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  Discussion on Bucks at dusk
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Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 31, 2008 - 9:50 am:

Dr O,
We moved to our trainers barn in Sept where we train in dressage 6 days per week. In November after a brief virus which I posted about and believe is unrelated (PCR negative, WBC's obliterated and fever for 48 hrs which resolved with rest, fluids etc. repeat CBC was normal) my horse has bucked under saddle in the canter depart and sometimes mid canter while riding in the outdoor arena. It only occurs if we are riding and the sun sets during out ride, something we did not have to contend with riding in the evening in summer when sunset was later. The arena is a long dressage arena with mirrors at the one end and tall 100 foot pines visable on both the short sides of the arena. This makes for some odd shade patterns at sunset. He then also becomes spooky at the mirrors which he is fine with if the sun is up. We now lunge him prior to any ride just in case it's an energy feel good thing. I have ridden him outside during cloudy conditions but almost never at dusk as we either lived in a location that was too cold and we had indoors or I had ridden in the early part of the day due to my school schedule. In the covered arena currently which is open on the sides he is a little better at dusk albiet still spooky if I don't have him round and his attention on me, but he has the confines of the four feet high kick boards which he seems more secure. The indoor however faces another direction and the sunset shadows are different. If I feel he is distressed with shadows and I turn the lights on it's business as usual.
So my question is...if this is a visual acuity issue at dusk with the shadows, do you think a shadow roll that they use for the race horses might help? Does anyone know where I can get one I just heard of them yesterday and have never seen one. Should be avoid dusk all together? This is a very well behaved horse who doesn't have any other behavior issues. Any suggestions? I ended up on my head in Nov (helmeted head). There is almost no warning if he bucks. I have sat them all but that one. I correct him in the buck but I really think he is terrified of the shadows and don't want to put him in a situation that distresses him if I can avoid it or can make it better for him to tolerate and I certainly don't want to get hurt. I repeat once the shadows are gone he is an angel.

Thanks,
Corinne
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 31, 2008 - 12:05 pm:

Hi Corinne,

Not Dr.O, but my gut says the bucking isn't ok, visual acuity issue or not. If he's afraid, then I'd approach this as a desensitization problem and arrange to expose him (kindly) to the troubling lighting conditions as much as you can. Ideally he will learn not to worry about them, but DrOpping the rider under stress is a big no-no, especially for a competition horse. He needs another coping strategy.

For what it's worth, my competition horse is going through a similar re-education process. She likes to buck when she's had enough, and I always laughed it off as an overly expressive way of sharing her opinions. Then she produced the behavior in a test at the end of a long day and... unfunny. So while I'm sensitive to them being horses, bucking is right out as a behavior in work, and especially with a rider up. You don't want to confirm this as an ok response.

I can feel the buck coming on, but even if you can't, assume it may be coming and keep him super busy when you're in changing light. Have a plan and ride him every stride. Small changes in flexion, lateral work (even a few steps), forward and back in the gait-- all these activities will keep him busy, and give you warning of his plans (he'll have to blow off your aids to set up a buck).

Let us know what you try and how it works.

- Elizabeth
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 31, 2008 - 1:39 pm:

Hello Corrine,
The decision to continue must be your own, even pages of description would not make us better able to decide the risk vs benefit issue for you.

Assuming spookiness at the change of lighting is the issue, I cannot see a shadow roll that blocks downward directed vision helping. However this is certainly pure conjecture on my part and if this is the route you wish to try also consider blinders if the roll does not work. If you are interested in checking his visual acuity at dusk see the article on Night Blindness.

I do agree with Elizabeth that desensitization may be the best treatment and simply several days or weeks of turn out in the arena at dusk should help the horse get over his dusk time jitters if there is no remarkable blindness at dusk.
DrO
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 31, 2008 - 4:35 pm:

Thanks Elizabeth and Dr. O, I will be trying to desensatize the behavior and I appreciate your input.
What has worked in the past for general spookiness is to walk him while on the lunge to the spooky thing with the lunge whip ahead of his nose so I am dictating the pace. When he has to pay attention to me and approaches something scary with then verbal reassurance we are good. Today the wind was bad for instance and he was freaking out on the lunge, we did some of the above exercises and by the time I got up he was fine. I also discovered while in lessons today that while it was not really intentional by me since I am quite muscular and tend to get behind the vertical a tad in the canter I have been driving with the seat inadvertently when it has not been needed, perhaps asking too much of a horse that doesn't need to be any more forward and is UBER sensative to the aides. Also in the canter (only) I had lost some of the flexability of my hips putting me slightly behind the vertical, once again driving too much. I was not really aware of this. A few small changes today and when he wanted to buck once at the wind he couldn't because my position was proper and he could not blow me off as Elizabeth states.
Will continue with riding at dusk, taking the suggestions given and hope we can nip the behavior in the bud because all we need is one show where I can't control the environment and I am in trouble. Luckily this is a new behavior and we have been on top of it, I am just not sure why it's occuring. Thanks so much!

Corinne

PS I will have then check his vision for night blindness but the vet out today thinks it's behavioral.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 11:19 am:

Update: Well we have been working diligently to stop this behavior and so far no bucking. The three antecedents (other than too much seat or leg that I mentioned above) that seem to perpetuate the buck are allowing him to fall on the forehand, too much inside rein with not enough outside rein which also allows him to DrOp the outside shoulder and canter depart when he has lost length in the neck, If any of the above occurs I have to stop, relax, allow him to stretch down with a nice round long neck even if it takes 10 minutes because he is excited or spooky (at the halt) then and gently work our way back up the gaits. We also have to remain VERY forward. Yesterday, it was dusk, the mini donkey's were out, the shadows were cast and following all the above techniques NO BUCKING! Will continue on!
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 2:06 pm:

Yay Corinne! Been wondering how you guys were getting along. Guess he needs to think of some other "funny" evasion now....

Are you planning to show this year? What's he schooling?
Member:
corinne

Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 5:19 pm:

He is such a tattletale....especially now that he has to be all through and on the bit and WORK and yes I bet he will come up with an evasion technique very quickly! Prayers that's not for a while though.
Anyway we went back to training level in May-June after a horrible outing at second level which we never should have been showing. We were still training level but were led to believe we were solid first etc, I didn't even know how to get the horse round. I am mortified about it but what are you going to do? Anyway, we moved to a wonderful barn then and spent the summer clinicing with Rebecca Rigdon (who is now Stephan Peters head horse trainer) and John Staples 10 time Rolex eventer and Olympic eventing alternate and they helped me get my confidence back just working on the basics. Then we moved to VA in July and have been riding and training with a USEF S judge who is still very active in showing herself. We have since made leaps and bounds under her instruction and guidance and have gotten some very respectable scores at first level at a schooling and recognized show in Nov (got my scores for my Bronze at first). We will show first level in March. We are working on some second level movements at home as is the horse when my instructor trains him but if in a lesson he fails to stay supple, round, forward regardless of what we are working on we go back to Training level and work our way back up. It's safe to say we will stay a full show season at first. He is really learning to be engaged in the hind end which is nice because even two months ago he would be first level behind with a fourth level head set. Now he is more first level for me in back and front. I have the best instructor in the world and I know we are going to do great things!
What do you ride and show?
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 11:52 am:

Quick update. I have been insisting that Demetrius stay long in the neck while walking to the arena, and before we mount to negate any tension that might lead to his bucking. So far so good. Does anyone know the physiological principals of why a horse with a stretched down neck is more relaxed? Or is it merely a position they have to be relaxed to maintain?

Thanks!
Corinne
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 12:53 pm:

Hi Corrine. Just a thought, are you more relaxed when Demetrius is walking around with his neck down? This might have something to do with it.

Also, he knows you aren't going to be demanding any work out of him as long as his neck is stretched down. Is there any chance that work is bothering him physically?
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 7:20 pm:

Sara I am making him do this prior to my mounting and you bet, I am sure he just relaxes his top line as he stretches over it and I talk to him softly especially at dusk to decrease his anxiety. In the saddle I also ask for frequent stretchy circles and I wish there were better words to describe it but when I say long in the neck I mean round and long, still on the bit (he has more room in his throat latch) as opposed to shortening his neck bringing the Atlas quite high....which he does when he in tense or scared and as always is the case before a buck. I was just wondering if the stretching over the top line, not allowing tension to form, prior to mounting and requiring him Not to be short in the neck in dressage terms that is (which makes him more relaxed and supple once we do ride) has any physiological reason that's it's beneficial. I have an idea...I will take pics of him in both positions for you guys because it's sure hard to describe and then would love some input!
As for anything physically he has a wonderful bill of health.

I appreciate your input, keep it coming. So far so good. This is clearly a tension related fear issue and I am lucky to have my instructor and you all.

v/r
Corinne
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 7:53 pm:

Oh, I get it Corinne. I wasn't visualizing the right picture. I was relating to myself and know that when I'm warming up while the horse is stretching etc. I'm much more relaxed and so is my horse. The minute a lesson starts I get tense, and of course, so does my horses.

In your situation, now you have me wondering. Maybe a picture would help. Probably some of the more experienced dressage and coach types will have some input and we can all learn - one of the fun things about this site.

Does your seat,or leg position change as he becomes more "up"? Have you tried ground driving him or walking along next to him while asking for the "higher" head set, and if so, does he respond the same way? I'm wondering if there's something in the weight/saddle/your balance that could be bothering him; or does it just seem like he's more excited? Waseem gets excited when he knows he's going to do an extended trot. He gets tense and tries to lift his head and chews on his bit. Once in it, you can tell he's enjoying it as he just swings along at this great trot like it's a lot of fun. Wonder if it could be the same for your guy? Just thinking "outloud."
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 8:50 pm:

Sara you are correct that once he gets up I am probably perpetuating it. He has never ever ever tried it with my instructor but she is a Grand Prix rider who has the best position I have ever seen. I tend to tense up a little bit afterwards and am more tense on the right side (rehab 3 months 2X weekly for the foot but I still don't have alot of strength and stability and I sometimes recoil that leg and draw it up probably in a self protective way). When he initially started this bucking as noted by folks on the ground he would start to draw the neck up, get very tense in the back, fall on the forehand and pop a shoulder out then he goes up in the hind end if I can't catch it in time. My instructor has been very thorough at teaching me when to expect it as I couldn't initially (as noted in my first post) and she has taught me how to de- esculate him which works very well...then when he is relaxed we go on about our work and do fine. If I am very intent now on him creating length through the throat latch and if I don't lose my outside rein and am able to effectively half halt while keeping him uphill with a longer neck he doesn't buck. But even on the ground on the lunge standing next to me if he sees a shadow or an animal runs by in the woods he will start the body language and will either buck on the lunge or get high in the neck and spook just standing next to me. While my position once I am tense probably doesn't help things he will do this on his own. The arena is covered with kick boards but the two sides are open. Sometimes something or someone will approach and he can't see them coming so that's an issue as well.
I will take some pictures of his position right before a buck (I will be on the ground and have him on the lunge) and his position long, round and uphill. Regardless of why....if he is allowed to do lots of stretchy circles and stretching down while on the bit it seems to supple him and for some reason decreases tension and that decrease in tension makes a situation where he is less likely to buck. One of the other GP trainers at the barn says she always does lots of stretching the young horses meaning while on contact they take the bit out and then down and create length in the neck while still staying round they seem to settle down. I bet it's like Yoga for them. A supple top line is less likely to recoil with tension when spooky things approach?
Will keep you all informed!
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 9:05 pm:

Hi Corinne,

I'm imagining this a bit like a free walk. I don't know whether the brain follows the movement or the movement follows the brain, but I know with my own hot mare that this way of going indicates submission, which is key to resolving the tension and also to preventing bucking and other obnoxious resistances.

I have learned with my current horse that allowing her to call the shots when she is nervous is always the wrong choice. She handles stress better when I am firmly in the lead (mentally) and keeping her busy (not in a punitive way, but in a firm way). So perhaps your insistence on this manner of going is reassuring him that you are in charge, and that all is well.

Sounds like wonderful progress!
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 9:18 pm:

Oh, Corinne . . . you aren't going to believe this . . . but this is my first time checking into this discussion because I thought the title "Bucks at Dusk" was a discussion about DEER . . . lol . . and I wasn't really interested in seeing a bunch of deer in the sunset . . . oh, gee . . .

Anyway, as to your question about the head down = relaxation . . . When does a horse's head go UP? When he's excited. It is good to teach the "head down cue," as a cue to relax the horse when he is in a situation that can create alarm. One of the things John Lyons used to always teach at his symposiums was the cue for the horse to lower his head. If you can teach a horse to lower his head on cue 100% of the time, you have a much better chance of keeping him calm.

Anyway . . . can't wait to see the photos of "Bucks at Dusk."

Miss your spontaneous phone calls as you whiz by the exit . . .
Sounds like you are in Horsey Heaven there in Virginia. Good for you.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 9:27 pm:

Holly, You aren't the only one...when I first saw the post I too was expecting to see a pretty picture of deer with the sunset in the background! Especially since Diane had been posting some of her lovely photos.

Corinne, if you get this figured out, I have a 5 yr. old I'm going to send you! Or,maybe I can learn how to get him to settle down in the arena by reading your posts.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 12:00 am:

LOL you guys crack me up. Leave it to you all to make me smile after a not so good day! LOL.
Anyway, YES you ladies have nailed it on the head and have answered the questions as to why when his head is down he is calm. I was thinking too much about physiology when it really might be herd dynamics as you suggest. That explains alot since these are fear reactions in him as opposed to aggression and with my being assertive and insisting, in a calm and supportive albiet authoritative way, that he relaxes since I step up and take that leadership role. He is all the more happy too relax. My old reaction was fear myself and well with the two of us out of control well he would win because he is bigger, he now sighs content and we have some of the best rides we have had and the bucking has all but stopped. I still have to be very alert though and now don't ride alone outside if I am alone. I am going to keep it up with the head down work. Since he will even strech long and low on the lunge when I use the verbal command "stretch" followed by "good boy, good boy" when he does, I have used it in the saddle when I feel him tense. Walking back to the barn initially I would just gently guide his head down with some slight inside rein or by putting my finger through the bit and gently guiding him down while saying stretch. Now I just have to say stretch and he does, even with deer running in the neighboring woods, or dogs barking, or little mini donkeys braying. Thanks ladies for your input. I am still going to take pictures so you can further understand the difference between his long in the neck while on the bit while mounted and long in the neck while he is free...vs his short neck when he is scared. And for amusement will add a pic of the albino deer that haunts the woods. It will clearly stand out in a dusk photo.
We will continue plugging away and I promise I should pay more attention to natural horseman!

PS Holly I miss you very much! And the kids on the farm, and the farm, and our long chats. I will be up in a few months to see Abby and if the upstairs is still open would love to spend a night with you!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 1:06 am:

Corinne, I'm very impressed that you have taught him to stretch out on command! I am envious of the great opportunity you have and the caliber of instruction you are getting. You are SO Lucky! It sounds like you are really making great progress. I enjoy reading about how the two of you are progressing. This bucking is just Demetrius' latest effort to test you and keep you on your toes, I'm sure!
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 2:01 am:

The upstairs is always available to you. If anyone else is upstairs when you call, I'll kick him/her out or let him/her battle with Dr. FYL for the sofa.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 10:16 am:

Thanks Sara I do have a smart little pony. In fact he has now been called one of the most talented dressage Arabians. Little did I know but I had been impeding his ability to go correctly by inadvertently asking for one response with an aide but canceling it out with another. So confusing for the horse. Had two light bulb moments to discover this. My instructor walked on the ground while we did a leg yield nose to the wall and she was in control of the reins, I just had to keep him moving. As she was taking inside rein I would almost always pull on the outside and it took a bit for her to get me to let go (as I had them in my hands in the normal position and her hands were on the rein at the bit). So we have really been working on correct application of and timing of the aides. Secondly she found this wonderful aide called the tattletale developed by an AA rider who always a hard time with proper quiet hands. It's a four piece Velcro system that attaches to the pommel and attaches to your wrists to keep your hands quiet (instantly creating a bend in the elbow which has always been a problem of mine) I never realized it but the reason I had an issue with the bend is I hiked my shoulders up with tension. In the device by necessity I had to DrOp my shoulders so my hands could be close to the pommel which gave me length in the arm and for the first time a bend in my elbow. It also for some reason allowed me to use all the other aides independently. Once the device is taken off you can still mimic the correct hand position because you have created muscle memory. Other than the bend my other problem was I kept my hands too wide, they weren't unquiet they were just too wide, well you can't in this device. So once we created an bend in the elbow from bit to mouth, once I brought my hands closer together and started to use the aides independently and in the correct sequence we have made leaps and bounds! And as for his responding to verbal command the stretching is new and discovered on accident because he did it once while on the lunge so I praised him. Additionally while on the lunge to encourage him to engage his hind end so we have a better ride, we have been using something Linda Tellington Jones suggests...we tie a Theraband (like you use in Physical therapy) from the girth, under his tail to the girth on the other side. He then has to be through while on the lunge as well.
Anyway, if you want to check out the quiet hands device check it out at
https://www.equiventions.com/testimonials.html, my coach and I both have testimonials on there.

Will let you all know how things continue to progress. And Thanks Holly, I hope to get there a few times a year to see both you and Abby! Looking forward to it....I will try to give you more time then just calling from the exit....or will I? LOL.
Member:
dres

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 11:01 am:

I had a instructor that would always ''hands together and down'' ... i hear that in my head always to this day.. and preach it to my grand daughters when they ride..
I never used such a device, but always made sure my little finger could feel the saddle pad in front of me.. That helped hugely ..

As far as putting a horses head down with a long neck takes a lot of practice and good correct timing of the aides .. Once you get that , then you can put your horses head anywhere you want it by a flick of your fingers and seat... My instructor will say in the beginning ..'' can you go lower?'' then she will say now how about knee/point of shoulder level and so on.. And yes it does relax the horse ...

I have a worry wart of a mare that i am taking back to the very basics of riding.. we sometimes just walk for an hour reaching and connecting to a soft feel, head down head 1/2 down.. all with a soft feel.. This is not easy for a worry wart and a thinking mare...but i have seen huge progress with this 'take a step backwards' approach with her.. Now when the neighbors kids do crazy Sh*t to get me dumped ,,, i can DrOp her head to where she says... ahhhh i know this position and forgets about the crazy kid for a moment...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 3:41 pm:

Corinne if you find out the physiological link here please do let us know! I also ask my horses to lower their heads if I feel them getting nervous, both in the saddle and on the ground, and it always results in them relaxing. I have always thought the submissive posture allowed them to let me take over and worry about the boogers. There's gotta be a link in there somewhere though!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 4:47 pm:

A lot of food for thought here, Corinne. Leave it to you! Of course, Holly is right; one of the first things you get a horse to do when starting them, is getting them to lower their head and to let you touch the top of their head. As Shannon said, it's a submissiveness/dominance thing. I've never considered that the act could be calming to the horse!

If you think about ourselves, when under stress, or "performing" we automatically tense up, and get "on edge." If we force ourselves to stop and take a deep breath and force ourselves to DrOp our shoulders, our entire body and mind relax. Why wouldn't it be the same for the horse? Just never thought about it. Now, as to physicalogical ties, I don't know. But would love to find out.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 5:32 pm:

LOL Today it was a step back. He was up when we left the barn, spooking and shying. He spooked then bucked quite a bit on the lunge and regardless of what I did I couldn't get him back while mounted, it took forever to make him release and create space in the throat latch....the entire lesson he was tense and on alert although I did get him to respect me (with my instructor's help and with insistence that he do what I was asking even if it wasn't pretty therefore he didn't not buck) but all and all I was not happy that we had to focus on that the entire lesson although on the bright side I will know how to handle it in the future. I made him walk with a long neck back to the barn and it took 20 minutes for 500 feet as he wanted to shy and leave the situation. I don't know if it was the animals in the woods, the cold front coming through the new little hairy goats that were in a different paddock but either way I did not tolerate it so I hope he is learning as well.
Ahhh I need wine!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 5:59 pm:

LOL! Wasn't there a line or two in the post on why we have horses about their teaching us patience!

Enjoy your wine; you deserve it~
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 7:06 pm:

Linda Tellington-Jones also really emphasizes getting horses to lower their heads to relax them - even uses food treats to encourage them to lower their heads when doing ground training.

When my horses are concerned about something in the area, their heads and necks go up while they try to figure out what it is that is spooking them. This is without being ridden or worked in any way. Only if they feel confident will they lower their heads to graze, for instance. I am wondering if it is the survival instinct in them.

Lilo
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