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Discussion on Agression and training
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New Member:
esisson5
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Posted on Friday, Dec 26, 2008 - 6:58 am:
We have several horses all under the age of 5 who are being trained by owners who are not professionals. They spend hours with a trainer riding around in circles and doing natural horsemanship exercises on the ground. However these horses are becoming a menace to people in the barn who must walk past their horses to get to riding rings or who are using rings adjacent to their turnout. They charge people who are leading and riding horses.
we can no longer bring students to the rings without a lunge whip in hand. What do they need to do to fill in the gap in their training?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Dec 26, 2008 - 7:22 am:
Hi Elaine, do I understand right...They are turned out in pasture when they do this?
The first thing that pops in my mind is boredom, a young horse that goes in circles and has ground training for hours can become sour and cranky. Really need more info of their feed, what the owners are actually doing in their "ground training" turn out situation. ...small or big.
The second thing that pops in my mind if all things are in order (which I really doubt!) is they need to be taught to respect people. If the owners are doing "natural horsemanship" and don't have a very good idea of the "concept" they can do more damage than good.
When I worked at a boarding barn we had some horses that would charge people walking by their stalls...they did have bars, but they would bite the bars, kick, charge when someone walked by...it was purely boredom and "protecting" their space. All the horses that did this were actually very sweet and easy to handle. Just not being left to act like horses
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Friday, Dec 26, 2008 - 11:37 am:
Very interesting thread. There was a time when I resembled that situation.
I know this sounds silly but I have to mention what I did when I had a similar problem with Ziggy. Some horses, and Ziggy is one of them, react corporal punishment as a threat, making the situation at times worse. What worked with him...now don't laugh ok....party favor blowers with the paper curl that unwinds when you blow into it. It startles him without enraging his ego...and cured him of nipping over the door when he wasn't busy eating.
I also had a problem there for awhile with him chasing hubby away when he was eating his hay outside. Approaching him aggressively when he did so stopped him but it still infuriated him. Once again, the blower worked without ticking him off and he stopped doing it.
I have to ask though....does this problem zero in on one particular person (or horse) or is it everyone? Ziggy has issues with my hubby but does fine with the farrier. I honestly think Ziggy is another Arab that bonds with one person (me) and all others put him on guard. My farrier brings treats........... Funny thing is though, hubby and Zig tolerate each other well when I'm not there. As soon as I enter the situation, Ziggy stands there with this "help, rescue me" look on his face.
I find this thread to be very interesting and am hoping you get many replies Elaine.
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New Member:
esisson5
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 - 6:24 am:
Ideas have been interesting, esp the ones about boredom. Theses horses do nothing interesting at all. We are going to suggest training activities throughout the winter that are not going around in circles, but that may challenge the horses to behave.
They charge and go after anyone with a horse in tow, the one charges any person and the others just won't go away when asked and have no respect for personal space. We give them no attention at all but I am concerned that someone is going to get their head knocked or a foot stepped on or trampled.
The owners of several of these horses are bullies themselves and threathen the barn owner whenever he asks for anything to be done, which is why I am looking to move.
However, the horses at the barn who have professional training never charge people or go after haltered horses and their leaders. They leave you alone when you ask them to go away and stay out of your personal space. I'm just wondering what professional trainers do to teach horses these important lessons?
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 - 9:06 am:
I am far from an expert. And have limited exposure to this type of training. But, it sounds to me like the horses are protecting their lead. They are not recognizing others at the barn as part of the herd.
Are they turned out with others? Do they behave for the barn owner and helpers?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 - 10:24 am:
It could just be the horses personality...it sounds like the ones that don't charge are just friendly. That said they still should move away when asked.
"Natural horsemanship" if taught right would help with this. I would suspect that the "professional" trainers have taught the horse this.
My horses are trained with NH and all I have to do is look at them and make myself "big" to get them to move away. (sometimes I have to use a "gruff" voice")when they are excited.
Maybe you could ask the owners of these horses what the "cue" is to make them get out of your space. Some "NH" teachings have different cues and obscure "rules"
I love NH, but I have also seen it go bad when continuously drilled into the horse, the secret to any horsemanship whether it be "natural" or not is to reward the right ans. and move on. Drilling can make a horse sour, cranky, and much less responsive.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 - 11:04 am:
Most natural horsemanship trainers teach the horses to respect the human's personal space. This seems strange to me. Also, the Parelli system emphasizes doing lots of different things to keep the horses from getting bored. I think NH principles can be misunderstood and misapplied, just like Diane says.
Good luck with this situation - I would be worried also about someone getting hurt.
Lilo
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 - 2:36 pm:
There's a big difference between doing natural horsemanship type exercises, and truly doing natural horsemanship (of any "variety").
Done correctly, natural horsemanship shows a horse how to be content with its environment, and what comes and goes within it. The horse learns where it is in the herd, which should be that humans are alpha (note, this does not = "mean"), and if horse respects humans as alpha, would not challenge their space. they may however, challenge other horses, but should never do this when that horse is being handled by a human.
I've professionally trained many, many, many horses using natural horsemanship (not parelli). The only horses that i've had that ever charged another, charged long before we started, and with a few weeks worth of work, we were able to fix it. It's not boredom, its lack of correct training, that is most likely affecting these horses. What I have actually seen is that done correctly, natural horsemanship shows a horse how to become more relaxed in its environment, which helps to decrease boredom problems. I have even seen some horses decrease or even eliminate the need for some boredom related problems, included weaving and cribbing.
As far as their being a cue, with what I do, there is none. If you are "there", then horse is not, unless you invite horse to be. With horses early on in the "training", it may definately be necessary to be more "vigorous" to move the horse out of your personal space, but unless these horses were difficult personalities to begin with, if they have become difficult, then something has gone wrong in the understanding of the training.
The training of my horses happens everytime I am around them, from how I feed, to how I halter, even how I clean a paddock around them and walk past them in a paddock. By doing it this way, while more time intensive for me, it shortens the amount of training time getting thru the basics.
Good luck with these horses, and your potential move.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 27, 2008 - 5:19 pm:
I have a horse who can get really pushy, and she can act mean also if you don't know her. It's an insecurity thing with her. She needs a no nonsense NO, followed by gentle grooming and then a training session, which can be very brief, like walk 3 steps, stand, back, walk, etc. Then she gets some more loving, and off she goes.
I have another horse who quit wanting to leave the barn going out the door leading to the round pen because it meant work, and it had not been a positive experience for him. Going out another door, just going for a walk, and training that way helped.
There are so many things to consider, and learning to read what each horse is reacting to takes someone knowledgeable; and takes time to figure out.
I think these horses need a break from training, time to just be horses, with limited training, only positive time with humans. Hopefully they have access to pasture with room to run.
They sound burnt on the "circles" and perhaps you can ask these people (appear very interested!) what their goals are? With your questions, perhaps you can get to point out that really there is only so much a horse needs to know from the ground(and they do need to know this!)...go, stop, back, right, left, etc., unless they are training for the circus! Yes, they can fine tune what they are doing, asking for lightness, or more collection if they are ground driving (which it don't sound like they are doing)but if the horses are not calm and happy, something is not right!
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New Member:
esisson5
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Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 9:16 am:
For those of you following this, I went out into the ring to do a few lead line lessons - the weather was warm enough to work with younger children along with some a couple of other people riding. Guests and all into the ring past horses running and kicking and after we entered charging the fence. We just worked on the inside of the ring and ignored them. Kids playing and jumping on the mounting block. After about 45 minutes someone noticed that all of the wildness had gone away and that the horses were calm and quiet. One of the moms said, "I guess they are all thinking thank God someone's in charge." We left after another 45 minutes, no horses following or bothering us. I remember that this is how it was when we did summer camp. No problems with horses being led into and out of rings. I have moved my horses to a paddock away from these horses and with the rain and cold I really haven't been in the ring - not at all with students - in a couple of weeks.
So here's my thought about humans and herd dynamics. I don't think that it is just the type of work that horses are doing, I think it may be who is riding and who is in charge of the riding situation. When I am doing lead line lessons I am definitely in charge of the situation. Might this be the type of activity that young, untrained horses need to be exposed to on a daily basis, other than just their own training. Most professional trainers are working with more than one horse and with students as well.
Elaine
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 12:37 pm:
What may be the common factor since from your post I am gathering these horses all come from n.h. methods is the trainers desire to be gentle and kind to their horse.
They may simply be missing the idea of teaching the horses to respect people because they want to be 'friends' with their horse, not understanding that if the human isn't boss the horse will be. The boss horse is responsible for defending his territory and deciding who or what to defend from.
I have seen horses from all backgrounds of training behave in the manner you describe.
imho what happens is the first time or two the horse acts a bit in this way if he isn't corrected the behaviour has continually worsened.
Boredom will cause some vices but I don't see boredom with circles as being a cause of charging humans.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 - 8:43 pm:
Hi Elaine,
I find this subject very interesting. I have spent a lot of time observing horses and learning their dynamics in a herd. I keep my horse at a boarding stable and he is often in a pasture with a variety of horses in all manner of training. One thing I do from the get-go, right when I first meet a particular horse, is establish my space. I always carry a 12' lead rope. When a pushy horse comes near me I make him move out of my space. I never move my feet for a horse, even if he is a true brat. I waive the lead rope at him, even pop him in the nose lightly if I have to, but he has to move out of my way. One particular horse was a very dominant fellow that did not move easily. Yet, I was insistent and MADE him move.
If a pushy guy tries to get in the door as I bring my horse in, I stand large and tell him with my voice and body to back off. 90% is in your body language and the other 10% in your voice.
It usually takes me one or two visits to the pasture to get the new guy to realize I am not going to be pushed around. Even though he might remain pushy toward other people at the boarding stable, he is respectful of me. Each of us has to establish our boundaries with each horse and let them know our place in the hierarchy.
It sounds like you and your students have to walk through an open pasture area to get to the ring? In walking through, you encounter these pushy horses? If that is true, then I would start by myself without any students present and establish my boundary. Don't show any fear, even if you feel it. Stand tall, carry your whip or rope and demand the horse get back and out of your space. Don't back down until he obeys. Regardless of how he's been trained, he understands herd dynamics, so you can change how they react to you.
We have two horses at the barn that are supposedly trained with NH. I have studied NH intensively for years now and those two are most definitely not trained NH. They are worse after their so-called training sessions than before. True NH would never produce that result.
Good luck and stay safe.
Linda
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