over and shot into the woods starting a fire. Thankfully they were able to put it out and I didn't hear about that part for another year, we are surrounded by miles of woods. But what gives me heartburn to this day is that my favorite neighbor told her they would cause problems at my house and her very words were "That's to bad, it's my property and I'll do as I want." Then she tops it off by lying to the deputy the next day and denied having them...until she called the deputy back later and confessed. And it didn't stop there....when I saw her a month later, she had the audacity to suggest that maybe I sedate him next year. I let her have it, and that's not to mention her dogs coming here and killing chickens by my front door. That entire event that night happened so fast and so unexpectedly, it made me sick to my stomach. She has horses herself and calls herself a trainer but I have to ask, what kind of trainer would knowingly do that to their neighbor? Then lie about it? And suggest I sedate them so she can shoot off illegal fireworks again the next year? Bah! Now on a much brighter note, because I staid at one end of the store waiting for her to leave, I got home late to find a box on my steps....and in it were my new Roma haynets...the ones with the 2 inch openings. They look just like a regular haynet except the holes are smaller. The invoice has them priced at $6.95 so I bought 4 of them, and they don't charge shipping. I'll be feeding at 9:30, then go back out to let them out of their stalls before I go to bed...I'll be sure to let you know how it goes. He usually wolfs his hay down in an hour, we'll see how long it takes now....lol.
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 9:59 am: Update on the Roma haynets:With slight hesitation, I hung his haynet last night wondering if the holes were to small. At first he played around with it, then figured out how to pull some of the hay out the top....but all in all, the net was a success. This morning while feeding, I noticed the haynet slowed him down to twice as long...which is good. The only thing I will do differently next time I order them is to order the larger size. My old haynet was a small size but the Roma small is even smaller than that.....only fits about one pad at a time. I did buy extras but don't usually feed more than a pad at one time anyway. If I need more, I'll just make up another net. Main objective accomplished though..it slowed him down. And while I'm visiting.....I am happy to say that he has lost weight, 11 pounds even while increasing pasture time (which is where they really want to be). My usual plan is pasture from 11:00-4:30ish as the grass dies off for the winter....I just may get there after all.
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2008 - 9:50 am: I accidently posted this in the thread about Heiro yesterday but wanted to move it over here for comments: I'm in a bit of a rush this morning (late again) but I wanted to share this little tidbit: Last night when I fed for the night, Ziggy was an absolute dream, calm, quiet, very gentle towards his momma. He was so mellow and sweet that I even mentioned it to hubby when he came out a little later. I was sooo floored, I even asked Ziggy why he was in such a good mood. The weather was a little warmer but all I did last night was pick feet and brush manes...but even that, he was perfect. Totally stumped, I just said "thank you for being such a good boy tonight." Little did I know--------> When hubby fed at 5:00 (while I hosed down the haynets), he closed the pasture gate BUT, he forgot to close the back door to the other barn....and guess what direction Ziggy came from when I fed at 9:30? YUP. Sometime after he would have been done with his 5:00 haynet, he discovered the open door and went back out. I don't know if it was for maybe 1 hour or possibly 3 hours but much to my relief (due to the dead grass), he is fine both last night and this morning....... Now I find myself thinking back---->Why did his sneak attack on the pasture mellow him out so much? There was no aggression, no foul mood, no "protecting" his hay...he just acted normal, why? Could this be a clue to something? He has no flags to say ulcer (lack of appetite, loose stools, biting or stancing...but could it be? Is there an irritation going on that his stomach needs food to prevent? Dr.O, I hope you're reading this, my inquiring mind really wants to know. |
| Member: cgby1 |
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: mrose |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2008 - 9:23 pm: Good evening ladies and thanks for visiting. Cynthia...right now I feed 3 times/day but add a feeding when there is snow on the ground or it's in the extreme cold for my area. At night, they go from 11:00-8:00ish before the next meal comes out. Diane....to answer your question , they are only confined to stalls long enough to eat so there's no stealing. Once they're done with their bedtime meal, I let them out of the stalls but leave the doors open. They each have their own bare paddock to wander, Ziggy's being quite large so he has plenty of room for himself and his toys. I do use electric tape to divide up the grass pasture for various seasons. Right now, it fences off a path to the well worn arena where they go in the morning while waiting for 1:30 real pasture time. At all times, they have access to the barn and paddocks if they wish to come in out of the weather. PS: If you want to knock yourself out cold, duck under a high powered electric pulse fence and come up under it hitting it with the back of your head. Down and out wondering how I got there.
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 7:20 pm: Greetings and good day to all. I know it has been quite a while since I updated on Ziggy's issues but, I did finally figure him out and have spent the last two weeks verifying it: In exasperation, I called the vet who formulates the feeds for Southern States in my district. He has a PhD. in equine nutrition and took the time to go over everything I had done, tried, read, wondered and tested. Much to my relief, he knew exactly what the problem was...and told me how to test his theory...which proved to be absolutely right. Like Diane's Hank, the fasting insulin did not mean he wasn't suffering from insulin resistance. In his opinion, an elevated fasting insulin means the condition has been undiagnosed and untreated for some time before it shows up. Because I was catching this early enough, it just wasn't there yet. As I explained the mood swings and how I could always tell a good day from a bad day by the way he approached his hay, he said that his moods were being affected by the elevated insulin levels during the daytime. Maybe his Arabness makes him easier to read but as soon as he said that, everything fell into place. It wasn't an ulcer, it wasn't an underlying bad attitude, he just didn't feel well, being overcome by the "starvation." To test his theory, he had me cut way back on even the dead winter grass. Keep cutting him back and watch if the starvation didn't become less and less an issue. Then when I found that point, what did his moods do? I am happy to report, after two weeks of experimenting, that I have found the trigger.....whenever he comes in starving and cranky, cut back the grass time until he feels and behaves better. Right now, that point is 4 hours of real grazing time. They go in and out of the dry paddocks and the arena all day, then out in the pasture from 1-5:00. If increasing the time on pasture makes him come in starved, cut back again....but so far, no starvation and a much better mood. The starvation for him is the key......what triggers it, triggers the moods as well. As a back-up opinion, even the farrier commented on how well he did this week when he was here....on a very cold and windy day. Instead of acting like a spoiled brat with ADD, he was his normal spirited but obliging good self. As I close, the vet that helped me with this said that as I get the weight off of him (about 30-50 pounds to go), he will be less and less susceptible to the insulin overload being triggered. The fat itself plays into metabolizing the carbs so as that comes off, he should do better and better with the starvation trigger....wich in turn, triggers his moods. He's lost 12 pounds in the past two weeks, never got obese but should do better between 700-725. Right now, I can feel his ribs but he still has something of a very movable crest. So, that's our update and I am very happy to say we're on that road to recovery. He's feeling better, eating better and yes, much more pleasant to work with. PS: Thank you HA for including a spell checker, this thing was a mess.
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| Member: zarr |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 7:30 pm: Very impressive work,Patty! Nice that you have a vet who really thought things thru too! You and Ziggy will be much happier! and Yes I think it was probably his arabness too, !
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 8:35 pm: Patty thanks for the update However I am confused as usual . Are you saying that being on grass made him go into starvation mode? Because of increased insulin from the grass? Can you explain that a little better? (the chemistry of it, so to speak) I'm very curious. Thanks |
| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 9:47 pm: Hi Diane....I will do my best but may flub in the translation. Right now, due to some of the extra weight he is carrying (not much, 30-50 pounds), whenever he eats too much grass, including dead winter grass, he can't properly utilize the carbs without producing the excess insulin. The excess insulin being directly or indirectly related to his feelings of starvation. Once the starvation switch is turned on, he gets ornery...becasue he thinks he's starving. His cells are having trouble metabolizing the carbs and that triggers the starvation switch. This all explains why some IR horses can have no grass at all, he can have 4 hours worth before things go haywire. Without intervention, the more he eats, the more trouble he gets into and the more he thinks he's starving so, the more he eats...and it becomes a viscous cycle. By cutting him back on pasture (even dead grass has sugar in it), he doesn't get the excess insulin flooding his system trying to get that glucose into his cells. When I talked to my local vet about the conversation, he admitted that they are just recently realizing how the fat itself interferes with the utilization of the carbs in their food. They used to just think it was a health hazard in terms of founder...but now they know that it somehow plays into the metabolism, wreaking havok in some cases. It's all part of the new focus on equine metabolic synDrOmes. For Ziggy, once he feels like he's being starved, he acts like he's being starved on purpose. As I cut him back on the grass time, the insulin levels mellowed out, the feelings of starvation decreased a great deal, all making him happier at the end of the day. In essence, his cells get more out of less and as he loses those extra pounds, they will become that much more efficient. Maybe to some this doesn't add up....but I tried his way of testing the theory and it worked every time. Right now, he gets 6 pounds of hay in small hole haynets, divided into three servings. His grain is Triple Crown Lite (2 pounds divided by 3) for his vitamin/minerals and Quiessence divided the same way. Not only has he felt and acted better for me but he was more relaxed for the farrier......and handled the skunk in the tackroom next to his stall the other night fairly well. I didn't know it was there and wondered why he seemed on alert until the chickens that roost in there raise a racket. I opened the door only to have a hen jump up in my arms that had been setting. When I went to put her back, I quickly changed directions and slooooowly backed away. The skunk, was rooting thru her eggs. This is the same skunk that I literally barged in on two years ago and didn't realize it was there until we were only 3 feet apart from each other. It was midnight and I was just shoving the wheel barrow in there before I went to bed. My first encounter was a story all in itself: I was in a hurry and shoved the wheel barrow in there and while I was still standing between the handles, I noticed something black move just 3 feet to my right. At first I thought maybe it was a black snake soooo, without moving my feet, I turned to see a real pretty black furry cat....with white stripes! Keeping in mind that I had barged in and was now blocking the only exit, I just froze, didn't even exhale. At some point though, I turned my head again, noticed that it didn't seem alarmed by my sudden presence and God help me, the dumbest thing I ever said came flying out of my mouth----> I actually said out loud "You ok with this?" He looked at me as if to say "Ok with what?" In one fell swoop, I was outta there, thru the gate and back inside in about 30 seconds. OMG! I was just 3 feet from a skunk and he didn't let me "have it!" It was almost 2 years when we crossed paths again Friday night. Anyway, Ziggy handled that well, must have seen it go in there from the beginning. I thought there was a faint smell in the air but not enough to place it.....but he knew the whole time it was there.....lol. I hope I answered your questions. It may sound odd but in Ziggy's case, it worked....I've tested it several times in the last two weeks. |
| Member: hollyw |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 11:03 pm: Sounds good to me Holly.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 5:47 am: Patty, thanks for the explanation, glad it is working for you and Ziggy. Last year my vet was quite adament that adipose tissue...in my fat horses were responsible for a few things. It is a quite an interesting theory. My vet said that's why they didn't react to their shots last year, like they do every year...they were in good weight last year. This may be all coincidences, who knows. I had to of course research this adipose theory, and it is a theory as Dr.O. said. here is an article I found last year on pub med. To the right of it there are related articles. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSear ch=12508947&log$=activity |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 9:25 am: Patty,You and your vet deserve a big pat on the back! A job well done! When I was reading your explanation of mood swings with Ziggy, I was thinking "Heck, I have a husband and son who act like that if they don't eat often enough!" They both drive me nuts, they need food NOW, and it's like they are in the kitchen every 20 minutes! Diane, I read that article you posted above, and I have to tell ya all, there has been a lot of talk lately about this idea that fat is like another organ, and how it affects your hormones and such. And your hormones affect everything about you. It's new to me, and new to the medical world too I think, so I can't explain it well but I've been reading about it as I study the role of hormones in us as we age. So it seems in a nutshell: More fat creates more hunger because the insulin levels are affected, and the fat affects various hormones, which in turn affects (or is it effects??)moods, and the need to eat more to "self medicate." Some books I've read said that in women, fat produces more estrogen, and makes the fat a fat magnet...which I am putting in here because I have an older Arab mare who gets fat every winter, and I am curious because her mood also seems to worsen. So I wonder if the high starch diets don't make the horses hormones all messed up and cause more problems than just the insulin being elevated? And does it make a difference with mares more than geldings? Hence the "moody mare" problems. And ya, I think I need my insulin levels and hormones adjusted, I feel like I am not able to put this post together very well today...my brain feels scattered..ugh, I hate that. |
| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 10:05 am: Diane....thanks, I tried to make sense as best I could with a subject that is at best, confusing on the surface. I really had to dig for months before I knew what and who to ask, then ask them to dumb it down so I could understand the answer. Angie....."So it seems in a nutshell: More fat creates more hunger because the insulin levels are affected, and the fat affects various hormones, which in turn affects (or is it effects??)moods, and the need to eat more to "self medicate." I think the worst part of the entire equation is trying to explain that to the horse that is experiencing the synDrOme. All he knows is that he's starving and you're the one controlling the feed bins. Poor little guy, and yes, you're right, he was in essence trying to self medicate. And, he was miserable inside and out until I understood why. Now that I know even dead winter grass triggers the insulin which triggers the starvation which triggers the foul mood, he has done soooo much better....and should improve even more as I get rid of 30 more pounds. Gotta go but thank you both for chiming in, it was quite a learning experience for several, including me. |
| Member: mrose |
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: maggienm |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 1:15 pm: Very interesting discussion. I wonder if there is something else, something without a name yet?I know that I feel better if I eat about every two hours. If I choose a high sugar snack I will crash and burn. I have also noticed that the heavier I am the hungrier I am. Hmmm. I don't know how similar the horse system and human system are since we are carnivores and they are herbivores but this is certainly food for thought..... AAAnnnd, while I don't necessarily think my mood is affected my others do think so. |
| Member: ekaufman |
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| Member: shanson |
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| Member: stek |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 2:22 pm: LOL! Ya, others might disagree on the mood changes with us, we might not see it! Ever try telling someone they are crabby and need a nap, or snack? O.K., how about a fat(ter) horse that gets to be more like a slug, and not hyper & hard to handle? Or, the horse gets heavier, and joint issues cause pain, causing some ear pinning, etc? Or now the saddle don't fit correctly, causing pain? There are sooo many variables. I enjoy the different ideas we throw around, but as I said some place before, KISS sure seems to be the best plan IMHO. And unless our horses are in endurance riding, I don't think any of them get enough of the right kind of movement nature intended them to have! Ya, I read the article in Equus about how many of the horses are overweight, and went and checked my fur balls. NO ONE is FAT, but they are a tad heavier being it's winter. Side Note: I think it will be interesting to see where a discussion like this will be in 10 years. The leaps & bounds in the medical & nutrition world as fascinating for us and equines. |
| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 2:53 pm: DrO......I have been around horses for almost 45 years and am well versed in what to expect from horses fed too much energy food....as in pinging off the walls. This, has been different. He has done well on days that he does not have the starvation thing going. Once that kicks in, it's downhill from that point on. With that in mind, he would be my first experience with energy directly causing feelings of starvation.My conversation with the PhD in equine nutrition was very in depth....he asked many questions, and so did I. With this particular horse, the key was to find the starvation trigger and in his opinion with this horse, it was his system being flooded with insulin trying to metabolize his glucose intake that was causing the problems. And thru two weeks of experimenting, he appears to be right (with this horse). Perhaps I have an unusual case but I've had this horse since he was 3 months old. I know a hyper horse when I see one, the other horse I have that came to me from Conn. being a perfect example....she couldn't relax hardly at all. I changed her feed and just let her relax and enjoy being here. A few months later, she was a totally different horse. As to severely restricting Ziggy's feed intake.....that is hardly the case considering his size. Everything I am doing with this horse is under the care of my local vet and on the advice of two PhD's with their degrees in equine nutrition. Right now, his intake is slightly restricted because he is on that nasty word "diet." Consequently, as he loses weight, the starvation synDrOme is/will become less and less of a problem, a theory so far appearing to be right (in this case). If Ziggy were energy ornery, I would feel differently but from what I have seen lately, he is only ornery when he has the starvation thing going.....which was when I let him have more grass time, winter or otherwise. Maybe this is a new theory, all I can say is that it is working here, all pieces falling into place after one phone conversation with someone who specializes in this field. Almost reminds me of standing in a vet's office 30 years ago insisting that my cat was getting urinary tract infections when he got into the dog's dry food. Back then, the theory was "how can dog food cause an infection?" Nobody knew about ash content blocking the tract and setting it up for the infection to get started....but no one believed me for a good 10-15 years when they discovered ash. Again, maybe he's an unusual case but the starvation trigger was the key....in this case. Find the cause (for him it's insulin) and adjust accordingly....I did and it worked...in this case. And yes, the more he weighed, the hungrier he was. Maybe, just maybe, they're onto something. PS: I have a diabetic son who was so ornery I (his mother) almost clobbered him until the doctor realized he was diabetic. Was actually ready to send him to a counselor but on the 3rd visit to his pediatrition, she finally thought to look there. PS#2.......try not to shoot the messenger, I just wanted to share a success story with all of you.
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| Member: stek |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 4:22 pm: Patty, as this is an emerging field I think we are all just looking to better understand the situation you are dealing with and how what you are doing works. Definitely not trying to shoot the messenger One of the reasons I asked about his work regimen is that I know exercise is recommended to diabetics to help lower blood glucose and help the body respond to insulin. In some cases exercise can eliminate the need for medication. If the two conditions are similar (diabetes and IR) I would think upping his exercise would be a logical place to start. I also asked for clarification on the amount of forage you are feeding for my own information; I am wondering where the safety limit is on limiting hay consumption in re overall digestive health. I am sure you have had this conversation with your vet, I'm just curious. Thanks for sharing your info! |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 4:36 pm: HMMMM I am on the fence here (as usual) FME some owners are VERY in tune with their horses. Young horses, well all horses should have some kind of exercise regimen it is one of the main things that helps keep the ir under control....speaking from experience. Being from the frigid part of the midwest with very little time or daylight when done with my job, the horses do not get exercise in the winter, I'm hoping that doesn't mean I shouldn't own horses The alternative is to diet them through the winter as much as is possible with this crazy weather. I don't think anyone should be chastised for trying to figure out their horses problem whether it be theory or fact. I must admit I don't quite follow the working theory of Ziggy, but stranger things have happened so I don't think anything should be discounted. Hank is an IR horse and whether he is skinny, fat, in work, or not his personality stays pretty much the same.(horned) Though there are days I wonder who the sweet horse is under me. As far as on the ground he is pretty stable regardless, but he is definitely one that needs a firm hand and is quite capable of scaring the he$$ out of people by ACTING onery given the opportunity.(that's why I love him) Patty there is nothing wrong with going with this theory, but there are variables as pointed out. I have thought so many times I had something finally figured out with my horses, only to find out weeks-mos. later it was just a coincidence it had resolved. You may very well be on to something, or maybe not...Time will tell Keep us informed....very interesting!
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| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 7:20 pm: Hello PattyB,I am not shooting the messenger, I am doing one of my jobs: discussing what is placed on these boards in light of the current science on horses filtered through my experiences as a equine veterinarian, breeder, and rider. When discussing basic biologic mechanisms it is important that we be clear on what is known, what is conjectured, and to be as accurate as possible. If we don’t we may make errors if we try to build on these mistaken basic principles. While we all agree that the horse is likely to become better behaved with a lower body condition score, when you say (or the nutritionist says), "your horses’s mood swings are brought on by intense starvation caused by the hyperinsulenemia" you are hypothesizing a very complicated process that has received no study in the horse. The effects of hyperinsulinemia on hunger and mood is unstudied in the horse and even poorly understood in the human. This is a very complicated mechanism that is difficult to study because insulin levels has such a wide ranging effect on just about every other metabolic function either directly or indirectly. However the hypothesis put forth above runs counter to everyone's common experience and the little bit of research done on the subject. Think about it: you get hungry when blood glucose and insulin levels are low and these are times most folks get moody. You become satiated as your blood glucose and insulin levels rise and as this occurs folks tend to become more mellow. There is one study that finds that when insulin levels in rats are elevated but blood glucose maintained at normal levels it appears to be suppressive on blood gherlin levels. Gherlin increase is thought to be increase hunger. So a current hypotheses in humans is hyperinsulinemia may act through gherlin to suppress hunger. It has to be pointed out that there are major differences in glucose metabolism and probably hunger control in different species and it certainly is an interesting conjecture but I don't find it a likely explanation of what is happening. If the nutritionist has references on this in horses I would be interested in them. I hate to bring this up at this time but feel a need to keep things accurate. The problem with ash content in cat foods in not that of urinary tract infection but one of the creation of urinary stones. However this long held hypothesis has been recently questioned. Critically important is to understand this is not the main reason feeding dog food to cats is a no-no. The critical problem is with the amino acid taurine that is essential to the cat but not the dog. Cat foods must be formulated with this in mind. We have to be able to discuss these issues in a frictionless environment or the whole board suffers PattyB. We value your experiences and contributions but you one reason this site is useful is because posts are critiqued against a fairly strict scientific standard. I welcome informed and polite dissent. Who knows you may change my mind it has happen at least once before.  DrO
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 7:46 pm: Shannon...to answer your question, his hay is very course low/medium quality orchard grass so it takes him a while to eat it and it seems to stay with him longer, especially in the special sized haynets I use for him.. The 6 pounds he gets is just under the 1% usually rec. for his ideal weight however....I did recently read an article where some breeds have to be cut back to almost 1/3 of their normal diet in order to get them to lose weight (I'm not going there). They found this to be true with horses used to sparse grazing areas, Arabs being one of them. If I have one thing half my county wishes they had, it's the quality of the grass in my pastures....green almost all year long no matter how hard I try to kill it, year after year. To answer you and Diane about the exercise....right now, not much other than keeping them turned out as much as possible. The ground is pretty well frozen here and he is barefoot. When I can, time, weather and ground conditions permitting, he gets lunged for a good 20 minutes. And yes, I know that IR is helped with exercise. Even my vet here agrees that much of EMS is still in a very gray area. It's only recently that they are finding that fat alone can interfere with the glucose/insulin balance. Funny thing is though, the PhD. I spoke with knew as soon as I said that Ziggy's moods coincided with whether or not he felt like he was starving were related to IR, negative test or not. For Ziggy, if he feels like he's starving, he's a bear and it was indeed interesting that as I cut him back, he felt less and less starved...which is exactly what the doc suspected would happen.....somehow. It's all very interesting and something I plan to follow over the years as more and more research is completed. Diane...your comments about the "horned one" made me laugh as Ziggy has my son totally buffaloed. I think it started out as sibling rivalry that neither one outgrew. If Ziggy pins his ears back, Jason jumps back and stances like he's going to karate chop him in half...lololol. Sometimes I have to break them up and send both of them back to their rooms. I know this last comment will cause some eye rolling but there is one more factor that comes into play here: I used to think that I was jinxed when it came to pets with health problems. Cats, dogs, horses, goats, chickens...it made no difference. But one day, I realized that God was watching out for me as I dealt with each one...and then I realized what he was really doing....he brings me the special needs ones because he knows that I will do my best to understand and treat them. Up until 5 years ago, I had a QH buckskin dunn gelding that had ringbone and sidebone from a previous lifestyle. I had owned him for several years for simple pleasure riding when we found it. In most cases, he would have been put down, even the attending vet at the time looked at his x-rays and blurted out "This horse should have been dead a long time ago." Because he was only mildly lame, I was quietly somewhat offended by that remark. In spite of his condition, he lead a good life for another 16 years, eventually losing him to squamous cell carcenomas that had spread beyond the partial penilectomy he had years prior. Then there was my Cushings horse with the botched thyroid surgery. When she died in August, at the age of 33, from something totally unrelated, my dear wonderful vet said to me that she had 10 years that most people would not have given her. She lived because of what I went thru to save her from that botched thyroid almost 18 years prior...... I could add my diabetic cat, my dog with 2 ACL surgeries, my cat that had a thyroidectomy but the point was well made, God knew all along what he was doing...it just took me a while to realize it. Twelve years ago I started wearing a Saint Frances of Assisi medal, no longer fighting that I was merely part of a bigger plan. On the back of it is engraved Banner December 29,1998, the date that she was literally saved by a miracle 8 years in the making. So yes, when I have a problem, I do everything I can to understand it, then treat it to the best of my ability. Even now, it is best for Zig's meals to be spaced out as best I can.....I go to bed at midnight in order to do just that. I will be eternally grateful for the help I found that helped me to understand the cause of his starvation/bad moods. His plan is working and that's what really matters, why, in the long run, only matters to a point. Peace.
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 8:25 pm: Sorry DrO...you posted while I was writing my last reply.The funny thing about the kitty with the urinary issue from dog food....was all the way back when they didn't know about what they eventually called ash. I remember once they found that, the usual treatment was 7-10 days of antibiotic and daily use of a urine acidifier. Only many years later did they come up with the taurine and even then, it was a long time before they differentiated between stone/grit being of magnesium or calcium content. As you know, most are one of the two but the other one shows up on occasion...which is why they sometimes hesitate to go with C/D Feline, or Purina UR, until the culprit is verified. Been there/done that years ago........ I think this was allll the way back when they were just discovering the feline leukemia virus and developing a test you had to send off for....another story for some other day. Thankfully, they've come a very long way since then....including a vaccine. When I get the chance, I will call the vet that knew the link between the starvation/mood and ask him if it comes from his own research or research he has read about. I had been meaning to call him anyway to thank him. The proof here is in the pudding, the less I feed him (to a point of course), the less starved he is......who'da thunk. Maybe it is just Ziggy.....but maybe not.
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| Member: zarr |
Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 8:33 pm: Patty, your are very wise seldom does life fit into the neat boxes we all want it to! That is why you were given the animals in your life that most would have not looked at beyond the obvious. My husband calls it "reverse polish logic" but I think the right word is empathic. I'm glad it is working out for Ziggy!
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| Member: ekaufman |
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| Member: erika |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 12:10 am: Thank you Cindy and Erika. Sigh............ok, let me try this one more time: Ziggy is not severely underfed. Some would have me take his Triple Crown Lite out of the picture....I won't do it. For his size, his ideal weight would be 700 pounds, 1% would be 7 pounds of hay, while on a diet, he's getting 6+. And one more try...........a horse that has IR often has the "I'm starving" going. That is how the vet knew right away, when combined with a crest, that he probably has IR. With my horse, when that kicks in, he gets in a real bad mood. Let's compromise and throw our hands up and say "no one knows why when his IR starvation kicks in (attacks his hay, pins ears back at everyone), he gets crabby." Maybe I caught it early enough that by cutting back his food to reasonable vet instructed diet levels, he still has plenty of spunk, he just doesn't seem to be starving and grumpy any more. Subdued (prancing with ears forward?)....not at all, just not so grumpy. Without a doubt, I am not the only one whose IR horse thinks he's starving....... but thru diet, I am able to alleviate that. Some are so IR they have to be dry lotted, maybe his was caught early enough that the IR symptoms are alleviated by just getting his diet adjusted? Seems to be working even though I went into it with my own doubts. I can't help it if what the vet suggested worked, I just know that it did...........for him. As for starving my horse.....you couldn't be more WRONG. Every vet, Rescue, Humane Society and Animal Control Officer in my county (I know them all well) would die laughing at the mere suggestion. The word starving describes the way Ziggy would ATTACK his hay...as if he were starving when in fact, his BS of 6-6.5 says otherwise. A diet of minus 1 pound is hardly what anyone who has seen this situation first hand would consider severely underfed. Not only does he feel less starved but he appears HAPPIER....hardly what I would call starved into submission. I hardly think my vet would put his stamp of approval on that approach so, please take your accusation elsewhere until you have been here to judge first hand. PS: I also help out Animal Control when they have a horse call in my area, often between 2-5:00 in the morning. Sometimes for a good laugh, I show up in my Mutts pajamas.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 6:14 am: Patty, What came to mind as I was reading this is how people used to break horses. I think maybe that's what's being conveyed here. You would take your young, unbroke, frisky horse to a trainer. While at the trainers he wouldn't get fed quite as well, no grain not a lot of grazing time and little hay. Young horse didn't have enough extra energy to misbehave. He goes home gets fed up again and turns into a monster This actually happened to Hank when at the trainers...he was fed well, but he caught the flu bug there and lost alot of weight, he wasn't fat at that point in his life! When I brought him home he was a little thin. Once the vet gave me the ok to start riding him, he was the BEST broke horse I had ever ridden!!! Such a good boy Hank was suppose to be hubbbys horse, he was riding him a couple times a week, and I was maintaining his training in between. After about a month of being home and "feeling better" he reached what I would call a perfect weight, not fat at all, could see shadow of ribs. He was just let to graze, no grain. Worked daily. Was 4 yrs. old and definitely not IR at this point. Once he hit this point the "horned" one appeared. Hubby rode him for the last time that month and refuses to this day to even sit in the saddle on him! Hank scares him to death now!!! I guess the moral of this story is if they are not given extra calories to expend they usually are "quieter" If I really think about this, his behavior under saddle is better when on his "starvation" diet. Is this because of lack of extra calories or because somehow his "starvation" mechanism is flipped off? IF I had to guess I would have to guess lack of calories=better behaved Hank, for the fact he still acts like every meal is his last I am not calling your findings wrong with Ziggy! I also don't think you are starving him. From an experimental point of view though 2 weeks isn't enough to draw a conclusion. Further up in your post you had stated he got out an open gate and out to pasture longer than normal and he was a "good boy" that night, which contradicts his "working theory" I always try to keep an open mind on this stuff, nothing is impossible , BUT I can link you to quite a few of my posts where I THOUGHT nothing had changed other than my "cure" at the time and it was pointed out that things change daily in our horses enviroment. Keep an open mind to what the members and Dr.O. are saying, it is also possible other things are going on with Ziggy you don't even take into consideration other than diet... weather, soft ground, hard ground, icy ground ect....even Hank won't act up when footing is bad! (he's horned, but not a fool) There are many things to take into consideration. Once again thanks for your experience, and please note I am not discounting it and find it interesting to say the least
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 10:45 am: Thank you Diane, you are very kind and considerate with your words. Back when Ziggy spent that extra time out (little sneak), I upped his hay just in case he just needed more to eat. Within 3 days, he started attacking his hay again. The vet's theory of addressing his aggressive eating as a symptom of IR, and approaching the air fern as an IR, has helped his moods a great deal. Who'da thunk that by addressing the IR, he would actually feel better? So far, he's holding steady. Somewhere out there, someone wrote a product review on a supplement formulated for horses with IR. The first thing she mentioned was that after a few weeks on the supplement, her horse stopped eating like he was starving and would actually walk away from his own leftovers.....happy. If I can remember where I read it, or what it was called, I'll list it in a future post. I gotta work today so I need to get moving....but thanks again for your post, I'll keep you updated.
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| Member: stek |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 11:00 am: Patty, thanks for clarifying about your exercise situation right now, I can certainly commiserate! I would also happily trade pastures with you, at least over the winter!I have a couple more questions: You state "Some would have me take his Triple Crown Lite out of the picture....I won't do it." Why not? Also "the PhD. I spoke with knew as soon as I said that Ziggy's moods coincided with whether or not he felt like he was starving were related to IR, negative test or not." How did he know? To me, this sounds like the only piece of hard evidence you had was discounted out of hand. While I don't have personal experience with it I am told the test for IR is spotty, but to confirm a diagnosis I would personally at least try a re-test. One thing that might be interesting would be to work this horse up to all-day turnout and then see if he still reacted as though he were starving when he came in at night, attacking his hay, as opposed to just generally 'horned'. (great term, Diane!) It would be a very interesting experiment. I think one reason many of the folks here have such a visceral reaction to what you describe is that we have all seen horses that were 'starved down' to improve their behavior. (I personally own an arab who was skin and bones when I got him, breeder told me she had to keep him that way to keep him manageable. He is quite fat and happy and as sweet as sugar now.) Please keep in mind that we are not attacking you so much as we are advocating for the horse
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 3:15 pm: Hi Shannon....I am glad to take the time to answer your questions as best I can:As to the Triple Crown Lite....it is soooooo low in carbs but does get into him any vitamins and/or minerals he may be lacking thru his diet. As to the starvation/IR link......I don't know how he knew other than thru experience...and you'll see there are others here who see it in theirs as well. What apparently is different here is that as I adjusted his diet to address the IR, the starvation synDrOme went away. As part of my experimenting before I posted my success with the vet's advice......I did increase pasture time and even on dead grass (still contains glucose), he started reverting back to the aggressive starvation. My horses are only confined to stalls a total of 3 hours per day....and that is only to keep them separate for meal times. Otherwise. they have a large barren paddock and in the morning, access to the almost barren arena. At 1:00, they go out in the big pasture, anything over 4 hours starts a rebound of the starvation synDrOme. Sadly, when he feels like he's starving (related to IR), he's ornery...and that's the only time, why, I don't know. When I had the chance this morning, I called this particular vet...to thank him because of the improvement I continue to see. He said he has a PDF file to send me on feeding the IR horse...and a power point presentation. When I get them, I will gladly share them as best I can. While I had him on the phone, I asked him how he knew this would help my horse and he simply said "thru experience." We talked about how fat kicks out cortisol which in itself, aggravates the condition. We also talked about how a horse of a body score of 6.5 feels starved until you adjust his diet downwards.....all being wrapped up in the metabolism of glucose/insulin. We also talked about why this approach has worked so well for Ziggy and the consensus is that it may simply be that I caught the IR very early. Yes he has the crest that doesn't match the rest of his body and yes, he has the aggressive appetite that according to him, is a definite flag for IR. Treat the IR thru diet and see if the aggressive appetite is any different. In my case, it was totally reversed. Now, I have to admit, and I don't mean to be flippant here, but I did tell him that I posted my success story on a forum....and somehow it turned into a "you're starving your horse into submission" tar and feathering. Honestly, we both had a pretty good laugh....he's sending me the PDF. I take no offense in questioning the method but dang, if it worked for me, why not share the story? And to accuse me of starving my horse into submission was offensive and laughable at the same time. Rescues try to give me horses all the time....as do other horse owners. I was asked to take the one that traveled 500 miles to get here because they knew the horse would be taken care of for the rest of it's life. She was 16 when she arrived....all revved up on super high energy food....calmed her down and she's going strong at the age of 22 now. In fact, I wish I had a dollar for every horse someone wanted to just give me....lol. I've been told by 4 vets over the years that I had a gift with animals, large and small, and two of those wanted to come back as pets of mine when they died.....lolol. One of those was a pretty hardened long time horse vet too....you could have knocked me over with a feather....literally. I guess to be a good sport, maybe I should apologize that the theory of IR causing the aggressive appetite/foul mood and that by treating the IR, we alleviated the latter? What the heck, maybe it did work because I caught it so early.....well ahead of obesity, well head of laminitis, well ahead of any permanent damage. Who knows? PS: I had no idea I was such a bad speeler until spell checkers were invented.
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| New Member: etiology |
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| Member: leslie1 |
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 8:51 pm: Forgive me Dr.O, but I beg to differ in referring to this: "You have discovered an unsubstantiated mechanism that justifies severe feed-restriction to subdue your horse. But is that the most humane solution for the horse? Horses have evolved to browse low quality forage almost constantly, and also to move. There is quite a body of research that documents various effects on horses of not eating and not moving.So please think about what would be best for Ziggy. I have met many subdued hungry horses, but never one that was happy for not being fed." I hardly would consider a reasonable diet for a horse with a BS of 6-6.5 that should weigh 700 pounds severe under feeding to subdue him. I do apologize if putting him on a diet made his IR starvation resolve, which hand in hand took the grumpiness with it. For whatever reason, they always came and went together. His diet was done under the care of 3 veterinarians, 2 who know this case, this horse, intimately. What more can I say, I resented the implication, not the reasonable questions most of you had. Jeeze Louise, if that accusation was not tar and feathering, I don't know what is. Not in a million years would I enter anyone's thread and make a statement like that....ever. If there is one, please point it out and I will apologize to the person who started the thread. For those who are genuinely interested, I will post updates, we are two weeks and counting, slowly, safely losing the extra pounds and no sign of aggressive "I'm starving" appetite (or grumpiness).
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| Member: ekaufman |
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 9:40 pm: Hi elk.I very much appreciate your post. I tried the recommendation of 1.5% of fiber in the diet and he blew up like a balloon. Right now, to get weight off of him, he is getting just under 1% of his fiber in hay, the rest is in his 4 hours on pasture....plus the 2 pounds of Lite to cover his vit./min. The rest of the time he is out but not on the pasture, except for those 4 hours....until he's at the right weight for his size. For whatever reason, the feelings of starvation common with IR brings with it, in this horse, a real bad mood. Why the two are glued together can be debated til the cows come home but for this horse, they are. The more I fed him, the hungrier he got (a poss. IR flag in itself). As I put him on the diet, both issues resolved. To test the theory, I increased his pasture time again and within two days, the starvation/bad mood returned. I could always tell what mood he was in just by how he approached his hay.....and is the very statement that clued this vet into what was going on and what was worth a try. I tried it, retried it and it worked. Going back to the recommendation of fiber intake, that is a guideline that often has to be adjusted for ponies, easy keepers, certain breeds and certain medical conditions. With the guidance I have, he is slowly losing the extra pounds, doesn't attack his food, and is without a doubt happier. When the cows wander home, I'll be sure to drill them on the chemical equation to explain why. Thanks again for your reply, I gotta go feed.....again.
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 28, 2009 - 10:21 am: DrO.....I have enjoyed the other comments and yes, the challenges to the theory.....all of them. The only post that I pointed out as being offended by was the post I referred to above about starving my horse into submission....I am not and will not. She and I have resolved that issue and I'm ready to move on. DrO.....I know that Ziggy is not the only horse that has the "I'm starving" thing going on as one of his symptoms of IR. Maybe they all don't but it appears that there are many that do. God help me, for whatever reason, whenever the switch turns on and he comes in "starving," he's ornery. He can come in loaded with energy and be fine but if he comes in and shouts "I'm starving," he's in a foul mood, pinning his ears back, even chasing the chickens away from his hay. The more you feed him, the more starved he got. For what ever reason, the less I feed him (within reason of course), the less he feels starved...and the better he acts. This is exactly what the vet thought would happen, I can only apologize that with this horse, it did. I would gladly say that he must be the exception to the rule but he told me about two draft horses he knew that were exactly the same way. An "I'm starving no matter how much you feed me" he sees often associated with IR. When I got rid of that, I also got rid of his awful mood swings.....sorry.
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 9:42 pm: I meant to post this earlier but was distracted by a near catastrophy that I'll explain later:I sent the vet that's helping me with Ziggy an email to ask him to go into a little more detail about how he thinks insulin/glucose/IR/mood swings all tie in together. The fluctuations played into it but I honestly don't remember if he said exactly how. I know he's very busy so I try not to tie him up very long when we talk. Whatever he says, I'll bring here so I'm sure not to misquote him and cause any more confusion than I already have. I do remember our conversations being based on helping other people with problems just like mine. I wanted to post this Thursday, but Thursday was not a good day here....and it was all my fault: I got up around 1:00 in the morning looking for Motrin for a headache. When it's not in the cabinet, it's in hubby's cooler that he takes to work (stressful research and development job). The cooler was sitting on the floor by the primary computer and in my sleepy headachy stupor, I opened it and only found a prescription bottle of Naproxen Sodium 500 mgs. Remembering that he had bought a new cooler, I walked over to the new one and found the Motrin, forgetting all about closing the first cooler. Around 7:00 in the morning, I was taking my time getting up, because I was off that day but, and I could hear one of the dogs chewing up....what I thought was another cat toy. Twenty minutes later, I walked over to the computer to check the forecast and when I moved the chair, there was an empty bottle of Naproxen Sodium with the lid chewed off and only one caplet left on the floor. In total shock and panic, I called my vet but the docs weren't in yet so, they gave me the number for poison control. After pressing this and pressing that, I finally get someone and they told me to give both dogs hyDrOgen peroxide with milk...neither of which I had. By now, the docs are almost to the clinic so, out the door I went, in a flash, tossing two dogs into the car who had no idea what all the fuss was about. After a 15 minute drive, I flew into the clinic and tossed them both dogs, saying to start with the Sheltie, then do the Malinois. And there I stood, in my Mutts pajamas, barn coat and untied sneakers for all the county to see. No make-up, didn't even take the time to brush my hair. To make a long story short, what literally saved them was that they had just eaten within an hour of "the event" and since the vets were ready and waiting as I ran in the door, it appears that we got it all up. You couldn't find the chewed up pills because of their color but the worst problem we had was with dehydration in the Sheltie from all of the vomiting that carried into the afternoon. When I took her back to treat that, I asked to start the blood work ahead of time. There was one slight elevation for kidney function but it was tied to the dehydration and back to normal the next day. With instructions to watch her closely...and meds for both dogs just in case, they were both home that night. Given that the Sheltie was having the harder time, she went back to spend the day on IV fluids on Friday.....but all the blood work and tummy sounds were back to normal. At this point, she seems to be fine, barking at customers, giving Ziggy the where for at the fence and ate close to a normal meal tonight. Her doctor thinks she will be just fine, we must have gotten in all out before any damage was done...but she will get one more round of blood work on Wednesday just to be sure. When I send this story into my local paper, the irony here is that no one is more careful, more focussed on the safety of animals than me. I am always the one telling the guys not to leave any meds on the counter where a cat could knock it on the floor.....and never leave anything on the floor that is just waiting for an accident to happen. I have done this until their eyes glazed over....then look what happened over hiding the Motrin. If it could happen to me, it could happen to anybody. All in all, thank God they had full tummies because when I sat down and figured how much she swallowed-----> 500mgs x 7 or 8 caplets. The food bought me the time I needed to get to the clinic so they could induce vomiting and empty their stomachs (all the way back to last year). Had the scenario unfolded in any other way, the outcome would certainly have been fatal. She's had no signs of vomiting since Thursday, no unusual gut sounds and two good blood tests. What a scary event and the gist of my letter to the editor is going to be that in accidental poisonings, time is criticle...and it only takes a few minutes to happen. I'm actually embarrassed to tell the story but I want to drive home what gets you the best chances to pull them thru....DrOp what you are doing and get help, even if you have to do it in your pajamas, time is of the essence. |
| Member: mrose |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2009 - 12:04 pm: Good afternoon and thank you Sara. When I do my letter to the editor, one of the lessons I learned was that no matter how hard it is to give your dog a pill, that in no way means that they won't eat pills they shouldn't have. We actually talked about all the tricks to get meds into them...only to have them spit it right back out...yet they will eat a fatal dose of something they should never have. Over the years, I've actually heard people say they don't worry about that kind of thing because their dogs are so hard to medicate........little do they know. And that's one of the reasons for sharing my embarrassing story. I write political letters, simple comment letters and a yearly letter about illegal fireworks with pets/livestock. Now I guess it's time for an embarrassing lesson learned letter, take heed and learn from my mistake.
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| Member: erika |
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| Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2009 - 3:40 pm: I for one am glad you shared. Like I said, I never would have dreamed a dog (or cat) would willingly eat an untasty pill! The only way I can easily get a pill down one of our dogs, is to make him think the other dog wants it!
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| Member: pattyb |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 8:50 pm: OK...so much to say, I hope I don't short circuit the spell checker tonight:First and foremost, my dog just came home from her last round of blood work and everything is perfectly normal. She's eating well, feisty and lab work all looked good.....however: I didn't know until tonight that at some point she had an elevated liver reading but I didn't know it because it was still within the range of normal. Tonight though, it was back down to low normal, which is normal for her. Sigh....that was awfully close. I did ask if the liver reading would come back to haunt us in later years and the vet said no, she's good to go with no concerns. Time was literally of the essence and the only reason we pulled this off. For the sake of my Letter, I asked about common souces of accidental poisonings and she said: 1. Non-steroidals like Tylenol, Motrin, Aleve and any other over the counter meds. 2. Common people prescriptions 3. Common pet prescriptions, particularly Rimadyl 4 Rat poison 5. House plants 6. Antifreeze 7. Household cleaners. 8. Grapes, raisins, chocolate 9. Xylitol in sugarless gum. The protocols to treat can vary depending on what was ingested, call vet or poison control immediately.... a road I hope to certainly never have to go down again. Part two of my post has to do with IR: I received an email reply to my question about IR affecting moods in some horses and the gist was, as in my case, what causes the ravenous appetite. The two are deeply entwined, always coming and going together. Rather than decipher his reply, here is what he said that pertained to the question: Hi Patty, I'm not sure why we see the ravenous appetite, with high insulin levels it is the signal to store fat, which is caused by high blood glucose levels. My guess is that the horse becomes accustomed to a high blood sugar level and when it DrOps it is felt more strongly, or the horse becomes a sugar addict when it is obese and it is tied in to serotonin or leptin levels, it seems that obese people do the same thing as they eat constantly, and not to get full, but for some other reason. The problem is that everyone's perception of a problem is different with lack of scientific evidence, and just because you didn't see a certain situation with your horse, doesn't mean it is not true, or could be. ----------------------------------------------- As I've tweaked and twittered how I handle this horse, he has done well as long as I keep his diet at a level that does not trigger the ravenous appetite. As the vet found with some other horses, once the ravenous appetite appears, he's awful. And here's new lesson I learned just this week.-------> He's had a couple of nights that he was protective about his food and I was puzzled as to why. It wasn't the same aggressive type of starving, just a different attitude that I didn't care for. After 3 nights in a row, I had a lightbulb go on over my head that told me to look at the ingredients on the bucket of Sand Clear.....and there it was, apple and molasses flavoring. No wonder it reminded me of how he would act if you tossed a sugar cube or two into his bin while he was eating. Hmmmm, maybe I need a substitution for next month? So, that was the gist and basically, no one knows for sure why some IR horses have the mood swings like I have seen with my horse. Is it the rise in insulin directly or indirectly when it affects the glucose levels? Why are most horses indifferent to it yet some, like mine, have issues directly entwined? Perhaps like my cat in the dog food, they just don't know why yet but give the researchers another 5-10 years and maybe they'll have it? It will be interesting to see just how much of this remains a mystery in years to come. DrO, as I went into the issues with this horse, I did not mean to create a conflict on your forum. When I pegged the moods to coincide with the ravenous "I'm starving" appetite, the vet here thought right away that this was either directly or indirectly an IR issue.....and he'd seen it before. The more I experimented with that theory, the more everything fell into place. If it were simply an issue of more calories than he needed, he would not have had the ravenous appetite that always came and went with the mood issues. My horse continues (with the exception of the Sand Clear..lol) to do well as long as I keep the ravenous appetite at bay. As much as I have enjoyed the conversations, if this thread has become a nuisance or source of confusion/frustration, please go ahead and just delete it. Causing issues on your forum was not my intent and if I have done so, I am sorry. My story just happened to unfold the way it did.....after months of frustration. |
| Member: hollyw |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 9:19 pm: Good night, PattyB!!!!Issues?? Conflict?? Nuisance??? I haven't had to deal with IR in any of my horses, (yet) and your posts have opened up lots of good conversation! Have you visited the "Controversial Issues" department, lately?
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 11:07 pm: Thanks Angie.....it has been a learning experience all the way around. Holly.....lol....I help the moderators on another website and there have been some real beauts. As nice as that website is, we've had imposters, home wreckers, spammers, stalkers (literally) and just plain troublemakers. All eventually hang themselves if you just give them enough rope...then wait patiently...lol. I haven't visited the controversial issues, I deal with those enough in real life. Right now, my "pet" project is helping our local sheriff put something before the Board of Supervisors concerning the rampant use of illegal fireworks around livestock/pets/miles of woodlands. It's a real mess, been working on it with Animal Control, the Humane Society and my DJ friend now for years, time to hit them in the pocketbook. I did notice the thread on handgun euthanasia....I can't go there, even the title scares me away.
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2009 - 9:39 am: Thanks DrO..you made my day.
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| Member: frances |
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2009 - 7:24 am: So Patty you have me watching Hank and friends.(all appear IR) They have gone from free choice hay (big bale) to 1 square bale a day between the 3 of them. About 10lbs each. (unless it's bitterly cold) They have been off the big bale for a couple weeks and have had time to adjust down IMO. They still have their same "personalities" so to speak, but are much more "peppier" I could call it moody if I stretched it a bit Definitely have to go in with them dripping "alpha mare attitude" at feed time. Question is did I take away the excessive insulin input by just removing the hay? I think maybe so just from the physical looks of them...but boy they are much crankier or maybe enthusiastic is the word So in trying to understand this theory (and I really am cuz' I find it very interesting) What do you believe Ziggy's trigger is, the grass, OR the hay, OR just too much food in general? Have you ever tried free choice hay to see if his mood improved? I know these easy keepers can't have this often, but just wondered if you had tried it in your experiment? Thanks |
| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2009 - 10:59 am: Good morning Diane .....and thanks for the question. I think I have to say right off the bat that Ziggy is not the norm but, not unheard of either. With him, I have to adjust down anything that throws carbs at him, grass, dead grass and hay. The Triple Crown Lite that I feed him is grain free but I still only give him what he needs to cover his vitamin/mineral needs. I do this because he's not getting a lot of nutrients from the low-medium quality hay and dead winter grass. To answer your question as best I can, carbs is the enemy and when he gets to much, it triggers the ravenous appetite bringing with that, a really foul mood....as if he's saying "I'm mad because you're starving me." Funny thing is though, the more hay or grass he gets, the more he feels like he's starving. By adjusting down, I found a happy medium----> 6 pounds course hay divided by 3 meals, 6 ounces of TC Lite divided the same way, plenty of turn out time in dry lot or practically nonexistent arena. From 1-5:00, they go out in the full pasture for 4 hours of dead winter grass grazing. For treats, I keep a handful of TC Lite in my pocket...no carrots, apples, sugar cubes....except for their Christmas apples that is. Right now, as I try to get weight off of him (coming off slowly), he is a bit hungry but it's different from the IR "starving get out of my way" behavior. Free choice hay is a no go for him, tried it and he blew up....and the older mare has to have her hay hosed down or she starts thinking about an impaction colic. For me, that is two reasons why I envy those who can do free choice hay. Being that Ziggy is half Arab (Arab/Paint), he's one of those hardy breeds that could easily be called an air fern. Throw into that the IR and you really have a challenge. Where you can get away with all day winter grazing, I cannot. As soon as I see the IR ravenous appetite, that is my cue to cut back. Since I started using that as my guideline, his moods have done much better. He's still a little spitfire, just not nearly as grouchy. For anyone else reading this, I can't emphasize enough that Ziggy does not follow the normal pattern for IR behavior. According to most, there is no noticeable mood change....but with that said, there are those like Ziggy, who is sensitive to just about everything (just like a gifted child), when the IR synDrOme kicks into overdrive, he becomes a bear before, during and after his scheduled feeding times. When I keep the IR starvation at bay, he's much more pleasant to be around. I hope that answers your questions. IR appears to be one of those conditions that is very specific to the individual...what works for one may need tweaking to work for the others. This is definitely a condition that needs veterinary guidance and a whole lot of in depth observation on the owners part. |
| Member: frances |
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| Member: rorien |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2009 - 9:31 pm: Hi Nicole...and thanks for your question. Ziggy has continued to be fairly predictable but there were two evenings that I just couldn't figure out what had him all wound up. He had me stumped until I realized it went hand in hand with the two evenings my husband fed for me. Ziggy practically hates him. Eddy does not give him space, actually antagonizes him sometimes to the point that I have to send both of them to their rooms. He has been very heavy handed with him and it backfired, leaving me with issues to undo. In all my years of having Arab crosses, I can honestly say that they have a very keen sense of fairness, especially when it comes to discipline. They understand discipline but they also recognize an over reaction. Eddy is all about over reacting and could never have an Arab for himself. With that said, Ziggy has otherwise been doing very well, very consistant....even thru a skunk in the tackroom again and a rooster perching on his back...lolol. If I could just fix the problem between the two "male egos," I'd have it made. Thanks for asking, I hope his story has been helpful to those reading it.
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 1:55 pm: Wow, has it been that long since my last update?I have interesting fodder to add today: As we have come thru the end of winter and into spring, Ziggy has continued to be a case study for me.....and I am happy to report that he continues to do well. Once I realized that my hay weighing scale was so far off his diet wasn't a diet at all, I had much better luck using a digital version of a similar scale. As his diet became a real diet, the weight started coming off.....and his attitude had glimmers of improvement. In the beginning, he was IR hungry and "where's the rest of my food" hungry. After a few days of adjusting downwards, he stopped complaining and started improving all around. Even though turnout went from limited dead grass in the big pasture to the overgrazed arena as the grass started to green up and grow, I still had to cut back a bit more on the hay to allow for the limited green grass intake. And in there, lies the key to his mood swings. As I got the weight off of him, the ravenous appetite all but disappeared...and with it went his foul mood. He's still his antagonistic self, always looking to egg on a problem, but he does it with an entirely different expression on his face, ears forward, not back and combative. As I look back over his issues, I've tested, tested and retested the connection with grass intake vs. weight vs. ravenous appetite vs. IR vs. attitude. Each and every time, on a day to day basis, if he got to much grass, the ravenous appetite would be there for evening feedings, and so would the foul combative mood. Some days I would walk away swearing my neighbor was feeding him ice cream over the fence....lol. I could always tell when my son's dad took him for ice cream while they were out by the way he pinged off the walls and couldn't sit still if he wanted to when they got home. So, where that has brought us to now is, Ziggy is doing great on limited grazing in the arena. Right now, he's at a good weight. I would like to take 10 more pounds off of him but I think I will get that off as the heat dries up the arena. By adjusting his hay downward, he's able to spend the day in the arena without gaining any weight.....but there is a caveat....I can always tell that I need to make another adjustment whenever the ravenous appetite shows up. I didn't see it much at all as he was losing weight but now that spring has arrived, it's been a little trickier.....especially right after it has rained, thus making the grass that much richer. In the end so far, I am so much happier with him. He seems to feel better, acts better and is appearing to be happier with himself. I can honestly say, I have not seen that ugly mood that used to make me crazy in at least 2 months now. But then, we can look back and wonder why did this all work for him but not for others? My guess with Ziggy is that I caught his IR very early in the process. If I can keep the weight off, I can keep the ravenous appetite at bay, right along with the foul moods. He's very expressive, very gifted......did that maybe make him easier to read? Was I tuned into him well enough to pick up on the mood connection? Could be. As with any IR horse, carbs are the enemy, especially excess carbs. For whatever reason, excess carbs scramble his brain first and foremost, even when all else is normal. I watch everything with him, mood, appetite, check feet temps daily, anything that gives me big picture focus. Balance the hay, grass, Triple Crown Lite, supplements and exercise to all work together and so far, he's a much better horse for it......he's happy and that makes me happy. Hopefully, we can stay on this road right on thru the spring and summer, adjusting where needed seems to be the key. For anyone following this thread, it was a long road to hoe but thru testing and retesting, we finally got to a better place than where we started out at. Is Ziggy an unusual case? From all the PhD's I talked with, yes, but not at all unheard of....one knew exactly what it was as soon as I mentioned the connection between the ravenous appetite and the foul mood, as in if I had one, I always had both. Had I not had that connection, I may have never figured it out. By catching it early, things should go fairly smoothly as long as I keep the contributing factors all in balance with each other. Thanks for reading, thanks for visiting, please feel free to leave any questions you may have.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 9:41 pm: Glad things are going well with Ziggy Patty. Sounds like quite a routine you have down, almost wore me out reading it. I thought Hank was high maintenance!
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| Member: dove2 |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 4:22 pm: Thank you Dove2 for your question, I hope I can be of some help to you. In my 26 years of horse ownership and many years working at a stables before that, I can't find the words to describe how difficult this was to figure out. In all that time, I had never seen this situation except when people overfed with sweet feed. First, I have to ask if your mare was ever diagnosed or considered to be insulin resistant? It was Ziggy's mood swings and cresty neck that gave me a glimmer of what was causing all of it. In the beginning, the first thing I noticed was that Ziggy was becoming awfully ornery to groom, yet I could find no injuries to explain it. Then I noticed that he had these mood swings from fine to awful with little notice or explanation. It was honestly in addressing his mood swings that I discovered the IR and how it was playing into his situation. What I found after months of working the problem is that green grass is the #1 enemy. So is dead winter grass so he was limited to how much he could have without it making him hyper or gaining weight.....the two seemed to come hand in hand. Many horses will gain weight off of green grass but with him, it absolutely zings him off the walls whenever he gets enough to cause him to gain weight. Honestly, I've never seen anything like it....from just grass. What I have to do now is juggle his hay ration down to allow for grazing time. If at any time he starts to get hyper or crabby, that is my cue to adjust either the hay or grass. That becomes even trickier when he doesn't need the energy to stay warm and/or when it rains and really makes the grass lush. The drier the grass and the less he weighs, the easier he is to manage. Two times a week, I throw a weight tape on him and check the temps of his feet daily, particularly looking for any fluctuations in temps front feet vs. back. Add that to his attitude, how aggressive he is when he eats his hay and just his general frame of mind gives me the big picture and tells me if I need to adjust anything further. For whatever reason, Ziggy reacts to grass like a young child after eating ice cream. It has to have something to do with the sugar/starch/carbohydrates because he, just like a kid, starts pinging off the walls....hyper, spooky and ornery. I literally could tell when my son had ice cream right before he came home just by how hyped up he was. Ziggy does the same thing with grass more than anything else in his diet. In summary, I watch for attitude while eating, what his weight is doing, how are his feet doing, what is the weather going to do and does he seem to have his ears up and antagonizing trouble or ears back and not very pleasant to be around. Now that I have a handle on how it all plays together, his ears are up and happy most of the time. My first suggestion would be to talk to your vet and maybe have him/her take a look/see just in case it's something else. Maybe it is the grass being too loaded with energy. Your vet could give you a better idea after you go over your feeding/turnout/exersize routine to see if that is related to your mare's issues. Could also be hormonal but, my hunch is it may well be the grass vs. weight issue that your vet could look at and advise you better. Good lunch, post an update if you get the chance and just maybe it is the energy in the grass that is the route of your problem....it certainly was here, I am not working with the same horse I had a year or even 6 months ago.
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| Member: dove2 |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 12:43 am: Funny you would ask as I was thinking of coming back to better clarify that while I was in the shower.For the sole purpose of weight control, I divided their areas into four separate units. They have the dry paddock and open stalls for evening and night time. When the grass is green, they are allowed out to the arena from 11-5:00. The arena is lightly covered in grass but they are able to keep it very short by grazing off and on during their turn out time. If it rains several days in a row and makes the grass a candy shop, I delay turning them out and/or cut their hay back a little to compensate for the additional calories. My third area is the big pasture. I only use that area from mid November to mid March. Since dead grass is also an issue, I feed them less hay as a trade off for more dead grass. If that area dies down, I do have one more field that is only used in the winter time....it's a great place to put them when there's a foot or two of snow on the ground. No matter what I do, the tricky part is to provide maximum turn out time in exchange for more hay. The more they can be out, the better it is for alllll of us. Some people have overweight horses that can't have any grass at all so monitored grass intake is just one more thing I have to watch on a daily basis. Each horse is different but the grass issue became more obvious as the weight started coming off. As we have gotten closer to our goal (10 more pounds to go), Ziggy is acting more an more like his old self....totally opposite of the way he was a year ago. If you're in the process of getting the weight off, your mare may act a little nutty as she's looking for more food. It's quite possible that as you do the same with your mare, you might see similar results. By the grace of God, I found the root cause of all his problems and we are both the happier for it. For me, I just have to monitor his attitude and compare it to grass intake......cut the hay or grass down and in a day or two, he's back to his normal self. I hope that answers your question......I've never weighed it so winging it was my only way to give you a logical answer. Good luck, let me know how it goes...... |
| Member: dove2 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 8:03 am: Hi Dove can't help you out with the grass theory, but when reading your last post I have to wonder if you aren't dealing with "spring mare hormones"Chasteberries and regumate help control hormones, not sugar I believe. I had a mare boarded here at one time that was a hormonal mess come spring, she would act eratic to say the least Regumate put her right back to the sweet horse she was...we did try chasteberry... seemed to help a very little bit. Regumate was her "cure" tho I do know it is expensive and a pain in the A$$. |
| Member: dove2 |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 12:16 pm: Good morning and thanks again for visiting. I agree with Diane on the possible hormonal connection and it's well worth discussing with your vet. This issue with Ziggy was year round but worse as it related to green grass in the spring and fall. It's also possible that it's a conglomeration (had to look that one up in the dictionary) of all of the above and I say that because you mention the cresty neck yet it may really blow when you add the seasonal mare issues to the pot. When it came to the heigth of the grass.....I tried that with my Cushing's horse on the 3-4 inch grass and it didn't work. She blew up weight wise so back to the arena they went. Come to think of it, that is where it all started with Ziggy and he put on the weight faster than the Cushing's horse did. And once he put it on, it was h#!! getting it back off, especially when he was on the "not a diet" diet of incorrect hay weight. Funny, I was just commenting last night that I don't have the same horse I had a year ago and although he didn't have my full attention until fall, last spring is really when this all started. As I focused on my 33 year old Cushing;s mare, I was totally missing what was going on with the Zigman. For what it's worth, Ziggy is also on Quiessence. Some people swear by it, I threw it into the mix to see what it did. As I have his weight just about where I want it, keeping in mind the grass is his biggest issue, I'm going to start cutting back on the Q. I doubt I'll ever take it out of the equation because I do live in an area where the calcium and magnesium are not balanced by nature, the question will be finding the best maint. level for him. No matter what you decide to do, it's worth discussing with your vet. I learned the hard way with a different horse that I didn't ask enough questions so now, I ask them wanting an honest answer, not an answer he might think I want to hear. Before I head for town.......I remember the PhD that helps me with Ziggy saying that some horses act like an addict when it comes to sugar. They'll do a complete personality change to get to it and do so aggresively...like their life depends on it. The million dollar question there is why? I've had horses you couldn't feed sweet feed for that very reason. For whatever reason, for Ziggy, the same thing happens if his weight/grass intake gets out of kilter. He can have a maintenance amount and does fine until it's too much and starts causing him to gain weight. Hay can do it too but not nearly as quickly as rich green grass. The gazillion dollar question may again be in the why but for now, at least I know that is what sets him off. By controlling his diet, he's a much better and calmer horse (pony) and really seems to like himself more as well....and we are alll benefitting from it here on the farm.
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| Member: scooter |
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: dove2 |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 2:43 pm: Greetings and good day to all. I brought this back up to add an interesting observation now that we are into full blown spring/summer grass season: After months of measuring every hay feeding and restricting grazing turnout.....Ziggy is now down to his optimum weight of 700 lbs. He looks good, no crest, ribs easily felt but not seen unless he turns away from you. It's hard to believe (and my farrier agreed) that he was once 70 pounds overweight. He's always looked good but apparently needs to carry more of an Arab weight than his Quarter horse half. Anyway, what I noticed recently is that with the excess weight off of him, he is able to have a more normal diet without gaining weight. The Equine Nutritionist said that might happen, I just didn't know until we reached the proper weight for his size that it would happen then. In fact, I actually increased his night time grooming hay to stop the weight loss. And that is only half the story: We have had a LOT of rain, nearly every darn day it either rains buckets or we get a good soaking from a thunder storm. All the recent rains have really greened up the grass, including in the summer turn out area----> the arena. I did recently decrease turn out time by an hour with the grass so green but the important point to notice was that he's still maintaining his proper weight with the controlled grazing.....but then there's this-----> When Ziggy is out grazing and it rains, he's ok the evening of the first day but by evening of the second or third day of green grass, he is pinging off the walls. He comes in alright but when I go back out at 9:30 to feed and brush for the night, he at times attacks his haynet and is very tense, swishing his tail over stupid things that don't usually bother him......hense the title of the thread. With Ziggy weighing the proper weight, I'm not seeing the mood swings unless he gets into the grass AFTER it has rained. He comes in ok but is super tense and pingy by the time I go back out for the night feeding/brushing. I'm truly fascinated that grass pings him like ice cream to a young child. Sweet feed yes, grass after it rains...no. I do have to say though that this happens much less now than it did when he was heavier. For anyone who subscribes to The Horse, the online version has quite a bit of update material on IR horses and not only dietary supplemental recommendations but how they are finding a link with maternal care while they are still a developing fetus. I found the article(s) to be very informative, they might be worth checking out being it's quite a bit of research based updating. So, right now, Ziggy is still doing great but I do have to control the grazing time after it rains to keep him calm and happy. Now, if I could just have as much good luck figuring out how to keep sneaky chickens from multiplying.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 3:30 pm: Hi Patty glad Ziggy is doing relatively well I do think what you are finding out is pretty much how all IR horses are. After a rain and add some sunny days the grass gets more lush and probably induces an insulin spike. Getting their weight down to normal helps them handle this better. I have found with Hank, the more exercise he gets the less "moody" he is....that also helps with the insulin spikes. Try adding some exercise the day after it rains and see if it makes a difference in his mood swing. I saw that article on "The Horse" very interesting to say the least. Hanks mother has been a fat old pig forever, she lives on air, never has had "grain" even when PG just a pasture pony. She was ridden quite regularly up until she retired, maybe that's why she really had no IR "symptoms" but definitely looked the part. |
