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Discussion on Do you trail ride with your dog?
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 1:36 pm:
Hi. I am starting a new thread based on an existing one. I have a fairly well trained two-year-old Lab/Retriever (a firm "no" will keep him from chasing a rabbit) that I'd like to start taking along on trail rides. Does anyone have any tips to share to make our experience a good one? I've found threads on making dogs more horse-friendly, but wasn't able to find one specifically devoted to trail riding with them. I'm well aware that dogs dart in and out and that is why I've hesitated up to this point. I'm looking for pointers both on training the dog to be a good companion and also possibly training the horse to be tolerant as well.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 3:09 pm:
Hi again Heidi, thought I would answer you here  We have a golden mix, a lab/chessie mix and a chocolate, and all 3 come on rides depending on the length (the golden is 11 this year and not able to keep up like she used to).
I would say the first priority is to make sure your dog comes when called, if not then he becomes a hazard to other riders and other things you might run into on the trail.
Second would be that the horse and dog know each other and are familiar enough not to get worked up at the idea of exercise together. Some dogs' chase instinct is activated when a horse moves out, and that can lead to problems for obvious reasons. Our dogs come with me to do horse chores twice a day so the dogs and horses are well socialized to each other.
On the same vein, the dog needs to learn to get out of the way of the horse's feet when need be. We have a lab/chessie mix who is super sweet and doesn't bother the horses, but doesn't realize that a swishing tail or cocked foot means 'get out of my space NOW!'; instead of moving she curls up into a defensive ball. She can only go out with horses that are tolerant of her presence and careful.
One time in particular we were out riding and took a dead end trail with no place to turn around, and had to back out. Charlie the dog was right directly behind the last horse in line, and wouldn't move out of the way. To the horse's extreme credit he very carefully backed up over her without stepping on her, then she realized what we were doing and moved. Silly dog!
Last but certainly not least is make sure your dog is conditioned enough to follow along. You can really pack on the miles out on the trail without realizing it. If your pooch is pooped after a half hour walk with you, then he needs more time to work up to following along on a ride.
Hope this helps!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 10:57 pm:
Great tips, Shannon! I'll definitely "second" making sure your dog comes when called. Don't take an aggressive dog where you might meet other people/dogs, for obvious reasons.
My dogs are trained to return to me, and also to "wait". If I call out "Wait!" to them they will stop and look to me. Great when approaching road intersections,etc.
I think taking dogs is an excellent idea. My horse sees them as part of her pack and it helps her go willingly into new situations if she sees the dogs take things in stride. It's also good for getting horses used to movement all around them. Simon, my younger dog is famous for taking off after a squirrel on the other side of the horse. Now the mare doesn't even bat an eye when Simon runs under her.
I love riding with my dogs. Rarely do I ever ride without them! Have fun!
Erika
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Member:
jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 10:01 am:
just keep in mind bringing a dog to frequently used trails where you might bump into others coming in the other direction, might not be the best thing... I love dogs on the trail. As they can alert you to all kinds of things. But when one is trotting at you, and if unfamiliar and your horse doesn't know this dog, things can get ugly. It doesn't matter how well trained your dog is... Its the others horse that you have to worry about. I've seen a few things of this nature where the dog is really quite happy/friendly sort, but since it was oncoming to a horse its threatening.
Going it alone out in the big wide wilderness i would always bring a dog. We just don't have much of that here.
One idea put a bell on the dog? In above scenarios the dogs just appeared. It might have helped if the dog was making noise.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 11:10 am:
Hi Heidi, no good dogadvice from me, I am about the worst dogtrainer of HA I guess. BUT I took both my Dobermann and Cocker Spaniel for trailrides in France in the forest. Obviously they bounced in and out of the brushes as idiots but the horse was so pleased withtheir company she got used to that in no time!
The dogs stayed much better around then when walking them without horse[jealous? going faster?]
The mare started on her own after trotting or cantering waiting for the small dog to catch up!
All in all a very pleasant experiencefor all involved!
Just to encourage you!
Jos
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 12:11 pm:
I have had good and bad experiences meeting dogs on trails. I do not have a dog, but used to ride with a friend who had two Jack Russel terriers. My mare got used to them, although she had previously kicked at dogs who tried to nip at her heels. I was always a bit nervous, because the older dog ran right behind my mare's heels, so she could be in the shade. But, never a problem.
On the other hand, loose dogs that appear out of nowhere on narrow overgrown trails can seriously spook a horse. We have a lot of dog owners in this neighborhood, some very responsible, and some not. The responsible ones have their dogs on a leash, or at least call them when they see horses and control them until the horses are past them. The others let their dogs roam at will. It can be a hazard, especially if the dog is running loose near their property and feel duty bound to bark and carry on to "defend" their territory. That would probably not be a problem if you took dogs along on a trail ride, because they would not be in their "territory".
Lilo
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 3:10 pm:
I'm getting some great encouragement and ideas--more than I expected, so many thanks to all of you. I should clarify that I only ride with my dog on my own property. We have 80 hilly, partially wooded acres and that makes a nice loop for exercising us all. I've ridden with others' dogs, and some are respectful of horses and some are ignorant. I'd like to train my dog to be one of the former. Then maybe I'll find the courage to take him on trails away from home.
I'm not sure if this belongs on this thread, but our dog is kenneled right beside our horse pastures. It won't work for us to use invisible fence on our yard (complicated story), but we're toying with running the wires along the horse fence and giving Oliver run of the pasture. He would have way more room to run. Because he lives so close to the horses, Oliver no longer barks at them unless they're riled up about something else. None of the horses or mules are afraid of him. The mules actually charge him if he gets to pesky. The only problem I see is that the horses sometimes get running for the fun of it all, and I could see Oliver barking further encouragement. Then again, the horses do a lot of encouraging to each other on their own. Does anyone have any experiences with mixing canines and equines in such a free-for-all setting?
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Member:
jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 16, 2009 - 4:39 pm:
My dogs are loose with my mare and mini. The only problem is if the horses get riled up so do the dogs. They feel they need to stop it. or some kind of nonsense. very rare occurence but still always a possibility i'll lose a dog.
i follow never trust your ______ (insert animal of choice here), in this case dog, to go against their basic instincts. So if the horse is running, whatever breed Oliver is, his instinct to "herd", "hunt" "hound" "protect" or whatever will come into play.
just one dog? or many? Then the pack mentality takes over. And that is worse.
everyone can get along. I do it here but it took a while. cats and baby chicks, ducks, and water dogs, miniature dog, goats and horses, pigs and dogs... its just a matter of due diligence and willing to take your chances when they commingle.
My dogs just packed on one of my turkeys. he's fine but not without stitches. and to me that was an oddity. A rare occurence. but something i take my chances with. hadn't happened in the 3 years they've all been together.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Apr 17, 2009 - 3:07 pm:
Heidi,
With regard to letting your dog play in the pasture, it depends upon the equines involved.
Some are possessive of their pasture area and may be aggressive toward a dog (strike, chase, kick, bite).
I do not ride with my dogs because, for their safety, I don't want to encourage them to wander off of my farm by broadening their notion of where it is okay for them to be (such as off my property).
Many do enjoy riding with dogs but if you are going on a group ride with others, be sure to discuss with the other riders that you plan to bring dogs along so that they can elect to refrain from joining in on the ride if they or their horse are bothered by dogs.
There is always a possibility of encountering other dogs when out on the trail and that can result in one more thing that you have to worry about protecting.
Also, some horses become very agitated with the presence of dogs on a trail ride.
Personally I have seen or had several bad encounters over the years including some injuries to dogs, horses or riders.
My horse once tripped over a very well-seasoned trail dog (the owner said to ignore the dog, he would stay out of the way). My horse fell all of the way down, but fortunately took good care of me in the process so that I was not hurt. My horse, however, had a back and hip problem for a very long time afterward.
I have seen a dog spook a horse, resulting in a bad fall and injury to the rider.
I have seen a dog run underneath a horse spooking it resulting in the rider falling off and the horse running all of the way home and tearing his feet up in the process.
I've been in the forest when one of the dogs on our ride took off after the scent of a deer and refused to answer our call, resulting in the group unwisely riding off trail in the dark to look for her, which could have gotten us into any number of difficulties.
I've had a dog run out of tall grasses on a windy day so the scent was undetected, surprising my horse, brushing against his leg, and causing him to jump straight up into the air before lunging forward. The result for me was a very hard, unexpected fall including an injury to my shoulder and arm that caused pain for many months and a lack of use of the arm for weeks.
I've been on many trail rides where my horse had to watch out for dogs on the trail in front of him the whole time, which he does because he is too kind to want to hurt them. For me, this was a distraction.
When I am riding, I want to ride, not worry about dogs.
I have had a dog also get stepped on as a result of the dog chasing my horse's shadow right up to my horse's foot. (That same dog has tripped me a few times chasing MY shadow).
I guess what I am trying to say is that people often think their dogs are great and a lot of fun but may not be very much appreciated or enjoyed by others on a ride.
Trail riding is an activity that may result in many surprises that are beyond our control. To me, dogs brought on a ride introduce an extra element of danger by adding one more layer of things that may go wrong but for those who love to ride with their dogs I am sure their presence is looked at as another layer of fun.
I'm not saying don't do it. Many enjoy this very much but I thought that you might like to be aware of some of the things that do happen as a result of this activity.
As for me, I prefer it when riders leave their dogs at home, unless the dogs are sitting safely on top of the rider's horse and therefore well out of the way. (I have some friends whose dogs go along this way, and also know some folks who bring their cat on rides).
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Member:
lindas
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Posted on Friday, Apr 17, 2009 - 10:06 pm:
I am having to deal with a horse who used to be bomb proof, but after being surrounded by unruly dogs and bitten is now terrified of all dogs. I am having to deal with training him out of bolting at the first sight/sound of a dog. I would rather not see dogs on the trail because they are not always quiet and nice, and I would rather not get thrown off and hurt in a place where there is no cell phone service, because it could take several hours to get rescue workers in to help. There is always a risk of injury anytime you ride, but having dogs in the equation is just too much. And I am a class A dog lover!
Then again there was the huge rattlesnake sleeping stretched out in the middle of the trail last summer. If my dogs had been along with me they would have gone after that snake and been bitten, then I would have had to deal with a seriously injured pet, several hours away from the nearest veterinary clinic. Sorry to be a party pooper, but I just don't think taking dogs along on trail rides is a great idea, because you cannot leash them like you could if you were hiking.
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Friday, Apr 17, 2009 - 10:20 pm:
The reason I'd rather not take my dogs along on trail is that I get distracted from my horse which is where my attention should be. I used to ride with dogs all the time, but prefer to keep it simple for my "old" brain and only have a minimum of things to focus on at one time.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Apr 17, 2009 - 10:32 pm:
OK I give in... No rattlesnakes in France and vets always around the corner. Disregard my mail...
Jos
PS I am still in 'transition' to the US circumstances
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 - 6:37 am:
Hi again. Those of you who made the latest postings make good points about riding with dogs. Just so you know, Oliver and I have taken several obedience training classes and practice his skills daily, so he is better behaved than most dogs. That is why I can verbally command him to stop chasing rabbits, cats and other critters. I still have to agree that the risks of riding with my dog, even if it's just him and me on my horse, outweigh the pleasures. However, one of the postings on this thread suggested bringing a dog along on the trail when LEADING a horse for desensitizing purposes. I see possible merit in this. Thoughts?
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Member:
lindas
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 - 10:51 am:
That's okay, jos...everybody has different circumstances.
Heidi, the trails and areas where you ride may be less populated than here in the east. The places we ride have a lot of hikers from the city that let their dogs off the leash. These dogs are not used to horses and bark, chase, and sometimes try to nip at at them. By the time their owners get to them there could be a serious injury. And we have snakes, too!
On our road all the dogs come out to bark at my horse when I ride. One group got too crazy and surrounded Reno and one of the little dogs actually bit him. He does not kick, even at flies, so it really freaked him out because he could not get rid of the little stinker. As part of his training I am getting off of him as soon as I see the dogs and leading him past the "threat." He is outwardly calm when I am there on the ground to "protect" him, but his pulse is racing. Imagine, a big 1,000 lb horse scared of a chihuahua! What a weenie!!!! In a few weeks I will try staying on him, but since my living depends on being able to do surgery I cannot afford to get hurt so I am taking it slow.
With regards to desensitizing a DOG to a horse, I think leading the horse on the trail would probably be helpful. But seeing a strange horse might cause excitement to start all over again. You never know.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 18, 2009 - 12:42 pm:
Where you ride would certainly make a difference! I ride on about a 4000 acre chunk of forest and rarely see another person while I'm out. We also don't pass any private property. My dogs do come to heel, sit and stay on verbal command on the rare occasion when we do meet other folks on the trail.
Any time we come across another hiker, biker, or rider, we pull off the trail well in advance of passing and go on a sit/stay to avoid any potential conflict. I have also come across other people out with their dogs who let them run wild and don't call them off when they meet others and find it to be supremely annoying.
If I am riding in a new area or with horses outside of our regular group I leave the dogs at home. Even well behaved dogs can be a nuisance if riding with horses that are not used to them. I think it's more important to respect your fellow riders and their horses in those cases than to get the dogs out for a run!
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Member:
lindas
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Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 9:38 am:
Gosh, I would LOVE to have a huge forest to ride in! We did have that until last year. We have 2,000 acres of undeveloped land behind our house. It has miles and miles of trails. We never saw a soul out there. The owners did not care who rode on it, (motorcycles, 4 wheelers, horses, whatever), as long as you did not tear anything up. Then the owner died and the state game land commission bought the property. Next thing you know there is a big orange gate across the entry trail. No motorcycles, no 4 wheelers, NO Equine species!!!!!! The horse people around here have tried for years to get the game commission to allow riding on their lands...no luck at all. It is a very powerful, entrenched organization. So if I want to ride anywhere but on the road and in a couple of fields I risk a $250 fine. We live on a quiet (except for barking dogs), dead end road but only a mile long. The closest trails that allow riding are an hour drive away.
I might risk it in the summer on Sundays, as there is nobody out there. The game land's surveillance planes are rarely seen on Sundays. But the trails are getting overgrown with no one using them. Won't be long before they are unusable. What a shame.
Under those circumstances I would probably be willing to take my dogs, if it were not for the snakes. Our wonderful game lands people thought that rattlers were "endangered" and proceeded to release a whole bunch of them right in the South Mountain Game lands, just a couple miles from a heavily visited state park. (did I mention we are dealing with idiots???) Unfortunately the trail areas that are left, that we have to drive a long way to get to, are not dog friendly.
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Member:
janette
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Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 12:05 pm:
I have taken several of our German Shepherds trail riding. It depends on where we are going. I don't take them to state or national parks or any trails that are likely to be crowded or multi-use. The dogs are well behaved, well trained and friendly, but other people, other dogs and other horses who are not used to dogs thrown into the picture and you are setting the scene for a potential wreck.
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 8:35 am:
I've decided to leave my dog home and just focus on my mare on the trail, whether leading or riding. I liked the idea of him helping out with desensitizing, but it's just not worth any of us getting hurt. When I do walk the dog, I will use the opportunity to add and vary inanimate objects along the trail to help desensitize the mare on my walks with her. That feels a safer route. Thanks for all your input--in my mind at least, it led to a better solution.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 1:08 pm:
One other thought, if you had to yell to bring your dog back to you, how would your horse react? (Mine thinks I am yelling at him).
I think if I had your situation where I am riding on my own property with no other riders around, I might approach it a little at a time. First, get the horse used to the trail and bombproof to spooky situations. This could take months or years. I might try walking the dog on the trail without the horse to work on keeping him in control with only my voice. This could take weeks, months, or even years. Then try bringing the two together for a very short ride. I like to introduce new things slowly for best results. This is only a thought - have never done it, so keep that in mind.
Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 1:45 pm:
That's a great idea Linda, you never know when you might run into other people with dogs on the trail who may or may not be polite.. if that's one more thing you can prepare for, all the better.
Now how do I prepare for running into bears on the trail?! Last spring I was out riding alone on my not-so-dependable mare and came across a cub on the trail. He disappeared over the hill ahead of us, I'm sure we passed him and his momma at some point. But luckily we were close to home and my mare would have leaped through flaming hoops to get back to the herd...
Anyway enjoy your rides Heidi, sounds like a good decision to keep it simple, at least for a while
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Member:
lrhughes
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2012 - 5:50 pm:
I ride with two or more dogs almost all the time. They are working dogs and we use them to find and help move cattle. Our horses become used to them and other dogs early on and are fine with them. Pups need to be taught not to nip at horses and to keep out of the way. They also need to keep out of my way...I train them early by brushing past them and if they don't move, pushing them over with my foot and telling them to "get." Our horses are used to dogs being around and even underfoot and know not to kick...if a dog bites them, it might get kicked, but its more likely to get knocked out of the way by me. My dogs do come, sit and stay on easily and are very attentive to me. They absolutely love to come. Fortunately I'm seldom riding by roads, but if I do, the dog heels to my right.
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Member:
lrhughes
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2012 - 5:52 pm:
I ride with two or more dogs almost all the time. They are working dogs and we use them to find and help move cattle. Our horses become used to them and other dogs early on and are fine with them. Pups need to be taught not to nip at horses and to keep out of the way. They also need to keep out of my way...I train them early by brushing past them and if they don't move, pushing them over with my foot and telling them to "get." Our horses are used to dogs being around and even underfoot and know not to kick...if a dog bites them, it might get kicked, but its more likely to get knocked out of the way by me. My dogs do come, sit and stay easily and are very attentive to me. They absolutely love to come. Fortunately I'm seldom riding by roads, but if I do, the dog heels to my right.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 9:36 am:
Hello LRH,
We too ride with dogs where safe and allowed. Typically we take a German Shepherd that is very well trained to voice commands "come", "heal", and "sit".
I keep trying to teach my Rat Terrier to ride on the butt on my horse but she really has not developed a real like of the process. I have a friend whose dog (a Jack Russel) who has his own mule when they go riding. I was hoping to get a picture at this years Christmas parade but my daughter insisted on riding my horse so I was stuck in the truck.
DrO
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 10:32 am:
I do not have a dog but often go hiking with my daughter-in-law and her black Lab/Aussie mix. He is generally well trained, but still young. If he sees a deer or a bunny running away, he will give chase, and no voice in the world will hold him back.
That is why I worry having him loose on the trails.
Now, from the rider's perspective. In the winter we ride along the roads in the development a lot, since the trails are icy and treacherous. We meet many folks hiking with their dogs. Leashed dogs, no problem. Loose dogs - some are well trained to voice, others not. We warn folks that the horses may kick. There is one horseback rider in the development who has her two dogs well trained. When we meet along the road, she has them lie down right next to her horse until we have passed. We always compliment her on her dogs. Wish all were like that, because many times our horses get surprised by dogs darting in and out of the bushes or something like that.
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 7:20 pm:
I do ride with dogs to the degree that one of my best riding buddies brings her dog where she is allowed to go.
I feel that there are pros and cons to riding with dogs.
If you encounter other dogs along the way that can be a big problem.
I've ridden through very difficult terrain only to have to go back to try to locate a dog who lagged behind, putting all of us in jeopardy, and also dealt with dogs who ran off after wildlife while we stumbled around in the dark trying to find them.
The worst fall that my most favorite horse has ever taken was due to a dog tripping him where he took a complete fall.
I've also had a "very well trained" dog who competes be stepped on because the dog has an obsessive compulsive disorder about chasing shadows.
And sometimes it is too hot, dusty, or the dogs are not in good enough condition to be out there.
I have been warned against letting animals drink from some waters when out on the trails when the season causes waters to be toxic.
How do you stop your dog from drinking if it is thirsty?
When I ride or go camping I am on sort of a get away and sometimes a mental vacation.
I don't think anyone should bring dogs on a trail ride without advising any and all riders in advance.
Bottom line for me is that dogs present one more unpredictable scenario to the ride and I would prefer that they stay home.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 7:57 pm:
I ride with my dogs and look for dogs that have some herding blood in them. They tend to just pay attention to us and leave others on the trail alone. So that would be my first concern. Your dog has to be well-behaved enough to ignore others on the trail. It must be able to respond to your voice while you are on the horse.
Now that said, our German Shepherd Border Collie is pretty obnoxious (with us only - he ignores other riders and their horses). He thinks he is the trail boss. He runs up and down between our horses making sure that everyone is moving and that the horses are listening to our commands. I can't say anything to my horse without him feeling that he has to reinforce it. So we spend most of the time yelling at him. He thinks he is doing a great job.
What I find interesting is that we have never encouraged him, and how much of this is bred in him. He doesn't think the horses should eat grass on the trail. No stopping. The only time I have found him helpful is when we are crossing a stream and my horse has decided that she doesn't want to go across. He will get in front and behind her, barking and insisting that she move on. When she sees the dog in the water she can tell how deep it is, and decides that maybe she will go across after all. ;-)
He has also been helpful with a loose horse, getting out in front of it.
While our horses generally find the dogs a pain in the ass, they actually use them on the trail and will be much better behaved when they are with us. The dogs are out front, and they assume that the boogie man will get the dogs first. So they are calmer. My horse will go over an obstacle easier if the dog has crossed it first.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 7:59 pm:
I have horses that kick, so all of my animals, horses and dogs, know that if someone is coming, we get off of the trail. That is a good habit to get into.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 8:08 pm:
Linda - My horse has seen 35 motorcyclists with no mufflers speed by at 50 mph, we had a helicopter land close by to pick up water to fight a fire and we were buzzed by another two prop helicopter, and last summer I had a train come by overhead as we were standing under the trelace. She bolted on that one and I was lucky enough to be off of her (couldn't hold onto her). She ran about 3 miles with the train chasing her (the tracks ran close to the trail). So we can do dogs, but anything with an engine now is terrifying. She is the only horse I have ever owned that actually will spook at an airplane that is a spec in the sky. ;-)
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 8, 2012 - 11:10 am:
Well, if you just want input here goes:
I have had friends' dogs along on trail that have never bothered the horses but I have also been rushed by loose dogs - those are more the problem than the ones that come along in my experience. If you ride up along properties with dogs they are defending their home and can be aggressive, if they happen to get out you may get into trouble. If you're out in the middle of nowhere you probably won't come across this issue.
As for vehicles, well, I live next to Sheriffs & Fire departments so the sirens don't bother my horses, but no matter how often they hear diesel engines those always do. I've had a train go overhead while I was bareback which spooked the hell out of my horse (and one that came alongside of me while bareback on my gelding a long time ago). They tend to just not like trains - I was able to calm them down without bolting. I've had low flying planes & helicopters - no problem (but I've got a small airport & a neighbor with a helicopter too so it may be that they're just used to hearing them. The more you can desensitize your horses to things the better but there is always the off chance that they can be startled by something that just pops out and surprises them. Be safe!
My mare saw her first cow, was terrified, scrambled, fell and broke her pelvis in her fright as she fought to get up. Freak accidents happen. She's okay 12 years later but always be safe, wear a helmet and be aware of your surroundings.
Happy trails!
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 8, 2012 - 2:05 pm:
In the end, we should probably take up something like crochet. It would be safer.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2012 - 1:52 pm:
Here is a role model for us:
https://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=qFP28ANXLLA&vq=medium
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