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  Discussion on "Good Girl!" ...Now Keep Going!!
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Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 1:03 pm:

Curious results of praise going on here. When working with Cleo, I praise her, and often let her walk on a loose rein after doing something new or difficult.

Here's the problem: when working on canter transitions and collecting, every time I say "good girl" she assumes she can DrOp all impulsion and will slow down. Not what I am looking for when I want her to maintain a gait. Once I get a nice canter, the second I praise her, she will break to a trot! Then I have to get after her and get her galloping before we can get down to a controlled canter. I need some way of letting her know when she is doing the right thing, but saying it isn't working for us.

It also is starting to happen after we jump. Since she is new to jumping, I was making the jumping the last part of our workout, and followed the jumps with a nice relaxing walk to cool out. She will take the jump willingly, but now after almost every jump, she will try to slow down--even between jumps, like she thinks any effort is enough. I would like to keep things pleasant for her, but she is so darn opinionated that I really have to watch anything that becomes her decision.

She tends to be a lazy girl, and she's smarter than me, obviously. It has taken a lot of work to develop good impulsion with her, only to find myself sabotaging the efforts and backsliding. Yesterday we did ground work and I was having to really get after her to MOVE, and to stay moving.

What am I doing wrong? Do I stop praising/rewarding? I'm headed out for ground work again (not ready to ride again yet after the fall) and I would like to nip this in the bud.
Member:
stek

Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 1:45 pm:

Erika, I have had a similar problem in the past, where praise is taken as a cue to stop and let down. I think its our fault, it's created by praising at the end of the activity. I am very verbal in my training tho so it's hard to stop!

What has worked for me is to incorporate the praise along with the command. This is something I learned from a dog trainer who would always use 'Good Sit' or 'Good Stay' instead of just 'Good boy!' and it seemed to work well. I started using 'good trot!' or 'goodcanter' (harder to say), that kind of thing.. essentially always incorporating the cue with the praise.

I think the words themselves are less important than the tone and the energy you are using to communicate, too. So if you can beam praise while still maintaining the same energy (esp with groundwork) that helps too.

On the same, but opposite, vein, I never never never say 'no' to my horses because it sounds too much like whoa. I always use an 'ah-ah-ah' correction sound instead.

Good luck!
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 2:12 pm:

Yes, to Shannon's suggestions, especially about the "NO."

In effect, Erika, the praise is the release of the cue . . . so any verbal congratulations can technically be withheld or only given sporadically. When teaching a cue, praise is essential, but once you know the horse can perform it, I'm not so sure that the praise has to continue at its same level or as often.

I am quite sure that when you say, "Good Girl!" your body is changing . . . and the horse is feeling that and relaxing after the cue, too.

The cue is the pressure, the praise is the release . . . and anything extra is frosting on the cake.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 3:38 pm:

Erika,

I am glad you were brave enough to post that problem, I have a similar situation especially with Cody. I say "easy" to keep him relaxed and hold the gait I've asked for, he now goes really quickly from a posting trot to a walk with "Easy" not what I want. I have to be sure to give a tad of leg if I just want sitting jog.

And I never say NO or WHOA, not unless I want WHOA as in all movement stops. (My Arab will put you over her head if you aren't careful with that one! Speaking from experince...but only if she's listening that day.)

I use a similar "AH-ah-Ah" Or maybe it's like "HAY HAY HAY!" Guess I need to listen next time I say it..it's so automatic I don't know for sure!

Haven't we always been told to talk less to our horses? Trying to think how often I've been saying "Easy"...home work tonight.
Member:
canter

Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 4:07 pm:

Erika, I've had the same problem at canter as well. I think Shannon gives practical advice, and I have tried to incorporate that into our work. The other thing I do, rather than a "Good Girl!" is to with hold the verbal praise, but reach down with my inside hand for a quick rub on the neck - one quick, light stroke. However, when doing this, I have to ensure that I don't change anything else in my position. Leaning forward can tip the horse onto her forehand and also cause her to break into a trot.

Also, be proactive and put your leg on before she breaks into the trot until you feel the energy maintain. And if she does break, give her a good thump with you leg, right back into canter, until she learns that it's YOUR decision.
Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 5:27 pm:

Interesting that I'm not the only one finding this to happen. I guess I got more liberal with my praise after watching lots of Jane Savoie videos. She was very clear about lots of verbal praise when the horse gets it.

I also have some driving background, in which voice commands are quite handy. (Reminds me of my neighbor who DrOve a four-in-hand. Instead of "easy" to slow the team, he would kind of say "brrrr" only flapping his lips like he was giving a raspberry!)

So, before I got your terrific suggestions, I did go out to do some ground work with Cleo. Funny, Shannon, coincidentally I did start saying "good canter" followed by a cluck to keep her going. It did help, but then again, I am not collecting the canter on the longe line (I'm not THAT good yet), just trying to get canter departs down better. I'll have to come up with something else in the saddle. Unfortunately, that little hand rub at the withers is already my "calm-down" cue. I'm afraid that would really put a damper on impulsion!

I am starting to think I am too blabby lately. Need to focus more on the body language. I usually just lighten the physical cues as a kind of passive reward. Maybe I'll try going back to that.

And I had to chuckle at the noises you all make for disapproval! I agree, you don't say no. I have always kind of growled a "Naaaahh!" in a deep voice to let them know it is not acceptable. We could all get together and have a chorus of approval and disapproval sounds and see what kind of cacophony we come up with!

Keep the ideas coming. This is a new game for me dealing with a less forward horse. I have always had very willing movers and calming them down was often a challenge. I think it's a lot more work having a more docile horse. Different work, anyway. On her mother, Sugar, I used to try to get less rein, now I just try to get Cleo up into the bridle. Opposite problem.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 6:05 pm:

My cowboy mentor told me a hand on the withers was a calm down or stop cue...I think from when cowboys rope cattle, don't they put their hand there as they go flying off the horse to tie the calf?

What's funny with me, since reading all the tips on the "liberty training" thread, I've stopped being vocal, and am working on body language, and finding I don't like "NOT talking" imagine that!

O.k., I'll be the one going "Hay HAY HAY NOW"...sometimes followed by some unlady like words, lol!
Member:
terrido

Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 7:56 pm:

The trick is to use different vocal cues for different things. You've taught her 'good girl' means we can now relax from what we were doing.

The suggestions are fine, as long as you can use them, if not find your own.

I use one word for super praise - "excellent!" and boy does my girl know this word! Good girl means just that, good job means she has done something well, and only when we have fully finished do I dare use the 'OK, all done!' phrase. I use words like settle and eeeeasy that mean slow up, of varying degrees tho. :-)

A fun one for me was figuring out what to say for a cue to actually have her step up onto something with her fore feet, cause I use 'step up' to get her feet moving faster in the gait. Came up with "climb up", and bot does she! She'll climb up on just about anything I ask her to now.

For any animal ya gotta use a specific cue, body language or hand signal plus a voice/word to go with it. And everything you ask has to have its own unique word. I watch so many people say "over" to their horse and they mean for it to move its body over and away (usually hindend), but they use the same word "over" to have them move in both directions. Huh?? Kinda like the word "down" with a dog that will be used for both 'lie down' and 'get down'. *sigh* No wonder they ignore us. I use direction words with "over" so my horses know which way I want them to move cause I don't always want them to just move "away". And for the dogs of course 'down' means lay down, and 'off' means get off! haha

Get creative and figure out words you can use consistently that will have a unique meaning. Happy riding!
Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 9:35 pm:

Yes Terrie, that is exactly what I've taught Cleo, that "good girl" means "all done"! From here on, that is what it will mean, and I will have to come up with a new way to communicate "correct".

I'm going to reread the thread you sited on ground work, Angie. Maybe there are some ideas there. I really was impressed with the progress Diane has made with Hank.

I guess the good news is, if I ever put a little kid on Cleo, I will know they can stop her simply by comlimenting her!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 8:38 am:

So, that's why Cody stops, I compliment him, and he's such a loving guy, he just stops to suck it all up! Typical male!

Terrie,

Thinking about your comments on dogs, one of my pet peeves is people teaching dogs "down" to lay down. And then say down to get off of something or stop jumping. I say "DrOp" which means lay belly flat on the floor, accompained by the hand single to do so. (Release to let go of something in the mouth)

Applying that to horses, not the DrOp to lay down, but thinking that one word needs to mean one thing and one thing(action)only, it would seem that my "easy" or
Erika's "good girl" is a calm down cue...and brings a question to mind; Will a horse just "calm down" or "slow down" off of a verbal command? WITHOUT us changing our body language? Even on the ground?

GOOD thing to TEST at Liberty!

I know when riding, especially Cody, part of what is happening is my riding talent, or lack of, is I am not great at going from posting to sitting gracefully so I am changing my body to sitting. He will slow down the jog from sitting but I am also slowing my seat I bet.

Erika,

Hmmm...how about saying "YEsssssss" to communicate "correct?" I read that in training dogs, saying "That'sssss a good dog" really gets their attention as being praised, especially the drawn out "ssssss" on That'ssss"

Or would that excite a horse, or spook them? They are not dogs...
Member:
terrido

Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 1:00 pm:

Angie, "Applying that to horses, not the DrOp to lay down, but thinking that one word needs to mean one thing and one thing(action)only, it would seem that my "easy" or
Erika's "good girl" is a calm down cue...and brings a question to mind; Will a horse just "calm down" or "slow down" off of a verbal command? WITHOUT us changing our body language? Even on the ground?"

Short answer is YES! You can teach them to work off your voice only. My horses respond extremely well to my voice cues, regardless of my body language cause I can stand stock still and they do as asked. Course they understand what the sound means. They also respond to the simple and cues I use, I can use either individually or both simultaneously and get the same results.

But yup, I use 'slow!' while walking Bella if she starts to walk too fast. I don't have to slow my forward motion, I just say slow and she 'half halts' herself. I can keep going the same speed, that will have zero effect on her.

Well trained? Hmmm maybe, I rather view it as being super cooperative. She chooses to do as I ask 98% of the time, whether at liberty or not. That 2%? Well, :-) she is a highly opinionated and expressive MARE. LOL I always allow her to have a say in things, she is allowed to choose to NOT do as I suggest. I know, such an odd way to teach a horse. It works!!
Member:
erika

Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 3:07 pm:

Angie, as I mentioned before, driving horses have very few cues other than voice to go on. They can't see your body language with blinkers on.
They can even be trained to only respond to commands that are preceded by their own name, as well, in case they are hitched as a team.
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