| HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Teaching a Horse to Lunge » |
| Discussion on At Liberty training | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: leslie1 |
Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 5:21 pm: Super cool D! Sounds like you may have to trade in his horns for a halo It sounds like your doing superb Do you use voice commands to him? Here is what method works for me and Pumpkin--- I use long drawn out, softer spoken "Trrotttt". when coming from canter down to trot. And a short energeticly spoken "Trot" for upward trans. Punky has also learned to turn and go in the direction I point. But I have to point and then lower my arm otherwise its like "closing the door" to her, if I leave my arm up. She will still do it but you can see the confusion in her. Fun Stuff thou L |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 5:31 pm: Wow, that does sound like fun for both of you! None of my horses are that good, not even close, but we do dabble in "playing" at liberty.My only suggestion is maybe do what I do when riding: For a slow down/halt, I let my breath out with obvious sound. Letting my breath out quietly, means slow down, like with Cody, going from posting trot to nice jog, and a reminder to hold the jog. For a halt, I am noisier letting my breath out. (might be funny if I were in a show ring, huh?  ) Of course I am changing my body position too, going from riding to "not" riding. Cody is great at responding to it, I am sure he would respond on the ground too, he's my good boy! So try adding some obvious letting out of your breath...unless you are already doing some heavy breathing from all the canter work,  I bet Hank stops and goes "WHAT?!" He probably knows what you want, just enjoying watching you to see what funny moves you make the while he acts confused, hee hee hee!! Oh, and what about just saying "Trot" Easy, easy? Hubby is filming this, right? |
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: mrose |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 6:14 pm: OH SARA THAT'S IT!!!!! I always tried to go watch Hanks training and that's what he did high arm more speed...lower arm slow down THANK YOU!!! My memory needed a big jingle....can't wait to try itI'm the one that picks the legs up higher...not Angie  . I'm going to work on him picking up the same leg as me so we can work on a piaffe
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 6:58 pm: Jingle=jiggle swear I was born in a foreign country sometimes!
|
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 7:01 pm: Diane, I'm glad no one has started a thread on the differences in people's brains like Holly did with Arabs,Paints, etc. Have you seen those video clips on youtube of owners dancing with their dogs? Wouldn't that be a blast with your horse? |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 7:33 pm: Hank and I are going to dance! Is there a dance you prefer to see once we get it perfected?..No waltzes or the twist...He's to fat We'll start with the 2 step I think!
|
| Member: leslie1 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 7:59 pm: Leslie I don't think he is anticipating that at all. You see when he was trained he was taught all this stuff and was one of the best students the trainer had. That's good except he is VERY sensitive to body cues...moving away from pressure ect. In ridden work it has been one of my biggest challenges with him...IF I knew what I was doing we wouldn't have so many clashes...not his fault. I am not a good enough rider to be that light and it frustrates him.The trainer had him to the point of self carriage without a bit. If Denny got him he would wonder why I say he has horns...bet he would love him actually. I'm hoping doing this liberty work will help me become more sensitive... He's actually just fine....I'm the horned one in reality Hope you enjoy the movie! |
| Member: hollyw |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 10:11 pm: Unfortunately, no he is not around anymore, and I don't know where he is.If I take a step towards Hanks haunches he disengages them...his stop. Towards the middle/shoulder area it moves him out and on. The trainer always said when people try to start horses lunging they do it all wrong...you should not go after their hindend...it just makes them turn in (very true) You should move them away and on at the shoulder area...that is where the send comes from. When I take a step towards Hanks shoulder and turn in it brings him into me (inviting) Straight at him backs him. For the life of me the slow down cue is not sticking in my brain, I'm do remember when he first started Hank he would stoop real low to bring him down. I also remember the arm thing. That was all early in his training...don't remember when he progressed. I will have to play around with it. I did audit quite a few of his clinics when Hank was there. Hank was in quite a few of the clinics with the trainer. I didn't keep up with it as I should have...that was 9 yrs. ago. Hank has retained every bit of his training....I have only scratched the surface....he will tell me when I'm wrong...guaranteed! He always does I needed an arena to get back into this stuff and am really enjoying it. Was worth saving for a year!!!
|
| Member: hollyw |
|
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:53 am: Hmmm...I can see that posting about the "right way to lunge" could get as heated as the "Tea Party" thread! Holly is right in that horses are so sensitive that they even pick up on facial expressions, hunched shoulders, and other signals we are unaware of sending; and they learn to respond to what ever cues you or the trainer used, regardless of what is "right." One thing I've noticed with my horses is that I always look them in the eye if I want them to move out and away from me. If I DrOp my eyes, they will disengage and come in to me. If they are reluctant to move forward, I position myself so I'm behind their shoulder if they are on a lunge line, then ask for the gait I want verbally or with the lunge whip or arm. The lunge whip is used as an extension of my arm when working with a young or untrained horse until they learn to work "on their own." I think that as you work more with Hank, you'll figure out the cues he responds best to, or he'll learn what you want with whatever cues you give. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 7:28 am: Holly how do you disengage the hip? I know all of this carries over to riding. disengagement of the hip is what the "one rein stop" is right??? Hank has a wonderful one rein stop."The middle zone" loin to neck is what moves them on...when riding you use leg pressure there for forward, or turning...so the on ground pressure points are suppose to carry over to riding. AS far as Hank goes they do. This is where our problem lies when I ride him, he is so in tune to those cues if I have more "pressure" on one leg (riding uneven) he moves away from it. We do beautiful leg yields even tho I wasn't aware I asked for it! Turn on the haunches...just takes a tap behind the girth. VERY sensitive to my every body movement... The only people that can get along with Hank as far as riding is upper level trainers...they LOVE him. Me well, I'm still learning, and do quite a few things wrong. He has come to a truce with me, but he will never be a beginners horse even intermediate can struggle with him. I'm somewhere in between, thus our problems I did take lessons when I found out Hank would rather kill me then put up with my ignorance. It helped alot. The trainer I took him to is one of the best riders I have ever seen. He told me Hank demands to be ridden correctly...this was his training. I learned a lot in those lessons and was able to get good enough for our "truce" This trainer was so impressed with Hank he started having the guy that "broke" him start all of his young ones. Anyway I hope I can continue to learn "his language" with this liberty work. I don't think I will be able to change the cues he knows...I have to figure them out! |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 8:09 am: Diane,Hank reminds me of a horse I rode when I went to buy Willow. This man, who went on to be a friend and my mentor, had Qtr/Arab crossed mares, and told me if I could ride one of them, I could buy one. Well, how hard could it be? I was 20 something, and knew it all...except how to ride a finally tuned horse! After not making the 8 second buzzer, on a sweet mare named Maggie, I spent hours listening to him explain the finer points of riding! I wish he was still here with us, I'd love to explain Hank to him, and get his thoughts for you, for the sake of keeping your neck intack, lol! Holly, Tango, as you and lots of HA'ers know, is super sensitive. If I even THINK about moving towards his hip, he will stop and turn and face me. IF I also point my other arm for direction, he will move off and start his circle. It's a really fine line for him, stop and face me, vs go. Now you've got me wondering though...am I still at his hip for driving him forward, or am I stepping towards his shoulder more than I think? Never saw myself at work, funny, if we were to be recorded, I wonder if we are doing what we think we are doing? Think I will work with Willow this afternoon; she is also sensitive, but more attentive than Tango. I am guessing with all of my horses, the toughest thing to do is to get a stop on the circle, WITHOUT having them turn in a face me on the lunge line or at liberty. O.K., class: Todays assignment: figure out how are body language is affecting what we ask our horses to do and their responses. On the ground only for this week.  Sara.... What are we going to do with this problem of yours, mixing me and Diane's posts up all the time?? I saw the "Angie, you pick YOUR legs up higher?" and went "WHAT?!?!" OMG, what did I say??? Me Yooper, with crazy Tango. Diane, snake lady meter reader, with crazy Hank. Sorry Diane, toooo much sleep last night!
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 8:35 am: Perfect description Angie....maybe that will help Sara remember. You got me thinking about horses stopping on the lunge or at liberty without turning in HMMMM. I don't think I've ever seen that. (not sure tho.) In Hank's training he is always suppose to face me...stay put....unless I invite him in. To do that I step towards his poll then turn my shoulder/body in (at liberty) When on line a light tug works too. I haven't fooled with this stuff much over the years, because Hank is so light...my goal has been to make him a little less sensitive I really wasn't up to the task of his reactions. Now that my knee is better, my ribs are cured, Hanks hooves don't hurt (for now) it's time I learned "the language" to the best of my ability anyway...should be interesting! Can't wait to "play" today. It's funny Hank has actually been looking forward to it too. When I go out to get him with the halter and say come on he runs right up to me...leaving the GRASS behind. He must be enjoying it too, so that's encouraging anyway. The tempramental, sensitive Hank has away of showing his displeasure, which is good, but quite a challenge to me! I would be very interested in what other people do, I KNOW my memory is lacking and needs a jiggle once in awhile...I love those A-HA moments! |
| Member: hollyw |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 9:45 am: It's so edifying when our horses WANT to be with us, isn't it? Gives warm fuzzies Being able to see videos of our individual groundwork and our horses' responses would be very telling . . . and I'm positive that the more the horse has been around us, the more cued-in it is to our habitual movements. Horse's learn quickly how to avoid the emotional pressure body language can convey to them. I position myself opposite the girth for getting the horse ready to move, but move toward the hip to get the horse to go forward. To disengage, I take a step back and sometimes, simultaneously to the side (toward the horse's back end), but the stepping back or leaning back or caving in my stomach as if I'm going to back up is what gives my horse's permission to turn in and face and disengage. Sometimes I step back, to the side (if the horse is moving toward the right, I would move slightly to the left and this opens the door for the horse to turn in) and then, after the horse faces me, take a step forward with my palms facing out (toward the horse's face/chest) to get it to lean or move back. I don't want the horse walking toward me unless I ask. A lot depends on how the horse is trained. An untrained horse will operate off of what it knows from herd body language. Moving the shoulder away or moving the haunches away is caused by very subtle, minute differences in body language: a matter of fractions of an inch. I can picture a pissy mare curling her nostril, shifting her ears back, and sticking out her nose toward another horse's point of shoulder . . . and seeing that other horse turn on the haunches and walk away, or stop and stay put, or turn tail toward the pissy horse and back up kicking. I can picture that same pissy mare doing the same thing more toward the barrel and point of hip and seeing the other horse turn and move off . . . not disengage the hip and face the pissy horse . . . so I think the answer has to be in the consistency of our movements, whether or not the horse respects us, the comfort level of the horse when with us, the amount of practice and training . . . Don't have a video camera here. There are lots of YouTube videos of free longeing and liberty work with untrained and trained horses . . . I am at a disadvantage with dial-up, but it would be interesting to see and hear about the different methods presented and the varied responses from the horses. Basically, do whatever works best to get what you want and to keep your horse relaxed, happy, and safe. |
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: mrose |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 3:03 pm: WELL we started out on the lunge line and I found the slow down cue!!! he downward transitioned when I stepped back and over. Worked consistently. Didn't work at liberty, but I did not have his full attention today He did pretty well, when WE were cantering down the middle I lost him...He took off like a wild Banshee! We recovered and we "hooked up" again, keeping his mind on me was a chore today, but he did for the most part. SO we tried the free lunging. Very eratic lost him 3 times! I could not get him down free lunging...but hey this is only our 2nd day we'll get there. I forgot to take the bridle down so against my better judgement I rode with just the halter. I can say with no doubt this ground work is helping our ridden work. He was perfect under saddle, very responsive to the lightest shift. I guess he always has been...I'm learning something maybe! Overall he was very good. I took a pic when we were done and he just had the What the he$$ look on. 
|
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 4:21 pm: Hank looks great! He looks so healthy and shiny. So glad the two of you are able to have so much fun after all the frustrations you've had.
|
| Member: ajudson1 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 7:29 pm: Angie YEA!!!! Isn't it a nice feeling when you feel you accomplished something. It is fun!The guy who broke Hank had a mare up there that sounds similar to Tango. Once he taught her how to move from pressure and come in he did everything to her sitting on a fence..blanket on blanket off. Throw a rope over her ect. She got over her fear rather quickly. From the ground he was always throwing the rope up and over her. Maybe Hank and Tango will loose their horns this year and molt into good boys P.S. Sara, Hank and I did dance today, wasn't bad either...to Benny and the JETS
|
| Member: sodmonst |
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 8:48 pm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Vy-qAMEBI&feature=related
|
| Member: ajudson1 |
|
| Member: stek |
Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 1:09 pm: Very interesting thread. I agree that the horse will learn to respond to whatever cue the handler is using. But I think some things are easier for the horse to pick up than others.I have been watching a lot of Clinton Anderson lately and one thing I just don't get is the 'point to send the horse away' thing. Pretty much every time I see people using this for the first time in a clinic, the horse wants to go backwards away from the hand thrown up in front of them. Results IMO in quite a bit of confusion for the horse before they finally get it, with the handler whacking the horse on the side of the neck and the horse looking at them like 'Whaaaaaaaaat???' My own method to start a horse moving off is to step to the hindquarters, putting the least amount of pressure from just using eyes up through a tap on the rear to get them to step off. This is essentially closing the door behind the horse and encouraging them to move through the open door in front of them. Then the instant I get forward motion I move the pressure up to the girth to send them out on the circle, 99% of the time just using eyes/body language. While lunging I imaging the horse and I make up a piece of pie, I am the pointy end and the horse is the crust. Consistent light pressure at the girth = keep the same gate forward. Increased pressure just behind the girth = speed up, Decreased pressure = slow down but hold your gait, Stepping back to the hindquarters = bring the circle in, Stepping forward to the shoulder + pressure = make the circle bigger Stepping forward to the shoulder - pressure = downward transition Stepping forward to the head = turn in to me Stepping forward to the neck + increased pressure = turn to the outside Etc etc etc. Anyway you see where I am going with this. Different sections of the horse and different intensities of pressure are used to communicate. For me, even horses that haven't been lunged before or that have been taught other ways pick up on this body position language really quickly. I also use a lot of verbal cues, walk, trot, canter and whoa and then add 'easy' or 'up' to increase or decrease speed of the gait. E.g., trot up means walk faster, trot easy means walk slower. I use these in combination with the body language so the horse also knows the verbal cue, so I can use the verbal cue on a horse being started under saddle and they have some idea what I mean. Well anyway, just wanted to share what works for me
|
| Member: stek |
|
| Member: hollyw |
|
| Member: stek |
|
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 4:33 pm: Yes Hank always has been too well trained for me, and your right it did make me a much better rider than I was..have a long way to go tho!!!OK before I go play with the boy, am I understanding this??? A step towards his hindquarters should slow him down?? I haven't started many horses on the lunge line, so this could be pure ignorance, but I have seen people take the lounge whip and try to get them to go forward by "going after" the hind end. Unless the horse already knew how to lunge, repeatedly the horse would turn in... to me anyway that only makes sense...move the part of the body away that the pressure is being applied to??? I am going to try it with Hank today. Maybe if I stay up more towards his gaskin I know if I take a step towards the hip he'll disengage and stop immediately....unless he's being an A$$ Be Be Be Benny and Jets....he loves it! |
| Member: stek |
Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 5:12 pm: Diane I wouldn't say that (at least not how I use it). If you get too far behind him (imagine the pie shape) he will likely turn into the center because there isn't anything holding him out. Your body position in relationship to him is more about making the circle bigger/smaller/having him turn in/out. The intensity of your energy is what drives his speed.If I cue a horse to move off from behind, the very instant they move off I move the pressure up towards the girth to send them out on the circle. If I stayed behind them I would expect the butt to go away and the front end to come in, which is what you see when people try to drive only the butt and never adjust where they are cueing. I drive from the hind end only for a millisecond, then move the pressure up on their body. Ann, how does the horse learn what you mean by pointing? It's safe to assume they don't automatically know what it means, right? I guess that's what I don't understand about how the pointing thing works. Are you pointing then following that with pressure from behind or ??? If I point to another person, I can use the verbal 'look over there, where I'm pointing' and that gets them to understand what the point gesture means. So what tells the horse that? I don't mean to be honery, just trying to understand a different method 
|
| Member: leslie1 |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 9:38 pm: I understand what you mean Ann.and written much better than I could. Hank and I did the barrel pattern today, we danced, BUT the most interesting thing we did today was I taught him how to stay, well I didn't teach him he KNEW exactly what I wanted! I had him follow me to the middle of the arena..stopped, here I wanted him to stand while I did whatever. Once stopped, I turned to his head rubbed him and walked away, while he watched me...the boy didn't move his feet an inch. I walked around the whole arena. Came back, invited him back in and off we went WOW. So I thought maybe this was a fluke, but it wasn't! We did it several more times. His free lunging is getting so much better. Today we didn't have to have a chat about going left. I got it everytime I asked!! I did loose him once going right, but got him right back and that was it. I can hardly believe we have the transitions very good now especially going right. Going left really seems to make him weird, like he's panicky. I can hold him on the circle now, but getting him to transition down is very hard...I did feel a break through today tho...it's coming! Hank really is a smart horse and catches on quickly. Any opinions why going left makes him uneasy? He really gets a look of panic or fear or something like that in his eye...it's strange. I'm not pushing the issue. After he GALLOPED a couple rounds I brought him in and told him how good he was. The next couple times he seemed to start relaxing a little, Soon as I got half a circle of trot, I again brought him in and praised him...Somethings up going left. I know what I think it is but, would love your opinions
|
| Member: ajudson1 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 10:47 pm: Angie We had a day like that yesterday. I had a hard time keeping his attention on me. One thing I am learning and have learned over the years with Hank is frustration gets me nowhere. We cut the session short and he was fine, actually wonderful today.I had been horse shopping all winter, I couldn't stand the thoughts of this mental thing with him again, I love him to death, but that boy can try me! Then I remember the trainer, 2nd one I took lessons from telling me EVERYTHING was my fault HMMMMMM. At first it kind of ticked me off! Actually quite awhile (he was a good friend) When I had a lesson everybody at the barn made sure they were there to watch (we were amusing). One day we were practicing canter circles, I was doing everything wrong as usual..while "dave" was trying to tell me what to do. FINALLY Hank and I did a perfect circle!!! We are talking an hour here at least! When I was going to make the 2nd circle the trainer said STOP! We did, I said what??? He said I didn't want you to go any further or you'd screw it up We got a standing ovation from the crowd . I changed my lessons to 9pm at night when the barn was closed! The point is I guess Hank and I are going back to the beginning, I need to work with him not against him. He really is a good boy, a little too smart. I think this is going to be OUR summer! He's ready and I'm ready! That trainer always said I could read a horse better than anyone he knows...even if my riding sucked! |
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 6:26 am: Ann very well said. Hank is a different horse now that he is focusing, rather than blowing off steam. He don't even look at the grass he can get at. The 1st day he did and hasn't since. I can get his nose to a barrel, yesterday we were able to do a circle around it with his nose on it. Took 2 tries, but he did it.
|
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 7:14 am: Ann,Thank you. Just curious, is what you do following the teaching of any one specific who may have a book out? Or DVD? See, I was following Clinton Anderson, and I think it was the wrong way to start Tango. So now I am starting over, and thinking more Parelli, although I can't say I follow them much, just what I know from seeing them on tv. Trying to make it fun, Tango is not DUMB, he is afraid. He is so curious, and I need to play upon that. Diane, No wonder Sara confuses us, we have similar horses, similar troubles with them, and were thinking alike with horse shopping, I had mailed Denny and told him I could NOT handle another summer of doing the same thing with Tango, I had NO DRIVE left in me. I was ready to sell 3 horses, keep one, shop for one husband proof horse, and go back to just riding. With much less thinking involved! Then the Equine Behaviourist had a frightened horse on his show, and said it would be irresponsible to sell a horse like Tango...ya know, he'd get passed around most likely, maybe hurt someone. Hmmm.... My hoof guru friend e-mailed me a few days ago, and said I needed a new perspective with Tango, and suggested I have someone else get involved. And whadda know, here we have "Liberty Training" with you and Hank! Can't wait to get started again today. I like that; I'll use my mind to capture his mind. BTW, Diane, loved that you got a standing ovation, good job girl,
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: mrose |
|
| Member: stek |
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 11:08 am: Thanks for the explanation above Ann, that makes a lot more sense to me. So it seems with the pointing/looking method you are still driving from behind initially to get the desired response.The pointing is a secondary cue that they learn to associate with the right response (just like a verbal cue of 'walk on', or plow horses learning Gee and Haw for turning right and left), not the primary cue that results in the behavior. Then once they have learned to associate the secondary cue you could use it alone. I agree that everything you can do on the ground to engage the mind is useful work; there is so much you can do with a young horse to develop that mental bond before you ever back them! Lungeing shouldn't be about burning calories, it should be about engaging the brain. Diane glad to hear things are going so well with Hank, it will be really interesting to hear the details as you transition the relationship building you're doing to mounted work! But don't feel like you have to be in a hurry to make it happen riding either, the more time you spend on the ground with him the better.
|
| Member: dove2 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 2:52 pm: You may not believe this but Hank learned how to "fake spook" because he knew it scared the crap out of me(he is evil in a way). I finally mastered it, when I decided to ignore it and do whatever we were in the middle of. He's not a spook!! He's solid as rock, but he knows how to unnerve me. As we are working through this liberty, the respect has returned completely! I too recommend the 7 games as an agenda to move on to other things...you do not have to follow the PNH method...I don't. The games are such a good basic training program it puts it all there that you need once they learn them IMHO Dove I have to wonder if your mare hasn't learned the "fake spook"
|
| Member: dove2 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 5:08 pm: Dove personally I think she sounds a bit like Hank. The first day we started back to ground work I had him on the lunge line and TWICE I saw back hooves aimed at me...do I think it is sugar doing this NO!! Hank knows if he can unerve me on the ground or under saddle he has the "upper hand" and I wither. Not anymore!!! The day the back hooves came flying in my direction the boy got a work out. The second time he got a much bigger workout. To me anyway that is one major sign of disrespect. Can't say I didn't mumble a few things under my breath tho!! The feet stay on the ground now and he is VERY attentive, I have not had any "fake spooks" or seen any back hooves since. I didn't loose my cool or get scared we just went back to work. He is still on grass 24/7. He is not a nut case anymore actually just the opposite! I am doing mostly ground work with him so we can become better partners in the saddle, but the other day I did ride him with just the halter(forgot my bridle)and I could feel the focus he had on me. It was one of the best rides we've had in along time Maybe you should send your mare to a trainer if you or your daughter are feeling "over faced" It does sound as if she "has your number" no disrespect implied! As I am working through this myself
|
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 5:40 pm: Are you all SURE those aren't Arabians you're working with? Boy, have I seen some of those tricks. It's called I can't hear you because I'm busy spooking. I've had several horses that do the jigging and the spooking and the side passing, etc. Mostly it's been because they don't want to listen and do what they've been asked. Also, at least with the stallions, they do things just to make sure you are really "their boss." I always thought I should have a sheet that said "you're not the boss of me!" on it for my one stallion. He was never mean, but tricky, smart, and had a million ways to get out of doing what he was supposed to do; or he'd do it, but not quite right, even though he knew what right was. He always challanged me. Finally, he came around and is one of the best horses I've ever ridden. But, it took a lot of work and understanding on both our parts. Going back to ground work and basics, DrOpping back a notch then going ahead again, really seemed to help. After reading all this I'm dying to get out and work with AJ, who used to be my problem child. I've been stuck inside working all day; maybe this evening. I love all this. You guys are great! Keep it up. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 5:46 pm: O.k., this is interesting. One of the first books I ever bought, on horse training, was called "Natural Horse-Man-Ship" by Pat Parelli. I just pulled it off the shelf, don't see the "7 games" but I am going to review it.There must be some method to get Mr. Sensitive to be Mr. Thinker, and this may be it. Sounds like he's not the only one that needs help here, huh Dove? Boy, do I know about a spooky horse getting my heart rate up, lol! Sara, Tango will be 7 on Saturday, and I do think he is showing signs of growing up, but a long ways to go yet. I am holding on to the belief he will be an awesome horse at some point..IF IF IF...we can get his confidence up. He's just such a character, so loveable. The only time I feel anger with any of my horses is when trying to trim & I've done too many hoofs in one day. And the horse decides they've had enough too! That is my fear of doing something wrong yet, and thankfully it's gotten better for me, and I know how to pace myself. I have a hard time being angry at a horse trying to understand what I am asking when "training." Although Tango has made me cry! Then he comes over and "snuffles" my cap, and gets me laughing...told ya he's a character! Like a big lab puppy. (LaB, not LaP, )
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 6:30 pm: Angie if you google Parelli seven games many hits will come up. my hard one is the sideways game. The squeeze game is a good one for spooks too. That's what I did to Hank when he was squirming at the new black, grunting, moving rocks on the otherside of the fence(cows). They really had their position down where he couldn't make them out well. Frankly I almost just went to the otherside of the arena instead of dealing with it Instead I decided no more chickening out (on my part) So I set a barrel and a couple of tubes and made a lane right next to the cows. First time through he was rather quick. but after a couple times(sending him...not leading) he didn't even look at them. That's the day I rode him with the halter....right down that lane, didn't flinch . Hank thrives on my fear! Sara he does have arab in him AND TB now you know what I'm dealing with
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: dove2 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 11:20 pm: Dove I'm no trainer, but I can tell you what works with Hank. When the hooves went flying he was on the lunge line, he was asserting his displeasure with work so work we did. Since we were lunging when he did this I kept him going until he was paying attention to me. He got a very good workout. Both trainers I used always said keep their feet moving when misbehaving...whether ridden or on the ground.I would suggest continuing doing whatever you are doing when the "issue" shows up, because it would seem they are trying to make us "quit it" they don't want to Switching to something else is just what they want. If you study any NH programs they suggest not repeating any certain thing more than 5 times if they have done it right. EX don't circle more than 5 times one way if they did what you want. I have seen horses have this stuff "drilled" in their heads and it can make them overly sensitive. Drills are not good. As far as the "stick" Hank don't(didn't) like a whip either. WHY? he's never had a whip used on him in his life...so it must have scared him. I do keep a whip in my arena but never use it....it was laying buried in the mud Yesterday I decided to bring it out of the mud and see if he could get over that silly fear..so we played the friendly game with it...they do need to face their fears as do we. It took a total of 2 mins for him to relax. I had him standing in the middle of the arena, without a lead, rubbing him all over with it, swinging it over his head...he could have left. I kept the whip in my hand for that whole session, he didn't even notice it anymore. The Parelli guy that broke Hank said that once they know the games, you can play all 7 of them bringing them in from pasture EX sideways game at the gate....send through the gate...toss rope on them as leading them in(friendly) game ect. use your own imagination....we do this. I don't "play" the games anymore so to speak I have been utilizing what he's learned from them, for every part of his liberty work. As far as spooking, i really suggest something along the "squeeze game" as I did with Hank and the cows. By the way if you have seen pictures of my arena you may have noticed a road goes right by there, before I started back on this ground training if a vehicle went by he would have a fit..rear, spook act stupid and YES it was an act...because it scared me, I got to the point I didn't want to ride him down there(he knew it) He does not even look when a vehicle goes by now. When I decided to ride the other day with the halter....here came a school bus (his favorite) I thought to myself this will be a test and I hope My ribs don't get broke again!(but did not tense up...I actually trusted him at this point) He didn't even raise his head, just kept doing what I was asking! This stuff really has me excited...sorry for being so long winded..This is what is working for HANK I'm sure others have suggestions , but I think it just come down to forming a trusting, confident(my problem) relationship with your horse. You can be their friend but you also have to be the leader...easier said then done with some
|
| Member: dove2 |
|
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 2:20 pm: So has anyone been "playing" with their horses? I'm having withdrawl. The weather turned on us and I haven't been able to do anything. Tomorrow looks promising tho. I'll be curious if Hank is still "in tune" we were making good progress...he is also locked up in the dry pen now so should be full of energy. I'd love to hear reports of how training is going with any of you.... I need all the help I can get
|
| Member: dres |
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 2:52 pm: Yes, Diane been working with my 3 year old all week on thinking and not reacting .. He has a lot of TB in him and of course a lot of Ap , so he can be a little challenging.. hum? two days ago in asking for a change in direction he 'over reacted' and blew up and up and up.. would not let him get in front of me , used the fence to help with that.. so he reared straight up !@ and then buckled and fell / rolled to the ground.. You should have seen the look on his face.! What happened how did you do that mom?! He got up slowly and we continued with change of direction with out a huge reaction..Today , the lights are shining in his wee head.. he was a thinker not a reactor for most of the task.. So Trainer upped the ask and we asked for calm canter work / head down / transitions. * remember this is all on a loose lunge line never pulling * .. WE / HE GOTS IT.. he was soft in the eye/ soft in the body .. actually now his happy place is to move with nose to the ground with a ear and eye on ME ! Before he refused to acknowledge i or trainer were there! He will have tomorrow off to think and absorb  .. I hope when I bring him out on Monday that we will start where we left off .. thinking not reacting.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 5:01 pm: Ann THANKS, It's so funny when they "act up" fall down and think magical mom did it to them Sometimes they even look a little embarrassed. I hope hank has been thinking(good thoughts) and absorbing the last few days. IF I am able to "play" tomorrow I want to try the poles at liberty...got a feeling I may loose him on lead changes....we'll see. Thanks again for the laugh and report! Angie, the sun is shining but that WIND! I refuse to even go outside unless I have to... hoping at least it will dry my arena up enough to use tomorrow Was hoping you were able to work Tango, he is so much like Hank! Actually is sounds like quite a few people own horses like them
|
| Member: dres |
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 6:05 pm: 100 DEGREES right now.. hot HOT HOT... On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 7:17 pm: Ann,Send me a few degrees of HEAT, I'll send you some cool wind, K? The hour by hour weather forecast says the windchill will be in the teens tonight. Better move the tomatoe plants from the barn, to the tack room...geez, do I have to turn the heater on too? Diane, I went out once for mid day feeding; got my son to put hay out this morning, and he's putting out the bale for tonight. I just about got blown away! He's working on his "project" a Bronco for mudding, and I made chili for him and his friend. They were very grateful for very hot food! I figured if they are out there, dressed for the cold, I can stay in. Guess I will have to wash the insulated coveralls, and insulated flannel shirts again..sigh. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 9:59 pm: I have another question that has been rumbling around my mind for years. Since my problems with Hank tend to revolve around Lack of trust(which is really a lack of confidence) on my part I would like your thoughts on this.When both the trainers I used started working together they were a little competetive with each other. BOTH of them told me I had to learn to trust Hank, which was very hard because he knew how to "trip my trigger" and I didn't know how to handle it. When asked how can I go about learning how to do that, I got 2 different ans. Both of them were riding green horses in the indoor arena one day (with the sliding doors open) The Non Parelli trainer (who will now be NPT) was riding Hank. The PNH guy was riding my friends horse who was about as far along in training as Hank (Hank had a little more refinement under his belt) But both were still quite green. Both Hank and Jazzy wanted to go out the big sliding doors at the end of the arena. This is how it went and the outcome...was very interesting! First the PNH guy went and showed how he handles these type of situations(wanting to run out the open doors) He was going around the arena at the trot and Jazzy really wanted to leave out those doors, The PNH trainer said he wasn't going to stop her if she did. After about 2 rounds that mare took off out those doors like a jet We all looked at each other astounded. After a few minutes in came the PNH guy on Jazzy and started around the arena again, got down by the door, and took off again out it Once back in we had to ask him why he was letting her do that??? He said he was making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, so when she ran outside he worked her hard outside the door so she would think being inside wasn't so bad. He said he was letting her write her own book. In the end she didn't bolt out the door. Next up NPH trainer on Hank. He kept his leg on and worked Hank past the door instead of letting him bolt out. You could tell Hank wanted to go, but wasn't allowed. It didn't take long and Hank wasn't "leaning" to get out the doors. This trainer said he thinks you have to "write the book for the horse and teach him how to read it." (for some reason this quote has stayed in my head and makes good sense. Both horses leaned not to try to bolt out the door. As I had watched it all unfold the I thought the NPH trainer did better. However what do you think is the better way for the horse? One let's them make the mistake and corrected it. The other didn't allow the mistake to happen in the first place. Very differing concepts...no wonder I'm confused! The NPH trainer really got into the seven games and thought it was a wonderful way to start horses. This stopping the mistake before it happened was one thing he stood by tho. |
| Member: hollyw |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: maggienm |
|
| Member: maggienm |
|
| Member: maggienm |
|
| Member: hollyw |
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 6:42 am: Hi, Lori,I learned how to get an inside turn by pushing the first horse I trained over the top of my homemade round pen. I didn't realize what I was doing wrong until after that experience. Yeah . . . I learned how to do it. Say that the horse is going to the left . . . I step toward the left hand side of the pen as I'm also stepping back. My move to the left is "blocking" the forward movement of the horse, and my stepping back is saying, "You can come toward me for a turn; I'm opening the door; I'm giving you space." If the horse makes an outside turn, I hurry it up to block the forward movement to the right and turn the horse to the OUTSIDE by stepping toward the right and TOWARD the horse's shoulder, let him make that OUTSIDE turn and go a ways . . . and then ask for an INSIDE turn again. Once the horse makes the inside turn correctly, let him continue around the pen a couple of times without pushing . It may help to use a longe line AND body language at first, because you can add a pull to the lead to help the horse recognize the body language. Whenever the horse responds to the cues correctly, give him time to continue around the pen and think about it a bit. It's the asking for OUTSIDE turns combined with INSIDE turns that helps the horse to see the difference between our cues, and it's the quickness of our catching him quickly when he makes the wrong decision that helps set the scene for teaching the correct cue. |
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: hollyw |
|
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 10:35 am: Beautiful day here also, after a frosty night. Rain coming back tomorrow, My mind is full of ideas to try today! From your questions and observations, and I watched 3 recorded episodes of Parelli, Linda's "riding with fluidity." Diane, don't know if you've ever watched that, but I thought of you and Hank, and what I want to try riding today. Linda showed so many ways of being part of your horses movement. We really get in our horses way a lot more than we realize! And her methods would be funny to see in a dressage class, seems to go against the "norm" as far as sitting up straight and tall, heels down, what we always hear. 'Nways, to address what you witnessed with the 2 trainers, when she had riders on in the round pen, the horse was allowed to do the wrong thing, like stop, or even grab a bit of grass. I was thinking "NO NO NO" I would not do that. BUT, she said that it's not about getting in a fight (we are talking young horses here)going so far as to pet the horse, and let the horse briefly stop/eat, whatever. Then, asking again for movement. The horses did stay calm. They weren't yanked on, kicked to keep going, etc. The rider MIRRORED what the horse was doing, thus gaining trust, and building on the trust. (Great concept there) If at any time a horse were to speed up, or you'd feel in danger, she used the one rein stop. My question is, with the 2 trainers, why not just SHUT the doors? What did they set up a situation with 2 green horses, that would result in undesirable behavior? Plenty of time in the future for that, we all know horses will find something to react to! If anyone has the DVD on "fluidity" please add your input...I hate to try to quote what I just watched and mess it up; but it's worth adding here. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 5:15 pm: I am so glad I started this thread. You would not believe what a help it has been! I found one mistake I have been making with our liberty training . Today Hank was very attentive again even with a few days off. We trotted the poles and I really thought he would leave on the tight end turns...especially to the outside. He was perfect. We practiced staying put...went wonderfully, we did many different play things and he was great. Next the free lunging (here I want to thank you ALL for your explanations) We have all three transitions down pretty good both ways. I NEVER EVER thought I would be able to get Hank to walk on a lunge line or at liberty (he does it both ways now on line and free)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You guys were right in your explanations.THANK YOU! The mistake I have made is, the arena is about the size of 2 round pens, when we free lunge OR lunge on line I always do it at the near side. Today we went up to the far side to try free lunging and I could NOT keep that boy with me Remembering everything you guys had written I did get a couple circles out of him...rewarded him and quit that on a good note...thinking Hank was leaving. We played a few more games (I do use the whole arena for them) Thinking Hank returned SHEW! NOW the riding Part. The TRUST issues embedded in me. We walked, trotted a bit and since this Liberty training really has got me AND Hank thinking I realized just how bad I braced with the reins I honestly am not a rein bracer on other horses I trust. I grab those reins on Hank and just wait for the fake spook, the leap through the air(that comes from nowhere) the I DO NOT want to do that attitude!!! He has scared the crap out of me on way too many occasions We have been totally out of control for years. That's why I have been horse shopping. I do not need to horse shop any longer! I am getting a new horse right now and I LOVE him!! Anyway back to the rein bracing, once I realized just how bad I was, I decided to trust him, he had given me no reason not to. SOO I let the reins loose and am now trying to ride with just body language, seat and legs. (I DO NOT have a good independent seat) and I'm sure soon my questions will soon focus on this. Once I quit bracing what a change in Hank I can't even describe it, but it was a wonderful feeling! SOOO I decided to get brave and go on the road (some of you may remember he almost killed me in traffic last year) He is traffic broke actually very well. I am not on the other hand! Out the arena up the hill..that I always brace the reins so he won't buck me off and throw a fit. Guess what NO bracing...a nice WALK up the hill...he was always just fighting my bracing going up it... A HA moment! Out on the road he was SOOOOOOOOOO good going up the road, I can here a car coming fast...heart starts beating out of my chest, start bracing, panic is welling up. Mr. sensitive is going to react to this I know, and throw us out in front of the car. I have time...BREATHE, release reins, trust, put legs back on... car went by and he didn't blink an eye!!!! We encountered 4 more cars on our short ride out...next challenge the turn for home... We almost always have to prance out of control on the way home...I brace more...he prances more...it's a battle I have been trying to win for years, and have not for the most part. On the way home is when he always acts like an idiot...if a car goes by he will throw himself (and me) through the air. If a fly lights on him he will throw his head like an idiot. If a blade of grass blows in the wind he will jump sideways 20 ft (fake spook) With every step he gets more wound up...I brace and fight,legs automatically come off...do not trust. All the way up the road I am thinking about this for out ride back towards home. I decide I am going to TRUST him to do the right thing. We only went about half a mile...Sam was screaming bloody murder for him. We turned, right in the turn the pace picked up...DO NOT BRACE!!! He came out of the turn, put his head where it belonged and WALKED like a good boy. In retrospect into the turn he was just waiting for my brace and panic...I'm trained that way He did a very nice flat footed walk all the way to the driveway..I did brace once when a car went by, I guess old habits die hard. We continued past our driveway and kept going I was enjoying him so much. We went about another half mile the opposite way which is down a big hill and then up...The one you can see in the pics of my arena. MY God he was soooo good he actually seemed to be enjoying himself too. No rushing up the hill, no fighting down the hill. This "ground work" is going to be our salvation I think. He is starting to be the horse I knew he was. I have had the problems!!! Thanks again and like it or not you will be hearing more of our transition from bad boy to good boy with a THINKING MOM
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 5:44 pm: PS Please feel free to throw any thoughts my way on this stuff it really helps me a lot!Anyone with Hank like horses please don't be afraid to throw in your 2 cents or questions (I don't consider that taking over the thread) I think we all can learn from stuff like this. Did I say How EXCITED I was SORRY I'll get a grip on myself now!
|
| Member: hollyw |
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 6:17 pm: It's a wonderful feeling to be "one" with our horses . . . each time we complete good work, even if it is just leading our horse to pasture, it gives us a deeper bond than we had before as we connect in our spirits, as it were.Nothing will get a horse acting up faster than HOLDING on to him. If a horse feels caught, he will panic and fight. Trusting the horse means allowing him to make his own choices as we cue him. It's an "ask" and "allow" for an answer . . . not an "ask" and "I'll MAKE you answer." You have found that Hank can be trusted to give correct answers. Once you know he can do it, never expect less. That doesn't mean that next time he'll automatically answer correctly, but you KNOW he can . . . and the only reasons he might not give the correct answers would be: pain or distraction (either because something really scary pops out at him or because the rider is distracted. Our horses will be as focused as we are . . . and, as I've heard John Lyons say, "We can keep our horse's attention as long as we are interesting to the horse." "You done good," Diane . . . Where there's a will there's a way You made up your mind to learn and grow and look what happened!!! and you and Hank are both happier and better partners. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 6:20 pm: Diane,I am sooo happy for you, happier for Hank, lol!! I bet he's thinking, "By jove, she's finally got it, , about time!" Don't you love days like this? Everything went well, because you "let go"..and I do know how that feels. I don't know how many rides I've had trying to remember everything, ride just "so" and ending up tensed up, and teed off with frustration over that "dumb horse"...not so much these last few years, I have grown as a rider! I am heading out to work with Tango now, did ride Cody briefly, and let daughter ride him...and I tried some new things on Willow...which I need to put on my thread about the sway backed pad...but have to say, when we ride well, with confidence, and get out of our horses way, we have a wonderful relationship, and a happy horse. And if the ground work helped you and Hank so much, I bet it will help Tango too, and I may just be able to keep him around. (might even invest in some Parelli DVD's...never too old to learn!) |
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 10:00 pm: Diane,Sorry, not much happened with Tango, I gave them their spring shots earlier today, and he was pretty blah. I let them on pasture for the first time this spring after the shots, and they did some running, bugs were crazy. (love how we go from snow to bugs over night!) I was also watching our daughter ride Willow in the arena, (I was in the round pen) and wondering if Willow was sore already from the shot. Turns out she was, acting really sore when lowering her head to eat hay tonight.  What little I did with Tango, when I was focusing on him, and with Gem afterwards, I was trying to do as little as possible to get results. Just quiet & quick sessions. Went pretty good. BTW, a "dull & non responsive old horse" makes you sound old, lol!! I've said I want the same thing, feeling to old for this "crap" but like you, I'd be bored with a horse like that. Daughter told me today Cody wasn't fun to ride, and she was angry that all the horses are trained "for me only." I said, "What, a responsive light horse is not a good thing?" And I added: "You wouldn't go play in basketball tournament without hours of practice, yet you expect to go on trail rides without putting in time here, working on balance, feel & lightness." She is recovering from knee surgury, so I thought Cody would be a treat for her to ride, maybe next time it'll go better. (Holly, wish you were here to teach!) |
| Member: stek |
|
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: maggienm |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 4:56 pm: Thanks. Shannon it is what I call a fake spook, but in reality what it is, is Hank looking for an excuse to act up on the way home. He honestly will leap 3 foot off the ground(ALL 4's in the air) at nothing. So yes you are right it really isn't a spook, it is a protest in Hank language! I am not riding him in a bit, I usually use the sidepull or bitless bridle as I am well aware of my bracing habits on him, and don't want to "rip his mouth off" He is broke to pressure enough that I really don't need a bit, when he is listening I don't even have to use the reins. Lilo, have you tried ground work on your horse? Especially before you ride (to get his attention on you)Hank didn't even tip an ear towards Sam's calling yesterday. He was busy paying attention to me. I think that was a 1st! I have tried the one rein stop, serpentines, backing, turning the other way, ect. ect. some of it helped a little, but this ground work is really doing the trick. We are only going to WALK until we have that mastered..that is our hardest gear!! I can't stand prancing, it's like riding an idiot pogo stick 500 mph winds today again with sprinkles, so no ground work or riding today
|
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 8:57 pm: Lilo, quite a few members explained very well up above how to do it. If I can do it with Hank you can too When we started just not long ago I couldn't even get him to lunge(on a line) correctly in all 3 gaits both ways...Now he does it at liberty. I got a flat footed walk home today again. Tomorrow after our ground work I am going to go out in our pasture a short ways...that is always a guaranteed out of control prance..ALWAYS...hope he does well. Stay at it Lilo you can do it!!! |
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 6:55 am: Very true Lilo But I have taught many horses the 7 games and how to move off pressure. Hank had just touched on liberty training 9 years ago. Hank has just been more of a challenge to me since he was trained above my abilities as far as riding. On the ground it is true he knows it, BUT I couldn't do any of it with him until he understood I finally meant business. That is his personality. He also is a very well trained horse as far as riding. As you have noticed I can't get along with him as far as riding either so we are learning together the right way this time. I actually had an easier time teaching it to horses who didn't know the games ect. I had to learn Hanks cues rather than teach them. I "broke out" all the babies I have had. I broke Sam the arab gelding I have who is a very good trail horse. I really am not as green as I sound. Hank is just "special" but the biggest problem is he is (WAS) too sensitive for me and he had me scared to death of him with his antics I don't know for sure if this is going to work....so far, so good. I do feel it is, I hope so anyway, or else I will have to buy a different horse Hopefully I will be in one piece after our pasture ride today. We are doing baby steps. My plan is to go up the road through the gate and go about 100 yards. If we don't prance on the way home I will be celebrating big time!
|
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 3:41 pm: OK guys...just a little more help...Please Today we did our lunging on line, and liberty playing..He is getting better all the time, even with a few days off. After playing, I saddled and rode him in the arena, we are concentrating on walking. Sidepull was his "bit" today. I want to get a walk soon as I cue for it, which I'm doing by setting my butt deeper. (hope that's right) Anyway it is working well in the arena. Soon as I ask for walk, from the canter or trot he is doing it. I have been trying to not use the reins, but occasionally do (not often tho) and it is a gentle pull...immediate release when it has been necessary. He is responding wonderfully Here is the potential problem. I really debated if we were ready for the pasture ride, I DO trust him in the arena at this point. Well after some pondering I decided to give it a go. (had my cell phone ) Going up the road to the gate the horse was a dream, I couldn't have asked for anything better behaved!!!! Hank and I have had some very scary, dangerous rides in the pasture, because he has been out of control. Before I even got him out, I DrOve up to the gate and opened it so we could just go, instead of dealing with the gate and me having time to get myself "worked up". Cows are in a different pasture so I can do that at this point. OHHHH and 2 big trucks went by on the road...GOOD BOY....didn't flinch!!! Anyway through the gate we went, I stopped him to decide which way to go, instead of fidgeting he stood there rock solid waiting for my cue! One way is flat and probably easier...the oher way down a big hill then back up and go along the field fence line. I have to say he has NEVER walked down that hill, and it always leads to a big tug of war, and setting him up for the prancing idiot the rest of the way. Loose rein, walk cue, and he DID IT He walked along in the pasture like a well broke good boy, I was COMPLETELY astounded. We went about 500 yds. I really wanted to keep going he was so enjoyable, but I knew I had to turn around and that is when the problems really get rolling. I'm surprised he hasn't killed me yet out there. Matter of fact I quit taking him out there last year for fear of my life...not kidding that's how nuts he got. He would prance...I would try EVERYTHING to get him to quit, but he wouldn't and it would snowball into a kicking out...spinning,...leaping through the air dangerous ride. Well we stopped, soon as we turned he picked up the pace a bit, 2 prance steps, cue to walk, and he did!!!!!! I COULD feel myself starting to tense and tug a bit . I had no reason too, other than bad memories, so relaxed as best I could gave the boy his head and we did a brisk, YET flat footed walk to the gate!!!!!! OMG I was so HAPPY!!! Out the gate, back down the hill and up the big hill to get home, not even an offer of a prance. I don't know if this is just a fluke or not, but it has NEVER happened before in the pasture. He was good with the cars that went by and did not try to leap through the air when going up the hill LOL. Question is??? In my mind I can tell I DO NOT trust him out there completely, I demonstrated that to myself. Should I not be doing this yet? I DO trust him in the arena now. But to get over this Bad memories of bad boy Hank (really me) I feel I need to do it. What do you think??? Thanks for all your help, I don't think I could do this with out it
|
| Member: terrido |
|
| Member: canter |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 5:51 pm: Thanks. I am really on the fence about it, I feel in the arena I trust him completely. The thoughts of going in the pasture with him terrifies me. Out of control is the only way to describe it! He didn't listen to me (this is before) was obsessed with the grass under his feet and was always "head diving" and if I corrected that he would loose his mind! There is grass growing along the edge of the arena that he can get to. One day when we were doing free lunging, he took right off down to that patch of grass and completely ignored me I took the whip and cracked it as hard as I could (at the other end of the arena) and that got his attention! He came right back to me. He never tried it on the ground again. HOWEVER one day while riding in there he did try to "drag" me over to it. He was reprimanded and from that day forward has NEVER looked at the grass in there again Hank is the type of horse that needs someone to be the leader and not faulter in this or he will take over the leadership role. I have been letting him make way too many decisions in our ridden work. I would let him eat the grass to distract him from acting up...I KNEW that was bad! He is not allowed to eat grass under saddle at the moment, it makes him a moron. This is a battle that I have won finally, and it is making a huge difference in his demeanor. I guess my biggest concern AT THIS POINT anyway is if he scares the crap out of me again and I cower that would not be good! |
| Member: stek |
Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 6:36 pm: Diane, I'm glad your first pasture ride went well. Sounds like the ground work and relationship building you have been doing has really been paying off.I think it's smart of you to realize that you are up against a confidence issue here and that you could end up doing more harm than good by pushing it too far, especially knowing as you do that Hank needs a strong leader to be his best. I do think if you push it before you feel ready your feelings of tension could lead to problems. Of course, it is certainly true that if you don't ever go outside your comfort area you don't ever get the chance to grow. I think the best approach is to work up to the big challenge from a different direction. There are tons and tons of things you can do in the arena to work on de-spooking and building confidence in the horse under you. I'd introduce lots of new challenges like erecting obstacles to walk over/under/through, carrying a flag, dallying up and dragging things, throwing a rope off him, wrapping him up in a tarp, etc Anything you can do to build his confidence in you as the fearless leader is also going to build your confidence in him as a trustworthy mount. You will reach a point where you've done so many much more challenging things than walking through the pasture that it will become almost an afterthought. Take this as an example: I am giving lessons to someone right now that is really afraid to canter. Rather than insisting she do it, I have been having her trot faster and faster and faster and throwing in lots of figure 8s and serpentines and all that good stuff. At some point, the horse is going to take a few canter steps and she will end up riding it naturally and the drama of it will be gone. But instead of leaping off high dive into the deep end of the pool, she will work her way in from the shallow end. Remember your safety and that of your horse should be your primary concern, you are after all doing this for fun! |
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 8:24 pm: Thanks Lilo. Hank IS NOT a spook, he very rarely does a real spook. He has been tarped ect. That is one thing I don't need to work on. Tho I do some scary things just to keep him that way! His biggest problem is me!!! I am looking forward to riding him rather than dreading it now. I think I will continue SHORT pasture rides until I am convinced I can trust him and he can trust me not to brace and fight! Lilo, I have found with Hank he gets no grass, or treat when we arrive home otherwise he relates getting home to grass or a treat and will encourage the prancing for home. I have been putting him away wet, soon as the saddle comes off, and going out about 15 mins later for grooming and possibly a treat.(depends if he was good )
|
| Member: hollyw |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 10:07 am: Holly I did do all that stuff before, it just didn't work very well. The 2nd trainer I used for Hank told me to do that stuff...bend around trees, seppentines, shoulders in, turn on the haunches ect. It did help a VERY little bit.He did think about a fake spook and YES it is FAKE!! I know the difference between his fake excuse to be nuts spook and his real one LOL He did not follow through with it yesterday that is a major accomplishment! Hank is perfectly capable of being a very good horse, I have been his problem for the most part...tho he does have a dominating, quirky, personality that can be hard to work with. I don't have anyone to ride with around here so we are on our own. IF I can get hubby to, I will see if he will video our playing...he is doing so well with that...of course if he's being videoed he'll probably be an idiot Thanks |
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: terrido |
Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 12:33 pm: Diane, Fran is 100% correct you do need to push a bit out of comfort zones to grow. But you know this. We all know it. ;) Do what you feel is best at the time. Maybe you feel up to a short ride "out" today, and maybe tomorrow not so much. That's ok, really it is. Move at your pace and don't listen to anyone that has a negative thing to say about it.I agree that you should have a plan. If Hank needs a strong leader then you have to have a plan enough to be that leader for him. The idea of doing certain moves while 'out' of course is to help you and the horse focus on the task at hand and not anything else. It can help to bring the horse's attention back to you as the leader in the dance. And yeah sometimes that may not work quite so well as we would hope. I had a day last fall, just one of those days, no matter what I asked of my girl she would NOT focus on me, she did the moves (almost begrudgingly as I recall) but I wasn't able to get her attention on me. Ended up in a bit of a minor disaster. Hind sight for me anyway, there are some days/times that you should just get off! LOL I really don't know if this applies to you or not, but for me for some reason that last fall off her left me gripped in terror. I honestly don't know anyone else that has experienced that kind of sheer terror, the paralyzing kind. And I mean paralyzing, completely and quite literally frozen in fear. Not a good place to go to mentally (or physically) when on a horse! *sigh* I have had a very, very long road back to feeling secure and mostly safe on her these days. I still have little set backs, like couple days ago she did a huge spook which unseated me just enough that I did the involuntary curl up and grab mouth with both hands (snaffle bit - very bad!). I literally had zero control of my reaction, it was instant and involuntary. And yeah I was extremely disappointed in myself, I thought I was well enough past that, but I was wrong in that assumption obviously. That's why for me right now I am sticking to arena work. I have to know I have that involuntary reaction replaced with mental thought process and positive actions. I am not there yet. It's bad enough that she will spook at something in our own arena and I react that way, if I were to do that "out" .... well I don't want to think about that cause that's just way too terrifying for me. We have plenty to work on right in the arena to learn 'de-spooking', and I have two trainers I am working with that are purposely spooking her so that we can work through it. I have always admitted to being a super chicken. Funny thing is that I can get on any other horse and don't have these "issues" with my fear. Yup it's that I don't trust my girl fully yet to not do something really stupid. And to be honest that's not fair really because she really hasn't done anything bad. even that day last fall, she was just UP and I was getting more and more apprehensive, nervous and then of course exhausted from trying to hold her back at a walk, then when I was able to trot her out a bit trying to prevent her from cantering (that's when she got really upset and exploded). Had I been in right frame of mind chances are we'd have been fine, or I'd have realized a lost cause at that time and gotten off. Lesson well learned, but we are both still suffering from my bad judgement that day. And yes I am taking loads of crap from well meaning friends about how I should just get out there and ride her. ;) They don't get it. It's my brain, my body(!) and my horse. I won't be doing either of us much good if I get out and cannot control myself well enough to be able to help control her. I am just not ready for that yet. But at least I am working toward that goal, even if going in tiny baby steps. It's what I have to do this time around, for me and of course for her too. Stepping out of my comfort zone? I do that every time I mount up on her. I have even moved my mounting block to outside the arena, so we mount up "out" and then I have to position her to open the gate, go through, close it, and then 'get to work' on walking all around the perimeter without spooking or shying at anything. But every ride that we accomplish getting past ONE scary place builds confidence in us both. And for now I'll take that cause that tiny bit is starting to make a big difference in my trusting her. Well and I am sure in her trusting me to not bang her mouth. I know this sounds like kindergarten stuff and it IS. If you knew where I started last October, this is at least 8th grade for us now! Sorry this is really long, guess I had to get some stuff off my chest, eh?? I think what I am trying to express is that in the past I have always gone ahead and pushed myself way out of my comfort zone pretty quickly after a fairly icky fall, and I don't think doing that for so many years has really done alot to help me mentally deal with 'my bravery'. With all the times I have come off, with all the times I have gotten hurt, and all the months afterwards of working through my fear getting back to complete confidence in myself, my ability and my horse, this "should be" no different, but it is. It's completely different because my fear level is augmented exponentially from anything I have felt before. I am thinking maybe it's partly because in the past I pushed too far too fast and never really got to the core of my issue. Hey I know it's ok to be afraid, everyone is (or they're a liar). It's what we do with it that makes the difference. So Diane, just do what you feel you are able to do and don't worry about what anyone else may think or say about it. |
| Member: hollyw |
Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 2:15 pm: Okay, Diane.What Terrie said . . .
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 3:19 pm: Yea Terrie hit the nail on the head, my problem with Hank started before he was even born. I was always the on who had to ride the green horses...for years..and quite frankly at that stage of my life it was fine. I have broke out MANY horses and they turned into wonderful riding partners for me and whoever I "broke" them for. FINALLY I had no more babies, no more green horses, and was able to just ride! Then hubby decided he thought Flash should have another baby,...she had 2 wonderful foals for us before and they broke out easily and I sold them for a decent price. Told hubby over and over again I did NOT want another green horse to ride I did that stint and didn't want to anymore. SO what does he do loads Flash up and has her bred!!!! Hank being the unwanted result! I loved Hank the day he hit the ground, but I knew just from his demeanor as a baby he was gonna be a tough one. He was bossing the adult horses at 4 mos. old and would not take no for an ans. from them...there goes my hope for the herd teaching him something!!! I did all the ground work with him, but at the time didn't have the want or the time to break him out...so sent him off! According to the trainer he was easy to break and from what I watched he was...but he defintely was wanting to run the show. Hank spent a month there and I watched the trainer ride him...I really didn't want to deal with a green horse again so told him to keep him for another month. Shouldn't have done that..the trainer liked him so well he spent a lot of time on refinement with Hank...He came home WAYYYYY to light for me. I didn't want to ride him after figuring out we would not get along at all. So off he went to the second trainer...he helped me get through a lot of problems, but I still didn't want to do this anymore!!!! Hank has taught me more than any horse I've ever been on and continues to do so. I am now a a place in my life I can deal with it (8 yrs. later) SOO we are making a fresh start... I now have the patience, much more knowledge for this type of animal so we will see where we land. I do respect Hank he is very smart, and quite frankly he does have horns!!! I could care less what people think,(another wonderful thing about old age!) but the ones that have seen Hank in action would probably applaud my efforts at trying to get along with him! Hubby left so I am going to see if I can set the video up by itself...the lime guy brought more footing so the arena is a bit of a mess until the tractor gets fixed...but it will do Thanks, I think everyone should have at least one Hank in there life, very educational horse! |
| Member: ekaufman |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 5:27 pm: I am glad to hear I'm not the only one facing my fears! Thanks for sharing your stories OK I got a video and touched on a few things Hank and I are doing...videos take SOOO long to download didn't want to make it too long. He wanted to be a little unattentive today, but overall he was pretty good. Remember we are only into a couple weeks of Liberty training and it's not been real consistent..For your viewing pleasure Be NICE https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090523HankVideo#5339126616081431202 |
| Member: erika |
Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 10:01 pm: No way, Diane!! I can't believe this is the same horse you showed smelling manure on the lunge line a few weeks back! What a great job. I am very impressed with the amount of attention he keeps on you. Very, very nice. Erika |
| Member: lhenning |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 10:53 pm: YES that is mister poop sniffer, I do not want to and you can't make me horse! I showed hubby the video and he said you have a lead rope on him! "no I don't" He said how did you ever get that idiot to do that.. HRMPH We are still quite rough around the edges, but we are getting it..Tomorrow We get to (hopefully) free lunge over a tarp. Hubby has one he was going to throw away so I think Hank and I will play with that! Thanks your encouragement, and help..helps tremendously! |
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 9:28 am: Good job Diane!So, you have like a very thin string on him, right, and we can't see it? LOL!!! I hope you had a good come back for hubby's comment! Isn't it funny, these horses seem to pick us to own them? I think Hank he chosen you to be his person, and it shows. Just as Tango has picked me, I have 3 "off" horses lately since they've been going nuts in the pasture, too much running and bucking. Nothing serious, they all looked better this morning as they were escaping from a crow flying over them! Hope today we can work again. I was trying some things with Tango, and found out he don't TROT beside me on a lead rope! Hmmm...how did I miss that?? He does walk, off the rope, and stay with me, stop, turn, and back with me. Once we get the trot down, I'll have to see if we can weave cones like you did with Hank. We have a small hill in the front yard, along with a stump from a massive Sugar Maple. It's my new place to stand and work horses. Love the fact that I can put Tango on the lower side, and be all over above him. And soon I will have to reseed the lawn there, lol! There is still hope you all may be blessed with a photo/video of me riding him! Elizabeth, "When we set too scary a goal, we damage our own self-confidence every second until we reach that goal. Set a different goal, and see what's next when you reach that one." I love your words of wisdom! Much to think about, and obviously you've been there, done that. I find that if I set a goal, and don't meet it, be it riding, training, trimming, and then I beat myself up over it and feel frustrated, I set myself back. It's a no win situation then. I don't enjoy the horses at those times. If I dwell on the fact that Tango is not my riding horse, and it's silly to keep feeding him, blah, blah, blah, and we could this, or that, or...then it makes me feel bad, and he picks up on it, and it just gets worse. When I focus on A) I love doing what we do, and seeing the results. Seeing him be more confident. It's not just about the riding. We'll get there...or maybe not...but the journey is interesting. B) Continueing to challenge myself...that must be why I own this goofy horse?? The challenge! He is TEACHING me more than I am teaching HIM. He knows what he needs to know, I just have to be smart enough to figure out how to communicate with him. And be confident enough to have his trust 110%. C) I can call it quits any time. But I must reach my "bottoming out point" and not have some one else decide it for me. If I decide I've done all I can do, and have no more ideas on what to try, it's not a sign of failure. (and this is a big one for me, as a "never met a horse I couldn't ride" Heeey...I am older and wiser now, and "riding" is more than staying glued to the saddle!) D) I have other horses to ride. And learn from. It's o.k. to not work with Tango for a day, a week, if I need that break, he needs that break. |
| Member: hollyw |
Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 9:44 am: Diane,I'm not ignoring the video. I put off trying to download it because of the time involved. I've been downloading it for over an hour . . . and only have 1/2 of it for viewing . . . Anyway, from what I've seen, you are doing a good job of keeping his attention on you. One thing I've learned over time is that every step I make, every tip of my shoulders (forward, back, right, left) . . . every bit of energy I display to my horse is interpreted . . . and the better control and understanding I have of "leaking" the energy, the more specific and consistent I can be with the cues and getting relaxed and consistent responses. Getting Hank's attention and keeping it is key, and you are doing it. I'll have to watch the rest of the video at lunchtime . Looking forward to it. Hope you have good weather and more time this weekend to enjoy your Hank.
|
| Member: maggienm |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 9:57 am: Thanks Angie, I am still amazed we have come this far in such a short time.Which brings me to the next question Consistency. From your list above D) stands out. I had the same attitude with Hank sometimes I just didn't want to deal with his behavior(more often then not) BUT I do remember that 2nd trainer telling me Consistency is VERY important with these horses. I CAN do nothing for months with him or even weeks, but is fair to expect him to "behave" then. My other horses all could sit in a field for mos. and be the same horse when I brought them out...Hank is not that type. Consistency rules with him whether it be a 5 min. session or an hour, but everyday "work" of some sort is best to keep him "engaged" Even when hubby saw the video said You should do that with him everyday..what a different horse...he knows the problems I have with Hank and has wanted me to "get rid of him" before he killed me. With my work schedule there are days I just don't have time, or energy to deal with him...but I am now MAKING the time and it has made a big difference. I haven't been riding a lot at this point, but I want his full attention when I do, so the ground work will pay off in the long run....I HOPE
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 10:04 am: Thanks Lori, It is fun ...NOW!Holly the video actually helped me see the things I am doing wrong I do finally have his attention most of the time and when I loose it, can get it back fairly quickly...like when he ran off at the barrel. Like Ann said above somewhere...focused work is much more productive, then blowing off steam. Look forward to your comments. Thanks |
| Member: hollyw |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 1:01 pm: Thanks Holly, I know I have taught my other horse the halt by stomping one foot slightly before I stop, worked great.The one thing I am doing VERY wrong is moving around too much when he is on the circle and looking behind too much when he is following. He needs to take responsibility, until I cue differently. We'll get there! Not quite ready for refinement yet, we've only been "playing" for a couple weeks. I'm happy at this point that he listens(mostly) I think in a couple weeks we will move on to refining ourselves a bit if we are ready Thanks |
| Member: maggienm |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 8:05 pm: I won't bore you to tears with our training as we go along. I just wanted to say I had a couple of important A-HA moments riding today.We did go up the road, Mermorial Day Weekend is really not a good idea and was running Erika's little voice through my head (didn't listen to it) I really felt the need to see if our training was going to help "out" and if the prancing truly was better. After riding in the arena and having somethings come back to me we practiced stop and walk. He did GREAT. Out we encountered way more traffic then I was prepared for, one special one was a big loud truck pulling a big loud boat on a bouncing trailer Guess what..I panicked UGGGHHH. I didn't know what to do when I saw it coming down the hill with 2 other vehicles flying behind it. The curl and fetal position took place...we did live through it, Hank balked a little but that was it and I'm sure I caused that. OF course this leads to a Hank in the leadership role and the horns came out . He was being AWESOME up until that point. I did manage to gather myself rather quickly and moved on. BUT he knew I had that fear there somewhere, and started trying all his bad habits...the sidle to the edge of the road and head dive into the grass! This is NOT good! We had a discussion a couple times and finally I had his attention on me and not the grass and he was back to being good. THEN we had to turn for home.. The prance did start and I could tell he was going to be adamant about it. It was NOT his out of control, I'm going to explode prance and I didn't want to go there either. I went back to what we had practiced in the arena (for an hour) before leaving. He began to walk..prance...walk...finally a flat footed walk the rest of the way home The ground work/arena work is definitely paying off! It was good for us and other than the nasty traffic I believe he(I) would have been fine. I hope I live through this! |
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 6:41 pm: Today I decided to shut my mouth and quit moving around so much. He's had all week off due to weatherHolly is right once they know it praise should not be needed as often. Our lesson was interesting. Hank was waiting for me to HEY HEY him. I really had to bite my tongue, and try to do it all with body language...was a little harder for both of us, BUT at the end he was doing great circles, in every gait without me moving my feet OR saying a word....better than with the verbals I would send him on the circle and not move until I wanted something different, he was responsible for speed and maintaining the circle around me. Do you think that boy ran off like a free wild horse a couple times??? YES. Do you think when he was around my backside he stopped and was standing behind me as I was waiting for him to go around . YES Do you think when I asked him to jump, turn, jump the jump again he did??? NO In the end he did all this stuff...the jumping was pretty neat, it was VERY hard to keep his attention after the jump and turn him in to jump again! We were far from perfect, but I think without the verbal and the chasing he gets it better...but VERY VERY hard on ME! I had to think a little more than I'm used too! Though I do believe it will become more "natural" as we continue his fascinating journey. |
