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  Discussion on Trial Riding Problems
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New Member:
sdeese

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 5:15 pm:

I have a 15 year ol Arabian that I just bought 2 years ago. She is great on trail rides in the forest but when we get on dirt roads she wants to run and nothing stops her. It also appears that if we are with more than 3 or 4 horses she wants to get in front and moves very quickly. Again you can't stop her. She'll fight the bit and gets really frustrated if you try and hold her back. Again she's really great on a small narrow trail ride. What can I do to help her be more comfortable?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 6:06 pm:

Hi sherry,Welcome to HA. sounds like you could own a "leader of the pack"
I have an arab gelding that used to be like that. Have you ever tried just being the one in front to see if it will calm her? My gelding was content as long as his head was first.

That being said is she ok with just 2 horses? By herself? When she gets "nervous" is it with strange horses or horses she knows? Does she prance? Take off? does she do it going away from home? Answers to these questions could help us understand a little more
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 7:50 pm:

Hi, Sherry,

You have a very common problem, and there have been other discussions on how to keep a horse "with you" mentally and physically when he really wants to run away.

You say that you try to hold her back, which I picture as you tightening both reins. Horses can run full bore with their chins on their chests . . . so holding back on the reins is futile when a horse really wants to GO.

Are you familiar with the term "disengaging the haunches" or have you tried keeping your horse focused on some small circles or lateral work when she gets "hot and bothered?" In order for your horse to be focused on the work at hand, the rider has to stay focused even if all h*ll breaks loose.

I don't know how experienced a rider you are, and there is a definite need for the rider to have confidence in knowing that he/she can keep the horse from running even when the horse decides to go.

We can help you learn some techniques to control your horse's bolting if you are more stubborn than your horse and are willing to persevere.

If you can control your horse's feet, you will be able to keep her with you, so we can give you exercises and techniques to control her feet in all situations.
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 9:18 pm:

The turnaround is,"The horse's feet are always trying to go where its mind is." For me to control my horse's feet, I capture his attention, and that happens, he is with me. The challenge is to do that in a manner that doesn't cause him to think about escaping to "somewhere else."

My horse was nerve wracking to saddle, slamming his but at me and stepping his front end into me too. He was thinking about getting away from the saddle, and not about being with me. By breaking the saddling into small, enjoyable parts, he now follows me to the saddle and stands to be saddled.

Could you find a way to make an open road become a place for something else than run-run-run? Maybe a place that's also good for mount, dismount, mount again, back up, treats, circles, treats, leading practice, rest, go the other way, circles....until the horse is busy attending to you and not the situation?
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 9:39 pm:

A couple of my faves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXpxpKTnUr8&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzsoObl54a0&NR=1
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 8:32 am:

Susie is right on here. The key is to get your horse's attention on you and thinking about what you want. This starts at home with a lot of ground exercises aimed at moving the feet when and where you want them, and getting your horse to understand that when you pick up the rein, it means something. As Holly said, pulling back on the reins can be futile as the horse will just lean on the bit and continue on, probably faster than before you pulled back.

I do lots of lateral and vertical flexes and release of the rear, and moving all parts of the body with slight pressure. Once my horse is good at this on the ground, I simply try to transfer the feel to the saddle work. Once in the saddle, I incorporate serpentines, figure 8's and other exercises to get my horse focused on me. Probably the best exercise I have found for the horse that wants to go all the time is to simply take slack out of 1 rein and let him go, but he is constantly going in a circle. I just hold the rein with the horse's nose tipped in about 45 degrees and let him go. Sit calmly in the saddle with no leg pressure and just wait til she slows down to the pace you want, then release the rein pressure and let her walk out. When she speeds up again, just take slack out of rein again and wait for the slow down. This does 2 things. First the horse gets tired of just moving in a circle and will naturally slow down. Second, she learns to relate your lifting of the 1 rein as a cue to slow down. You will find that eventually, when you pick up on the rein, she will start to think slow down. Remember to reward and praise the slow down and let her rest when her feet are not moving.

One more important thing in this or any other "slow down" exercise. Once they get it down pretty good, start practicing transitioning up and down so that they don't forget good forward movement. Do all this at home in a place big enough to allow some movement. It will translate well to the trail where you don't always have room to move safely.

When you get back on the trail, alternate leading with being in the back and middle of the pack .. always when you want to, not when the horse decides to. Keep us posted on your progress. This is a problem many trail riders experience.

DT
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 9:21 am:

Sherry, I can't agree more w Holly, Suzie and Dennis here. I also might add, it is a good idea to teach a one rein stop at home before you hit the trail in case of emergency. This is where you pull his nose around towards your knee, disengaging his hindquarters and force him to stop or at minimum walk a circle. It takes a little practice though sometimes so it is best to do it at home over and over so on the trail it becomes second nature.
Good luck!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 9:57 am:

My 20 year old Arab mare will act up on trail rides too. If the horse(s) in front of her go around a bend in the road, and she looses sight of them, it's like she wakes up and wants to race to take off! Don't help that she plods along like an old cow until that point...sigh.

I find I have to be very conscious of my breathing, and not tense up my legs, or hands. Holding her back is the worst think I can do. She will BLOW up if she's held back!

Being on a horse with all 4 feet off the ground at once, the while she bucks, rears, and tries to run in place, is not FUN.

The advice above is great and it works wonders.

I find that using one rein the moment she starts gets worked up, really helps. What I do is take one rein and a slight jiggle across to my opposite hip. Hard to explain, it's a feel thing, but it comes before I do more of what Denny explains above. I am not in a "discussion" at this point, I am giving an advance warning of what will come if she don't calm down. I have to keep everything as light as possible with her. Lots of "easy, waaalk" also helps, as does humming or singing quietly. (horses don't care how bad are singing is)

Probably just what Denny explained above, we may be doing the same thing or maybe a slight variation. Just be sure to practice all the steps first, and in an enclosed area first. Can't do it too much!
Member:
erika

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 12:28 pm:

Something that has helped with my front-of-the-pack horse was to do the one-rein thing to get her to understand she isn't going anywhere, but then to ADD an additional "calm down cue". For us it was just a little rub on the withers when I finally let her reins loose. After a while she connected that little rub with the idea that we are only walking in a relaxed fashion.

It worked wonders once she figured out what the little rub meant. At least until I picked up the reins again...

I bet your horse has been raced on open roads for most of her fifteen years, so be patient, it will take a while for her to realize this is a new situation. Keep your cool and be patient, you'll get there.
Erika
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 1:52 pm:

Oh good point Erika! I also have a mare that is good on narrow trails (her mind is on picking her way through the terrain) but on the open road is all go-go-go. The one rein slow down helps, and as Erika said the relax cue really helped for my mare, not just in slowing her down but for when the group on the trail stops, or even just stopping and standing quietly in the arena, teaching her a cue to DrOp her head helps her relax. Good luck and sit tight! If yours is like mine she might consider how much faster she could go if she dumped you ;)
Member:
etiology

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 3:33 pm:

"Being on a horse with all 4 feet off the ground at once, the while she bucks, rears, and tries to run in place, is not FUN."


I'd certainly have to agree! Perhaps something to consider is the potential of instinctual situational reactivity. In a natural fear/flight circumstance, the head mare 'leads' the entire harem band family away from danger and the stallion 'brings up the rear' encouraging stragglers to 'get the lead out.'

Especially when riding a mare, she may feel this urge/need to 'lead the pack' as someone said. It could also be the apprehension of being one of those 'stragglers' that may the one 'left behind' to a predator attack, (or feel the nip or shove of the band stallion behind her). Either reaction would be dependent on multiple various factors, (present herd rank, basic origin/prototype, past management-care and types of 'training,' relational values with the rider are only a few).

In any case, seeing other horses running out of sight, (or far ahead) would certainly evince a great deal of 'flight reactivity.'

I've always taught a verbal 'Calm Down cue' on the ground as an integral, possibly life-saving part of their overall curriculum, (actually I use two, a primary/emergency request/response and a secondary one of reassurance).

When a horse lowers their head, it releases endorphins. While the horse may, (or may not) instantly lower their head in those microseconds of hyper-reactive 'startle-fear-flight,' (or perceived intense separation anxiety) cortical override effects at least a momentary limitation on the 'flight emigration.' This allows implementing the 'secondary reassurances' needed to stabilize and reaffirm control.

There certainly are many other factors to consider. Perhaps one of the most important, (if not THE most important) being the type of relationship established on the ground long before 'mounting up.'

Through the years, I've documented quite a number of various reasons for 'Suddenly Temperamental, Jigging or Bucking' but it may be too long to post here.


best regards,

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
Member:
erika

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 4:37 pm:

Chuck, it's interesting that you posted here today. I was thinking of you on the trail today! I was contemplating this thread, as well as another one you posted on about expecting horses to go calmly down a trail alone against all of their instincts.

As my mare was working her way down a particularly spooky part of our trail (water on both sides of the narrow trail, with lots of critters jumping in, squeaking, etc), I thought about what you said. It certainly helped me to empathize with her instead of hurrying her along.

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing your insights about the nature of horses and our relationships with them.
Erika
Member:
etiology

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 5:51 pm:

It can really be a bit........hmmmmm.....'frustrating' for me sometimes.

A lot of the new wave, (at least to me 'new') NH trainers say, "Look at it from the horse's perspective." But they don't really seem to do that, (or at least not to what I would consider an 'appreciable depth of empathy and understanding').

So I have to concentrate and try very hard to word things so as not to offend anyone's present belief systems. (Wishing I had the patience with my peers that I do with the horses!)

We intrusively roar into their lives at various times of the week, (or in some cases month) demanding instant obedience and a 'perfect ride.'

And when we don't get it, (with a bit of tradition, entitlement and rationalization mixed together) we find ourselves blaming the horse instead of trying to determine WHY they acted the way they did and placing the blame on the guilty party, (us).


A vast majority of all those behavioral issues and 'bad horse problems' could be avoided very simply by relational conditioning, incremental habituation and regularly 'riding' 5-6 days a week. Both the location and duration of the 'ride' would be insignificant. The important aspect would be that mounted activity became a definite part of their lives, (what I call their 'life pattern').

And too, Laws of Appreciation and Laws of Intention seem to apply to equines as much, (or more so in many cases) as they do to humans.

I also hear a lot about 'Positive Reinforcement Only' formats. And I think it's really great that some horse owners are that sensitive, empathetic and compassionate. The problem is it would be pretty difficult to raise a child without boundaries. And when you get right down to it, horses are very similar in many ways to a small child.

Very glad I was somehow able to help a bit.

Your horse is very fortunate she has you for an owner/mentor/caretaker.


kind regards,

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss, Rebel & Combustion
( And Nikki )
New Member:
sdeese

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 6:58 pm:

Gosh, I'm really amazed at the responses I've received already. Thank all of you so much. I've read about the one rein stop and I do attempt to do this but like you said I need to practice, practice. When I try this on the open road now, she will just spin like a top and keeps going forward. Again she only does this on an open road and with more than 2 or 3 horses and horses she doesn't know. The last ride was a little better because I let her run and then kept turning her around to meet back with the herd and then run again but she still never quite settled down. I had a trainer try and help and she put a training fork on her saying that she would move her head back from the bit. Do you think it would also help to bring my herd and keep practicing on open roads to help her settle down with all the training tips you've helped me with?
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 11:27 pm:

Let me start by saying that this is my opinion and not necessarily what is right. I believe that the value of a technique, for example a one rein stop, is proportional to my attention to the feedback the horse gives me in that process. I've found it very helpful with most horses, yet with the horse I have now, it does not help (yet).

For him, spiraling in, or taking up one rein to disengage his hindquarters sends his anxiety into the stratosphere. While I know that if he can relax his poll laterally, this will help him integrate that relaxation through his whole body, he doesn't believe it, and so far cannot reliably let go. Somewhere in his life he learned to brace his poll to protect himself from having his neck cranked around and his balance taken away. Of course this must feel horrible to him.

Now, here's the cool part of this. I started doing very gentle serpentine patterns with him, and when riding with a friend, ride circles around her in a manner that he was always either turning toward her horse, or toward home. That way, the turn always felt good to him. In the process, he started releasing his poll. He must have liked how that felt, because now he likes doing serpentine patterns. He seems to "get" that it helps him calm down, and he likes the way that feels.

I am so grateful to my Hairball horse! He forced me to pay attention to what is actually happening with HIM when I do whatever it is that I decide to try. He's taught me that just because a tactic worked with umpteen other horses, it might not help US. He will tell me what helps our relationship, my job is to pay attention to his responses.

I agree with Charles about boundaries. Horses are always trying for what will work, or repeating what has worked. The human's part is mindful reinforcement. Negative and positive reinforcement both work. Punishment is the problem because with it, one can end up reinforcing unwanted behavior (freaking out for example). Anyway, reinforcement always trumps punishment.

Whew, that's enough out of me, huh!
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 11:33 pm:

Excellent, Susie. Simply perfect.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 7:32 am:

Susie,

Where were you in my life 15 years ago? My one mare always acted just like your horse, and I had to learn to do exactly what you said, or we just did circles really fast, and she would get more hyped up, never calmer. She still has to be handled on her terms, which isn't a negative at all, just means the person handling her has to be calm, and ASK, ask gently for the correct response. You must stay in tune with her.
Member:
erika

Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 8:48 am:

Yes! Susie, that's how I ended up finding the wither-rub. The circles did tend to make that mare hot and fretful, too. (I just realized I have been posting about two different mares here, need to use names I guess). So Sugar, the "forward" mare, learned the shoulder rub in a more controlled atmosphere. I don't think she mentally would have made the connection in the hunt field, for instance. But practicing on a trail toward home when she was simply jiggy and in a hurry was a chance to make the connection with the rub+loose reins=walk.

The other one on the trail yesterday was Cleo, Sugar's daughter. Poor thing goes out alone 99% of the time (this is where riding with dogs helps--they are company for her and one can lead when the horse is unsure). She is NOT forward, and we have had to deal with a bit of nappiness there. So that long stretch of about 2-300 yds between swampy ponds can be an exercise in GO, rather than SLOW. But I think the point is the same. The horse learns best in a relaxed, focused state. Whether the anxiety is from wanting to race ahead, or fear, or whatever, trying to teach any cue under those circumstances is hard.

Sherry, this is my long-winded way of saying that you could try teaching your calm-down cue in a less stressful environment, then eventually you should see a good reaction in the situation you describe. If she rides more calmly with just one familiar horse, or even alone, that might be the time to transition a good calm-down cue to the road. I wouldn't just continue with the situation that gets the horse so worked up. You'll just be enforcing the anxiety, IMHO.

Patience, and practice in a calm situation will bring faster results. Remember, the horse has a lot of history prompting these reactions. He needs time to change his patterns.
Erika
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 9:40 am:

Yes Erika, I like the way that you say this. The situation isn't really the problem. The situation simply reveals a need to work on calm leadership. Using the wither rub, serpentine, or any behavior that facilitates relaxation and calm focus is central. Whether my horse is "behind" me or "ahead" of me it's just a sign that he's troubled, and hasn't discovered that being "with" me will help him.

Hairball was jiggy all the time, especially going home. What helped that was making going home mean something else. We did "touch and go's" I'd ride out for half hour or so, come home, give him a drink, tie him up alone for 10-15 minutes while I went around the corner, and then return to go out again. After doing this several times a day for a while, riding toward home changed its meaning for him.

This discussion is full of great ideas and perspectives. I appreciate the collective wisdom here
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 6:59 am:

Lots of good points here .. especially from my Darlin' Erika. A horse that is sketched out is not a horse that is thinking .. he is reacting based on years of survival instinct. Try to put yourself where the horse is at, and then try to help him learn how to cope with the situation.

People bring me horses on a regular basis with one kind of "problem" or another. They tell me all the "bad" things the horse does and want me to "fix" it. Sometimes they can't understand why after the first week or so, I haven't exposed their horse to the situation that sets them off. They are even more baffled when we finally ride into that situation and the horse handles it with little or no problem.

I guess my point here is that I don't want to take the horse directly to his problem and pick a fight. It is not so important to me what he does, but why he does it. It usually comes down to a good foundation and confidence building. I go back to basics and work on building a better foundation and helping the horse deal with different situations in a more controlled environment at home. Help the horse learn to handle different situations in small steps and then build on that. If you take your horse over the top and put him in a situation he is not prepared to deal with, he is not able to think and understand what is going on. I try to take the horse up to the point that he is getting bothered, then take the situation away and reassure the horse that all is ok. Keep repeating and each time you get a little farther before the horse gets uncomfortable. He is learning to control himself and handle the situation. The magic is, he is learning to handle a lot of "bad" situations because he is actually learning how to have confidence and control of himself. Equally as important, he is learning to have confidence in you because he knows you will help him through these situations.

Sorry ... I start talking about these magnificent animals and I don't know when to stop. Build a solid foundation and a bond of trust and respect with your horse and you can go anywhere and have confidence that you both can handle it.

DT
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