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  Discussion on Head toss - nose flip
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Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 4:55 pm:

Our off the track TB has an irritating habit of flipping his head, nose up and down while under saddle or walking in hand with a standard halter and lead rope.
The habit seems almost involuntary. It is a quick single snappy flip, one up and down twitch.
ending with his head in about the same place it was before the toss.
The movement is fast enough to cause the clip on the lead rope to smack him on the bottom of the chin.
We have tried turning circles when he does this under saddle and backing when he is working in hand.
He seems to understand we don't like the behavior. Sometimes he seems surprised immediately after a toss.
Any advice from readers?
Member:
majoda92

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 5:57 pm:

My daughter-in-law has a TB gelding who always did the head toss thing. She recently had some testing done on him at New Bolton (Univ. of Pennsylvania) and it turned out he has severe allergies to many things like dust and grass (not good if you're a horse!) and it was giving him post nasal drip which would irritate him and cause him to flip his nose up in the air! I'm pretty sure the anti-histimines and the inhaler treatment he is getting now, seems to be helping. I will ask her and report back to you.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 6:20 pm:

Hank does that when there are bugs near his head or he sees a butterfly near his head.

I now ride him with a quiet ride mask and the habit has disappeared...butterflies don't bother him with it on either
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 9:28 pm:

He is very easily irritated by flying insects. And does indeed toss his head when bugs are around.
The allergy thing does seem reasonable. The habit was pretty bad last summer, disappeared over the winter, and came back in the last week or two.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 9:45 pm:

Guy, if you are interested here is the quiet ride mask. Hank acted just as you describe, this has been a life saver.
https://www.cashelcompany.com/productdetails.aspx?C=1&SC=4&ProductID=9569
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 10:24 pm:

Guy, check out the companion article to this one which discusses the medical reasons for this behavior. See, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Head Shaking.
DrO
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 8:34 pm:

Doc,
Thank you for the advise. I have read though the articles and think the root of the behavior is something other than unwillingness.
When he spases out his ears are forward. Afterward he seems momentarily surprised, then he goes back to work. If we reprimand this surprise is followed by fear. If we ignore, he goes right back to work.
The head toss is a single very quick act, violent but not targeted.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 10:30 am:

Considering the recommendations in the article what are your plans to address this Guy?
DrO
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 8:22 pm:

We have scheduled a vet call on Tuesday the 19th. We will discuss the Head Shaking article with her.
We work a lot in a large in-door arena. He exhibits this behavior in-doors in fairly dim light. Windows are on the north wall and sunlight does not stream into the arena.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - 10:44 pm:

We were prescribed an antihistamine. Then we left town to attend a wedding in Tacoma.
We are back now and will start treatment tomorrow. Will keep everyone posted.
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 7:53 am:

Good luck, Guy. Will keep my fingers crossed that the antihistamine resolves the problem.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2009 - 9:49 pm:

The antihistamine helped a little, but didn't solve the problem.
We ran into a wall with our trainer and the vet.
Our trainer was of the opinion that the horse was an Ass. It is pretty clear he is a Thoroughbred, which is a horse.
So, after some other issues, we moved to a new facility.
Ten minutes into the first lesson with him. Leigh Berman, our new trainer, stopped the ride and said, "Why hasn't anyone helped him with this? He is sensitive to light. It hurts him."

She brought out a little mask, put it on and he was transformed, from a Yew neck handful of attitude to a quiet, willing, and able prospect.

Leigh said after he lesson, "he is amazing".

We were simply amazed.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2009 - 10:16 pm:

Good news Guy. Does he do this in pasture when he is out in light?
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 9:47 am:

That's wonderful news!

Our little mare who was head tossing quit after I put some medical tape on her bit. Seems the bit was hitting sensitive teeth, like what happens to me if I eat something cold.

Sure is a good feeling to figure these things out, isn't it? "No bad horses, just misunderstood horses."
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 12:10 pm:

Excellent news!
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 9:04 am:

Diane,
Yes, it is a different response than when he is in the bridle or halter. But, while grazing, if it is bright out, he is continually sneezing and snorting and shaking his head like there is a pesky fly near his head.
In tack, he doesn't understand the cause but associates it with the tack and training.
We are on night turn out now so he is comfortable. When we go back to days he will need his mask.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 9:29 am:

Thanks Guy, my horse is like that too, but I have attributed it to his intolerance of flies. The quiet ride mask did stop it and he usually has a mask on when turned out. I have read that it isn't as bad in winter for some reason, I suppose the sun isn't as "intense" I have put masks on mine in the winter when the sun is bright and snow on the ground as that seems to get the head flip going a little too.

Glad you found the ans. for you horse, what a relief

Thanks for the update
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 3, 2009 - 9:48 am:

Hello Guy,
Reading posts is one of the best ways I have of assessing the effectiveness of the articles. Reading your update post above made me realize that the article I referred you to back in May, which recommended putting on a light blocking fly mask, was not doing the job. You came away with the antihistamine recommendation and not the simple management steps. So I have rewritten the article on medical causes of headsheaking and retitled the two articles on this subject to help other find they. I would appreciate any comments to see if the revised article Head Shaking including Photic and Medical Causes does a better job.
DrO
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Monday, Aug 3, 2009 - 11:21 pm:

I think the new article would have helped me be more assertive with the trainer. It does make clear that this is not an unusual condition.

Our horse did exhibit the behavior indoors. However, the arena did have many windows and a large opening for service tractors.
In addition to the mask we have him working with a hair net over his nose. Perhaps this relieves some of the burning sensation? like pinching your nose when you are about to sneeze?
We will see how he does without the hair net. More to follow.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 4, 2009 - 7:58 am:

Thanks Guy,
In some large epidemiological studies over 60 percent of horses that persistently toss their heads is associated with exposure to bright light. Others have noticed that in some cases a nose net helps. I have always presumed it lessened the amount of dust irritating the nasal mucosa during work?
DrO
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 4, 2009 - 8:35 pm:

It was sunny and hot here today, the bugs were making up for lost time, as it has been a weird cool summer . . . 'til now. A perfect day for the experiment:
Start the ride in a mask without net. Add the net half way through.
Results:
He was good in the mask. Three minor little nose flips in 20 minutes, nothing really, a nice boy . . . good boy. Clearly the mask helps, without it we know he would have been acting like he had Equine Tourette's.
Add the hair net, better obviously better. Quiet, a perfect gentleman. Fully attentive, willing, honest.
I don't think the hair net blocks much dust. It is a pretty tight fit but a very open weave. I think it is pressure.
If only they could talk.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 5, 2009 - 7:43 am:

Great investigative work Guy and keep us abreast of any changes with the upcoming cooler darker seasons.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 7:25 pm:

Guy here is an interesting article on head shaking. It does state the nose net seems to work more because of pressure...interesting.

https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=14639
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Aug 29, 2009 - 4:18 pm:

We put him on a once daily dose of cyproheptadine.
He is completely different horse. Today the sun was out. A day that would have made ride impossible. After a wonderful ride in the ring we decided to cool down with a walk through the woods to a little stream. This would have been impossible a month ago. He as never walked a trail in the woods before. He was calm, quite responsive. I waded out into the stream and he followed me like we were joined-up. He pawed the water a bit walked around in complete ease.
We will wean him of the cypro once the days are shorter. Then if we have trouble in the spring we will try the melatonin therapy.
But, this really worked for our horse.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Aug 29, 2009 - 6:52 pm:

Guy,

Glad to hear you found something that is helping.

Now, what is cyproheptadine?

Lucky horse to have his human be so persistant in figuring out what was causing the discomfort.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 4:18 pm:

It is one of the medications found to be effective in treatment of photic sensitive horses. And is mentioned in Dr. O's article.
The vet at our new barn recommended it as well.
It is an interesting Wikipedia read.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 3:37 am:

Super news Guy.

Angie for more on this and other possible causes and treatments for head shaking see Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Head Shaking including Photic and Medical Causes.
DrO
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 - 2:50 pm:

Update: The cyproheptadine did not produce a dramatic improvement. I remembered this thread while he worked in the bright sunshine on a snow covered ring, quietly.

In April 2010 we moved to a new barn and hired a new trainer. Stopped Jumping and started over. The horse improved through out the summer. By August and September he was working quiet without any medication, fly mask, or hair net.
I feel like the change in training approach was key. This trainer removed all pressure until he became quiet indoor, then started working over using classical dressage training methods. When he responded poorly to pressure she backed off and tried a different drill. Always working but never fighting, almost always indoors. He is now working WTC. No head shaking, no tossing indoors or out. Now he is interested in ground poles and cross rails. He knows how to carry himself into and out of the jump. He is not irritated or irritable.
It seems like this was a training, pressure, pain issue all a long.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 - 3:36 pm:

Interesting Guy, quite amazing what "correct training" can accomplish.

Thanks for the update
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2011 - 3:58 pm:

Excellent Guy,
DrO
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Jun 4, 2011 - 10:13 pm:

Follow-up:
Our boy started having some symptoms again this spring. Really seemed to be allergy related. We tired Cetirizine.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/5/318998.html
But, only once daily, not twice.
The cost is reasonable and the improvement has been remarkable. Not completely symptom free but we have been able to continue training for the first time.
Have there been any new studies? Is this drug approved for equine use? Is it subject to FEI regulation?
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Jun 4, 2011 - 10:25 pm:

BTW, While the cyproheptadine helped, it was a pretty expensive prescription medication. Cetirizine is available over the counter. Seems as effective and lower cost.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jun 5, 2011 - 9:19 am:

Thanks for the update Guy and the information on alternative antihistamines for your tentative case of photic headshaking (PH). We should have looked at the last improvement attributed to training a bit more critically and noted that it happened during the winter when most cases of PH improve. Then again horses definitely respond to adverse training stimulus with headshaking so perhaps we are looking at a multi-factorial problem that you are incrementally attacking. Which ever, I should have moved this to the headshaking topic and will after I know you have seen this.
DrO
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Monday, Jun 6, 2011 - 7:24 am:

Yes, multi-factorial. But, having worked through issues I think we can put the factors in order.
Resistance to training in transition from track type training to hunt - jump. Going way too fast for his muscle and balance development, resulting in back pain. Once properly diagnosed and treated with a combination of appropriate exercise, and occasional NSAIDs we were able to work through that problem and isolate the secondary seasonal problems that seem to be a combination of light sensitivity and allergy.
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