This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Resistance to Forward Movement: Go Problems »
  Discussion on Pissy dressage mare
Author Message
Member:
cathyb1

Posted on Saturday, Apr 25, 2009 - 1:36 am:

I have a bit of a tricky one. My 9yo mare is working at 4th level - her work is very good, half passes good, pirouettes coming along, flying changes ok. She had 6 months off last year after a leg injury that almost caused her to be put down, but she is sound now.
My problem is this: over the last summer, she has shown some very embarressing behaviour. She has always had a bit of a "thing" about walking - very tense, and either wont' walk forward, or walks then jogs. I have had to be very patient with the walk thing, as it has always been an issue with her, and it was improving significantly before she injured herself. I found the trick was to keep the leg on and make sure she walked forward. All good. Except that she started walking so not forward, in a sqatty sort of way, and spraying urine, every time I use the whip and even the leg! I have had lessons where she sprays during canter pirouettes. At times in walk, she really feels as though she is wanting to back up... my trainer thinks it is a hormone thing. Any ideas?
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Apr 25, 2009 - 2:43 am:

What was her injury? Could there possibly be some kind of connection? I've had a lot of mares, but never saw one that sprayed under pressure. I would think some blood work would show if it was related to hormones, but imo hormones get blamed for a lot of things when people don't know what else to blame or how to deal with the behavior.
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Saturday, Apr 25, 2009 - 7:37 am:

Cathy, I have no idea, but will ask a question:
When she is resistant to moving forward, is it a mental resistance (attitude, i.e., "pissyness," mental exhaustion) or an emotional resistance (fear) or a physical resistance (pain/uncomfortableness)? If someone can zero in on the cause of the resistance, I think that is the key.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Apr 25, 2009 - 10:04 am:

My trainer was just telling me about a mare that did this. His conclusion was she was hurting inside. Pretty vague I know.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Apr 25, 2009 - 10:57 am:

Does she do this if you are just out on a nice country trail ride? Or does she go forward willing then? Will she walk on a loose rein, ears pricked forward, interested in the world on a ride outside of the arena?

I am not a dressage rider, not in the sense you are talking, but I do use my arena a lot. My thoughts are she is associating this arena work with pain, physical or emotional, or both, so I would try taking a break from it and see how she is.

If she is also stalled more than let out like some show horses, she may have some social issues as well. Not trying to sound critical of her world as I don't know the situation, but rather trying to see it through her eyes and put another spin on what may be wrong.

DrO will most likely suggest a good vet exam, but I'd say go on some easy trail rides, no pressure on her to perform, and see what happens before spending on vet exams. And one ride may not tell you enough, it may take a couple if she is not used to "not performing"

Just my opinion.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Apr 26, 2009 - 12:02 am:

Does she cycle regularly? And is her uterus completely clean? That's one of the first things we checked with the above behaviour.
Jos
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 27, 2009 - 7:33 am:

Hello Cathy,
What breed is this horse and is there anything abnormal about her urination during other times or anything odd about her drinking habits?

Is this the only signs you have of unusual responses with interactions with other horses or people?
DrO
Member:
cathyb1

Posted on Monday, Apr 27, 2009 - 7:18 pm:

The mare is a hosteiner, big bodied and a very good type. She was a very friendly filly, but has become a fairly aloof mare as she has matured, and doesn't much care for the company of other horses or people. She is a grump! But that's ok, because that is just how she is. She is stabled at night, and in a paddock with a mate in the next paddock during the day. I take her out for a walk down the road, or in the paddock, every week or so. She doesn't work too hard,(2 days arena work for 40 mins max, a day off, a day lungeing or going for a walk, then 2 days in the arena again), as it has occurred to me that she may have a bit of pain somewhere, although neither vet nor chiropractor have been able to find any. Her saddle was refitted recently as she had lost some muscle during a 3 week break over Christmas. She had another 10 days off while the saddle was being adjusted, and there was no difference afterwards.
I reckon it stems from an early training problem - she has a very big walk, and I had a trainer in the early years that liked to make horses walk very, very short; tiny, slow steps. I reckon this screwed her walk up a lot. I also think I shortened her walk before the canter transition too much, and so she learned to suck back before the canter transition. I dealt with this at the time by abandoning the canter transition until I got the walk again; however, if her objective was to avoid the canter, I reinforced the behaviour by walking for as much as a whole circle before asking again for canter. These days, if she sucks back, I kick her on strongly and canter. This seems to be working, but is often accompanied by the urinating.
Her walk has improved a lot in the last 12 months, as for a while, we could only walk, for therapeutic reasons, following an injury. She cut the front of her hock badly, nicking the tendon sheath, which became infected. She was dead lame, and they spoke about putting her down, but we were able to nurse her through it. The joint was not affected. There is a bad scar, but I don't believe it bothers her too much. Sometimes she seems a bit stiff on warmup, but loosens up and moves well after about 5 mins. She doesn't favour this leg, so I suspect perhaps it is a foot thing, to do with shoeing...(she was shod a bit tight at the heel, but I have sorted this out now.)
It is mainly when I put the leg on when she doesn't want to go forward ie sucking back in walk and sometimes in canter, that she displays the behaviour in question - urinating, and almost squatting, she comes behind my leg so much. It isn't all the time, and it isn't every ride. I haven't monitored it on a calendar, and I should have, but it seems to be once a month or so that I see this. My trainer, who is an experienced and well respected dressage rider and trainer, reckons it is hormonal; that she is reacting towards my legs as though I was a stallion!(Eeeuuck!)
Dr. O, you ask about her other urination. I have noticed over the last year that she has become very wet in the stable. In the morning, I am removing a lot of wet shavings. A full barrow load. I put it down to the fact that, over summer,and indeed for a lot of the year here, the horses drink bore water, which is slightly brackish.
Her behaviour at times over this past summer on the ground has been fine, except for a great deal of winking when she is being hosed around the tail after work. At times, it has been like a sex show! Otherwise, she is pretty much just a grump, although at a recent clinic, she was calling out to the horse she travelled down with; and often when we are away, she becomes very soft and gooey with me, but I just put it down to being out of her usual environment,and feeling less secure.
So that is all I can think of to tell you. I haven't had any blood tests or checked out the state of her uterus or ovaries yet - I always assume it is something I am doing wrong, which is how I approached this until recently, when I eliminated a lot of possibilities such as saddle fit, pain(gave her bute), shoeing, feed (she doesn't get much, just some oat/grass hay and oat chaff to hold up her supplements, which are a shark cartilage powder, vitamin E and seaweed). So do you think that I might be looking at some sort of hormone issue here?
Member:
cathyb1

Posted on Monday, Apr 27, 2009 - 7:25 pm:

I should also mention that she doesn't show the pissiness/backwards behaviour in trot work. She is naturally a very forward horse - perhaps too much so. It is always to do with walk/canter, I believe. But the urinating is a new behaviour. She is a stressy sort of mare, as in she likes to get her work right; she has always had a tendency to rear if she feels trapped by the rein, but I now work around that, and make sure she never feels trapped. When she gets what you're asking for, she is happy. She actually works very well a lot of the time, and is a pleasure to ride then. So the urinating and squatty sort of walk is always associated with cantering, or the thought of cantering. But she doesn't always show this behaviour.
Horses, eh?
Member:
imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 6:30 am:

I can't say my half holsteiner does the pissy thing but definitely walk canter winds them up no end... and anticipating canter can be a problem. Is she a bit swan-necked too?

Imogen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 8:39 am:

Hmmmm it is possible this could be a medical problem. During the canter there is increased abdominal compression during the weight bearing phase and if the sphincters are not tight and the bladder full this might cause a squirt of urine as the horse accepts weight on the rear legs.

We also all have seen mares, particularly Arabs in my experience, that when they get excited may trot or canter squirting urine. I don't see anyway to differentiate medical from psychological with the information at this time...is there ever any evidence of urine on the legs from dribbling not associated with exercise?
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 10:14 am:

Dr. O,

I'm just curious. Were they purebred Arabians who you have seen do this?

The only mares who I have seen exhibit this behavior were pure or registered thoroughbreds or standardbreds, though I'm not saying that makes this behavior more likely in those breeds.

I've been on an Arabian drill team (purebreds only) with lots of mares AND a stallion on the team working right next to the mares.

I also have several friends who are or have been Arabian breeders. Arabians are the horses that I prefer to trail ride and camp with and on many of our rides the horses are all or mostly purebred Arabians.

I've never seen one of those mares do this.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 10:19 am:

Cathy,

Ok, I posted a long response and then re-read your first post. It sounds to me as though you somehow have to find some relaxed collected movements in this mare, to distinguish between a tension problem or something medical. When is she relaxed under saddle? How long did she have back to work before you started schooling upper level movements?
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 10:26 am:

As I bred Holsteiners for the longest time and thus seen a fair amount I can say they are very late horsesthat usually need to be 'muscled up' by training in the back/loins[they have an extraordinary flexibility and you rarely get power and flexibility born together]As we usually bred the mares at three years of age before really sending them to work, we often found a vulva[?] that wasn't quite straight and kept urine in often causing an infection of the uterus. They most of the time got a 'Caslick operation'done and when muscled uplater in life got better. Don't know if this was just vets being used to it or scientifically solid behaviour.
But an ultrasound of uterus and ovaries to see if all is well isn't expensive sooo.
Just my experience
Jos
PS Oh and yes very sensitive horses to that if under pressure overdo trying quite easily and thus stress out. They like to please[in general]
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 10:30 am:

Oh and Holsteiners [especially R line] carry a fair amount of Arab blood I often thought that was a ig reason for their character so why not something else to?
Jos
Member:
cathyb1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 8:40 pm:

Dr O, that is interesting; however, she doesn't squirt constantly during the canter work. It is more when I am telling her strongly to go forward, when she is sucking back in walk before the canter transition. The only times she has done it in canter is during the pirouette (but not all the time), when again, I am using a strong leg if she starts to suck back and not be forward in the pirouette.
She walks well at the beginning of a lesson, and at the end, and it really does seem to be something to do with the walk/canter. Which points to a training issue. I've got no problem with training through it, but her reaction of urinating, and slowing down and almost squatting is the most unusual reaction I've ever come across in my years of training horses! Although she is the first mare I've had at this level... so could it be a training issue exacerbated by hormones? I am thinking of giving her a month of over winter, bringing her back in slowly and putting her on Regumate in early spring, to see if this makes a difference, and probably get her girl's bits checked out. I am also wondering if perhaps I should put her in foal, (she is well bred, and a very good mare, if a bit screwy at the moment!), and start her again after the foal. If only they could talk!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 5:22 am:

Yes Vicki, registered Arabs but other breeds too. It is really not that rare and sometimes confused with estrus behavior. Occasionally you see reports on this site that describe such non-estrus behavior when mares meet new horses.

Cathy, at this point I don't think we have enough information to make a firm diagnosis as to why this is happening. The intermittent nature does not rule out physical causes. Hormonal problems would not often present with this as the only or even primary sign but I cannot rule it out.

Horses can talk in their own way: you just have to listen with a open yet critical ear. And while it might give you a place to start the notion should be tested. Is the squirting urine associated with a larger picture of a behavioral problem and resistance to training? If so I think your plan is logical though I would not consider breeding unless it is part of your goals for this horse. Regumate is logical if these episodes are associated with estrus. Hormones can certainly effect behavior particularly in the case of granulosa cell tumors, for more on this see Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Trouble Settling Mares & Stallion Infertility » Granulosa Cell Tumors in Mares.

If training and hormone manipulation fail you should have a thorough exam which should include observation of the event and possibly a look at the bladder before and after with ultrasound.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 9:16 pm:

Thanks for the information, Dr. O.
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC