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Discussion on Rider's Hips during Lateral Work
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 10:08 am:
Angie brought up a question to me this morning that reminded me of a related technique, and I wanted to post here to see what other folks find in their riding/training.
The last three days, I've been riding three different horses, working on lateral and fore/hind exercises. I've noticed that when I use my leg to move the shoulders or haunches or just to get a sidepass, my hip tenses on the active leg side, and my opposite hip is the one that feels as if it has DrOpped.
This is the question: Does a horse move away from the rider's DrOpped hip or does the horse move UNDER a DrOpped hip?
We had this discussion at a CHA riding instructor's clinic many years ago. The Clinic instructor was describing using the pressure of the hip to get a horse to move away. One of the trainers at the clinic said that she had found that a horse would naturally move UNDER a DrOpped hip in order to get balanced, and she used the analogy of a person carrying a backpack that slips to the side, and how the person will try to get under the backpack in order to regain the balance.
Ultimately, I believe that we can train the horses to respond either way . . . as long as we are consistent with giving the release when we get the desired response.
Thanks for your input.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 10:51 am:
Holly,
From the book "Balance in Movement" the author says under a picture caption, "lateral shift of weight contains a forwards downwards movement of the leg." In the more detailed written part, she says if you shift your weight to one side, one dimensional, that is incorrect. You need to shift it three dimensional, diagonally forwards and downwards.
It gets more complicated for me at that point, that was enough to digest for now, thus my reason for writing you and asking you questions!
I would tend to agree with the trainer who said the horse would move to balance under the DrOpped hip; that is how I was trying to use it anyhow.
If you lean into a corner like riding a bike, you are leaning into the turn. So I thought being on a horse, you are doing the same in a very subtle way?
Now I am anxious to see input from others!
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 11:12 am:
Angie,
I've read that using a bike analogy does not work with horses since bikes are on a straight plane but a horse is on four legs. I have been taught not to lean into a corner, just the opposite, to weight the outside a bit.
I am no expert and look forward to others comments.
Linda
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 11:45 am:
Interesting question. I would agree that horses can learn to respond either way, personally I think if you even said 'abracadabra', followed by some physical cue, and repeated it enough times rewarding the behavior you wanted you'd get a horse that could sidepass when you said abracadabre! 
But I think what you're asking is what is the clearest/most natural physical cue to the horse? I would say for that the answer depends on the horse's own natural balance and level of training. IME young unbalanced horses can be 'steered' by pushing them with your weight to the outside. i.e., DrOp your weight to the outside of a circle, and they naturally move to the inside, just for lack of being able to balance under your weight.
Older horses that already know the ropes will try to come under you to balance the load. For example, I was climbing aboard my gelding last week and my balance was thrown off by my fat pregnant belly (yes I've stopped riding). My gelding politely stepped up under my weight so he didn't lose me 
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 12:57 pm:
I don't think the author means lean into the corner, the picture though does show the inside leg on a circle being the leg that is lengthening and shifting the riders weight inside. I think. I didn't explain that well above. I think maybe keeping the lower part of the body seperate from the upper for now might help; I am reading about the pelvis and it's movement. I've read the book from through once, and I am picking it apart more now.
I can't wait for some one else to chime in here with their ideas either.
Nothing like trying to improve one's riding from reading!
Look what you started here Holly! Our brains will be spinning, lol!
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 1:47 pm:
Thanks for the input, Shannon. It's interesting to me that I've been taught the the horse's natural response is to move INTO pressure . . . and we need to teach them to do the opposite . . . to move AWAY from pressure ('cept when teaching them to lower their heads from on top) . . .
It would seem that your are saying you have noticed that green horses move away from it, while a seasoned horse moved toward it. Of course, it might be that your older horse was being protective of you and used more thought than just physical response.
Angie, does the author explain the purpose of the DrOpped hip and lengthened leg? Is it to hold the horse on the outside of the circle? Is it to be the "post" around which the horse circles? Is it just "there" or is it used with pressure?
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 1:52 pm:
When performing leg yields in dressage we point our inside shoulder to the outside ear of the horse thus putting slightly more pressure on inside seat bone. So in that case it would seem that horse moves under the lighter seat bone away from the one using more pressure. But you are correct Holly that they can be trained to do both because I have also leg yielded more on the outside seat bone and he still performed the movement. I guess as the other say it's all relative. I bet that didn't help at all. LOL.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 2:13 pm:
All I can add is IF you over analyze the whole thing.. your riding will go down hill quickly..  We then become totally off balanced and can't remember which way is my other right!!!!
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 3:22 pm:
Hmm Holly, I'm not sure if the young horse is naturally giving to pressure or just physically unable to resist. I'm thinking tall lanky 2 and 3 year olds. It does seem to be a consistent phenomenon though.
You can actually 'cheat' and make a young horse look a lot further along than they are by pushing them around with your weight. I still remember the first time I discovered this .. was working a young horse in a big outdoor arena that had a slant to the entire thing. At the uphill side, she would always cut the corner and on the downhill side she'd work out towards the rail. By shifting my weight I realized I could compensate for the slope and keep her where I wanted her. She wasn't being contrary, she just physically needed some help staying balanced.
Anyway whether horses naturally give or lean into pressure is another question. I have certainly known both heavy leaners that are hard to break of the habit and those that are feather light from day one. Either way though by the time they are backed I try to at least somewhat reprogram to give to pressure through groundwork.
Now that you mention it, I do think my older horse was trying to save me from falling off  rather than genuinely moving into pressure. Normally he is of the feather light variety. I swear he also tries to stay under me if I'm riding bareback too!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 4:47 pm:
Hmmm..mind if I complicate the question? When performing leg-yields while moving forward, I tend to do what Corinne describes, with the inside leg long and slight shoulder turn to the outside.
But if doing a turn on the haunches, I tend to do the opposite--I think!!
For the turn on the haunches, I shorten the inside (direction of the turn) and somewhat turn my sholders inside also.
Oh my!I think Ann is right. I'm gonna stop even trying to figure this out! I think we probably most do things pretty habitually because it WORKS. So I'll just keep on keepin' on!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Mar 20, 2009 - 11:28 pm:
It depends... ;) It very much depends on what you have taught the horse to do.
if you are not sitting square or truly centered "naturally" most horses will follow where you place more weight. It can be extremely subtle, so much so you may not even notice it! But a sensitive horse will feel it and move accordingly.
I can only speak to what I have been taught and to what I do when I ride. My horses follow my weight. This is how I tell them where to place their weight and which direction to go in. Granted we aren't at a very high level yet so take this as a foundation if you will, or basics of dressage.
My horse has been taught to stay under the rider at all times, she will follow my weight. So if I were to lean into a turn Angie, she will step more underneath me to pick me up, it helps her remain balanced. (Horses do tend to freak when unbalanced)
I use my weight shifting to tell her to shift her weight. So for a leg yield, my weight goes to the outside, in the direction of travel, while my body tells her 'forward'. She moves forward and over at the same time.
If I shift my weight to the inside more she moves in that direction, if I also ask her to bend, or allow her to bend, she will circle.
For a turn on haunches, (in motion) I ask her rebalance with a slight half halt, and I will ask for that half halt on her outside fore, then immediately as the outside hind touches down I place more weight into it on the outside; this is where I "pick up her shoulders and move them to the inside" slightly" by simply moving my hands together slightly to the inside and then touch-touch-touch with outside leg with slightly more inside seat bone pressure as she begins to come around, touches with outside unto the turn is complete, then walk on. I normally do not need further half halts in between, she shifts her weight back to her hind end and stay there while her forehand remains light and mobile.
For shoulder fore, I again use the same principle as the TOH, just until I move her shoulders slightly to the inside, then a bit more weight on inside seat bone to produce a softened bend, yet slight pressure to the outside for direction of travel and asking her to move on "straight' forward. My body is slightly facing the direction of travel.
For shoulder in, once I have a nice bending, maybe by riding a very small "volte", 8-10m circle, I can continue on by keeping her shoulders in the bend, my body again is facing the direction of travel, I place a bit more weight in the outside stirrup to tell her where to move to, and inside seat holds the bend along with my hands positioned together.
Doing a SI from a straight line, I use the same TOH principle to position her shoulders off the track to the inside (weight shifts back, lift and move the shoulder over to the inside by moving my hands together in that direction.) inside seat holds the bend, outside stirrup pressure to indicate direction of travel, body facing slightly in the direction of travel and forward we go. ;)
Angie you really should come out and ride my girl, this may sound really complicated but it truly isn't when riding her! haha
Let's see we have only just begun half pass, and we're struggling a bit when more than a few strides of it. haha
Haunches in is a good exercise as well, and for that it's much as above, just asking her to position her rear inside instead of her forehand.
But my favorite lateral exercise is riding a square by riding forward 5 strides, hen doing what you would call a sidepass, we call it a full pass, 5 strides say right, then back 5 strides and again sidepass 5 strides left; or the "z" where you ride forward then sidepass then forward again then sidepass the opposite direction. These are great laterals.
Mostly my body position remains centered over hers in lateral work with exception of the degree to which I choose to move her. (three track SI vs 4 track...)
hmmm not sure if I have any photos...
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 - 9:46 am:
Ann . . . good point . . . to not over analyze and to ride by feel. If our bodies are "soft," we can ask lightly and move with the horse . . . more of an allowing than a pushing or pulling . . .
Erika, as I sit here in my chair, I'm practicing riding . . . and, yes, your cues make sense and are not contradictory. For a leg yield to the left, your shoulders would "look" left, and your outside leg would lengthen and your outside hip would be adding pressure. For the turn on the haunches, when moving the shoulders to the right, your outside (left) leg would seem to lengthen and go forward to help move the shoulders, and your shoulders would be looking to the right a bit as the front of the horse moves around the "stationary" hind end.
So . . . in that case, (at least sitting here in my chair) I can see how the hips would be DrOpping and adding pressure from which the horse moves away.
Hmmm . . . but when I was on top last week, I was concentrating to see what my body was doing, and it seemed like the hip above my active leg was lifting a bit rather than DrOpping.
Will have to do more this week with the same horses and see.
Terrie, thank you for your LONG response . . . lol . . . (ever thought of writing a book?) . . . You are describing what I thought was happening originally. I've reread your post twice . . . and will do so, again, before I head out to experiment.
When I'm riding for myself, I do what works, but if I'm explaining to someone else, I want to be clear in my instruction, so that's my main reason for asking.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 - 10:43 am:
Thanks, that's not a bad idea Holly. LOL I began journaling my lessons long ago. I started it so I could try to remember what I learned each week. What I discovered was I would re-ride it l in my head while I tried to take notes on key points. And then someone would ask me question.... so my lesson diary started to get much more detailed. And I can certainly add way more! hahaha It is not an easy thing to write out "how" to do X in riding I have found. I have to ride it and ride it and ride it in my head in order to find the best way to describe it in mere words. Not easy at all! But what I discovered was that by doing this little exercise in between my lessons, all of the teaching sank in much deeper, I progressed MUCH faster. (Only riding once a week makes progress very slow.)
Ann is so right!! Riding IS feel, it's all about feel. That has to happen on both sides though, meaning the horse has to feel and respond too.
Less is so much more. I always start out with a whisper and see where it goes. I only have to 'think' what I want to do on my mare and she is already doing it. Don't need any more strength to ride her than it takes to remain on top. She is truly awesome to ride.
And besides it's an overall "technique", not that every detail will be exactly the same every ride, right? Some days it may take more body posture from us, or less to achieve the same move, I think.
To ride a basic leg yield, I simply place more pressure to the outside, or into the direction I wish to go, (be it weighting in seat bone or a bit thru the stirrup) while sitting dead square to hold her body straight opposite leg touches to ask her to move 'over'. (as that hind leg is lifting off the ground to influence it's direction of travel) So I can ride along straight or on a circle and simply place weight to the direction I wish to go and touch-touch-touch 'over' and she follows where my weight has gone. For a leg yield or an enlarging on the circle, my shoulders remain square with hers.
The hard part for most people I think is in not holding the outside (direction of travel) of the horse "together", as they tend to plow thru a shoulder or swing the haunches. Initially this can take alot of body strength on our part to 'hold" them in the same position they were in when we began to move over.
Just don't "push" over more than you can "catch" at any time.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 - 11:27 am:
Terrie,
I do sort of have a book of yours, I know I've printed your responses before to file for future reference. Of course, I am not very good at looking at things I file...
I will be sitting my exercise ball now, reading through your response and trying to "feel" my way through this.
With 4" of fresh snow on the ground, and a cold, rainy forecast for the next week, all my riding will be done on the ball, not on a real horse.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 - 4:40 pm:
Hey All
I have been wanting to get one of those large exercise balls too. But wasnt sure what size to get? I dont want to develope any weird muscle memory due to wrong size.
Anyone know?
Leslie
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 1:33 pm:
Hey, Leslie,
The ball I have has a description on the front that tells what size ball to get for your height.
I probably have one that is too large for me, but it seems to work okay. Mine says "MEDIUM" for 5'6"-5'11".
On the subject of rider's hips:
Yesterday, I rode my Draft gelding, and I have to ride him bareback because I don't have a saddle to fit his withers. I took him in the arena first, and took note of the action of my hips as I asked him to weave cones, turn on the haunches, turn on the forehand, and leg yield. He is really awful at going to the right for moving his shoulders over or leg yielding. Nevertheless (I tried to keep my reins really "loopy") I found that he did respond to my weight shifts, and this is what I felt:
When I asked him to go left, I naturally shifted my hips left which lengthened my left leg and put my weight more on my left seat bone BUT . . . my RIGHT seat bone put pressure against the right side of his spine and provided a "push." When I shifted my weight to the right, and DrOpped my right seat bone and lengthened my right leg, the inside of my LEFT seat bone pressed against the left side of his spine. So . . . at least bareback, my experience yesterday was that it seems that there is a combination of weight pressure/ and "push" pressure to get the horses to move laterally.
With a saddle, it may not be as noticeable, and a bit of leg against the horse's side might be needed, at first.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 3:26 pm:
Thanks Holly
hehehe....boy do I feel dorky. I was thinking I needed one as big as a horses' barrel (which I could never find at walmart )
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 4:30 pm:
Welcome to the Dork Club, Leslie. I've been feeling dorky all by myself, and it's comforting to have a dorky friend.
The ball can be made soft or hard (smaller or taller) according to how much you inflate it. I have used mine as a chair at the computer, and the correct height matters if you want your thighs parallel to the floor.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 6:57 pm:
During my last lesson (last fall), my trainer was having me "sweep the saddle" following with the hind leg movement during the turn. Is that what you guys are talking about above?
LOL I cant remember the details. I guess that lesson didnt 'take'!
Holly-my 4 year old, who is learning to read, just asked my what the Dork Club is? LOL
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 5:14 pm:
Hey I am a member of this club too. How cool. Leslie, I am not so sure "a sweep of the saddle" is the same thing. Images that conjures are... um...interesting.
Holly very interesting notes from your bareback ride. I am still not so sure that there is much 'push' from my seat for a leg yield. I know that I have more weight pressed in the direction of travel, she goes where my weight IS, not away from. She will move away from a pulsing leg aid (or whip touches which I actually use way more than my leg). True with saddle one may not feel what you feel bareback. ;] Since I do not ride bareback very often (chicken!!) it may be a very long while before I test that theory out myself, but plan to do - someday. Sitting on Bella's back is like sitting on a bowl of jello, it's really wobbly up there. She is like our Labs, loads of 'extra skin that moves' on top of the muscling on her back. Heck I can swing the saddle sideways a good couple inches by just leaning alot and it's just moving with her skin. Well ok, so it's more than just her skin, but that's what it feels and looks like. Anyway my super-keen fear of coming off goes on overload when I sit on her bareback. Luckily I have to admit she's been super good about not letting me "wobble" too much. If I wobble on her she slows down or stops until I am balanced again and ask her to move. Still I admit to being way too chicken right now to try bareback again very soon. ;)
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 6:00 pm:
Terrie, I've been trying to envision how you teach your horses to move under your weight? From a training POV, teaching a horse to move away from pressure is easy and clear to me. Pressure + well timed release = horse that moves away from pressure.
Are you adding the 'move under me' cue as a secondary response to the 'move away from leg pressure' cue? In other words, simultaneously ask with weight position and leg for lateral movement, so that both become associated with the desired response? Or am I missing the mark?
Or maybe the simultaneous aids and ability to ask with one cue or the other is just what happens naturally due to our natural body position when the aid is applied?
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 12:09 pm:
Excellent question Shannon!! I will not go into detail in this explanation. Suffice to say it may sound highly controversial, but trust me, there is a sound method to this madness. LOL
First, my mare was pretty young when I got her at age 5, she was VERY "green", she'd been only very lightly started under saddle, had only been under saddle for about a year. I give this preface because she is the first horse I have ever had experience with good training of a pretty untrained horse, for riding that is. (And keep in mind I study classical dressage with her....)
When I first got her my trainer said, we need to first teach her to always stay underneath you. Sounds simple enough, right?? This means of course this particular training takes place only with a rider. Basically what he did was purposely throw her off balance! Yup, over and over and over again. Loads of very sharp, sudden directional changes at a fast paced trot, for instance. (He never cantered and did this that I am aware of!!!) This is of course something to be done by a professional that knows the limits because it can be disastrous otherwise, but then, that could be said of much training anyway, eh??
I reinforce his training by doing the same thing every so often, I actually have her looking like a trotter on a race course and I just change direction suddenly without preparing her for it. She HAS to remain under me or she'll fall. So she naturally now will "pick up my weight" no matter where I place it. And this is a natural tendency of course, cause no horse likes to be off balance or to fall down.
But again, and I cannot stress this enough!!! Do not attempt this on your own, please. Get professional help to learn how to apply it!!! You can do way more harm if not done correctly besides getting seriously hurt yourself. Would I do this myself on a youngster?? Not on your life! haha would ask my trainer to do this training, and then I can keep it with reinforcing. I know I don't have the skillset required to be able to do it well.
That said, on a trained horse you should be able to shift yourself in the saddle and they should move underneath you. You wouldn't need to necessarily really throw them way off balance to accomplish the same training. Have you ever really leaned off one side of the saddle before?? Or have you ever been trotting around at a good pace and decided to change direction suddenly?? For you western fun people,ever do any gymkhana games?? ;) Same principle. It's all about balance.}
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 1:13 pm:
Terrie, I would be interested to know what your trainer was doing with his weight during the sudden change in directions? If you cue the horse to turn sharply but don't stay 'on top of' them and allow them to follow the cue, it almost seems like a mixed message? But if he's keeping his weight centered over her, then I don't see where the 'stay under me or fall over' thing is happening if she's responding well to the request to turn. I don't think I'm understanding correctly...
When you are riding your mare, if you give no other cues (DrOp the reins and keep your legs off her) and you shift your weight suddenly to the right, is that enough to cause her to turn right?
What I have done most in my horsey career is colt starting, though those days are finally behind me I think as I'm not training professionally any more. Or at least I try to avoid it. :-) Anyway I can't think of a time when I was purposely throwing the horse off balance, though I guess using my weight as an additional cue to 'push' them where I wanted them to go could be interpreted that way. But the result would be the opposite of the horse staying under me. And this was not really a training strategy so much as an incidental.
If you could explain this in any more detail I'd really appreciate it. My brain is even more tickled now than before!
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 5:38 pm:
LOL Terrie
So I emailed my trainer and asked her about 'sweeping the saddle' and she emailed me back saying Huh?? 'sweeping the saddle??!!' I guess I mis-heard (to say the least)she had told me to 'swing in the saddle' and apply my aid to his barrel as it swings.
And so now I am getting a big chuckle cuz I remember thinking to myself " ummmmmm, uhhhhhh, ok, sweeping the saddle' hehehehe
Although---I did google it last night before I heard from my trainer and actually found something about it (sweeping the saddle with one's seat) and sitting the canter.
LOL
Leslie
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 25, 2009 - 4:30 pm:
Shannon, please email me privately and I will be happy to continue this line of thought with you! terriedouglas@hughes.net
Short answer to one of your questions, will my horse go to the right if I don't have reins and keep legs off but just place weight? yes, she will.
Leslie, that's very funny! haha partly why I asked because I have heard this phrase before and know what it normally means... so had to check with you!
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