|
|
Discussion on Unwanted Behavior Under Saddle in Ring
|
| Author |
Message |
New Member:
vickija
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 12:53 pm:
Hello All:
I spend many hours following your threads but have only posted a thread once. One of my mares (Morgan/QH) has a quirk I have been trying to understand and change the behavior. I have had her almost 2 years now and she has a great personality. Sweet and accomodating in most ways. When I got her she had been used as a trail horse for an outfitter and really has had little formal training. She has a wonderful "soft" trot and really isn't fazed by anything. HOWEVER when I do ring work with her under saddle she really gets nervous. She is OK in a trot and walk but when we transition from a walk to a canter she freaks! It seems to me that there are a few things at work here.
1. The ring was obviously very foreign and scarey to her.
2. Transitioning from a walk to a canter was completely befuddling to her.
I use repetition and positive reinforcement when she does it right but after about 10 strides she seems to get her feet mixed up and throws her head and starts a little buck clearly rattled by the whole thing.
I would love any advise on what you think is going on and how to correct it. It has been 1 and 1/2 years I have been doing this. I have nearly given up on this as she really is a great trail horse but it just bothers me and it isn't in my nature to give up! How we can't get beyond this!
|
Member:
jjrichar
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 1:13 pm:
Victoria, I understand your frustration.
A few questions... Is your mare crossfiring when she canters? In other words, is she cantering on one lead in the front and another in the back? Have you ever observed her canter on a lunge line or in a round pen? What is she like when you take her out of the arena? Have you ever cantered her outside of the ring? What does she do when you trot and let her easily break into a canter?
Sorry to ask so many questions, but I feel that there are missing pieces and I can't really help until I know more.
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 1:16 pm:
Victoria,
How is she going from walk to canter out on the trail? Is this issue only in the ring? Is it an issue when you ride alone or when there are other horses in the ring? What's her reaction in the ring with a trot/canter transition? Some answers to these questions may provide some more insight for everyone's input.
As to the fear she exhibits in the ring, have you done anything other than work her there? Have you been able to turn her loose in the ring or hand walk around? Does equipment, such as jumps or cavaletti frequently change or is the arena always empty and the same. Is there a particular place she gets nervous within the ring (I knew of one horse who ALWAYS spooked in the same corner, even though there was never anything there).
Again, knowing a bit more detail may help us provide you with better answers - and I know the members here are sure to have a bunch of good ideas.
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 1:17 pm:
oops, looks like Jennifer and I had the same thoughts...sorry for the duplication!
|
Member:
vickija
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 1:41 pm:
Sorry to leave out details my post was sooo long already but I will try to give a little more info.
No she doesn't crossfire when she canters. On a lunge I can get her to transition from a trot to a canter (again no crossfire) and no head throwing, and believe it or not on a trail she will break into a canter fine usually from a trot although from a walk it requires alot of leg pressure. I really think her anxiety comes from cantering in circles under saddle but do not know how to get her over it!?
|
Member:
vickija
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 1:47 pm:
Sorry I didn't see Fran's post I will try to elaborate again. I really appreciate all the input! I am always alone in the ring however it overlooks the pasture where there are other horses. There is no unusual equipment in the ring. Only cones and cavaletti neither of which she seems particularly bothered by. I have done some ball work off the lead in the round pen and she is fine with that. Could it have something to do with the additional flexability it takes to canter in circles? I am just shooting in the dark here.
|
Member:
dani1980
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 3:31 pm:
victoria, it does sound like she's still fearful...not sure if you know in her past how much if any arena training she has had? i think you still have to think of her as a green horse in the arena. my best suggestion would be lots of ground work, getting her to move her feet and change gaits and directions with you on the ground. the best way to do that would be in a round pen. if there's no access to one you could try putting her on the lunge in the arena w/ no saddle and once she masters walk, trot, canter you can try again with a saddle still on the ground though. play w/ her in the arena, turn her loose and turn her out and spend time petting her so she's knows your a safe leader she can look towards. gradually work your way from walking in the arena to walk/trot. and if she's still good attempt walk, trot canter in the arena again. i've had my horse almost 2 years and i still do ground work with her to keep the mutual respect and bond we've built so she looks to me for guidance rather than responding to her own fear issues. hope this helps
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 3:39 pm:
Hi Victoria, I have had that trouble with my wonderful horse Hank too. He can transition easily when on trail, but in the area, especially on the corners we have/had the same problem as you.
Creating bend is a lot harder then it sounds.
We are still in the stage of working through this, the first thing I would recommend is that you are sure you have proper bend trotting circles and that you are staying in the center of your horse and not "falling in" one of my big problems
The next thing we have been working on is canter on the long sides, trot bend on the short sides, it helps them learn to balance through the corners. The members on here can help you more than I, this is just our starting point. There's inside rein and outside rein...inside leg and outside leg to create bend... sometimes we get in their way and make them fall off balance which can lead to the behavior your horse is having. I know it does with Hank. He can canter wonderful circles on the lunge or at liberty...not when I am on his back...which tells me I'm the problem
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 3:51 pm:
Victoria, something you said in the last post caught my attention: the arena overlooks the other pastured horses. So I have to wonder if she is truly fearful or being a bit naughty ("Hey! Everyone is out there eating grass and I have to work!")
If she's looking out the window, she could be throwing her weight onto her inside shoulder, which unbalances her. This might not bother her at walk or trot, but it may cause her to rush and "scramble" at the canter.
Diane is right, true bend is not always easy to achieve and our own body can affect it. In my case, I tended to ride canter circles with MY body facing a straight line on the right lead...for the longest time I couldn't figure out why I had to wrestle my mare around the circle until I realised how my position affected her at canter. Bringing my inside shoulder back a bit, in line with what I wanted her shoulders to do and correctly weighted seat bones, helped a lot. The horse didn't have to figure out mixed signals and willingly relaxed into a much easier, relaxed canter.
|
Member:
vickija
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 3:57 pm:
Thank you for your thoughts. I do need to spend more time with her on the ground. I think that I am so content with her out of the arena and my other horse is so much easier to work with in the arena she may be getting short changed. Psycologically though I would like to know what is causing the behavior when otherwise she is so easy?
|
Member:
vickija
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 4:05 pm:
Again ALL GOOD FEEDBACK! I do wonder if it is me on her back. My background is hunters and jumpers and level 1 dressage but not for the past 20 years! I tend to stay pretty still in the saddle and use mostly leg and weight to subtly que. I fear that she doesnt quite get the subtle approach and I may very well be confusing her with my signals. They work great with my other girl and the one I am trainig but maybe she is just more stubborn or just greener? I will keep up the work and perhaps have someone video me as I transition her into a canter to see if I can see anything from the ground. Thanks again for all your input. I read you all religously and trust your judgement.
Thanks again
Vicki J
|
Member:
jjrichar
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 6:04 pm:
LOL, yes, Fran and I did duplicate... "Great minds"... you know. 
I agree with Fran in that you need to maybe look at her as a green horse and back up and start with some basics. It is also possible she is being a little naughty or even 'ring sour' with you like Fran also mentioned.
I might add, it is important to rule out a physical problem that might be showing itself more when she works circles at the canter. Some horses will buck, pin ears, break, change leads, etc. at the canter if a circle is painful. In my experience it can sometimes indicate a hock or stifle problem. So just to be on the safe side, I thought it was important to mention that.
I also agree with Diane. Bending is the key. Getting the poll, shoulders ribs and hind end to yield and making your horse supple will not only do wonders for her transitions, but will do a lot for her mind and keep her listening to you. I do a lot of bending and counterbending circles at the walk and trot before I even attempt a canter. So when the time comes, I have complete control at the faster gait.
|
Member:
maggienm
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 6:26 pm:
Hi Victoria,
A couple of thoughts.
You mentioned that it takes a lot of leg to get a canter transition from a walk even on the trail, perhaps she doesn't have a clear understanding of what you are asking.
On the trail where both of you are comfortable perhaps you could work on getting a quicker response to your leg aid, work first on the trot canter transition.
In the arena I would repeat the exercise from on the trail. She should willingly take canter from trot with no head tossing before you ask for canter from walk.
This could take several sessions. Build her confidence that canter is the correct response.
While you are working on this I would try trotting circles with her in the arena.
To start with ride as large a circle as you need to to keep her bend. Flex and leg yield her in a few steps and then push her back onto the larger circle. The idea is you are doing a partial spiral in and then out. You may find you can spiral in much further one direction than the other.
Another good suppling exercise is serpentines. Again I would work on these at the trot.
Halt, walk, trot transitions would be good to help her focus on you.
Does she appear agitated at any time other than when you are asking her to canter?
Another idea I would try is lunging her in the arena on as large a circle as I could.
Make sure she is comfortable and responsive at walk and trot before asking for canter.
If she is not used to lunging I think I would do one lesson without asking for canter, just establish a relaxed walk, trot, responding to aids on the lunge line, then in the second or maybe not till the forth lesson ask for canter.
Be specific in your aids even in lunging.
When she takes canter only let her canter a few strides, try to ask her to come down to a trot before she gets upset.
This way she learns there is an end to it and she can do it successfully.
This is pretty long so I'll end here.
Keep us posted on progress.
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 6:53 pm:
Great stuff above, as always.
Just a thought, Victoria, but you mentioned that you don't often work this horse in the ring, but use her more on the trail. I know that I can be guilty of riding differently on the trail than I do in the ring. Just subtle little things, but definitely different, and Cleo picks up on it.
I have been making an effort lately to ride more technically on the trail, as I do in the ring. Less casual and with more intent and clarity, I guess. For instance, I know that I ask for a lot more half-halts when ring riding, and more "on the bit". For this, I find I am progressing more with more awareness of trying to ride similarly when outside.
I don't love riding in a ring, but I have to force myself to do it in order to concentrate and get my horse's concentration when doing new things. My tendency on the trail is to be very casual, with loose reins, often with bitless bridle, to boot. I think the change is much more obvious to a horse than to us.
So, to be more concise--perhaps you too "change" your technique in the ring and your horse is getting anxious about the differing cues? Give it some thought. It took me a long time to realize what exactly I was doing differently. With more consistency, I can see our progress move along much better.
Try riding the trails exactly as you ride in the ring and see if she reacts any differently. Pick a section of trail where you can work on canter departs and try practicing there. Then see if it translates to the ring.
Erika
|
Member:
shanson
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 6:56 pm:
It's physically difficult for a horse to pick up canter depart on a circle while balancing a rider. Harder for some horses than others. Lots easier to pick up canter while trotting down the trail. Sounds like she needs lots of foundation work bending, suppling, and conditioning.
Maybe you have an experienced trainer/friend who can assess her to see if it's a physical issue, attitude problem, or training issue? Could be any or all of the above. If it were me, I'd have to add rider error. I'm still learning how to properly prepare and ask a horse for canter depart.  It's hard with horses that don't have canter depart training.
|
Member:
vickija
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 9:22 am:
Again thank you all for the feedback. A few things that I KNOW I need to work with her on that you all reminded me of. Like Erika on a trail I am much more loose rein and in a social relaxed postion. In the ring I am all business because (again like Erika) I don't like ring work and it is all business when I am in there. I think as many of you mentioned I need to go really back to basics with her and work on bending, suppling and conditioning. BOY I decided to get pleasure horses so they would be a pleasure! OK I will keep you all informed of our progress. Rosie (her name) is also over weight and I have been working to get it off her so all basic ground work will help that too! Thanks again for all your input. I guess there are no shortcuts to creating good horses! I will keep you all informed of her progress I will post again in 1 week and let you know how it is going.
Vicki J
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 12:56 pm:
Vicki, IME many horses out on the trail are naturally more forward/relaxed about upward transitions, I think just that 'out for a ride and happy' thing more than anything.
I would go back to work on the lunge; when Rosie can comfortably go from a halt to a canter on the lunge then she might be ready to go from a walk to a canter under saddle. Till then I would not consider her physically ready to ask.
I would also introduce a verbal prep cue, similar to a half halt, on the ground that you can use to transition to the saddle. My canter cue is the 'kiss' sound, and when I'm teaching caner transitions I usually say 'ready' at the same time I'm doing a micro half halt and bringing the horse back to step off from that outside hind, just before the 'kiss' cue. In one or two sessions on the ground they usually understand that 'ready' means in the next stride I will ask for a canter.
Also while she is learning I would focus on the transition itself as my goal; if she DrOps the canter after a few strides I don't worry about it in the beginning. That smooth relaxed transition is what I'm after, and it's easy enough to keep the gas on once they've achieved it.
Remember that your cue for canter has to come at the right point in her stride, just as she swings her outside hind under herself, as that is the foot that will step off into the canter. If you cue at the wrong time, she'll miss the opportunity, won't be able to step off into the canter, and your cue loses it's meaning.
One last thing .. once she is physically able to consistently pick it up, asking for the walk-canter transition can be very well reinforced by doing a turn on the haunches along the fence, then asking for the canter stepping out of that turn, as her inside hind will be in position and her weight will be back on her haunches and ready to go.
|
Member:
vickija
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 1:27 pm:
Thanks Shannon I will try that. One question When turning along the fence do you give the verbal cue before asking for the canter?
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 1:42 pm:
I would give the verbal 'ready' cue just as she's almost completed the turn, then the actual canter cue (whether you use something aloud or just your leg or whatever) as she completes the turn and is just stepping off in the opposite direction. So the canter cue comes when her outside hind is just about to land under herself to push off into the canter.
Hope it helps! If you have access to a round pen or even if you are able to free work in the arena, you can practice rollbacks that go into a canter transition from the ground, it can be really helpful too.
|
Member:
vickija
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 12:26 pm:
Shannon,Erika,Lori,Jennifer and anyone else who offered kind suggestions regarding Rosie and her issues in the ring transitioning to a canter from a walk. I just wanted to report that we have been doing alot of ground work and as suggested, bending and going back to basics including giving into the bit. It seems to be working! I am actually having alot of luck with Shannon's suggestion of taking her into a canter as we come out of a turn. She seems to be getting it and it is making her alot more confident when I ask her to do it. She still is hesitant at times (depending on what else is going on around her) but we are going back to square one and we (her and I) seem to be working it out. Thanks again for all the advise.
Vicki J
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 4:03 pm:
Great news Vicki! I learn so much from this board on a daily basis; the knowledge and caring HA members provide is second to none!
|
|
|
