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Discussion on Fitting a saddle to a downhill conformation
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 5:05 pm:
Question: When you have a horse that is this downhill, how do you properly fit a jumping saddle? The problem I am having is that the front of the saddle makes good contact and so does the back but the middle bridges. Are there corrective pads for the middle? Plus, some jumping saddles make me feel like I am pitched forward. I feel like I am going to fall flat on my face when I start posting. What brand of close contact or eventing saddle fits a horse with this type of conformation? Thanks. Ann
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 5:34 pm:
Hi Ann. From the picture it doesn't appear that your horse is so much downhill but hollow through the back. It might be the way the shadows are cast, though.
We had a conversation about this very thing a while back. Angie J. and I have the same problem. I can't for the life of me find that thread, though! They do make shims and bridges that can be added under the saddle (both english and western) to help correct saddle fit on this type of conformation.
I ended up going with the Skito western bridge and it's working well so far. Skito also makes and english bridge that you might look into. https://www.skito.net/prod03.htm
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 6:27 pm:
Ann,
Here's the link:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/289816.html
My thread was "anyone have luck with sway backed pads? Pictures of my mare Willow on there.
I don't like the Skito pad I have, (bought for my treeless actual, don't like it for that either) nor did I ever use the special sway backed pad I bought as you'll read on that link. What I am doing is folding a blanket between the saddle and the pad..western saddle though, impact gel pad.
I am pretty disgusted over the cost of the Skito pad and the sway back pad. If I were in your place, I'd check out the Cavello (?) I think they make the ones with felt in between the outer and inner layers.
If you want to spend mega bucks, Parelli sells special pads with shims; looks like a fantastic concept they've come up with. Of course for best results, buy their saddles too.
If you search their site, maybe there is a video of Linda doing saddle fit with the special pad and shims.
I've been toying with the idea of "sculpting" the wither pads I have; so I can just put them under the saddle and be done instead of folding the blanket just so each time.
BTW, the foam speciality pad, as it sinks down, I feel myself going forward, and my mare starts acting up because the saddle hits her then.
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 6:27 pm:
Wow! Thanks for the quick reply. The skito pad looks like it would work great.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 6:32 pm:
Just remember you can pad up a saddle, but that still does not make a saddle fit.. so becareful..
I have my saddles checked about every 2 years to make sure that they still fit the horses i am riding well.. as we all know , a sore backed horse is not a happy horse..
good luck..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 6:34 pm:
Thanks Angie. I have a feeling I will be doing a lot of trial and error experimenting with this horse. He belongs to a friend and I am borrowing him while my horse is on stall rest. I currently ride in a Bates Caprilli CC saddle but I am planning on selling it. It's OK but not great. I am too old to ride in a saddle I don't love. Why waste the time? I will probably try a few Duett saddles on him - the all purpose and the event, maybe the trail model. My dressage saddle is a Duett and I LOVE it. I purchased a used Duett Rondo (all purpose) and immediately loved it on my horse but it was too wide and I had to sell it. I just want something that is comfortable for me and the horse and I can jump in.
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 6:37 pm:
Thanks Ann. I totally agree. I would love to get a custom saddle for Whiskey but currently I am only borrowing him. I will probably own him someday but for now I can't afford to spend a ton on a saddle. The saddle fit does concern me because I would like to go over small jumps with it.
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 7:14 pm:
I like the Cavallo pad that is built up in the middle. It seems to take care of the bridging and allows saddle pressure to be distributed evenly on the back.
It doesn't have extra padding in the gullet over the withers (which would pinch the withers or shoulders) but just over the "dippy" part of the horse's back.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 8:03 pm:
Hate to say this, but I gotta be me. Sounds like the saddle doesn't fit properly and to work well it should fit the horse properly. I would look into getting another saddle, cause if it's bridging and you start jumping all you will do is cause your horse's back to get really sore, at best. Her back shape doesn't look too unusual and she doesn't look 'downhill' (hips higher than whithers) to me at all. She just has a lovely made to ride comfortably shaped back. Normally jumpers have a much straighter back, but nope hers looks fine to me. I'd find a saddle that fit better, or fit perfectly.
Good luck.
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 8:28 pm:
Terrie,
I agree. I have seen too many horses develop bad attitudes because they are sore from poor fitted tack. I want to buy a new saddle, I am just not sure which brand to go with. I borrowed a friends HDR wide saddle and it seemed to fit him well. It was that saddle that made me feel like I was being pitched forward. I have seen a saddle in Schneiders made by HDR specifically for quarter horses. I am not sure what about it is different. But I have time on my side. I can order and return saddles over and over until I find the right one. It would just be nice to know where to start...
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 8:32 pm:
Here is a picture of me and Whiskey and my dressage saddle. The saddle has a front riser pad under it.
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 8:36 pm:
Terrie, I agree about the back conformation.
I didn't look at the photo until after I posted . .. took a while to download . . . but
if the horse had a truly "dippy" back, and required a custom saddle, and money was not available for that, I really believe that providing the padding across the dip is going to give the kind of weight distribution that is necessary for the horse's comfort.
With that in mind, Ann, the rear panels of the saddle can be lightened by removing stuffing . . . and then the saddle should fit more level. When placing the saddle on the horse's back, step back and look to see if the seat is in the middle of the back (half-way point between loin and middle of withers) and see if the saddle sits level. If not, stuffing can be removed (within reason).
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 12:04 am:
I have a mare that I acquired with a severe saddle lordosis (sway). The problem, as stated above, is that padding doesn't really eliminate the problem of bridging, since the rider's weight is still going to be displaces disproportionately.
My mare goes in a saddle with air panels and no spring steel-- kind of a partially treed deal that demonstrably distributes my weight evenly.
Before I had the custom, I rode her in a treeless saddle with a sheepskin trauma pad-- she did fine, but the saddle wasn't real stable.
With an off-the-rack saddle, you could substantially shorten or remove the spring steel and remove the points on the wooden or synthetic tree to minimize or eliminate the bridging.
It is generally possible to improve or sometimes even eliminate a sway of this sort with proper gymnastic development of the horse. My mare's back has improved a lot in the last few years, though she'll never be normal.
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 8:42 am:
Thank you for all of the suggestions. I am going on a vacation for a week and I look forward to reading more commments when I get back. The family is going to Disney World.
By the way, at this point in time, Whiskey does not demonstrate any discomfort from the saddle. I am just concerned becaused of the sweat and dirt pattern that appears on the saddle pad.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 11:38 am:
Ann, you should be concerned. The 'pattern' you can see on the back from a saddle tells you how well it fits, or does not.
Personally I don't recommend getting a saddle yourself and trying to modify it, for obvious reasons. What I would recommend you do is find a custom fitter. Seriously. If you have the time and $ to keep trying saddles and returning, why not invest in a one time do it right cost? ;)
Holly's right the padding can be set to help fit the back, air panels may also be an answer, but again to do those right it takes two people and the air pump.
I am a bit opinionated in this area, and will admit to that. Having worked closely with Jochen Schleese for the past 9 years now I have learned a few things about saddle fitting. The one thing that is most important is that the saddle MUST fit the horse correctly or you will cause physical issues in the horse, the least of which would be lameness. And yes a semi-custom saddle is not inexpensive, but most saddlers have used saddles available too. I personally like Schleese because of his tree, he can refit the saddle to most any back (over and over), and the tree is flexible and will move with the horse instead of digging in and stopping movement.
OK, enough sales pitch. ;) It is an area that you should give considerable thought to. It's almost like buying furniture in a way. You can continue to buy the cheap stuff over and over again and try to sell (or give away) the old stuff, or you can put your money into well constructed furniture that will last 20 years. Yeah the well made stuff costs more initially, but how much do you end up saving in the long run?
Or you can just ask yourself how much you love your horse and what his/her health and well being is worth to you. Yeah I did it, threw in that one question.
My horse's back is shaped much like yours, but she is also very short backed and has big scapula movement. ;) Jochen has a few models designed to free the shoulder more. My horse could not be happier in her movement in it.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 11:48 am:
Here are a few photos for thought:
My Bella and her back shape:
Her new saddle: (sorry, it's not a direct side shot)
You can see the saddle sits level, and just fits the length of her back, without being too long.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 12:00 pm:
OK, more food for thought, just a for instance of what is available in the saddle market.
Schleese saddles can be refit to most any back shape.
Same saddle, here is Bella's back when I first got her fitted:
The 6 months later fitting, her back had changed a little:
And then another 6 months later, a full year after I got her fitted the first time, it changed even more, actually quite a bit more:
Same saddle, he just kept widening it. It did get to that point where there wasn't much more widening he would be able to do.  Anyway my point is that yes this saddle is expensive, but it not only fits my horse, and me, perfectly, it can always fit her as long as I have the fit checked regularly. He back has changed for every twice annual fit check since I have owned her. between her growing and maturing and working regularly or not, then back into consistent work. Ugh. ONE saddle, not 6 I would have had to have by now.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 1:16 pm:
Ok, I'll come out of hiding as well. Schleese was the only company that would attempt to fit my mare (the other custom shops looked at her photos and declined to try). Her saddle is an incredible piece of engineering, with no steel and a completely custom design, and it was nothing short of a miracle. They have done exceptional work modifying it as she has developed.
I bought a second Schleese for my then-stallion, who is not deformed and also wears an off-the-rack saddle comfortably. I switched to the Schleese when he stopped throwing himself on the ground (for good, I hope), and it was like switching from a station wagon to a Maserati in terms of my ability to shift my weight and balance quickly and precisely.
They are spendy and it can be frustrating to schedule service, but I also believe that they are the best saddle out there, and my mare would not be rideable in anything else.
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 7, 2009 - 5:55 pm:
Thanks for the input. Yes, I know that Shleese saddles are awesome. I sat in one at a horse expo and was given a quote for a custom saddle: $4000. I love my horse enough to board her at the finest facility near me. I love her enough to put her in orthopedic shoes and haul her to Dallas for an MRI but I do not see myself ever buying a saddle that costs $4000. The only items that my family owns that are more than $4000 are our vehicles and the house. My horse didn't even cost $4000.
Also, don't forget that the horse in this discussion is not my horse. I have a mare that is laid up for a year with a torn DDFT (in another post). I am only borrowing this horse. I do not love him (yet) but I really like him. I like him enough to buy him the best fitting saddle that I can afford.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 7, 2009 - 8:37 pm:
Oh, ok sorry didn't have the full picture, I guess. ;)
Bets I can offer would be to get a Wintec brand, air panels and the gullet change system. That may be about the best option then to get a decent fit without going through a semi-custom.
fwiw, Schleese always has used saddles available for even than half the $4k price. Plus his $4k saddle isn't a full custom, it's a "semi-custom". His full custom is almost twice that price. ;) Just a matter of symantics, I know.
I'd just go with a Wintec then. Decent saddle, very inexpensive and you can get them to fit pretty well by using the gullet system. This way you won't be out much money for a horse that isn't yours.
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 7, 2009 - 11:25 pm:
Thanks Terrie. I have never had difficulty fitting a saddle to a horse before. This is all new territory for me. Plus I have to add to the equation that Whiskey responds so much to my body language. If he feels any tension in me, he shuts down. I just finished reading Centered Riding and I tried some of the visualizations tonight while I rode and Whiskey was so much more forward than usual. It was great.
Just some background on Whiskey: he is 10 years old, a quarter horse gelding a little over 16 hands (I think), he was purchased for barrel racing but did not perform as well as the other quarter horses owned by this family, he was put out to pasture until I came along. I totally pamper him with lots of grooming, regular fly spray application, treats and lots of patience when riding. He has a very sweet personality and takes care of me when I am riding him. Since he has such a wonderful personality, I am trying very hard not to do anything to make him sour.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, Jun 8, 2009 - 11:25 am:
Ann
I use a wintec. It didnt cost an arm and a leg --and was a nice comfy suprise. I got it so I could break my horses with it. I didnt want to spend too much when its just gunna get rolled on and everthing else. But,I ended up loving it. Its quite comfy and the fact that I can adjust it for either horse is wonderful.
Good luck
L
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Jun 8, 2009 - 11:29 am:
Spoken like a true horse person Ann. Thanks for the details.
When it comes to fitting any english style saddle, it is just my opinion, one needs to have a fitter check it, adjust it, etc. Too many saddles might bridge on a back like his, or need more padding in front to sit level, etc. Hard to say really without seeing the actual horse. Obviously when this isn't a horse you will have for years and years you and you don't want a major investment (even tho a Schleese can pretty easily be refit to ANY new horse you might get in future) for the money ya just can't beat Wintec and Bates brands (same company btw). The quality of the saddle is very good, air panels would allow the saddle to fit the horse's back best and of course the gullet system allows you to get a good fit at the front of the saddle. So put a little extra cash into one of those, I doubt you will regret doing it. They're lightweight and loads of people ride in them all the time.
Trying to find a 'more normal' commercial brand saddle at a local tack shop (or online) that will fit him will most likely take many attempts and lots of up front $$ to try. (Deposits, shipping, etc.) IN the end it's all just time and money anyway, your choice in how you spend it. ;)
I know that whatever you end up doing it will be what you feel is best for him and your budget. And that my friend is all any of us try to do. He sounds like a lovely boy, he sure is cute!
Best of luck to you and to him!
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