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Discussion on What bit should I try next (new horse)?
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Member:
tbhack
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 1:50 am:
I have a 1 year off the track TB gelding, 16.2. His mouth feels 'medium' softness, he is in a loose ring snaffle with a link in the middle, copper plated. He is VERY over active in this... constant chewing and dripping too much saliva in a walk and halt. He is learning to accept a contact. I think it would be nice for him to have something he can hold if he wants? What should I try next (I have to buy it which is why I'm asking)? Plain loose ring (no link)? One without copper? An eggbut D-ring snaffle?
THanks,
Kate
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 5:53 pm:
Hi Kate,
I like an eggbutt snaffle with what I call a center lozenge, not the flat French link. A D-ring with the lozenge is also good. The single jointed snaffle can hit the horses palate and create a nut cracker effect on the jaw if used the wrong way. The lozenge will put some pressure on the tongue but IMO is kinder. I use either the eggbutt or D-ring with center lozenge on all 4 of my horses and they are all ages and training levels.
Cynthia
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 5:55 pm:
Sorry I intended to add that the copper is causing the excessive salivation and I would try getting a bit without the copper.
Cynthia
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 9:32 pm:
Cynthia, is what you call the "lozenge" a little round barrell "thingy" that covers the joint? I'm wondering if we like the same kind of bit. Sorry I'm not better at discribing it. Good point about the copper.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 9:49 pm:
The bit has two joints with the football shaped "thingy" in the middle.
Cynthia
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 10:04 pm:
Hi Kate,
If he's only fussy at walk and halt, it may not be the bit. An OTTB is going to have very little experience in the lower riding gears, and he may be venting his uncertainty/anxiety/restlessness by champing at the bit, literally. Bits are expensive, so I might give him more time to relax before changing up his gear, as long as he seems comfortable in it. Just a thought.
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Member:
chrism
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 11:43 pm:
I like Cynthia G's bit suggestion. But before going to the hardware store -
Check if the bit you have is too wide for his mouth. Perhaps raising it or lowering it a hole will make it more comfortable.
What type of noseband or cavesson are you using? Can it be adjusted? Often they are too low or tight on the horse's nose.
Sometimes a small equipment adjustment is all that is needed.
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New Member:
anya
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Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 12:22 pm:
I have an ottb aswell, and she did the same thing. I then raised it a hole, and biting immediately stopped. she is just chewing a little on it.
I am using a happy mouth eggbutt snaffle, and happy with it.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 3:23 pm:
Kate, the advice above is good. Also wanted to suggest a mullen bit, I have a horse that won't take contact in a regular snaffle (doesn't like the nutcracker affect) and is a little strong in a french link, but the mullen is his cup of tea. Every horse has their own preference ;)
Also I like to introduce a new bit with a surcingle and sidereins to let the horse feel it out a little. You can see more easily from the ground all the different bits of body language he will use to express what he thinks about it.
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Member:
lilcrow
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Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 11:02 pm:
Kate, you say that your colt is dripping too much saliva, you or others may correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was a good thing. When I watch most advanced dressage horses working they are salivating VERY heavily and I just bought a sweat iron snaffle with copper inserts so that I could get that affect. Don't we want our horses mouths moist?
I've also been told by several trainers in the last few years that the old rule of thumb about hiking the bit up so there are "3 wrinkles" at the corner of the mouth is incorrect. They recommend letting the bit down so that the horse has to pick it up and hold it. I have done this with two different horses and two different disciplines with great success. It eliminated any problems of fighting with the bit and they seemed to relax more easily with the bit.
This is a picture of the bit I just got for my mare.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Jun 15, 2009 - 11:23 pm:
If the bit were really bothering him, don't we think he would fuss more at trot and canter? I still vote for anxiety....
Just as an FYI, sweet iron and copper are both illegal materials in USDF (USEF) recognized competitions, as well as in FEI.
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Member:
lilcrow
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 12:05 am:
WOW!!! Really? Humm........well. Scratch that for you guys. Sorry.
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Member:
tbhack
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 6:23 am:
Wow! Thanks everyone, it feels like there is something in what each of you have said, I learnt a lot reading your advice.
Thanks Chris. I will fiddle with his gear and see if a different position doesn't help (I've got 'two crinkles' at this point if that makes sense).
After that, if no difference, I'll try a d-ring eggbutt with lozenge - thanks Cynthia.
Shannon, I'll watch on lunge first... what do you look for on lunge particularly with new bit?
Nancy, my hunch is that for the level he's at now, just off track, not sure he needs such a wet mouth, but take your point for more advanced dressage work you do, thanks.
Elk, he's not really 'anxious' to ride, but is green still, so I should remember that too.
Will let you know how he goes. Thanks again, very helpful advice.
Kate :-)
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Member:
tbhack
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 6:25 am:
Oh, one more thing... is there any difference in movement between eggbutt and d-ring. I'm aware d-ring less likely to pinch, but does it move different to egbutt in any other way?
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Member:
tbhack
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 6:27 am:
And,I just re-read my first post, typo. He is 9 years old, not 1 year old! Woops!
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 1:37 pm:
Kate, if the egg but and D ring have identical mouthpieces the only difference I think you might see is a minimal difference caused by where the rein sits and therefore when/how it picks up on the horses mouth. I would think this would be negligible though.
When introducing a new bit on the lunge I look first on a loose rein how the horse is packing the bit, if he is comfortable with it in his mouth. Some chewing/chomping at the beginning is good, but for me when a horse is truly comfortable carrying the bit they will almost seem to be sucking on it rather than mouthing excessively (at least for a horse that is used to carrying a bit in general).
When I add light contact from the sidereins or long lines I look for the obvious things, opening the mouth or tucking the chin to evade contact, and general expressions of discomfort. Keep in mind .. no fair tying his mouth shut if you want to see his true reaction!
Finally if the horse seems comfortable I look to see how he moves up into the bit when asked for impulsion. Does he hollow to avoid contact or is he comfortable coming up through from behind into the bit?
All of these things can be detected from under saddle too but for me I like to know that I'm not interfering in any way and observe from the ground first, especially if I'm not positive the issue is with the bit or something else.
As elk says above a horse off the track is likely to have anxiety issues especially at the walk so that could be contributing. Many racehorses have their mouths handled roughly, starting with the chifney as a yearling and chain shank through the racing career. Your horse might be exhibiting anxiety at contact in general too. Take it slow and give him plenty of time to figure things out.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 5:44 pm:
Well Kate all I have to add is the obvious. Make sure it fits his mouth correctly first and foremost and is adjusted in the mouth properly and comfortably. It may need to be raised or lowered, depending on how you have it in his mouth. (Depends on HIS mouth)
Changing the bit may not be the answer. The bit you describe is fairly "soft" and most horses would favor it. I use a D ring, french link on my mare and she love it.
He may be 9, but he may be super green too, and much of the chomping is probably anxiety. If he is unsure what you are asking of him especially.
Best you can do is make sure it fits, make sure it's set correctly in his mouth and try to eliminate his anxiety by slowing things down a bit.
If you still want to change bits, I'd go with a normal full cheek (with keepers) snaffle, again make sure it fits his mouth! This is a 'normal' bit they use alot on the track one style that may feel more familiar in his mouth and reduce some of his anxiety. It will have a bit less movement with the keepers. Great training bit.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 8:26 pm:
Hi Kate,
I got a thoroughbred mare the same age as your gelding 16 months ago. They had gotten her from a thoroughbred rescue and even though she had never been raced, she was too much horse for them. I realized that the first thing she needed was to learn to relax. I started by teaching her ground manners, to lead on a loose line, to stop on a loose line when I stopped and to do all this with her head level with her withers. Then I did round pen work, like Parelli, John Lyons and Clinton Anderson. I spent a months time desensitizeing and teaching to give her hip. Then I spent time ground driving her, all before getting on her back. If he is nervous it may help to go back and do these things with him. At least you will create a deeper bond and more respect. Maybe you will find that it even cures the bit problem.
Cynthia
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New Member:
gilby
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 1:07 am:
Hi Kate, I have 2 9 yo OTTBs, and they both had bit anxiety, actually anything human anxiety!! I work for the trainer they came from and know first hand what racehorses go through!! Most horses come back from their races with blood and bruising to their mouths. Some horses are hard to read, they internalise their worry, and it's really hard to tell whats going on. If he's been a racehorse probability has it that he is anxious. Lots of groundwork to build his trust like Cynthia suggested is what has worked for my guys and I agree it will probably cure the bit problem. I think that the bit thing is just a symptom of his general emotional state. Racehorses in most cases are forced to do everything and it will take some time for him to trust you. Good luck, they make wonderful partners!!
Gil
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Member:
chrism
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 5:55 pm:
One other thought, people often use a thickish bit thinking they are being kind, but your bit can be too kind with too thick of a bit and make a horse fussy. Thoroughbreds tend to have smaller mouths, so a lot of bits can be too thick (as well as too thin). Like the baby bear, they need to be just right.
Are you are at a barn with others? Perhaps trying a few bits will help you decide what he likes.
The AHSA/USEF, whatever it is called these days, has its rule book on line for each discipline and you can check for legality if that is important.
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 4:07 pm:
My TB, who has a small mouth, fussed and fought with a thicker snaffle. I've been using the Myler comfort snaffle and she likes it. I too thought the thicker would be gentler, but if your mouth is stuffed up with something thick, then I can see the discomfort.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 9:34 pm:
Hi Adria, The idea of reducing anxiety would be my first concern. The horse cannot pay attention or work out what you want if he's struggling with that.
Here are links to a treasure trove of excellent information. There are illustrations of various snaffle types with discussion of what the merits and drawbacks of each are. I cannot believe that it's free! Theresa Sandin Blog: Sustainable Dressage
https://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php
https://www.sustainabledressage.com/collection/natural.php
https://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/work_stretch.php
The previous owner of my horse said that she did not recommend trying to ride him in a bit because he had a boring problem. A year later, and using the principles of positioning, he is happily and quietly carrying a bit. Let me tell you, he was a fire-cracker! The following quote comes from this page.
https://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/gadgets.php
"Instead of Gadgets
I'm on a mission.
I'm searching for the lost 'positioning' at the poll. Everywhere I go, everything I read, it's about bend, flexion, contact, activity, drive-drive-drive etc. But nowhere does the old concept of positioning near the poll emerge. I think it has been totally forgotten."
Theresa Sandlin
I learned about positioning at a Harry Whitney clinic. Harry learned directly from Tom Dorrance, and after going to many clinics by various recognizable names, going to Harry's clinics blew my mind. His focus is on teaching one how to first think and understand what’s going on with the horse instead of what piece of equipment or technique to use. https://www.harrywhitney.com
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 10:09 pm:
https://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php
https://www.sustainabledressage.com/collection/natural.php
https://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/work_stretch.php
https://www.harrywhitney.com
The links on my post were dead. Hope these will work.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 10:39 pm:
Susie those websites were VERY good reads, and is how the 2 trainers that broke Hank thought too. They had Hank carrying himself nicely and never used anything other than a bitless bridle or a loose ring snaffle. The biggest thing they taught was to reward the try and let them relax...never forced anything with "gadgets". That was one reason I haven't been able to get along with Hank for such a long time...I was trapping him with my hands, and he was trained to be very soft. I did manage to ruin his self carriage, but we are getting it back now(with a bitless bridle)..through release and reward...slow, but sure. We did 10 canter steps today with self carriage and boy did he get a reward!! We have been slowly working up to it and it is paying off.
I don't know a lot about dressage, but I watched a VERY good trainer for 10 yrs. He always started slow and rewarded a few steps "on the bit" and that's all he would do in a training session, next time a little more. It took him no time to have the horse carrying himself well and working from behind.( I just talked to him the other day and he said he won Kentucky a couple weeks ago) Kentucky what I don't know! He did not like side reins and never used them. The detailed explanation escapes me, but it did make sense...the short version was it could easily cause resistance if used improperly and I saw that more than once at that barn with different people.
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 10:55 am:
I had same experience as Adria with my mare. She fussed a lot with fat Sprenger french link, but settled right down with a Myler comfort snaffle. The Sprenger was a bit too big for her mouth...my busy hands (at the time) probably added to the problem.
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 11:11 am:
Yeah, it was pretty dramatic the change with the Myler bit, it lays nicely over her tongue, and I think she feels she can carry it.
It was quit obvious as soon as I made the change, that it was the thickness of the bit, and it didn't matter, loose ring, egg butt, D-ring.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 3:16 pm:
Susie, I agree totally - BUT if the tack doesn't fit properly a lot of the anxiety will come from being uncomfortable or maybe even in pain. Addressing the tack fit issues, or ruling them out, addressing any/all physical issues first will help the horse be able to move in comfort to find that relaxation and balance in movement.
Course beyond the tack is the person at the end of the reins too. ;)
Adria the links provided will be of great help, but for the basics the bit as well as all the tack used should just fit the horse correctly - period.
A thicker bit is not necessarily a better choice for comfort if it's too big for the horse's mouth, and a really thin bit may not be harsh at all if it fits the horse's mouth correctly and is used with quiet hands.
Susie - relaxation of the poll comes from the hocks.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 11:03 pm:
Terrie, I agree with all you said in your post about proper fit, about the reality that the horse may really be quite green, and about the merits of the bit she's using, your personal choice of bit, ...everything. You said it so well, I didn't think it needed repeating, and was just trying to join the discussion. But if something that I said made it sound like I discounted your contribution, please tell me what it was. I want to participate without being a pain in the &%#. Lately, I've read a couple replies to my posts that cause me to wonder if I ought to just shut up and go away.
I am curious too; what did I say that led you to perceive that I did not understand relationship between a relaxed poll, lightening of the forehand, and what's happening in terms of engagement? Or maybe I really don't understand what you mean in your remark about the poll and hocks. What I believe is that it's important for me to understand the horse's movement and frame in interactive vs. fragmented terms, and that what one part of the body "shows" manifests what's going on throughout. Frankly, every time I hear someone use the words "head-set" I want to scream.
Maybe I'm being defensive, and your post wasn't as critical as it seems to me. I'll admit I that I've encountered a number of people who make assumptions that I am ignorant when they see me using my western saddle, or assume that this is all I know how to do. Maybe now I am making assumptions about people because they do dressage or ride jumpers. 
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 9:56 am:
Susie,
Thanks for posting those links; very good information! I can't believe some of the things people use on their horses to "help" the horse! 
I remember years ago being convinced that a running martingale was needed; and it was suggested to even use it with 4 reins. Yup the curb rein being run through the rings too.
Well, fast forward here, and now I am a 3 part snaffle bit fan. The one with the curved bit and thick middle piece.
And I finally have figured out that it isn't the bit the matters so much as the body language, seat, and other aids. If any thing, the wrong bit annoys or hurts the horse.
I may not win ribbons, or jump anything (well, not intentionally, lol!) but my best guy, Cody, goes along relaxed, responds to my seat, legs, and breathing, and it's good enough for us. (just thinking of the comment, ignorant in a western saddle, )
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 10:37 am:
Hi Angie, I found a snaffle that has a middle part with three little loose donuts in the middle that HB seems to like. I can hear him playing with it as he walks along on the trail. As he has gotten more bridle wise, ride him now with a little broken curb with little 2" shanks. I don't even approve of that kind of bit, but tried it out, out of some curious whim or another, and he quiet, comfortable, more relaxed, and light. Go figure. In response to your brave admission about the running martingale, I used the idea you mentioned too and I cringe when I remember my draw rein period. That's what the local "experts" did at that time. Anyway, I might be such a vocal, opinionated character now out of my guilty conscience, and a desire to make amends to horsedom.
Two good fortunes turned things around. In college I took an intermediate horsemanship course taught by Dr. Robert Miller and saw the outcome of well applied vaquero horsemanship. Later, I read The Complete Training of the Horse and Rider by Alois Podhajsky. Then, putting together the two, I realized that the roots of vaquero horsemanship were in classical riding. Then I started to study and experiment in earnest. I think that the strength of natural horsemanship is in clarifying how the horse learns, and what it needs to feel safe.
"I may not win ribbons, or jump anything (well, not intentionally, lol!) but my best guy, Cody, goes along relaxed, responds to my seat, legs, and breathing, and it's good enough for us." I could not possibly say it better that that!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 4:50 pm:
Suzie, I'm afraid I might have been one of the ones who made you feel persecuted in another thread when we cross posted. I hope you don't"shut up and go away"! You have some great experience, and IMO, it doesn't matter what kind of saddle you sit in--the saddle doesn't make the horseman, it's a combo of brains and empathy.
It appears that you have an abundance of both!
Erika
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 5:36 pm:
Susie!! Please stay and play! you have much to contribute!! I meant no harm, please don't take any offense. I think it was the phrasing used, or possibly not used, that led me astray with your thoughts on "positioning". I will admit I did not go read through all the links so I am the one claiming ignorance here.
It's symantics. (and I probably spelled that wrong *sigh*) The term "positioning" used alone to me means the rider positioning the horse's head. And to equate - head set. Ick.
So I offered a parroted phrase, the poll is directly connected to the the hocks and vice versa. Unless one has lots of hock activity one will not have relaxation at poll (jaw, throat).
When watching a horse move you can see what is happening and help to change it by activating the hocks more. Just rev up the engine and watch/feel the tensions melt away from the throat, and jaw too. Softly on the aids and through. To me there is nothing so rewarding when longing than to watch my horse's throat turn to jello, and nothing like the feel of it when in the saddle. Ahhhh and that is what we all get hooked on, isn't it? It's why we ride (classical dressage), to get that feeling again and again. Yup I'll confess to being addicted, I am a dressage junkie!
And remember that the saddle is just a thing you sit on. Type and style mean nothing really. That and the basics are ALL the same - or should be. That said taking classical principles and applying to any "cow horse" and you will ride just as nicely and quietly and the horse will respond just as nicely and softly.
Objective is to help the horse work within balance of the movement. We prepare the horse before we ask and then we allow the horse to do as asked, staying out of the way as much as possible. It's the preparation that is important. Podhajsky taught this, you have to help the horse be balanced over four legs and prepare correctly for what comes next. Classic principle, like the Dorrance brothers natural way, works with how the horse moves and balances. Common sense really when you pick it all apart, it just makes sense.
Sorry got away from the bit discussion there.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 11:22 pm:
Terri, Erika, thanks for your reassurance. I'll admit to being reactive secondary to experiences prior to HA.
Yes, headset-ik.
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