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  Discussion on Laziness
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Member:
lhenning

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 10:31 am:

Not sure if I call this a "go problem", but this seemed the best place to post this issue. My horse goes when I ask, no problem there. However, he moves like he is in slow motion, or like he took ten doses of sleeping pills. I think he is lazy. This is how he's always been so it is not a medical issue.

I am looking for ideas on how to deal with this issue. What do you do to "wake your horse up"? I've tried the big kick, or the whip, and it gets me a little response, but only for a couple minutes. If something happens in the arena that spooks Cutter, he will wake up in an instant, so I know he has it in him. He is only eight, so old age is not the issue. The problem is between us. How can I wake this boy up?

Thanks,
Linda
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 10:55 am:

Linda, a simple quick thought..
Maybe he does not believe you really want him to wake up.. he is not convinced..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 11:15 am:

What is he being fed? Most "lazy" horses I know perk up when fed good quality food and supplements. Maybe he just needs more energy? Also, is he on a regular worming schedule?
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 11:42 am:

My gelding Blue, is such the poster child for 'Laziness'. LOL It can be more frustrating than a horse that runs off w you. Blue will do the ocassional spook too, which totally catches me off guard and scares me to death btw. LOL

I am fortunate to have a stepdad as a trainer who is helping me with this. I am finding my horse does not nec. have a laziness issue, but more an attention span issue. He is very dead quiet and 'bomb proof' so he could care less about what I'm doing. His mind (and eyes) wander or he just 'goes to sleep' under me.

With a 'lazy' horse, you have to be absolutely relentless and consistent in repeating what you are doing. You have to make it uncomfortable for them to be lazy... if you are using a crop, first cue with your legs then with the crop and keep doing it until you get the desired response... at some point he will decide, "I don't like that anymore." If you feel him slow back down, try and start 're-cueing' him BEFORE he slows down or stops. You can usually feel when a horse is about to let down. Some horses have to learn how to "go" just like others have to learn to 'stop'. It's all about finding his gas pedal or at least showing HIM where it is. LOL

I have found that I have to keep my horse constantly 'busy' while riding so he stays tuned in. I get his attention and wake him up by working circles, changing directions, bending, sidepassing, etc.... getting him to be soft and supple not only in the mouth, but also bending well in the middle and giving to leg pressures, and different cues, etc.

Also, spurs, if used correctly, are can be a huge saver to you and your horse. Spurs get a bad rap because of ignorant ppl that don't use them correctly and 'punish and torture' their horses with them. I personally think that pounding on a horses side with your legs and heels is much more harmful and can wear you out WAY before your horse responds to it. Spurs on the other hand are just an extension of your heal and provide more of an exact pressure point than merely just using your boot heal. Rowls should NOT be sharp and should roll and not be fixed (or rusted) into one position. Do not kick with them but rather apply pressure just behind the girth and increase the pressure until you feel your horse 'give' to them. This giving can be a bend to the side, a move forward, etc. and then reward them by releasing the pressure. Keep doing this over and over and over. Pretty soon you will develop 'buttons' on your horse's side that tell him 'move forward', 'go faster', 'move sideways' and even 'collect'.

I hope at least some of this helps. Sorry it's not very organized but I am running short on time. ;-) I think we need a support group on 'lazy' horses because I sooo feel your pain! LOL Good luck!
Member:
mientjie

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 12:09 pm:

This is most probably WAY off, but maybe it is something to check out.

I got my mare Amanda when she was 3 1/2 years old and in great health. However she seemed so lazy and I wasn't (and I'm still not) nearly strong enough to make her do what I wanted. This got worse and worse and I had no idea what was going on. I tried to be gentle, be strict but nothing worked. We increased her feed and the problem got even worse. Later we found out that she has EPSM and immediately changed her diet as the vet recommended. Since then she was never 'lazy' again! She is forward going and moves with the greatest of ease.

Hope you get your boy sorted in no time! :-)
Member:
stek

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 2:24 pm:

Linda, once you have ruled out any physical or dietary issues that might need to be addressed, that leaves training.

I haven't tried this myself (somehow I never end up with the lazy ones!) but a method I have seen Clinton Anderson use that seems like it might be a good solution is to focus on forward motion at the last speed you instructed until you ask for a change.

He does this by basically getting the horse moving to whatever speed, giving them the ability to go wherever in the arena they want, and cues them the second they start to slow down. So, achieve a forward trot (or any gate), then cue any time the horse even begins to slow down a fraction. Do this repeatedly until the horse starts waiting for you to make the decision to slow down.

From a training perspective, this is the exact opposite of letting the horse slow down then cueing for more impulsion if your timing is right on.

The key thing that I think makes sense about this method is that you are ONLY focusing on getting the horse to hold his gate, so you aren't confusing the issue by mixing it with other cues such as turn left, turn right, collect, extend, etc. Of course this requires a safe and secure arena to work in.

If you try this method, I would be curious to hear if it works for you.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 3:07 pm:

Oh, this is good stuff.

Ann, you say he is not convinced . . . hmmm.

So as Jennifer describes (and that is my horse to a T), I need to increase my demands in such a way to "convince" him to get going. Does that sound right? I carry a dressage whip (though I ride western, not dressage). He is not intimidated by it. I also admit I am not very good at applying it at the correct moments. I either don't have it on the correct side, or I forget to use it, or I miss and hit my own leg.

The idea of spurs has occurred to me before but I have never used them. However, I think now might be the time to give them a go. My legs are quiet and I feel confident I can use them correctly. You speak of the ones with rowls, which I think are the wheels on the ends? I've seen ones with just a short, smooth metal cylinder about half the size of my thumb. Would that be a good choice for a first set?

Feed does not seem as likely. He is getting 12% sweet feed and free choice hay. He is fit and muscled because I ride him frequently. I could increase the sweet feed but I want to try addressing this with training first, because my gut feeling is that's the problem. I will keep it as a backup plan though.

EPSM - don't really know anything about that. I shall read up on it.

Shannon, Clinton Anderson's cruising exercise is what you are describing. I will try that, especially now that we can use the outdoor arena.

This is very helpful. Thank you all.

Linda
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 3:47 pm:

I so wish I could explain myself as well as you all do. In a nutshell, the trainer I used to work for said a "lazy" horse needs to be made "light" nagging with your leg is not going to help and actually make him worse. Here's how he "lightened" up the lazy/dull ones and he rode quite a few of them and did a great job.

When asking for a transition he first asked with LIGHT leg pressure....no response...immediate tap with the whip..tap,Tap,TAP,Tap...nagged with the tapping until desired response. Repeat through transitions or whenever you want more "response" In effect he was teaching them light leg pressure means respond or you are going to be Tapped lightly or a little harder until desired response.

It NEVER took more than a week of this before the horse was light to leg aids.

Here's the warning...I tried this on Hank, I had made him a little dull with nagging legs. Not kidding after a couple days of this..light aids woke him up real WELL...TOO well. If I barely touched his side he was moving from that pressure...I had a sensitive mess!
We got that straightend out in fairly quick order, it was almost funny the complete difference in him...ALMOST!
Member:
terrido

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 4:14 pm:

I happen to agree with use of a whip - CORRECTLY to 'wake him up' a bit. Whether it's his feed, his nature, or having become dull from too much aiding, or just because he knows he can get away with it because you give up too soon, whatever, correct use of a whip should help.

I absolutely agree with Diane! It's not just 'timing' here we are talking about, but actually making him understand that you mean what you ask for. There is a difference. Some horses just need you to let them know you mean it, you aren't going to back down and then they are more cooperative. I have had this happen alot with "dull" horses. They've just been taught they can do as they please is all.

Linda I am asking you to email me privately, I think I can help you. terriedouglas@hughes.net
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 5:02 pm:

HI Linda,
I have a filly like your guy and when I was training her to load on a trailer I found out that just tapping at the same level did not work. I had to start light and tap harder until she couldn't tolerate it before she would move. Clinton Anderson teaches that you need to escalate the cue or you could spend all day asking.

Cynthia
Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 5:15 pm:

Yup, got me one of them lazy ones, too. I find what has helped a lot was lots of transitions. Walk, trot, walk, canter, trot, canter....

Trying to maintain speed comes after you can get a good response off your leg when speeding up. Use the whip briskly if you are going to use it. My Cleo couldn't care less about a whip unless I mean it. Tap tap tap just gets ignored.

Terrie, if you are giving some advice that we all might enjoy, I hope you'll post it. If you go private we don't get to learn from what works for you. There are so many means to an end, it's nice to hear other methods.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Apr 10, 2009 - 7:05 pm:

I personally would rather use spurs than a whip, too much to worry about in my hands while riding. But reins with heavy ends work too.

BUT, I would use a whip on the lunge line, and that may be a starting point, or a place to go back to.

Will he hold a brisk trot on the lunge line? If not, get after him! Wear comfy shoes for this, it might mean you moving more at first. I've had more horses that were hard to slow down on the lunge line than speed up, but if you do it correctly, it may help transition to your riding.

I would start him walking on the lunge line to warm up, then ask for a trot, saying TROT in a crisp manner, and if he don't pop right into it, I'd ask with the lunge whip. A good smack on the rump that says "NOW D*MM*T!" If he starts lollygagging, another crack. I don't mean beat him, it shouldn't take more than once or twice. After that he should perk up as soon as you say trot, and even lift the whip...remember body language is everything.

If you are more comfortable asking gently and esculating, you could go that route, but this may be a case where that don't work..every so often there is a horse that needs something different.

Just be careful not to turn it into a chase; let him be responsible for his speed, you give reminders if he forgets. Keep the circle small enough so you don't have to put on so many miles;-)

If he's not in shape of course, don't make him sore. A few brisk laps, rest. Switch direction, repeat.

Repeat with a canter; again, a few circles is enough, bigger circles better for that gait of course.

Many don't agree with voice commands, but if you can get him to walk, trot, and canter on the lunge line with your voice and body language, it should help with riding.

I would then ride, and use the spurs. A cheap pair with a small rowel is what I use, just slide on your boots. Use them first for moving sideways, then when he understands that, as reinforcement for forward. Jennifer does a great job of explaining how to use the spurs; eventually your horse will respond to your tighten of the calf muscle to move because he knows more pressure comes next, followed the more of the spur until it hurts if he don't respond!

Like said above, work on transitions, and lots of "dressage" type moves. Set up an obstacle course might help too, make him pay attention to keep his mind occupied; it all ties together IMHO.

Let us know what works; I have a 20 year old mare that is like a slug when riding with other horses, a firecracker alone! She'll keep up, but a fast walk is not her style, it's that dang jigging!
Member:
canter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 10:13 am:

Linda, lots of good advice here. My mare has become lazy to my leg and it's my fault. I have problems holding my leg still, so inadvertently bump her without meaning to and over time, she has tuned my leg out. We are currently working to correct this, using some of the ideas listed above.

I'd like to add to Erika's comment regarding transitions. I'll use an example to illustrate. In trot, cross the diagonal, or start a serpentine or some other shape. As you cross the middle of the arena (or some other planned spot), transition down to a balanced and forward walk and then immediately ask for trot again. If the horse does not respond with a brisk transition to trot, bump with leg, smack with the crop, whatever you need to do to get a good forward transition up. After a few steps, ask again for walk...walk a few steps, ask again for trot. Do this within the gaits, walk to canter, trot to canter, etc, always asking for a crisp and immediate response. You can do this at every quarter circle, at each letter of the arena, however you want, but make sure you have planned the spot for the transition so there's no question in your mind as to whether or not the response was what and where you wanted.

After a while, I think you will find your horse really listening, is more in front of your leg and your requests will get lighter and lighter.

One other thing, after warm up (and you can practice the above while warming up at the walk/halt), start teaching your horse that when you pick up the reins, it is time to work. I've been a bit wishy washy (so my trainer says!) and have let my mare dictate the pace of when SHE's ready to really get down to business. As a result, we've had mediocre rides until 30 minutes into it. I'm now insisting that she pay attention when I decide its time to work and that has come a long way in improving the quality of the work throughout the whole ride.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 11:13 am:

Fran brings up a good point. When we constantly bump, spur, whip etc. the horse will get used to it and become imune to it. Correction needs to be sharp and swift and to the point, then "off" then repeated if we don't get a response; and as said before, each repeat needs to be stronger. If you get even a slight repsonse, back off and praise, then repeat. It's very easy to ride along relaxed with legs bumping,even seat and hands moving. You see this a lot even at higher levels of riding.

Great advice all along here. Boy, we should all ride together; we could really learn a lot from each other. There are some excellent, really experienced riders on this board.
Member:
alden

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 11:28 am:

Hmm,

All the above suggestion are good. But, have you considered selling him to someone that wants a horse that is lazy, quiet, or slow. And getting a horse that fits your riding style?

I have both here and some days I like the fireballs, then there are days I just want to mosey down the trail and not shake up the beer. All horses are different and at the risk of giving them human traits, they all have a personality. Some are right now how high do you want me to jump types. And then there is the tortoise, I'll get there in my own good time types.

I have no problem pushing a horse to perform, but IMHO it is possible to sour either type if we push them too far outside of their comfort zones.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 11:44 am:

Linda, I like a lot of what everyone else has said and just want to add something else.... A lot of times the quiet, bomb proof, 'lazy' horses also have 'respect' issues with regards to us humans. They don't see us as a threat (which is wonderful) but they also sometimes don't respect us as their 'boss'. If this is the case with your horse, you have to make him see you are 'boss' from the moment you put the halter on him and proceed to go tack him up. Make him listen when you lead him. Practice stopping, turning, squaring him up, backing him. Make him walk beside you and not drag behind as most of us tend to do when we get comfy with a horse. Don't let him stand in your 'Hula Hoop' when you stop. Using the Clinton Anderson method, use a long lead or a lunge line and make him move away from you and 'send' him in the opposite direction of your swinging rope end or lunge whip. This gets your horse's attention, wakes them up and commands respect. Do it again before you get on after tacking up. You don't have to make them work a big circle, just make them yield their front end and read end a few times until you see them perk up. Now you start out with your horse listening before you even get on.

I see that you mentioned a dressage whip. With Blue I ended up getting a dressage whip too to teach him to lope. I ride western too so the use of it was merely a temporary training device. He would trot a hundred miles an hour around the arena with me squeezing and kicking, etc. I didn't have the coordination to hold the reins, keep him steered and keep myself from bouncing out of the saddle (posting just made him trot longer btw) and then pick up a rein to pop him on the hind all at the same time. So I added the dressage whip. I like it because it is long enough to reach his flank or butt without me having to let go of the reins to do so. You mention having trouble using it effectively. This like anything else takes practice. If you have to stop him change sides and then start again, there is no harm in doing that. When I lope to the left, I put the whip on the left side because on the right side I am constantly hitting the fence with it. It also seems to get his attention more too because he can see better on the inside. ;-)

Here is what I do with Blue... I first cue for the faster gait with my legs squeezing, then putting on pressure with my spur, squeezing and continue to do it until he decides to react to it. If after a little while he doesn't respond, I intensify my leg pressure and spur pressure, and then if still no response I tap him with the whip on his shoulder or flank. By then he usually gets the idea and I reward him by stopping the pressure and letting him go. So its squeeze, pressure w spur, squeeze harder with spur, whip tap, over and over until now he is finally getting the idea when I just squeeze. I like the word 'nagging' like Diane said. Only you might have to get a little past nagging and more like scolding to get the idea across. LOL

Now, if he tries to break back down to a slower gait, I immediately put pressure on with my spur and give him a whip tap right away as a 'scould' like "I didn't tell you to stop!" Blue is slowly getting the idea. You just have to keep at it, be consistent and repeat, repeat, repeat.

Here are my thoughts on spurs... I have used many different kinds, but my favorite are the ones with the rowls (yes, the spinny things LOL). I also like the ones with the straps as opposed to the slide on kind. You don't have to buy the most expensive pair, just a sturdy pair (the heavier the better to me) that have a reasonable length 'shank' from your heel to your horse's side. You don't want them to be poking on your horse while your legs are relaxed but you also don't want to have to move your leg way back to touch his side either. The reason I like the ones with the rowls as opposed to the ones with just the post, is they seem to be more effective and the fact that they spin makes them less severe since they roll on the horse's side rather than poking him. This is so hard to explain in writing btw. LOL There also seems to be a wider selection of them in different lengths, angles and sizes. Start out with a cheaper pair from your local tack store or Tractor Supply Co. and see how they do. You can always upgrade later. OH and another plus... you sound really cool and cowboyish when you walk. Make sure you 'strut' out of the barn. LOL

Wow this is long... guess I had a lot to add. LOL Let us know how it goes.
Member:
terrido

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 12:26 pm:

:-) Erika, I agree with your request for me to post here so others too can learn. There are some things though that are touchy subjects and better left "un-public".

The short answer is just sometimes horse training can get pretty ugly because it has to. The correct use of whip is one area, and in Linda's case I think it may have to get really ugly to make a difference. Much as others have said, her horse has to start to believe that she really honestly means what she says when she asks for anything. Right now he knows he doesn't have to listen when he chooses not to.

I really do not feel comfortable sharing all I have to say about this in a public forum. It will be difficult enough in a private conversation, if Linda chooses to ask that is.

I feel strongly I can help her, or at least help her make an informed decision to help him become sensitive again.
Member:
erika

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 1:05 pm:

Thanks for the explanation, Terrie. I can understand what you're saying. But I don't think what you will say is all that different from what Jennifer and I have said.

I agree that a horse that is not responding isn't necessarily doing it out of laziness, but out of disrespect. Jennifer, your remarks about it being a case of disrespect across the board sure make sense to me.

Linda, if I am correct, this is the same horse that took you on your scary ride into the arena fence a few years back? Another clue to the respect issue, IMHO. Try to think like an alpha mare with your horse--the alpha wouldn't put up with his reluctance to move without a BIG correction!

I fear some will think I am too heavy handed, but I think you would get faster results, with LESS whipping, spurring, etc. if you use your whip as a punishment for not responding to your leg. He knows by this time that leg means "forward", and he knows that a tap from the whip means the same, but he is choosing not to move out from it. Alpha mare and I would give him something to move about.

That said, once he gets the message, lots of transitions will help him stay attentive and quicker off your leg.

There! I wrote a book this time!!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 2:42 pm:

As I was posting my suggestion to really get after him with the lunge whip from the ground, I had thoughts of others seeing me as this crazy woman running after my horses with whip in hand, yelling "Ya, YA, YA get up there now!" And ending up with a wild eyed snorting panting horse, me collapsed on the ground, lol!

I think one of the negative things with all the emphasis on "natural horsemanship" is that people don't always get that asking nicely don't work with all horses. A whip or spurs, they are just tools. Have you ever saw bite marks on a horse from another alpha herd member? Apparently asking nicely didn't work, and a quick response was needed, so the teeth came out!

So Terrie, I know you have wonderful ideas, you've helped me, privately, with Tango a few times, and I wish you'd post the "ugly" here for all to see.

Of course I respect your decision not to say more if you are not comfortable.

When I get around to updating my progress on Tango, I'll post the ugly too, and I do expect to get some flack from it, but that's o.k., and another subject I'll leave for now.

Good luck with this, let us know what ends up working the best so we can all learn from it.
Member:
terrido

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 2:43 pm:

*sigh* ok, ok. Erika I do NOT agree about using the whip as a punishment, NEVER EVER do that! That is not at all what I meant either.

OK, so Linda, fwiw.... sometimes you have to put on your "I REALLY MEAN IT" attitude, or call it a game face. Not anger, not frustration... just matter of fact, period.

First a huge word of caution!! Pick your battles, and pick them wisely!! Once begun there is no turning back, or you are just teaching, or reinforcing, that you don't mean what you ask for when you ask for it.

I highly recommend you find a professional to assist you the first time, or couple, unless you are certain you can carry it out yourself. It takes a backbone, steel nerves, strength and above all TACT!!!

I can of course and often do write novellas about stuff. haha This may be no different, and yet I know in this shortened version much will be left out. So I still implore you to ask me via email.

Begin on the ground, with a dressage whip, a good stiff one, not a flimsy one!! You will ask the horse to move hindquarters by use of whip touching only. The key is that you do not let up until you get a response - ANY response, then instantly you stop. Begin small, light. It is literally touch, touch the whip end to the horse; then touch-touch-touch, now increase the force behind the touch until he responds - again ANY response and stop. wait, let him think a moment, go to the other side and do the same thing again.

Repeat the above, going from side to side, he should begin to respond to a much lighter whip touch. Ideally you get to the point where you raise the whip end and he is responding. This is where you have completed lesson one on application of the whip.

Once he has learned that you can do this on the ground, you repeat under saddle. He may be a bit more uncooperative under saddle, so just be prepared. And I mean be prepared. It may help here especially to have a professional on the ground to assist.

You absolutely cannot hurt a horse with a dressage whip! Think about how horses play together and then think about how much muscle power you have in applying a whip as hard as you possibly can. ;] Trust me, you don't have near the strength another horse has.

The key here is to not back off. You cannot stop or let up in effort/force until you get a response the first (few?) times. And this is where most fail. It takes strength and effort to keep at it until the horse responds.

This is one lesson I learned long ago that really stuck with me. First time it was really ugly and made me cry. I thought I was really hurting the horse. But I learned I didn't, what I had done was show him that I mean what I ask, very quickly and I do mean very quickly he changed his attitude toward me. That little bugger and I managed to really progress to high levels together because whatever I asked for he gave - willingly and happily. To this day I am the only person that has managed to get this from him because everyone else gives up. He was called the lesson donkey for a good reason.

I had to repeat this with my Friesian mare once. She had gotten complacent about my asking her to move forward. So we had a whip application lesson one day. That was truly horrid, I felt really badly afterwards, I really did, but she knows now I mean it when I ask for something and I know if she doesn't do what I ask for instantly it's because she cannot do it, not that she just doesn't want to. I know I failed her in preparation and I start again is all.

In both these cases I had to teach the horse that I wasn't going to back down, that I mean it when I ask for something and I expect a response. Any response, you can always work to getting the response you want once they give you something. :-)

My hesitation in posting this is because to someone watching it may well look like you are beating your horse, abusing it. And maybe it is a form of abuse. Would you spank a child? Course we do that as a punishment after the fact, so it's a bit different there. But again spanking is different than beating. Having been raised with spanking and looking at today's kids, I think we could use a bit more of this type of punishment maybe. ;] I turned out just fine, I was never beaten, but I was definitely spanked.

Proper use of whip is not a punishment and never should be applied that way. What I am talking about here is in the asking, not after the fact. You are simply asking the horse to move it's legs. Once they do it's very easy to get them to move without having to use the whip or being able to just use a literal touch of the whip. - and always, always, always multiple touches!!! Never use just one sharp touch - that's just plain rude!

I use only whip touches during our warm up, so that I can remain fully relaxed, I don't need to use my legs at all, so they are able to completely relax. It reminds Bella that she is to respond to the whip touch, and I play a game of how lightly can I touch her and get a response? I barely place the whip against her and off she goes right away, all I do is barely lay it on her and maybe then vibrate it a bit - that's it.

And of course, duh, see I knew this would leave much out! After the initial lesson, you need to also work to be sure the horse is not afraid of the whip. In between or at the end, this is imperative. The horse should never fear the whip, just learn to listen to it. It is a tool, that's all.
Member:
terrido

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 3:07 pm:

Ack, I need to add a bit. First, and this too is important, PRAISE when you get any response! Praise more when you get the response you want. So in between the whip application teaching, use the praises to teach too.

And for those of you that have a better way, please share it!!

And as to my reference to spanking I was just thinking of the show Super Nanny. A time out is used, and not a spanking and yet it's the "sticking with it until they respond" routine! Same thing. If you watch those types of shows it's exactly the same thing, the parents have allowed the kids to rule, they have backed down too soon, so the kids know they can 'break them eventually'. That's what got them into that position in the first place, and why it looks pretty ugly at first and can take so long. Often it may take a couple hours the first time or two for the parents, say placing the child back in the time out spot over and over and over ad naseum. Again here, no anger, no frustration, no emotion is to be shown, no words, just actions!! And as long as the parent sticks to it and doesn't let up until the child responds in the correct way (by staying put!) it works like it is supposed to. The child learns quickly Mom and Dad mean it! And this is what makes the difference. And yes it does eventually teach them to respect their parents more I think.
Member:
erika

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 3:38 pm:

Terrie, here is what I said:
"I fear some will think I am too heavy handed, but I think you would get faster results, with LESS whipping, spurring, etc. if you use your whip as a punishment for not responding to your leg."

Replace the word "punishment" with "reinforcement" and I think we are both saying the same thing. If you consider spanking reinforcement, well I guess that's the same thing I call punishment. But done without anger or cruelty, I don't see any problem with a strong whack to tell a horse I mean business. The timing of it, I suppose, makes it "reinforcement" rather than "punishment". Wrong word,perhaps, but that's what I meant.

As Angie said, I don't mean beat the crap out of your horse, but a sharp enough strike that he doesn't ignore the "alpha".

Now I see why you were reluctant to post, Terrie. People, perhaps even you, are quick to judge on semantics. For the record, I am not one to BEAT a horse EVER! I don't believe "reinforcement" when the horse ignores me constitutes abuse. I think it is far more cruel to let a horse get spoiled and difficult to handle. We all know where those types end up.
Member:
terrido

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 4:03 pm:

:-) Ahhh yes semantics. Erika we are in complete agreement! whew....
Member:
amara

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 4:16 pm:

Linda,
I know you mentioned you believed your legs were steady enough for spurs, but could you post some pics or some videos of you riding? SOooo many times I've seen people have problems getting a "go" on their horse, and describing the same problems that you have, and doing the same things you do, but its their position that has brought it on, even with people who are fairly accomplished riders. once the position was fixed, putting the "go" back on the horse was much simpler, and sometimes, it just happened automatically. I am NOT saying you are not an accomplished rider, but since most of us arent lucky enough to be getting regular riding lessons, its easy to let ourselves fall out of position... he may still need some "tuning up", but there may be other reasons for it..
FWIW
Mel
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 6:10 pm:

Terrie and Erika, I thank you both for posting your above comments and suggestions. I very much agree with them.

I also agree with equating disciplining horses to kids. If you let them get away with little stuff, it turns into big stuff in no time. And yes, to the untrained eye, a passerby etc. a good spank with a whip or the end of a lead may look like you are beating your horse. I have seen uninformed people freak out at horse shows etc. when a horse gets a spank.

But in my opinion, here is what really IS ignorant and cruel: NOT disciplining your horse. An undisciplined horse that runs off with you, walks on you, ignores you, etc. is just an accident waiting to happen. Someone's kid or wife or whatever gets hurt on this horse and the parent or hubby dumps it somewhere because they are scared of it or can't stand the site of it. That horse could find himself on the sale lot, ending up God knows where or truly getting a real beating from it's next owner. That is what's cruel... letting a horse get to the point where his rider (and maybe himself) get hurt and then ends up in a new home that he is mistreated or neglected or even sent to the slaughter house.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 8:42 pm:

Oh, wow, this is a little overwhelming. Where to start . . .

Angie, I do lunge him and he does get lazy at times. I don't really hit him and I think he knows it. I can pressure him and he will move faster, but when I use the lunge whip on him it is more of a pop than a smack. So that does sound like a good place to begin.

I have done a lot of Clinton Anderson's training on Cutter. Erika has a good memory. Cutter did take me on a scarey ride a couple years ago but since then we have made big progress. On the ground, he will move his hindquarters if I point with my finger. He is respectful and stays out of my space. I always do groundwork before riding and use Clinton's sending exercise with a stick as a regular part of my pre-mount work.

On his back, I am always working on being a leader. My personality is pretty layed back so for me that makes the leadership thing a conscious decision. I wish it came more natural, but mostly I have to think of it all the time. So what your comments make me realize is Cutter has found an opportunity and taken it. (The little worm).

Aside from my lack of firmness, another problem may be equipment. My dressage whip is wimpy. Terrie, you describe a whip that means business and mine is not like that.

So what happens is I ask for trot, he grudgingly makes a half-hearted movement, and I try to back up my request with this wimpy whip which does not intimidate him in the least. He is not getting the "reinforcement/punishment" for his lack of response. Therefore, he keeps doing it, and maybe is getting even more lazy.

New dressage whip and spurs on the shopping list.

I am going to the stable tomorrow to ride so I will let you know how it goes. Even without the equipment change, I can work on being more firm in my request. I mean business, and I mean NOW!

Fran, Jennifer, very helpful comments. Alden, I don't think Cutter's problem is that bad. I have no desires of showing or making him be anything other than the best he can be. I just don't think he is working to his potential.

Melissa, re. the video, my husband has volunteered to do this. Not sure if that will happen tomorrow, but perhaps in the coming weeks.

Thanks!

Linda
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 8:46 pm:

Oh, and P.S. Jennifer - can't wait to strut around in them spurs that jingle jangle jingle. Too cool!
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 12:01 am:

This is a great thread. Thanks for asking this question Linda. I think that posting a video or having an instructor watch you ride is a really good idea. Sometimes a rider can be sending a very subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) whoa signal that is completely out of the rider's awareness.

When that's the case (not saying that is happening here but offering it as a possibility) the horse is being told "whoa" and then when he is told to "go" in no uncertain terms with a crop or spurs the horse gets confused and upset.

Has your horse been ridden with spurs before Linda? If he is not used to them be prepared for a reaction of some kind. It might be the reaction that you want, ie, forward movement, but some horses will react by kicking out or bucking, so be careful.

Also, when you are walking on the ground enjoying those jingle jangle spurs, be sure to keep your feet far enough apart so that you don't accidentally "hook" them together and fall flat on your face. Guess how I learned that lesson!
Member:
mientjie

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 12:41 am:

Have you considered using the techniques suggested by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling www.hempfling.com or Roger Taylor lessons on www.classicaldressage.net ?
These might help you a lot even though you don't do dressage.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 9:58 am:

HA ha, I agree with being careful with the spurs..also speaking from experience! Tried to use mine riding last night, but they don't fit on my new boots.

I think Jo Ann may be onto something...think really carefully about your breathing, body language, energy. I love to work with a horse having them go forward by lifting my energy up and forward, and stopping them by stopping my energy. And reversing it to back. It's so cool when it works. Not that is always works, but it's fun to strive for. If you can do that without legs or reins, it does help when asking for more forward movement, and if IF you have any fears that he is picking up on, it might help you too. And like Jo Ann says, I am not saying you do. I think all horses pick up so much more than we suspect. And some of the smartest ones are the ones that also tune us out the fastest if they don't get clear messages.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 9:58 am:

Lea-Anne - thanks for posting those links. I will get to them when I have a little more time. I have read a book by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling - pretty impressive what he achieves.

Now a little funny story about those jingling spurs.
My husband and I were involved in starting a riding club in Tsumeb, Namibia. He bought an off-the-track thoroughbred gelding - I had a young thoroughbred gelding I was training. My husband has ridden both english and western, and had an english saddle and bridle. One time he thought he needed to put on his big old western spurs. How that gelding of his danced and pranced!! That jingling was just too much for him. My husband got off, walked him back to the barn and never used those spurs again .......

Just in case - if your horse is not used to spurs, introduce him slowly.

Lilo
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 10:59 am:

I completely agree about using caution w spurs! If you or your horse are not used to spurs, as with anything new, always introduce them slowly. Please, please don't 'forget' you have them on. LOL If you are used to pounding away on your horse's side out of habit and forget you have spurs on, it could be an mistake you won't soon forget. LOL

Linda, I am so glad to hear you are on the right track and have done all of that ground work, like what Clinton Anderson teaches. Getting your horse to yield, etc. is a huge accomplishment. You just need to be a little more 'bossy' on your horse's back, with some good equipment and you will be well on your way I think. LOL at the jingle jangling.

My show mare has been ridden with spurs pretty much since the beginning (the right way) and is so trained and sooo sensitive in the sides that I don't even have to do anything but move my foot the tiniest bit and she performs whatever maneuver I ask for. She has about 5 'buttons' on each side and even a brake pedal when I change the weight in the stirrups. (I can ride her bridleless if I chose to.) Anyhow, here is the thing... even though my spurs never actually touch her sides, she knows if I am NOT wearing them. (I guess because she can't hear the jingling.) She is too dang smart for her own good. Without spurs on, she rides totally different and tries to pull all sorts of shenanigans with me and becomes 'lazy'. So that jingle jangle does actually come in handy. hehe

Oh and I too, speak from experience to use caution when walking w spurs on!

Happy Easter everyone! I hope you all get to ride today!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 11:34 am:

Jennifer, Mikey, our black stallion, is the same way. Funny. You don't have the use the back up, just let them know it is there "in case."

English spurs are much easier to use than western and might be a good place to start if you aren't used to spurs. Not so easy to trip over when walking, either! And, guess you all know not to scooch down with your spurs on!
Member:
terrido

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 2:43 pm:

Linda, I think you are well on your way to finding the 'key' to get him moving better. Alot of it is attitude, once he knows you do really mean it.

I don't look at riding as being leader-follower so much as a partnership. If I am leading then I want my horse to cooperate and go with me, but there are times when the horse should lead. I try to allow my horse to make some decisions, I always allow mistakes and then try to ride it more correct, etc. It can help them want to work with you. Kind of a discipline thing for your mind when you ride I guess. For me if I am just hacking around that's when Bella will want to be more "in charge" and will tend to not listen to me as intently. ;) If I have a plan though and I focus on what we are doing, she will glue her attention to me much better, then when it wanders a bit she comes right back with me quickly.

But yes for the whip, unfortunately finding a nice stiff one isn't easy. I use Fleck, and have found one with a shaft that's a bit thicker and is a little stiffer than most. You want it to be flexible and yet have substance too. I wouldn't recommend of course trying to use your "stick", not sure what CA calls them. The fiberglass "golf club shaft" they are normally made from is of course way too stiff to use for this purpose.

It sounds like you have not been assertive enough in your asking, so yup he's got your number. You need to convince him otherwise I think. But please have a professional there to assist you. When we got this message through to Bella is was actually pretty frightening for m on her at the time. I was not the one applying the whip it was my trainer. He didn't want her to immediately associate the lesson to me (long story there). All I had to do was sit and hang on, and at times that wasn't so easy. At the end of that lesson that day, about 30 minutes after he'd done the whip training part, at one point he simply stepped behind her no whip in hand and she bolted! She only went 5 strides cause I instantly asked her to slow up, but it was not an easy lesson all the way around. However since that one lesson she has been attentive. I think I had to once after that get a bit more assertive than I like, but not even a third of at my trainer had to do. And today if I get past a touch literally, she is just saying she is tired. But she'll go instantly then. She is a silly girl and super expressive, but also is very sensitive.

Jennifer I envy you being able to ride bridleless, we are almost there. I can take her up and down from halt thru trot and back, and do transitions within the gaits just from my seat and not touching the reins, but to actually try totally sans bridle?? *shudder* haha Haven't gotten canter yet, we are still working on her balance again. Now if I could only master this a bit better sans stirrups.... I do still rely a bit too much on stirrup pressure, but we are getting there. Practice, practice, practice! At least she is light and soft. I haven't messed that up yet.

Good luck Linda!!
New Member:
etiology

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 3:01 pm:

Since the summer of nineteen-forty and six, I've only worked with about 50-60 horses, so I do not consider myself an expert by any means. Although I only had 'problems' with one that we sadly found out later on had severe neurological damage.

Of that 50-60, I've never had to use a whip or spurs when mounted for 'impulsion.' Creating impulsion, (that is forward motion and the desire to perform when mounted) was never a problem.

But then I never was comfortable with the 'alpha/showing them who is boss' methods either.

If we consider all social/instinctual/environmental aspects and needs of the domesticated horse, (making their life and 'work' as enjoyable as possible) there is actually no need for whips or spurs. After all, the mounted relationship always mirrors the ground relationship.

cheers,


Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 3:27 pm:

I don't know, true lazy horses seem to be far and few in between(but they do exist), I have only owned one "lazy" horse an arab at that! Some horses(very few) are just naturally quiet and lazy. She just didn't have much get up and go. She was alert, willing, but lazy for no apparent reason(and I did not enjoy riding a lazy horse for the most part.). I have seen "man made" dullness and the "quiet,lazy" horse is not the same beast as that. I could have spurred and whipped that horse for days and she still would have been lazy!!(of course I didn't) She was made into the beginners horse and worked out fine for that, it was just her personality, was like that from birth pretty much.

I think you have to determine if it is just your horses personality or he has you buffaloed...there are days I would pay to have a lazy horse, but over all I prefer a forward horse.
Member:
stek

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 6:32 pm:

Ahh yes Diane, there is a big difference between the truly lazy horse and one who has become dull to the aides. We board one such lazy horse, and he is quite responsive when he knows you mean it. But his rear end is constantly covered with bite marks from not getting his butt out of the way of other horses. You would think after 2 years with the same herd he would learn, but nope, not yet!
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 7:33 pm:

I had a chance to ride this afternoon and what a difference. Your advice was spot on (as always!)

I looked closer at my dressage whip. I even used it on myself while I was on the ground. It gave me a bee sting so I know it has some feel to it. I do think it might be too short, however. While mounted, it seemed I hit my own leg because it wasn't long enough. I then tried holding it right at the very end and it seemed better.

The big difference is that I USED it. As you recommended, whenever he did not listen to my leg I gave him a pop with the whip. He had one chance to listen and that was it. The biggie is I was consistent about it, which I don't think I have been before. I found some errors in my own judgement and this helped me correct them. I realized it's more like giving him a spanking for not do what he's told. In that context, it worked great.

The real test came at trot. Now Cutter has a wonderful little western jog trot and he is fine doing that all day long. To get him up to a posting trot is like pulling teeth. So today, I gave him the pop when he did not respond to my leg. He did nothing. I realized, I've done that before with the same response. Today however, I did not stop there. I reached back and gave him a good jockey-smack. GET GOING, NOW!!! He did. . . wow, I am thinking, this is cool! I had to do it once more and that is all. The rest of the day he trotted like a champ!

It made me realize this all started with the posting trot. I have even posted on HA before about my difficulties there. This boy got my number and figured out I wouldn't back up my request so he quit moving faster than a jog. From there, he started trying it in other ways and things began to escalate.

Thank you so much for helping me with this problem. I do want to post a video in the future and ask for your help with my riding, but I will do that in another thread.

You are all the greatest! Happy Easter to everyone, and to your horses too.

Linda

P.S. While riding, I thought about the spurs. I don't think I am ready for them. Thanks for you excellent advice on that too.
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 11:10 am:

WOW Linda! Good for you! How wonderful to hear you had a breakthrough! I am so excited for you. And so nice that it didn't take long for your horse to figure out you meant business.

And if he is listening to your leg then no reason to get spurs. Just something to note.... if in the future, you decide that you don't want to ride w the whip, there is a possiblity that your horse will know you aren't carrying it and try to pull the shenanigans again. This is where picking up the end of your rein and a pop on the shoulder or hind end helps. (assuming your are riding w split reins that is) That way he knows, "Hey just cuz she doesn't have the stick, doesn't mean I don't have to listen." hehe

Looking forward to seeing the video.
Member:
erika

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 11:16 am:

Charles, would you care to share with us what you've learned in dealing with this type of problem? I for one would be very interested. You obviously have a lot of experience and it would be great to hear your point of view on this.

Of course anytime there is a peaceful resolution it is preferable. Hope you'll post.
Erika
New Member:
etiology

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 1:18 pm:

Hi Erica,
Actually, 'what I've learned' started over thirty years ago, (and as many thousands of hours of research, study and observation/interactive experimentation) and concerned not any specific one, but all 'bad behavioral horse problems.'

Besides gleaning the works of every equine ethologist and equine research scientist in the world, it took me places horse owners are seldom, if ever found, (Le Doux and Panksepp were only a few of many).

The basic facts were simple.

#1. The horse as a species has not changed mentally, emotionally or instinctually in thousands of years.

#2. After roughly six thousand years of 'practice,' we still to this day have a plethora of behavioral issues and 'bad horse problems' with Equus Caballus. In fact in making a cursory check with a large number of horse rescues a few years ago, it seems that the number of horse owners giving up or selling their horses due to behavioral issues has disproportionately grown the last 25-30 years.

#3. This would possibly lead the average person to logically come to the conclusion that Equus Caballus is an extremely cantankerous, adversarial species.

#4. My own personal experience did not coincide with that presumptive conclusion as I had found this species to be the most honest, caring forthright creature God put on the face of the earth.

What I found went well beyond the old adage concerning a lack of mental acuity, (doing the same thing over and over but expecting different and/or better results). I found that the two greatest enemies that make the life of the domesticated horse as chaotic and miserable as possible are ignorance, (a lack of knowledge not to be confused with stupidity) and tradition, (which may include a goodly dash of speciesism).

These were so deeply imbedded in our 'horsemanship subculture,' that even the most loving, caring horse owner could inadvertently/unknowingly make it as difficult or impossible as they could for their horse to 'be the horse they wanted or expected him to be.'

Thus I sought some alternative paradigm to our present day management, care and 'training' that would prevent all those behavioral issues and 'bad horse problems' rather than applying traditional/ad hoc 'cures' to the very problems we created in the first place.

While this alternative paradigm deals somewhat with the intrinsic value of the heart and spirit of the Horse, it also gives credence to common sense, critical thinking and highly acclaimed equine empirical studies and documented research.


kind regards,


Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 2:29 pm:

So Chuck, if I am understanding you correctly, the key to your program is to prevent behavior problems from beginning. That should be everyone's goal. Sometimes things get past us, we are only human after all. In my situation, I would have loved to prevent the problem. Since that did not happen, it was essential to CORRECT it. If there is a way to correct laziness without using a whip, I am very interested to hear this.

My hope is that setting my boundaries with Cutter now, will enable me to not have to use the whip in the future. Is that not true?

Thanks,
Linda
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 3:31 pm:

Linda, so glad you got the positive results you were looking for. I think both you and your horse will be happy to have this settled. Of course I can't speak for Chuck but I think your understanding is right on the money.

I think Chuck is presenting the ideal we all strive for in our horsemanship. If every horse is handled perfectly from birth, and every horseman handled horses consistently and with perfect timing, it would be a different world.

I do think you'd still see some natural variation (some horses would still be lazy, some very forward, some would be leaners, some very light etc) because at least in my experience they do have different personalities. Maybe I am anthropomorphizing to some degree, but that's the only way I can account for horses with the same background going through the same training program responding differently.

I don't see anything wrong with establishing respect and taking a leadership role with the horses I work with. This doesn't mean I beat them, it just means they know to watch me for instruction, just as they do the herd boss. Horses in a herd, while friendly, are not 'nice' to each other, and I'm pretty sure there isn't a democracy at work. The herd boss gets his/her job by being a confident leader, and many times a day will 'correct' horses lower on the totem pole that challenge him/her.

I will also infinitely love on a horse when they try, and in my training go as slow as they need to go to be comfortable and understand what is asked. There is a big difference between a horse that is being evasive and one who is confused about what you want. The key is discerning the two. I think 95% of the time the mistake is the handler's, but I won't go so far as to say our horses never have their own agenda and aren't sometimes trying to train us!
Member:
terrido

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 2:34 pm:

Chuck you've done it again. HAHA

Ok everyone, I am one of Chuck's students. His ideal is to prevent problems before they happen of course, but we all have horses that we didn't start from the beginning of their life. ;]

What his program does is help to "correct" past issues. Actually what it does is create an incredible trust and bond between horse and human unlike any other method I have run across. Normal behaviorial issues just go away.

I'll admit to not doing his program fully and as completely as I should with my Bella. And I am considering doing just that this summer, starting completely over with her and doing it the right way. Still the little bit and the manner I have used his "method" with her has made a huge difference overall. I know this, my trainer has mentioned it numerous times, drives him crazy because she wants, she SO wants, to take good care of me... actually it's also helped her be the quintessential school master because she will take the utmost care of anyone on her back. I can put anyone on her and know that they are safe with her. (I unfortunately have other issues and demons I need to face again with my own fears.)

BUT I do have a proof in the pudding pony of Chuck's program. The one that majorly counted in my books!! My Tb, Owen. I was at wits end when I found Chuck and I can honestly say his method is the one that worked and made the difference with Owen. It literally worked a miracle there. Changed him from a dangerous "man killer" to a horse anyone is safe around now. He now trusts people, anyone, not just me. That's the beauty of this program it creates a trust in all humans, well unless of course they exude something that set a horse off, then they would just ask to please not be near that person. That's what Owen will do now. Instead of charging to try to kill a person like that he will simply move away from them. No threat, no laid back ears or snarls or anything, he just walks away quietly.

It was literally as if I had thrown a light switch on in his brain. He went from being challenging and combatant every day to being willing and soft literally overnight. Owen's quick progress may not be typical, but he and I had been together for about 4 or 5 years prior to Chuck and we had a fairly good relationship already, it just wasn't where I knew it could be, I just wasn't sure how to get there.

NONE of the so called "natural" methods worked with Owen. You cannot be an alpha or try to force him to do anything, that absolutely results in a major battle. Today he'll happily and willingly do whatever I ask him. So I can 'lead' without being his alpha. Funny thing is with Owen I only got half way through Chuck's program. ;] With him I cannot complete it because he refuses - still - to move fully sideways. He does everything else happily, but alas he will not move his legs that way.

With Bella it was never a full on application of his program. I have toyed with starting over, and since it gets so stinking hot here in summer too hot to think about really riding, I think it would be a great time to start over and do it the right way with her. And still it's made a difference with her. I can only imagine how much better it will be in the future, besides I am dying to learn how to do his full program.

I am totally sold on his program!! I'd pay ten times what he asks to have the kind of relationship I have with them both because of Chuck. Truly. Unlike other programs this one will work with any horse every time. The results would be the same every time, if "done" correctly ;) So often I hear "I take some from this person and some from that person and I combine it because not everything will work with every horse...." No so with Chuck's program, his really does work with any horse, every time, if you just follow what he tells you to do.

I call Owen my 'Poster child' for Chuck's program, even though technically he never 'graduated'. I will forever be grateful for having found Chuck!!
Member:
amara

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 2:48 pm:

Chuck,
Sounds like what you do is very similar to what I do...A lot of people don't see some of the little things as a problem - or a symptom more accurately i guess...To me, there are many a "perfect" horse that need to be started over, because I believe all "training problems" are a result of problems that we - the human - created in the horse's earlier experiences..
I remember when my "light bulb" came on several years ago, and everything you said is the same thing that I now teach...
Mel
Member:
dove2

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:02 pm:

OK, so tell us how much and how to sign onto Chuck's program.
Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:18 pm:

Terrie,

As a student of Chuck's maybe you can answer the question: using his method, what do you do with a horse who is good in other ways, hasn't been mishandled etc, but is just a lazy lump about moving forward and would prefer to nap rather than work?

Would it be acceptable to give them a swat on the rump with a crop to settle the matter, or is there another method specific to this problem you'd use?

I realize the 'complete' solution might involve many other aspects of the way the horse is being handled, but let's assume this problem exists in a vacuum just for the sake of discussion.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:26 pm:

So Chuck, if I am understanding you correctly, the key to your program is to prevent behavior problems from beginning.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Partly, yes. My personal contribution may an integral part of the program, but there are certainly quite a few other contributors and factets.to be considered.

For example, there's the by Cloud series documentary, ('Cloud, Wild Stallion of the Rockies' and 'Cloud, The Wild Stallion Returns') by Emmy Award winning filmmaker, Ginger Kathrens at:

https://www.thecloudfoundation.org/donationrewards.html

If all horse owners just viewed those two videos before purchasing or 'training' their horse, they would have a much greater understanding of the animal they are dealing with than anything offered by our present day 'trainers,' (including a classic example of the how strong the emotional attachment can be between two horses). Of course, some still believe that horse don't have emotions and feelings, (or sadly they prefer to ignore that fact).

I'm told there is a free version of both on the Internet, but would much rather see a worthy cause aided, (The Cloud Foundation).



Then there's Dr. Francis Burton's 'Chapter Seven,' also available on the Internet, (free) at:

https://www.gla.ac.uk/external/EBF/uhcc7.html


If all horse owners read that chapter before purchasing or 'training' their horse, it would also give them a much deeper understanding of the animal they are dealing with than anything offered by our present day 'trainers,' (especially spooking and bolting in regard to their sensory systems/digestive, etc).


Then there's Beck's "Horse Behavior' E-book, (third edition). Again, if all horse owners read that chapter before purchasing or 'training' their horse, it would eliminate a great deal of misunderstanding and 'unintentional consequences.'


Another absolute essential is McDonnell and Mills, "The Domestic Horse."



Just reading/viewing those alone would prevent the vast majority of misunderstanding that trick us into believing there is such a thing as a 'bad horse,' (which of , is a nonexistent creature because every horse ever born was born a perfect horse). It is only our lack of knowledge, tradition and ego that make him seem that way.

Of course there are more, such as nutrition;

https://www.safergrass.org/

And hoof care, (barefoot is beneficial but not for all horses).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



That should be everyone's goal.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree 100%! Unfortunately, it isn't. Many horse owners seem more interested in a 'quick fix' to one particular problem rather than finding the underlying cause of not only that problem, but others that are sure to surface later.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Sometimes things get past us, we are only human after all.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would think that being 'human,' (and the one in control) should mandate a personal responsibility beyond the 'Five Freedoms.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



In my situation, I would have loved to prevent the problem. Since that did not happen, it was essential to CORRECT it. If there is a way to correct laziness without using a whip, I am very interested to hear this.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'd be happy to explain but we're 'getting a bit ahead of ourselves.' I will try to get back later for sure but right now am a bit bogged down with garden and 'outside work.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


My hope is that setting my boundaries with Cutter now, will enable me to not have to use the whip in the future. Is that not true?

Thanks,
Linda


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have no idea whether you will have to use the whip again or not. But if that were true, then horses in a domesticated herd would only have ONE confrontation each and then would never have to use discomfort / physical punishment, (or the intimidation thereof) ever again to assert their herd rank.

If it were me, as I said, I would prefer to enjoy the benefits of creating impulsion from within.


I think part of our perceptual difference is you may be thinking in terms of a specific behavior modification, while I am attempting a perhaps deeper, far-reaching overall approach to the human/equine relationship itself.

Which may simply be 'different strokes for different folks!


kind regards,


Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
etiology

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:28 pm:

For some reason, I can't get the bold-italic-fonts to work.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
etiology

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:36 pm:

Melissa, that's is SO good to hear!

As I said"

What I found went well beyond the old adage concerning a lack of mental acuity, (doing the same thing over and over but expecting different and/or better results). I found that the two greatest enemies that make the life of the domesticated horse as chaotic and miserable as possible are ignorance, (a lack of knowledge not to be confused with stupidity) and tradition, (which may include a goodly dash of speciesism).

These were so deeply imbedded in our 'horsemanship subculture,' that even the most loving, caring horse owner could inadvertently/unknowingly make it as difficult or impossible as they could for their horse to 'be the horse they wanted or expected him to be.'


For what it's worth, I had countless 'light bulbs go off' until I saw the final truth.

"I have net the enemy, and he is me!"

Email me sometime if you care to at:

naturalhorse101@aol.com

kind regards,
Member:
terrido

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:36 pm:

CB, not sure why the font stuff and 'bold' won't work for you.... sorry can't help ya, it's probably something beyond your computer. ;] (HI!!! Terrie waves)

As to the whip question, yes occasionally for a 'lazy horse' I still see nothing wrong with the use of whip - but again and I cannot stress this enough - applied properly. You may find though that by working on relationship the whip is unnecessary - or not. As Chuck points out in a herd horses are 'pushed around' all the time. Our little 'herd of two' isn't much different, we all have our days, eh?

I agree fully that there may be a better means, but it will depend on your situation. Some horses will happily go and some just won't. I think if you are one to say 'I really don't want to have to use a whip or spurs...' then look for other inhibitors possibly. Like your position as mentioned earlier, the saddle fit, bit YOUR hands, etc. Possibly start dabbling in energy movement, etc. there are many factors that can come into play.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:40 pm:

Hi Terrie!

(Or should I say, "Hi Stranger?"

Very sincerely appreciate your praise but really didn't want to use the forum for a 'marketing platform.'

Although I do very much enjoy the exchange of ideas and beliefs!

And now I really REALLY MUST run!!!!!!!

BBL

lol

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
terrido

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 3:50 pm:

OK, to answer Dove2's question...

Price? Well you'll have to ask Chuck, cause I am not sure what he is charging today.

You can find his contact info off his site:
https://www.thenaturalhorse.org/

Don't faint when you get in there, there's way more information in it than many want right up front. haha He's great with explaining things in detail, something I have had to learn to do. And you all know how detailed I can be now, eh??

He is super to work with and a huge wealth of knowledge. And again I stand behind his program 100%.

OK, if you promise to ignore the chubby lady, here is a short video I did last summer about the relationship we have: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctwl48OB3Qc

(Audio is bad so you can turn your volume down.)
Bella is funny she wanted cuddles then treats when I showed her "no more - all gone" she decided she'd go off on her own, Owen as always chose to stay with me. He'd rather just hang with me than do anything else - still. He will always be my number one love, he is a very special boy.

And yes Chuck he still loves to bow. For everyone else, his bowing began as a fluke, I ran out of things to teach him at one point and thought to try teaching him to bow. It took only 5 steps and about 5 minutes and he was doing nice deep bows. I liked them so much that the next day when I asked him to do something I knew he wasn't thrilled about doing, he offered a bow. Goof. He still will bow at least three times if I walk anywhere near his left shoulder whether I have cookies with me or not. He just does it because he knows I like it!!
Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 4:50 pm:

Thanks for the answer Terrie, I agree there are many other things to consider and usually the problem is a combination of many :-)

Chuck, I agree with the vast majority of what you say save one thing: I don't agree that every single horse is inherently good. In working with upwards of 500 different horses in my lifetime, I have met exactly one that I would consider a genuinely bad horse.

The vast majority of horses I've known have been utterly sweet, and I've worked with some rude critters that bit, kicked, stomped etc. due to prior mishandling of one kind or another. Most will avoid conflict when they can, some will pick a fight in self defense. I consider that a fault of the human, not the horse.

But the one exception is a horse that after 6 months of kind consistent handling literally tried to kill me when I had my back turned. The boy had a screw loose, that's all I can say. His owner had warned me that he had injured other people, and I thought 'they just don't understand him'. (Much as you are probably saying to yourself now.) For the 6 months leading up to that day, he was your average 'horse with history', but made steady progress. Then one day his eyes went blank and he snapped. He 'came to' not too long after and was back to his usual self, but make no mistake, he had some real mental problems.

Granted one out of 500 is a very small number, and I used to think the same as you, that there are no bad horses. If I hadn't had that experience I would probably still think that way. But as they say, live and learn... Knowing that horse hasn't spoiled me on the rest, it just taught me to never say never ;)

I hope you never meet your 'one bad horse'!
Member:
amara

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 9:33 pm:

Chuck,
I think for me, that "lightbulb" was when I realized that just about everything I learned in traditional horsemanship I had to throw out the window and start again... a painful moment, but a lightbulb none the less..Sometimes the anthropomorphizing love that we give dogs and horses can be the WORST thing we can do for them...

It's not just about not missing behavior problems as they crop up, but knowing that even the littlest things you do can create that behavior problem, even something as "simple" as haltering or approaching a horse...heck, there's an appropriate way to clean a paddock around a horse!

Linda, not everyone is going to want to go the route that Chuck or Terrie or I have done...and whether or not you need to or want to use a whip will be decided by your personal relationship with your horse...proper use of a whip hardly makes you a horrible person... as long as you use it appropriately, you can teach your horse to work better with you..
Member:
etiology

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 10:47 am:

GOOD GRIEF!!!!!

We haven't used that old website for a long time!!!!!!!

The present one is 'under construction' and will be finished Friday.

It's at:

https://www.thenaturalhorse.org/index0408.html


BBL


Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 1:51 pm:

Chuck,
Thanks for your insight. All people's situations are different and it is difficult to generalize about each persons background and training style, especially on a forum such as this. My horse and I have a very good relationship even though it is one that began poorly, it has improved very much over time. I agree and appreciate your views on creating a bond. I have read and heard of the articles you mention, because I have spent a great deal of time studying about horses and their behavior.

There is however, nothing like experience to teach us about horses. That is what I lack and my friends here on HA help me overcome that obstacle frequently. I welcome and appreciate any insight and point of view that people choose to share.

Thanks,
Linda
Member:
heidim

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 2:14 pm:

I hope this thread isn't exhausted yet. Last summer, I bought an old gelding similar to Linda's. The catch is that he gives a little buck over any little whack with a whip or reins. We have no other respect issues with him; he just hates to run. It's not really a problem for us because we chose to do as Alden suggested earlier in this thread: we matched Chester with a compatible rider. My husband Mike, bless his heart, only wants to ride a horse that walks. Chester is perfect for him, and now I have a willing and relaxed man along on my trail rides. During one of those rides last fall, Chester sunk into deep mud during a river crossing and stumbled. He managed to make it up the bank and then stood stock still with my husband at the 2:30 position. Chester waited patiently until Mike righted himself. Chester was pleased because he didn't have to run, and Mike was thrilled because he was riding a horse that chose not to head for the hills under the circumstances. I've been tempted at times to try and "fix" Chester. With 20-some years under his girth, I have my doubts about keeping the habit from ever happening. While I'm all for working with our critters to make the most of them, we might also consider at times just letting them be themselves. As Abraham Lincoln once said, "Nothing is either good or bad; it's thinking that makes it so."
Member:
heidim

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 2:55 pm:

Here's a photo of Chester. I bought him for very little money and with no vet check. When our vet came by for a routine visit, I asked him to give Chester a once-over to ensure we didn't aggravate any old-age medical issues. Of course, Chester got a clean bill of health. His coat is spattered with about 15 white dots and his hooves are striped, so that points to App/POA crossing. Those hooves are also tough as Teflon, and I don't see him ever needing shoes. Talk about a keeper.

Member:
etiology

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 3:26 am:

If I had one wish, just ONE, it would not be for fame or riches.

I would wish that no horse owner would never find themselves choking back tears while mumbling to themselves, "If only I had known."

For, as I said, "The two greatest enemies that make the life of the domesticated horse as chaotic and miserable as possible are ignorance, (a lack of knowledge not to be confused with stupidity) and tradition, (which may include a goodly dash of speciesism).

So, let's start at the beginning.

But before we do, I like to stipulate that there are minor 'exceptions to every rule' regarding individual circumstances. In this context, I am referring to the overall worldwide management, care and training of the domesticated horse.

(I.) Missing pieces and counterproductive input.

It starts with the birth of a horse in a domesticated environment and 'nature versus nurture' in determining or causing individual differences, (specifically in behavioral traits).

Researchers on all sides of the nature vs nurture debate agree that the link between a gene and a behavior is not the same as cause and effect. While a gene may increase the likelihood that we, (or the horse in this case) may behave in a particular way, it does not make us or them do things. Which means that we/they have choices in life. In recent years, Jaak Panksepp's 'Affective Neuroscience' and a few other leaders in the field of Social Neuroscience, (event-related potentials, molecular biology and autonomic, neuroendocrine and immune responses) lend much to the fact that our environment has both a direct effect and altering effect on our genetic makeup.

Let us suppose, for the moment, that the optimum scenario for an animal is that a balance of nature AND nurture lends to optimum potential of an individual within a species.

Of the four basic social structures used by various species, (Solitary, Pairs, Extended Family and Harem Groups) the success of the Harem Group model is demonstrated by our Mustang herds here in America. Though some of their productivity may be due to a sparse counterbalance of predators, the vast majority of the propagation of their species can only be attributed to their Harem Group model.

Within that social structure of the harem band, it is relatively unheard of for a foal grown into a colt or filly to leave their natal group until they are forced out by the stallion, (exogamy). During that roughly two year period, they learn the accepted social behavior, hierarchy and family/herd dynamics of their species, (colts joining a bachelor band and fillies being quickly assimilated by a bachelor or band stallion. (In essence, the 'nurture' side of the equation where they 'learn to be a horse.')

Unfortunately, the foal born in a domesticated environment is denied that social learning experience. Generally speaking, 'weaning' is done when the foal reaches three to six months of age.

As Doyle G. Meadows, Professor, Animal Science and John E. Henton, Professor, Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine put it in one of their papers: "Weaning is stressful on both the mare and the foal. Many times horse producers wean foals with little regard to the emotional and physical stress that often arises. They typically wean their foals based on tradition or mere convenience."

I would tend to agree with them. But the detrimental stress is not the point in this case. Not only is the 'lack of learning' a consequential factor, but also what they DO learn and from who after separation from their Mother. For as the scales are now almost completely tipped from learning/nurturing of their own species to nature/instinct, they are cast into an environment of 'learned helplessness.' (If it wasn't too long ago, I remember one clinician actually picking a foal up by his tail to 'teach him a lesson.')

Thus from the beginning, the domesticated foal learns submission to a dominant human being left with nothing but his instincts to guide him as he is forced into what to him are the insanely suicidal situations of domestication.

Add to this the changeability of domesticated herds and it is no small wonder that we have 'behavioral problems and issues.'

With hopefully no taint of anthropomorphism, I would venture that a horse raised in an equine social structure/harem band would face the world of domestication with a greater amount of self-confidence than those raised in our present day early separation of mare and foal and the complete absence of a stallion/siblings familial unit.

Will domesticated horses ever be allowed to experience their own culture the first two years of their life?

Doubtful! (Shucks they race two year olds.)

But if we do not at the very LEAST take this into consideration, then we certainly cannot blame the horse when they react aggressively to our present day 'training.'

kind regards,

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
etiology

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 5:10 am:

I think Chuck is presenting the ideal we all strive for in our horsemanship.




~~~~~~~~~~~~
Horsemanship: The skill of riding horses; equitation. I'm not interested in 'horsemanship.' My interest is in winning my horse's heart to instill a desire to supercede my expectations in any activity he is physically and emotionally able to do.
~~~~~~~~~~~



If every horse is handled perfectly from birth, and every horseman handled horses consistently and with perfect timing, it would be a different world.



~~~~~~~~~~~~
It certainly would be a 'different world.' But it doesn't require 'perfect timing' or handled perfectly from birth. They have worked out the 'perfect handling from birth' perfectly themselves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~


Horses in a herd, while friendly, are not 'nice' to each other,



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That depends entirely on if they are in a changeable domesticated herd, one of long standing association, or a feral harem band.

Then two, that depends on which relationship they share.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~



and I'm pretty sure there isn't a democracy at work. The herd boss gets his/her job by being a confident leader, and many times a day will 'correct' horses lower on the totem pole that challenge him/her.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In a changeable, chaotic world of a domesticated herd, defensive posturing and sporadic, even uncalled for aggressiveness is bound to be predominant. But then that is the world WE created. As such, it is our responsibility to correct it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~



As a student of Chuck's maybe you can answer the question: using his method, what do you do with a horse who is good in other ways, hasn't been mishandled etc, but is just a lazy lump about moving forward and would prefer to nap rather than work? Would it be acceptable to give them a swat on the rump with a crop to settle the matter, or is there another method specific to this problem you'd use?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If by 'lazy lump' you mean a horse that has shut down, then the last thing out I would do is make his life more miserable. The 'other method,' as I said, requires learning a bit more about the mental, emotional, instinctual and physical needs of the horse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



I realize the 'complete' solution might involve many other aspects of the way the horse is being handled, but let's assume this problem exists in a vacuum just for the sake of discussion.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The horse world has been living in its' own vacuum for thousands of years. Time we realized that it is our management, care and 'training' that is the problem, not the horse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Chuck, I agree with the vast majority of what you say save one thing: I don't agree that every single horse is inherently good.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Then it is your belief that they are 'born bad?'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



In working with upwards of 500 different horses in my lifetime, I have met exactly one that I would consider a genuinely bad horse.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I mentioned, horses may have neurological issues that we are not initially aware of.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The vast majority of horses I've known have been utterly sweet, and I've worked with some rude critters that bit, kicked, stomped etc. due to prior mishandling of one kind or another. Most will avoid conflict when they can, some will pick a fight in self defense. I consider that a fault of the human, not the horse.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Glad to hear someone acknowledging that humans create all those aggressive/behavior problems!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





But the one exception is a horse that after 6 months of kind consistent handling literally tried to kill me when I had my back turned. The boy had a screw loose, that's all I can say. His owner had warned me that he had injured other people, and I thought 'they just don't understand him'. (Much as you are probably saying to yourself now.) For the 6 months leading up to that day, he was your average 'horse with history', but made steady progress. Then one day his eyes went blank and he snapped. He 'came to' not too long after and was back to his usual self, but make no mistake, he had some real mental problems.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Curious, what breed and age was the horse?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Chuck,
Thanks for your insight. All people's situations are different and it is difficult to generalize about each persons background and training style, especially on a forum such as this.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's situations may be different, but the horse is constant in the equation. And actually, it's pretty easy to generalize training styles, (just add a little objective critical thinking).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



My horse and I have a very good relationship even though it is one that began poorly, it has improved very much over time. I agree and appreciate your views on creating a bond. I have read and heard of the articles you mention, because I have spent a great deal of time studying about horses and their behavior.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have devoted a goodly part of my life to studying not only horse behavior, but also the human/equine relationship, (all because of a three-letter word). That word was, 'why.'

Why after thousands of years working with an animal that has remained virtually unchanged mentally, emotionally and instinctually do we STILL have so many behavioral issues and 'horse problems'? (Especially so with the advent of our present day 'natural horsemanship' formats?)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~


There is however, nothing like experience to teach us about horses. That is what I lack and my friends here on HA help me overcome that obstacle frequently. I welcome and appreciate any insight and point of view that people choose to share.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sharing insights and points of view is always enjoyable! Then again....
"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment."
~ Will Rogers ~


Apologize for not answering each individually. I'm just too dog tired tonight.


kind regards,


Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 2:17 pm:

Charles, thanks for your detailed response. Just a couple clarifications: when I refer to horsemanship, I consider only about 10% of that (if that) to be equitation/riding skills. When I use the term I am referring to the cumulative set of skills and abilities to communicate with and care for horses, including everything from breeding and herd management, meeting diet and social needs, medical care, fitness, overall handling abilities of horses of all ages, sexes and breeds, ability to read horses' body language and communicate in kind, ability to help horses adapt/overcome their fight/flight response to be able to live and work in captivity (e.g. trailering), ability to safely interact with multiple horses in a herd environment, etc etc etc. Please don't think I'm equating being a good rider (which IMO has more to do with athletic ability) with being a good horseman.

Also, probably about half of the horses I have worked with in my life have been raised up to one or two years old living in a much more natural environment than average, running with a herd on vast acreage, and have had the ability to develop as *horses* rather than being isolated into a mare/foal pair, weaned and dominated at 6 months. I have found the ones allowed to run loose as colts to be more confidant and clearer communicators, but even the ones who haven't can learn to be horses again in fairly short order.

IME, the domesticated herd when given a healthy environment and plenty of space is 'nicer' to each other than the feral harem band. I am thinking specifically of one of the documentaries you mentioned re: Cloud & company. The amount of horse-on-horse violence is shocking when you first see it. But even within my own little herd of 5 right now, while they are all quite content and don't have agression issues, the herd boss doesn't think twice about taking a chunk of rear end out of a horse who tries to leapfrog his position. I have never seen a herd without a clear pecking order that was reinforced regularly.

Finally, regarding 'bad' horses.. Saying that a horse is born 'bad' is a value judgment that is not really relevant; I shouldn't have used that term. I do think that in some rare cases horses are born with different mental makeup that does not allow them to live and work in a domesticated situation.

The 'bad' horse I was describing was a 9 year old Impressive bred paint stallion. He was raised in the same environment as the other 100 or so horses on that ranch and was the only one who was even remotely troubled, in a group with a wide range of personalities and breeding. Incidentally we had about 25 other studs that were gentle as lambs, so while his hormones might be related there was more (or maybe less!) at work in his psyche.

The 6 months I spent working with him before he snapped were all doing groundwork. He was very easy to handle overall, not territorial in his stall or paddock, never batted an eye at being bathed, trailered, saddled etc .. which to me was the first clue that he wasn't all there. He just would occasionally try to kill people for no apparent reason. I think if he were a human he would have been on antipsychotic meds, but being a horse... well in some cases therapy can only take you so far.
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 2:27 pm:

Heidi, I meant to respond to you too :-) call me a thread hijacker, I deserve it!

What a cute shaggy boy you have! How does Chester move out at liberty? Any problems taking a particular lead? Does he cross-canter? How about saddled but loose? For some reason, I'm not sure why, this sounds more like a physical issue to me. Keep in mind that's based on not much other than the thought of a horse who is clearly patient and willing actually throwing a buck at you when you ask him to move out.

I think identifying whether or not he's experiencing physical pain or discomfort is in order, whether you decide to 'fix' him or not. But given the good match you have found with him and your husband, I would probably lean towards just letting them enjoy being 'right' for each other and not push the issue too much :-)
Member:
heidim

Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 3:24 pm:

Hi Shannon. Thanks for admiring our beloved Chester. He will trot and even lope with legwork and lots of tongue clicking. He doesn't buck until the whip comes out. My daughter got him to make one round of the corral before he tired of the whole affair. No, I don't think he's experiencing any pain. I could probably get him to do more than my daughter because I am more persistent. But, seeing as he's already found his "special someone", I will just keep him around for hubby. Thanks all the same for suggesting a possible physical explanation--that point is always worth investigating.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Friday, Apr 17, 2009 - 9:30 pm:

Trying again....
Member:
etiology

Posted on Friday, Apr 17, 2009 - 9:37 pm:

Charles, thanks for your detailed response. Just a couple
clarifications: when I refer to horsemanship, I consider only about
10% of that (if that) to be equitation/riding skills. When I use the
term I am referring to the cumulative set of skills and abilities to
communicate with and care for horses, including everything from
breeding and herd management, meeting diet and social needs, medical
care, fitness, overall handling abilities of horses of all ages, sexes
and breeds, ability to read horses' body language and communicate in
kind, ability to help horses adapt/overcome their fight/flight
response to be able to live and work in captivity (e.g. trailering),
ability to safely interact with multiple horses in a herd environment,
etc etc etc. Please don't think I'm equating being a good rider (which
IMO has more to do with athletic ability) with being a good horseman.


We each have our own definition of horsemanship, I'm sure. I simply used the one that is universally accepted worldwide.






Also, probably about half of the horses I have worked with in my life
have been raised up to one or two years old living in a much more
natural environment than average, running with a herd on vast acreage,
and have had the ability to develop as *horses* rather than being
isolated into a mare/foal pair, weaned and dominated at 6 months.





That's GREAT, if your referring to the 'harem band' model, (that is, a stallion, mares and siblings). If not, then optimum potentials were not appreciated. In any case, I am truly overjoyed to hear they had the opportunity they did.




I have found the ones allowed to run loose as colts to be more confidant
and clearer communicators, but even the ones who haven't can learn to
be horses again in fairly short order.



They may have learned a rudimentary facsimile of their social culture, but nothing can replace the social learning and upbringing from birth to early maturity from a complete equine 'family.'



IME, the domesticated herd when given a healthy environment and plenty of space is 'nicer' to each other than the feral harem band.



I will defend with my life, your right to your opinion.


I am thinking specifically of one of the documentaries you mentioned re:
Cloud & company. The amount of horse-on-horse violence is shocking
when you first see it.



I did not see any 'shocking horse on horse violence.' In fact, I thought the scenes of familial socialization and foals quite beautiful. I DID see stallions actively playing the roles Mother Nature gave them to successfully propagate their species. I also saw a classic example of a particular mare and stallion that broke the instinctual boundaries of their species.


But even within my own little herd of 5 right
now, while they are all quite content and don't have agression issues,
the herd boss doesn't think twice about taking a chunk of rear end out
of a horse who tries to leapfrog his position.


Sounds extremely 'aggressive' to me. I don't see that in my little herd of four generations. Nor do I in ANY domestic herd of long term association.


I have never seen a
herd without a clear pecking order that was reinforced regularly.


Of course there is a marked hierarchal standing in all herds. But many/most herds of long term association don't need aggressive 'reinforcement.'


Finally, regarding 'bad' horses.. Saying that a horse is born 'bad' is
a value judgment that is not really relevant; I shouldn't have used
that term.



It's quite commonplace for people to use the term 'bad horse, and/or 'born bad.' Other than neurological injury/illness, every horse ever born was born an absolutely 'perfect horse.' The only problem is that we, (the collective 'we' as a species) refuse to consider the possibility that it is our present day management, care and 'training,' (coupled with our personal needs and ego) that make the horse seem 'bad.'


I do think that in some rare cases horses are born with
different mental makeup that does not allow them to live and work in a
domesticated situation.
The 'bad' horse I was describing was a 9 year old Impressive bred
paint stallion. He was raised in the same environment as the other 100
or so horses on that ranch and was the only one who was even remotely
troubled, in a group with a wide range of personalities and breeding.
Incidentally we had about 25 other studs that were gentle as lambs, so
while his hormones might be related there was more (or maybe less!) at
work in his psyche.

The 6 months I spent working with him before he snapped were all doing
groundwork. He was very easy to handle overall, not territorial in his
stall or paddock, never batted an eye at being bathed, trailered,
saddled etc .. which to me was the first clue that he wasn't all
there. He just would occasionally try to kill people for no apparent
reason. I think if he were a human he would have been on antipsychotic
meds, but being a horse... well in some cases therapy can only take
you so far.


To me, (given his previous history) that would certainly indicate a neurological/physiological problem of some sort.Then too, there's quite a bit of controversy about the Impressive line. As you know, in HyPP, (the PP stands for Periodic Paralysis). I believe if memory serves me right, it causes a disruption of a sodium ion channel, and can cause involuntary muscle twitching, and in worse case full paralysis. The problem is that until our equine research scientists dig deeper, we have no idea what other effects it may have on neurological and cardiovascular systems as oxygen/nutrient carrying blood flow to the brain is essential.



best regards,




Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
terrido

Posted on Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 - 12:01 pm:

important
I want to say in here since I started the highly controversial subject matter posted that FT (Friendship Teaching) DOES NOT in any form condone use of a whip, and certainly not whipping a horse to make it go forward.

I very much want to make that abundantly clear.

Again the views that I expressed on the use of a whip are my own, personally, and should in no way reflect upon FT or it's philosophy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am a student of FT, yes. I will say that because of FT my little miss Bella will happily and willingly go well forward when I just think of it. Having a special relationship does make a difference in every interaction including riding. I should also state for the record that Bella has not completed the FT course, we have barely scratched the surface of it.
Member:
stek

Posted on Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 - 1:15 pm:

Charles, as I said I agree the 'bad horse' in question likely had neurological/psychological problems. He tested HyPP negative but IMO that doesn't rule out a physical cause.

I'm surprised to hear you've never seen a horse bite another on the rear end as a form of discipline .. what are you feeding yours? Maybe my verbiage was overly colorful and gave you the wrong impression .. by 'take a chunk out of the rear' I meant the typical horse nip, such as you see on a routine basis in most mare/foal relationships. With the horses I have known, physical discipline starts with the mare and foal and continues throughout life. It is usually not needed in a balanced herd, but I wouldn't say it's never used.

Finally, regarding the daily reinforcement of the pecking order .. I was referring to things like a stern look, a swishing tail, or any of the myriad other bits of body language horses use to communicate to each other. I use similar things in my communication with horses; when I ask for respect a look is usually sufficient. Many of my horse chores (trimming feet, grooming, deworming etc) are done with all the horses in a group loose at pasture, and due to the difference in our physical size I find it important that each member of the herd respect my personal space and the space of the horse I am working with at the moment. I have a loving relationship with each one, and each one realizes they are not free to move me around the way they would a subordinate member of the herd.
Member:
stek

Posted on Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 - 1:18 pm:

Thanks for the clarification Terrie. I don't think there is that much controversy going on here, more likely a misunderstanding due to the nature of communicating with words over the internet :-)
Member:
etiology

Posted on Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 - 10:36 pm:

Charles, as I said I agree the 'bad horse' in question likely had
neurological/psychological problems. He tested HyPP negative but IMO
that doesn't rule out a physical cause.
True. The reaction could also have been numerous other sources, (trauma, neurological, illness, etc).

I'm surprised to hear you've never seen a horse bite another on the
rear end as a form of discipline ..
I've seen it often, but not in herds of long association, (nor ever in mine). The only exception being an occasional youngster growing into early maturity challenging an Alpha or lead mare.

what are you feeding yours?
Various feeds as some are way into their thirties.

Maybe
my verbiage was overly colorful and gave you the wrong impression ..
by 'take a chunk out of the rear' I meant the typical horse nip, such
as you see on a routine basis in most mare/foal relationships. With
the horses I have known, physical discipline starts with the mare and
foal and continues throughout life.
Yes, the foal's first teacher is his Mother. That's why it is important to form the correct type of relationship with her to lay the ground work for the future with the foal.

It is usually not needed in a
balanced herd, but I wouldn't say it's never used.

By 'balanced herd,' you mean a complete equine family of stallion, mare, (or mares) and siblings?



Finally, regarding the daily reinforcement of the pecking order .. I
was referring to things like a stern look, a swishing tail, or any of
the myriad other bits of body language horses use to communicate to each other.

I just talk to mine, and they talk to me too! 'Reciprocal' communication is all important to us.

I use similar things in my communication with horses; when
I ask for respect a look is usually sufficient.
Perhaps our perceptions and beliefs concerning 'respect' may be a bit different.

Many of my horse
chores (trimming feet, grooming, deworming etc) are done with all the
horses in a group loose at pasture, and due to the difference in our
physical size I find it important that each member of the herd respect
my personal space and the space of the horse I am working with at the
moment. I have a loving relationship with each one, and each one
realizes they are not free to move me around the way they would a
subordinate member of the herd.
My kids and I are just one big happy, caring family, and we 'all gotta get along.'


best regards,


Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 11:38 am:

I just wanted to clarify something and put my two cents in.... I have an HYPP N/H horse and have been around many, many HYPP N/H horses, as well as 100s of Impressive bred horses that were HYPP n/n. I have also seen horses have HYPP 'attacks' and at NO time did they act out in a violent way towards people (or other horses or animals for that matter). (If someone got hurt it was because they were in the way when a horse went down, etc.)In fact, most of these equine individuals I have been around were quite the opposite and very loving, extremely smart, and had personalities that made you swear they were human. I just wanted to speak up as I don't want anyone to get the idea that a HYPP horse has a tendency to be aggressive or mean. I believe that is something that has much more to do with learned behavior or inherited from the damn and/or sire.

I am not sure about the horse described above related to a physiological problem, etc. but I have, however, witnessed stallions that were very mean as a stud but after being gelding were nice as pie. Some horses just aren't meant to be stallions and in my opinion if one is mean or threatening, he should be a gelding.
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 2:26 pm:

Hi Jennifer, I didn't mean to imply behavioral problems with Impressive bred horses in general, there are so many other variables it's hard to generalize anyway. The paint breeding farm I worked on had many other Impressive horses (including studs) that were just fine mentally. In fact the full brother of the one I mention above was a real sweetheart to work with and went on to do very well on the hunter/jumper circuit. I'm not a big fan of those that are bred for halter with big beefy bodies on teeny tiny feet but that's another discussion entirely :-)

One of the strangest things about the horse I described was that he wasn't mean or studdy at all in the usual sense, altho with consistent good handling none of the studs on that particular farm were. If he were my horse he would have been cut long before that point though...
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 11:11 am:

Well, after several days now of riding, I thought I'd post an update.

I really only had to use that whip often on the first day. Since then, my horse has moved a lot faster and only needed a light reminder on occasion. I find my biggest problem is to remember not to nag with my leg but to use the whip after any moment that he stops listening to my leg. That is most likely where the problem began. I like that it makes him responsible for keeping his pace, which leaves me free to concentrate on other things. Each day of riding has resulted in lighter contact with less need for the whip.

To sum this up, it seems using the whip without actually causing ANY injury to him was a very good idea. He just needed to know I can get rough if I have to, and this was enough to make him decide to stop pushing me around. I like that it was his decision too. Seems like it will stick better, even if occasionally I have to jog his memory.

Linda
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 1:01 pm:

Shannon, thank you for following up on that. I did not think you meant to imply that, I was just concerned that someone may read what you and Charles were discussing and misunderstand and I just wanted to clarify. And I'm with you... I am not a big fan of the halter breeding industry either (and yes that is an entirely different discussion LOL) In addition, while I do own an HYPP horse, I do not support continuing to breed HYPP positive horses. While they are markedly more muscular, an easy keeper when it comes to fitting them, and absolutely beautiful, after seeing what happens when they have an 'attack' I can't condone perpetuating this genetic defect. Now THAT is definitely an entirely different subject. LOL

Linda, so glad to hear things are going well. It is much more pleasant to ride a horse that listens to you. In the long run it will make you both much happier.
Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 1:49 pm:

Great news Linda, glad you were able to sort him out!
Member:
sdms

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 2:52 pm:

Great news, Linda. I've been following this thread but not chimed in because others had already voiced my opinion. Glad to hear you've made positive progress!
Member:
etiology

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 2:34 pm:

We've already covered 'weaning.'


(II.) RESTRICTION.

While there may be instances to the contrary, the Horse's strongest basic instinct is self-survival. Most mares will defend their foal to a point of near death against a predator attack, but in the end they will flee. Mother nature deems the propagation of their species is afforded a greater reproductive potential if she lives, rather than chance losing both her and her foal. Thus the Horse's primary means of insuring their survival is flight. Not being able to run/flee in any given split second of his life greatly DIMINISHES his ability to survive.

Sometime in his growth, the foal will be 'trained' to forego panic and tolerate the feeling of entrapment. This training is usually done with the aid of a halter rope or longe line. They may also be 'trained' within the confines of a round pen or picadero. What one tends to forget when the horse balks, panics or displays aggressive/defensiveness posturing in that initial stage of learned helplessness is how unnatural and frightening that it can be for the Horse.

Suggestion:
(Try taking a stroll all alone in the wee hours of the morning through the worst crime-ridden section of any large city without a cell phone or concealed weapon).

Depending on how long it takes to break the resistance and spirit of the Horse in question, this process of entrapment and force in the name of 'training' based on hierarchal dominance/submission can be quite lengthy, (and with it, once again, chronic stress).

Using restriction coupled with pressure/release -- comfort/discomfort to 'train' a horse results in a confrontational relationship based on learned helplessness and imprinting a higher hierarchal standing, (herd rank). The success or failure is determined by how well the horse responds both initially and over a period of time, (which is completely dependent upon the depth of imprint and the psychological/genetic make up [basic origin-prototype] of each individual horse).

In retrospect, if the horse later displays any compassion or intimacy, we find that the direct causal had nothing to do with what we did, but in spite of it.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 2:38 pm:

Maladaptive and Counterproductive Care and Training

(III.) STALLING

The maladaptive management practice of stalling prevails throughout the entire world. "Horses housed in stalls are deprived of opportunities for social interaction and the performance of natural behaviors." (Houpt, 1998).

# 1. The innate needs of a horse are designed as a complex social structure in which a number of different levels of interactive relationships are essential as a matter of social function. Horses are designed to spend a considerable portion of their day (up to 18 hours) in social grazing. Throughout this time period a process of mental/emotional stability, social bonding, family/group cohesion and sense of self / belonging is continually being nurtured.


# 2. The human psychopathological effects of solitary confinement become evident after just 30 days (and we are basically 'cave dwellers). It is no small wonder that the psychological repercussions result in stereotypic behaviors such as: stall-kicking, weaving, pacing/box walking, cribbing/wind-sucking, incessant digging/pawing, repetitive whinnying/screaming, despondency, eating disorders, self-mutilation and wood-chewing! This does not take into account the discomfort and pain of excess hyDrOchloric acid when their stomachs are empty for long periods of time. Yet 'tradition' continues to 'turn a blind eye' to the repercussions of maladaptive management practices (just as it does to archaic 'training practices').




# 3. Almost always, horses cannot experience REM sleep unless they are sleeping in the prone position. This restive state is essential for all mammals including ourselves. The first thing our doctor will tell us when we catch a cold or the flu is, "Drink lots of liquids and get 'plenty of rest.' Social groups provide a sense of security/safety as one or more will 'stand guard' while the others sleep. This facilitates REM sleep and its consequential ensuing mental/emotional/physical healing. Lacking REM sleep, the physical, mental and emotional condition of the stalled horse cannot possibly compare with that of his freedom-based counterpart.





# 4. The anatomical design of the horse is a free-ranging lifestyle. The average distance of normal daily movement in a feral herd varies from 10 to 20 miles a day. The detrimental physiological effects of even limited confinement for an animal whose body was designed for that essential range of daily movement are beyond imagination. Healthy suspensory ligaments and hoof growth as well as adequate circulation to the lower legs would be the first to appreciably deteriorate. As a horse walks, it continuously regenerates the blood and fluids flowing in and out of tissues surrounding the bones of the hoof and legs. It cannot do this in a stall.



#5. Based on scientific evidence, the therapeutic benefits of regular exercise are well documented. Study after study has shown that it increases health and general well being. The evidence is clear, leaving no doubt that physical exercise has a positive effect on stress by calming the mind and relaxing the human body, (through the release of endorphins, the body’s 'feel good hormones'). These molecules attach to special receptors in the brain and spinal cord to stop pain messages, and act as natural mood enhancers.

From a strictly neurological standpoint, it takes no stretch of the imagination to conclude that, forced to endure solitary confinement/stalling, the domesticated horse is robbed of this natural opportunity to live a stress-free life. When released from their cage, they understandably often exhibit abnormal, sometimes defiant/aggressive behavior.

In what must be the 'Mother of All Egotistic Abusive Tragedies,' they are usually admonished if not physically punished for their behavior when set free from their cage.

For those who are under the false impression that 'turn out' for an hour a day is sufficient, I would ask them to perform one simple experiment:

Stand locked in your bathroom for twenty-three hours a day, (no mail, phone, no outside stimuli/conversation, radio, T-V or reading/writing material allowed). At the end of a week, you will be better able to understand a tiny fraction of what your horse goes through his entire life if he is stalled.



#6. Given the horse physiologically requires exercise, (traveling 10 to 20 miles a day in their natural environment) it is no small wonder that solitary confinement/stalling for any period of time prevents optimum fitness, (while often leading to various respiratory, cardiovascular, musculature and physical ailments). Stocking up, arthritis, stereotypical behavior, despondency, weaving/box-walking, eating disorders, stall kicking, pawing, constant rubbing, chewing and cribbing are some but not all. This does not take into account possible respiratory infections and diseases due to dust and the four main gases produced from decomposing manure, HyDrOgen Sulfide, Methane, Ammonia, and Carbon Dioxide). In high concentrations, (as with no adequate ventilation) each of these gases pose a health threat to horses.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 2:42 pm:

Maladaptive and Counterproductive Care and Training

(IV.) ENVIRONMENTAL AND SOCIAL INSTABILITY

To further make the domesticated Horse's world as insanely chaotic as possible, they are bounced from one environment to another. And if by chance they are left in a stable environment for any period of time, herd mates and preferred associates, (bonded horse buddies) are often lost or new additions are added. If bonding has occurred with any specific individual, the repercussions of separation anxiety and grief response can be severe and traumatic.

(Excerpt-Permission granted) Excerpt from article written by Dr. Kenneth L. Marcella, DVM:

"Veterinarians have become so aware of their special role in this potentially devastating event that some clinics and veterinary schools now have “grief counselors” and there are many reference sources, support groups, and even “pet loss” chat rooms to help people deal with this trauma. But there is almost nothing written and virtually no research, surprisingly, dealing with the reaction of animals to the loss of a partner or close herd mate. Animal behaviorists caution that it is not always correct to think and speak anthropomorphically (giving human feelings and characteristics to animals) but owners and trainers feel that they can tell when a horse is feeling happy, playful, contented, angry, bored, tired, upset or any number of other emotions. And most veterinarians, even if they do not use these terms, recognize similar behavioral expressions. In cases like that of Ben and Doc, the surviving horse often shows signs of classical depression and, in the words of most of horseowners, acts sad.

There may be more science to the way animals seems to act, however, and Dr. Crowell-Davis, DVM, Ph.D. and board certified animal behaviorist at the University of Georgia College of Veterinary Medicine assures us that these interpretative evaluations of how animals “feel” in response to certain situations are fairly accurate. “The use of PET scans (positron emission tomography) provide researchers with an evaluation of mental states based on brain activity and neurochemical changes noted in response to specific stimuli,” explains Dr. Crowell-Davis. A person is presented with a stimulus that causes them to be happy, for instance, and the PET scan records their pattern of brain activity and the chemical changes that occur in the brain during that time period. Additionally, certain drugs can be given that produce specific feelings and the resultant brain activity and chemistry can be recorded. “When animals are recorded showing the same patterns of brain activity and the same brain chemical changes that correspond to a particular human emotion or mood state,” says Dr. Crowell-Davis, “ it would not be logical of us to assume that they are not experiencing similar feelings”. Based on how closely some horses correspond to the classical signs of clinical depression and on how intense the individual responses can be, the loss of a close companion is felt as sadness by horses and they can certainly express grief.

Anyone who has spent time around horses will tell you that they can be happy and pleased or angry and discontent They do have emotions and they can certainly interact with their environment and feel things. When horses are separated or die, other horses close to them exhibit grief-like behavior, which can become excessive at times. Recognition of this phenomenon is important for equine veterinarians because clients will seek help in dealing with these situations. Being aware of “grief loss” in horses and being willing to help treat these situations will allow you to help both horses and their owners. It is likely that we will eventually find that many behavioral and emotional states currently assigned only to humans, such as paranoia, schizophrenia, attention deficit disorders and many others are all found in horses. Their recognition, diagnosis and treatment will help improve life for many horses that are currently thought of as “un-trainable”, “spooky”, or simply “crazy”. It actually may be far crazier to assume that these horses do not feel many of the same things that we do, and need treatment just as much."

Add to this the changeability of domesticated herds. It is no small wonder that we have 'behavioral problems and issues,' (and again chronic stress as well.)

If suddenly a tall well-built stranger barged into your house and sat down unannounced at your dinner table, how would you greet him? What would be your first reaction?

Would you experience doubt? Apprehension? Fear? Anger? Perhaps the two of you could move out to the front lawn and 'settle things,' (as is done in most 'new horse scenarios' in the horse world).

You would in all probability, experience an overabundance of stress.

So does your horse.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 2:48 pm:

Maladaptive and Counterproductive Care and Training

(V.) RIDING

While rider induced lameness is becoming an accepted possible cause of physical disability , we seem to forget that rider induced stress can be, (and probably is) much more common.

Poor saddle fit, whipping to encourage forward motion, unnecessary harsh bits, indiscriminate use of spurs, (also never needed) rider imbalance, (uneven weight distribution at various gaits) and jerking on the reins for balance all lead to a situational pattern of discomfort and pain.

Thus any/all mounted activity becomes viewed by the horse as something to avoid if at all possible. Failing that, and being forced to endure the discomfort and pain, we have the audacity to wonder why the horse displays aversive/shying, bolting or spooking at an unknown or familiar source/stimuli and/or actually bucking to rid themselves of the discomfort and pain. Sadly, for most horses that do not have a rapport with their rider, (or an uncaring rider who seems to be completely oblivious) it is the only means of communication the Horse is allowed.

Which only adds to the stress the Horse has already endured, (not counting the fact that the Horse is forced into environments and situations he regards as insanely suicidal).

What a difference it could have been if the rider had an interest in giving their horse every possible opportunity to carry them as effortlessly and joyfully as possible.

This does not take into account the physical conditioning of the horse, (preparing them for carrying additional weight and various mounted activities). If we exercise daily and keep fit, (instead living the sedate life of a couch potato) we feel a lot more like cutting the lawn on Saturday morning.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 2:59 pm:

Maladaptive and Counterproductive Care and Training

(VI.) Conclusion.

A very brief look at 'chronic stress.'


(Excerpt)
Serotonin and Hippocampal Neurogenesis
Elizabeth Gould, Ph.D.

~ ABSTRACT ~

The dentate gyrus continues to produce new granule neurons well into adulthood. This has been demonstrated for many mammalian species, from rodents to primates. The proliferation of granule cell precursors can be suppressed by stressful experiences, presumably via adrenal steroids. Recent evidence suggests that serotonin can enhance the production of new neurons via activation of the 5HT1A receptor. These results present the possibility that the inhibitory effects of stress on granule cell production may be prevented by 5HT1A receptor agonists.

While few if any equestrians have any interest in delving into neuroscience, the above study indicates that a healthy brain and learning is diminished when chronic stress is involved in an animal's life, (and especially so in early life). This is commonly accepted by neuroscientists.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




(Excerpt)
Horse Heart Coherence May Be Key To Non-invasive Stress Detection
By Dr. Ellen Gerhke

"A horse’s heart rhythms reflect their emotional state and can respond to the emotional state of a nearby human, according to a pilot study conducted by Alliant International University Professor Ellen Gehrke and the Institute of HeartMath. When in contact, a horse’s heart rate may mirror a human’s emotions, signifying a close unspoken form of communication between man and beast.

Horses have long been known to be sensitive to their environments. The preliminary research project “Horses and Humans Energetics: The study of heart Rate Variability (HRV) between horses and Humans” is the first step to proving horses to be as equally sensitive to the humans within that environment.

For years humans have reported emotional bonds with animals. Horses are often used therapeutically with emotionally and mentally ill and handicapped children and adults. This pilot study is the beginning of many studies to provide the research and data to support these reported bonds."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Add to this the Horse's olfactory sense, (which is beyond any doubt the one most dependent upon survival and quite extraordinary). Estimates vary as to how much greater a horse's sense of smell is than a human's from several hundred to thousands of times greater. In many cases, it is not known whether these estimates are exponential or linear, but it is safe to say that the Horse's olfactory sense is very much, (if not thousands of times) greater than our's. In addition, the horse carries around his own laboratory to instantly analyze and identify different pheromones. It is called the Organ of Jacobsen (or Vomeronasal organ.)

While present day science has not conclusively proven or disproven if the Horse can detect human pheromones, the success of air scent rescue Horses must certainly be considered in making that determination.


So, they hear things that we cannot hear, see things we cannot see, smell things we could never smell, and sense things we could never possibly be aware of, no matter how hard we tried, (perhaps something to consider the next time our Horse 'spooks at nothing').

Being so sensitive, in so many areas, it is no small wonder that they sadly often reflect our own intentions.




Q. Is there anything else we can possibly do to make the life of the domesticated horse any more miserable, chaotic and stressful?
A. It seems doubtful.

Oh! Yes!

Even though we know that in nature, horses graze and secrete saliva constantly, (which buffers the stomach from gastric acid) and that when horses are kept on dry lot or stalled this natural buffering mechanism is disrupted and acid indigestion often results, let's just feed him a little once or twice a day! Of course we don't know how well he will adjust to the discomfort, pain and resulting ulcers, (and chronic stress) but that's his problem.

And we could use a piece of metal in their mouth that inflicts pain to control and 'train them.'

And we can wear spurs to jab them in the sides to 'make them go' and train them.

And we could change our scent from day to day with various deodorants, hair sprays, shampoos and body powder. (That ought to really confuse them.)

And we could change our body covering texture and color and 'take some off or put something different on' during the day.

And we could even 'bare your teeth' when we're really happy, unlike other predators, and even horses, that bare their teeth when fighting or attacking. (Nothing like a little instinctive behavioral reversal active to maintain perceptive instability.)



Q. Is there anything we can do to give our horse a tranquil domesticated life, and regard both ourselves and our mounted activities with joy instead of gloom and despair?
A. Evidently, quite a bit.

But that will only happen when concerned, caring horse owners realize how we have, perhaps inadvertently, 'stacked the deck' against domestic Horses, (making it difficult if not impossible for them to be the horse we want, hope, or expect him to be).

And when we decide to reap the rewards of placing the physical, emotional and spiritual welfare of our horse above all else.

Actually, when you stop to think about it, why wouldn't any caring horse owner choose to do so?
Member:
stek

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 3:39 pm:

Charles, you might consider starting a new thread on this?

Incidentally I am in agreement about avoiding stalling whenever possible, my horses live out on pasture 24/7 in the winter months and out 18 hours a day in summer. At night they are dry-lotted in individual paddocks where they can see and touch their neighbors.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 5:12 pm:

I haven't been able to read all of this yet but it certainly is interesting.

Thanks for sharing it with us.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 5:38 pm:

Posted the wrong copy.

This should have been added to (II.) Restriction.

As it has been easily proven worldwide that horses can be taught all the essential ground and mounted request/responses without any type of restriction in a completely freedom-based environment, we find our present day training term of working a horse 'at liberty' in a round pen or picadero to be at best, deceptively misleading.
Member:
etiology

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 5:47 pm:

Charles, you might consider starting a new thread on this?

Sure! But where?

Incidentally I am in agreement about avoiding stalling whenever possible, my horses live out on pasture 24/7 in the winter months and out 18 hours a day in summer. At night they are dry-lotted in individual paddocks where they can see and touch their neighbors.

Yes, much/most of it is, (although ethologically/scientifically based) plain old common sense -- logical.

But because of 'tradition,' (and I suppose you could add ignorance, the human ego and needs) it simply escapes us and somehow, we unfairly end up with what we perceive to be behavioral issues and/or a 'bad horse.'

When in actuality, absolutely nothing was the horse's fault.

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
terrido

Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 11:04 am:

Chuck, try starting a new topic under Behavior and Training. Great food for thought for folks, thanks for putting this all together.
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 1:03 pm:

I have been reading along and will post a few thoughts and questions regarding Chuck's comments when it is posted in another thread.
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