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  Discussion on Building Muscle over top line in Dressage Horse
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Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 11:05 am:

Dr. O,
My 11 yr old purebred Arabian has been in training 4-5 days per week (45 minute sessions) with our Dressage instructor/trainer for three months now. He is working on 3rd-4th level Dressage movements with great success which requires a lot of collection and engagement from behind. His turnout is limited due to the farm schedule however he has a paddock off of his stall. He is occasionally hand walked to graze.

We would like to see him develop more muscle over his top line and were wondering if a dietary supplement could help in addition to his physical conditioning.


His current diet includes

15lb of Timothy a day over 4 feedings
1lb of Safe Guard 2x daily (label below)

Controlled starch formula: SafeChoice™, with its controlled starch, highly digestible fiber formula, aids in balancing the energy from these multiple sources in the diet. Controlled starch diets are widely recommended for use in horses that are prone to metabolic disturbances related to high starch intake.

· High quality, balanced nutrition: Calorie-rich fats from vegetable oil, controlled starch levels, guaranteed amino acid levels, vitamins and minerals have been scientifically balanced and formulated for every life stage. Formulated with organic trace mineral complexes, added yeast culture and Direct Fed Microbials.

· Enhanced processing: SafeChoice™ is pelleted to enhance the digestibility of the nutrients critical to a horse's health and performance.

Guaranteed Analysis (min. amounts except where noted)

Crude Protein
14.0%

Lysine
0.80%

Methionine
0.30%

Threonine
min. 0.50%

Crude Fat
7.0%

Crude Fiber
max. 15.0%

Calcium
min. 0.90%-max. 1.20%

Phosphorus
0.75%

Copper
50 ppm

Zinc
160ppm

Selenium
0.6 ppm

Vitamin A
3,500IU/lb

Vitamin D
350 IU/lb

Vitamin E
100 IU/lb

Biotin
.45mg/lb


1 scoop of beet pulp 2x daily

15 alfalfa cubes 2x daily.

He also gets supplemented with Megacell multi vit, and Mare magic which is raspberry leaf.

His medications include, Cimetidine 2GMs QD, Depoprovera for calming,
Demorsedan (Sp) sedation for shoes .3 cc every six weeks as he wasn't not shoed until this past Sept and did not tolerate it well. He was last dewormed in June, fecals negative.

He weighs 950 lbs. His last physical examination was in Feb for his HMO which was head to toe to include checking for gait abnormalities. Everything was WNL.

Could it be his general conformation? He has always had a slight build and perhaps won't develop the muscleing of other breeds? Would any changes to his diet help? Any suggestions?

Thank you!

v/r
Corinne
Member:
shanson

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 11:41 am:

I'll defer to Dr. O on nutrition, but have a question. Has he been in dressage training for only 3 months? Or, did he have dressage training prior to putting him with current trainer?

I ask because a correct dressage program is a systematic, step-wise process of training & conditioning. This process enables the horse to eventually progress to more difficult, collected work. With correct work, the back should develop properly. This is important with any horse, but particularly with Arabians who (I think) tend to be tense in the back.
Member:
shanson

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 11:43 am:

Apologies to you, Corinne. Disregard my question. I see now that your profile addresses this.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 12:06 pm:

No worries Sharon, he has been training in Dressage with me for five years. We typically ride 5-6 days per week and I am showing in the 60's at first level, schooling second after having gone back to the basics at TR level last summer due to some inconsistent training we had where we were stationed with the USAF. I stopped riding at 13 weeks in my pregnancy at which point we put him in full training with my dressage instructor who is a USDF medaled Grand Prix rider and a USEF "S" dressage judge. In addition to her 4-5 day per week training sessions she also rides him in monthly Clinics with Jim Koford (who currently is on a USDF scholarship to train in Europe with Conrad Schumaker for the summer for having trained the top scoring young stallion bred in the US and Patti Perucci who is ranked in the top 50 in the world) All and all we have some very very great training opportunities and the horse is getting accolades.
I forgot to mention that we did make additions to the diet in Feb when the vet noticed some weight loss and loss of conditioning after an exam for a viral condition. That's when we added the beet pulp, the multi vit, the alfalfa, and additional hay flakes. His weight is normal for him now. He has been on the new diet for three months. Perhaps it will take at least 6 months to build the top line back up from the weight loss and it's only been three?
Member:
terrido

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 12:20 pm:

Corinne, of course Dr.O. can answer this the best, but I think you have the probable cause. With his weight loss and therefore muscle loss it will take time to build it back up. It amazes me how quickly muscle, and strength, disappears.

Only thing I can think to add might be more calories in general to give him a bit more bulk, or "potential muscle" as it were. But if you think his body condition overall is where he should be, then his current diet is working well for him, and his exercise amount.

And of course, no offense meant here, correct and consistent work both on longe and under saddle is what will build his topline. Basically, he has to use those muscles to build them. :-)
Member:
dres

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 1:48 pm:

Will chime in and agree with Terrie.. Diet is an important building block.. but without the correct and consistent work under saddle the muscle will not appear ..
I have seen several pure bred Arabs in middle school and upper school training.. One in particular I was amazed on how his body had changed in the year I had not seen him.. He bulked up in all the right places. . Then again , Corinne, some Arabs just won't bulk up.. As long as he is able to carry himself and rider correctly I would hope he is building a nice top line..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 2:58 pm:

Hello Corinne,
Do you have specific indications of weak muscle in his movements or is it the appearance? The top line of the horse is not muscle it is fat. You will notice the appearance of top line is one of the chief indicators of degree of fattiness in the Henneke condition scoring system. If appearance is the problem increased caloric intake is the answer as suggested by others above. As to whether you have given the new diet enough time, probably so but the real way to answer this question is to decide is he continuing to put on weight.
DrO
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 3:02 pm:

As the majority of you know I have an MSS/Sports Medicine degree working with human athletes and a lot of the same principals apply with the equine athlete so yes I agree that with any program where you want muscular growth consistent training working the muscles groups is essential. That we are doing...he could not have better training, we just want to know if we are meeting all the nutritional building blocks to encourage that process, as well as a time frame that it's probable to build muscle after weight loss (he lost about 20 lbs)comesurate with the level of work he is doing. Additionally the muscles used and to the extent in which they are used in his training now are a bit different from when I was the primary rider, first and second level. He is now working third, fourth level.
I don't live in VA with the horse currently since I am in NJ to have my baby while my husband is deployed so this is just a question that has was raised when I spoke with our trainer last and I am doing the research.

Thanks for any and all input. It's greatly appreciated.

v/r
Corinne
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 3:12 pm:

Thanks Dr. O. No there is no weakness in any of the muscle groups present. Of course he is continuing to build strength to enable him to sit his hind end down more which is being required of him. He is not losing weight and this morning in correspondence I was told his belly is nice and round but the muscle defination in his hind quarters and shoulders is not optimal. Any thing additionally we can do to help that from a nutritional perspective? I am not sure we can.
Maybe a fat additive? The safe choice is on the lower end of recommended amount per kg but he gets alot of forage.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 3:17 pm:

Sorry I reread your response Dr. O, it's not easy to think cleary these days. Are you saying that he will look more round in the hind and in the shoulders with more weight? It's not a muscle thing at all? The only think I can think of adding is oil or perhaps increase the grain. Thanks for being patient with me.
Member:
terrido

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 4:08 pm:

First as you know Corrinne, a few months of training even at 5 days a week for an equine is not necessarily enough to SHOW alot of muscling improvement. Tho, it may be that his overall nutritional intake and the amount of exercise is keeping him on the trim side. Muscle mass needs fuel to build as you know. So though he may be fine nutritionally and exercise-wise to maintain where he is, his muscle "definition" may not show for another 3 to 6 months.

He should however (imho) begin to show SOME difference in muscling after a few months of steady work.

If you want more mass I'd not up his grain, I'd up his fat content. Safe Choice is a nice "stable" feed, it's pretty low in fats though. Nutrena does have a hig fat feed called Empower, you could add a bit of that to his regimen. I use Empower and not so much oil these days, it's rice bran based and high in good fats and fatty acids which my mare needs. Or heck just throw in some 'Weight Builder' (I prefer Farham's).

One thing I know how to do is safely pack on the pounds! I have a thoroughbred that one winter lost 400 pounds, I almost lost him! When he gets thin I know how to help him gain weight safely. Calories. Personally I just hate working with beet pulp. LOL

Whether or not your horse is gaining muscle, well you'll know and your trainer should know. When he has the strength to carry himself balanced, round, and really shift his weight onto his backend - and carry well enough - to do 4th level moves (correctly and relaxed), then you'll know he has muscle! haha Even if he looks lean and mean.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 4:12 pm:

Hello Corinne,

I would consider this a performance horse in heavy work and would think a diet higher in fat and a little lower in protein might do the trick. It seems that much of what you are feeding him is roughage ( hay, beetpulp etc) and not much grain. You might want to try Triple Crown Complete and back off on all the roughage a bit.

You probably remember my post on my Road Rash filly. I had a heck of a hard time keeping weight on her and I was feeding quite a bit of hay and feed. I used to call her triangle ass because I could never develop her hind end muscles to my satisfaction even with a lot of work and a lot of feed and she never seemed to gain weight. I tried several different high fat feeds before I landed on the Triple Crown Complete.

The Complete has everything in it. Beet pulp, rice bran oil, vitamins, minerals probiotics etc.
The only things I add are OCD pellets, garlic and electrolytes because she is on Lasix.

She is not a big horse, although she seems to have grown since I put her on the Complete.She has filled out, I can't call her triangle ass anymore. She has muscled up well and she is racing well. She is eating less feed about 9 lbs a day( she was on 12-14 lbs before with other feeds). She eats her fill of timothy alfalfa mixed hay and she is turned out on grass about 8 hours at night.

My theory with her and most of my horses is that in order for them to get muscled up they need to have the caloric content in their feed so that when worked hard the fat and not the muscle is used for fuel. This doesn't mean they have to look like porkers, what it means is that the fuel(calories) they consume has to meet their energy needs and if it means they have to be a little heavier thats fine with me. I look at it as if they have a reservoir( extra fat) from which to pull what they need from.

Reaching a happy medium between feed and work is not an easy thing to do and I know sometime in a boarding barn where you are not there to monitor what your horse looks like from day to day or week to week makes it a lot harder because you may not have a say in what kind of feed, hay etc. and how much gets used but you do what you can do and hope that the people that are taking care of your horse have his best interests at heart.

Good luck with your horse and your baby.
Rachelle
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 3:34 am:

Yes that is what I am saying.
DrO
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 8:53 am:

Thanks Dr. O, I am looking into a Fat supplement this morning! Thank you for clarifying "Top line" for me! Much appreciated!

v/r
Corinne
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 9:31 am:

Dr O,
Below was stated by you to another horse owner whose horse had a fat belly who wanted to increase body condition. Demetrius is getting a fat belly on the above regimen and not putting fat on the top line. The safechoice (what the barn feeds) is on the lower end of the recommended daily amount for a performance horse in moderate activity. The label states it should be 7-9 lbs for his weight and he gets two lbs daily but he is a VERY high energy horse and I am worried to feed more of that because he might get dangerous. The hay is the best quality we can buy purchased from Dominion Hay an actual Hay Store in Suffolk VA and the alfalfa is cubes, also purchased. Instead of increasing the grain (and decreasing the hay which he will do on his own) Would a straight fat be the best choice?

"To reduce the belly size you need to understand a bit about the physiology here"
"To reduce gut size, while increasing her overall condition, you have 2 choices"
1) "You need to greatly increase the quality of the forage"
2) "Increase the amount of grain"
"Of course these two can be mixed in a million ways"

Please advise. Thanks!

v/r
Corinne
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 8:12 am:

Corinne your suggestion makes sense to me. For more on this see Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Fats and Oils in the Diet of Horses.
DrO
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