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Discussion on Barn Sour
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 7, 2005 - 11:09 am:
My four-year-old quarterhorse is having trouble leaving the safety of the barn. I have read much on the subject and am trying a few methods to help him overcome his fears. I am hoping patience and persistence will win him over, but lately I am losing my own confidence. I try always to keep him soft, relaxed and on a loose rein, while asking him to walk away. We get as far as the end of the driveway, and he begins to get very agitated. Some days its difficult to even get him to the end of the driveway. I try to get him to move a little further than he wants, then I ask him to turn around and we go back. We repeat this 2, sometimes 3 times, and I try to end when he gets further than he has before. (Not always successful at that).
One day, I tried walking with other horses. He got farther, even crossed the road, but as soon as he "noticed" he was away from home, he panicked. He tried to go back and I fought with him to keep some control. I asked him to just stop in that spot, and eventually got him to do that, then asked him to walk five steps forward (away from the barn) and then asked him to turn around and go back home. This was only accomplished after struggling for some time. Once at the barn, I lunged him for 15 minutes using Clinton Anderson's technique of training for respect. (Lots of turns and backing up).
Always there are helpful people around trying to give me advice. Many say I should be more forceful and MAKE him go forward, rather than asking. ("Just KICK him!!). They often tell me not to let him have his way or he will keep thinking he can. Is that the situation we are in?
I do think I'm afraid when my horse gets to dancing around and pawing at the ground. I'm too old to go flying without a parachute. Also, he is young, and inexperienced. He is always on the low end of the herd hierarchy, and somewhat insecure and under-confident, by nature. I want to believe that if I work on keeping him relaxed and be patient enough to give him the time he needs, that eventually he will go farther and farther away. Am I foolish to think this?
Any help or insight you can give me would be appreciated.
Happy trails,
Linda
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 7, 2005 - 12:00 pm:
Hi when I got my horse almost 4 years ago he was green broke and terrified of everything. I actually would take him out for walks like you would a dog. I would walk the trails I would eventualy ride. I would stop and Let him have some grass while I sat and had a rest. He started enjoying being away from the barn because he new that I would keep him safe. He would get to graze and we always came home.everyone thought I was nuts but it helped alot, not to mention my exersice. I also have an old post about being terrified on the trail which had some great tips in it.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/16683.html
Katrina
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 1:19 pm:
Hello, Linda. So sorry your QH is having trouble leaving the barn!
When I got my horse 2 years ago, she wouldn't leave the barn unless her pasture buddy was with her. To get past this hurdle, I started by walking her (on a lead line) to the end of the property, turning around and then going back. The next few walks covered the same route until I felt she was OK with this distance. Next, I walked her to one telephone pole beyond the property line, turned around and went back. From that point on, I kept adding one more telephone pole until we were able to get a half mile or so from the barn where there's a trailhead. We keep going farther down the trail with each walk until I felt it was time to put her saddle on and start riding the 'route'.
It took months of going for walks and there were set-backs at which time we shortened the distance to her comfort level and then resumed the 'add one more telephone pole' routine.
My little 'fraidy' horse willingly leaves the barn now. She's sometimes tenser when we ride out alone (especially if it's windy), but the point is that we CAN!
My mare was 12 when I got her and she's a rescue horse so there was a lot more going on that just being barn sour. Please don't ask me to explain the logic behind the routine I came up with--it just felt like the right thing to do and it worked for us.
Best of luck. Please keep us posted on your progress.
dyd
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 4:24 pm:
Linda, clinton has a tape for correcting horses under saddle a real nice learning tool.
Do you have complete control of your horses movement at the barn? If so you use the same concepts in clintons training for respect, and you work the horse at the barn then keep make gradual moves away from the barn, and then down the drive.
If you can handle it under saddle, I ask my horse to do figure eights, you are asking your horse to stay moving, I prefer 8's because the horse doesn't get to build up speed, and they have to focus more. Increase your distance each time. Whe n your horse stops fussing allow him to stop and rest you can also use this time to flex his head and neck.
Any time your horse fights to go back to the barn make sure to work them hard at the barn also, he will learn good time is away from the barn when he relaxes and gets to stop.
If he wants to run back, use your figure eights or disengage the back end, backing up is also useful but he will probably be real hard to back up.
If you find yourself afraid when he is doing this you can do things to de-tense your self, sing a song, recite abc's etc. If you are tense you are fueling his need to go home and you may need someone who is more confident to do this for you.
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Member:
Longhorn
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 11:49 pm:
There's a time-honored solution for barn sour horses that has more to do with making the barn less appealable then actually getting the horse to move away from it. Ranch horses are almost never put up right after they come in from working. They're expected to stand, completely tacked up or not, sometimes for hours before they're put up at the end of a day. They're not being abused or mistreated, or made to stand in the hot sun with no water or shade. After they're watered, they're asked to stand quietly and patiently. They learn there's no point to rushing back if they're only going to have to stand and wait around.
This is a variation on the herd-bound training where the horse is worked (not punished) around the barn area but then is allowed to rest away from the barn. I read that you've lunged him for respect once you get back to the barn (I love Clinton Anderson's techniques), but does your horse associate this work with you or the barn area? If you have the stamina, you may consider working him astride once you get back to the barn. That is, don't punish him, but ride him in patterns, back him, turn him, walk, trot, canter, etc., then walk him away from the barn to rest. Consistency is also very important. If you develop a habit pattern of working him then bringing him back to the barn, untacking him, brushing him, and putting him up to eat, he'll naturally prefer that to going on a stinky ol' trail ride away from his buddies. If, however, you work him around the barn, rest him away from the barn, then have him stand for a while before putting him up, he may get the idea that being away from the barn is way more restful and fun. The length he stands before he gets to go back to his stall or pasture and eat is related to the severity of his barn sour attitude. So, a really barn sour horse may stand for half an hour to an hour, a complacent horse stands for 10 to 15 minutes.
One other point is from Mark Rashid's technique of training. You and your horse are a herd of two. In order for your horse to accept you as the passive leader (as opposed to the aggressive bully), he needs to trust you unconditionally. So although I believe respect is an absolute must, trust is also an essential and very difficult trait to cultivate between you and your horse. But it can be done over time. You have to invent situations where your horse just trusts you and your judgment. Trust is not resigning to your power or aggressiveness, it's more fundamental than that. It takes confidence on your part, stamina, and lots and lots of time. If you're anxious about getting bucked off with one of his fits, he can't rely on you to protect him from those deadly mailboxes and shrubbery. At the same time, you shouldn't put yourself dangerously at risk. That's why I like D.'s advice about walking the horse in hand instead of riding him. I had a personal trainer that said any training you do on a horse's back, you should be able to do on the ground. Do risky stuff on the ground first (where it's safer) then, as D. did, start over while astride and it'll cut the risk and schooling in half.
It also takes some stamina (boy howdy, doesn't it) to ride, ride, ride your horse around until you get the desired result. That's one I'm still workin' on. Oh yeah, patterns, circles, turns, backing, walk, trot, canter.... how come I end up tuckered out instead of him?
And then there's that essential horse training axiom in any circumstance... "Throw away the watch."
You sound like a patient, well educated equestrian. Buen suerte!
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 10:41 am:
Thank you for all your suggestions.
Katrina: I read the entire thread you referenced and found it very helpful. I think I will try the picnic idea tonight. I have walked him toward the trail, but never went very far into it. I think it may be helpful to work up to hand-walking the entire route.
Dyd: Your words give me faith he may be better one day. I am patient enough now, but lately have worried things will never get better.
Cheryl: I spent the entire winter working him in the arena. He is great and gets better all the time. I do feel in control in there and your question made me realize I may be tensing up as soon as we leave the barn area, which is causing him to become uneasy. I'm going to try the singing idea, in fact I think I'll try singing while hand-walking him also. I've noticed when I ride him and he gets worried about being too far away, he turns around to check and see that I'm still there. Maybe he'll feel more confident if he hears the same sounds in both situations.
Laura: I only recently read something by John Lyons in which he brings up the situation you are describing. Since I have to do my riding after work and our barn feeds around 5:00, his incentive to get back for dinner is very great. I do think this has contributed to my horse's barn sourness. Recently, I started un-tacking him outside, rather than using the crossties in the barn. I have slowed down my pace and leave him standing much longer than I used to. I also stopped giving him treats after riding, just lots of pats, kisses, and praise. I've begun hand-walking after un-tacking as another way to slow down his dinner-bell. Unfortunately, our circumstances make it impossible to not feed him when he does finally get into his stall. We've only been doing this for a couple of weeks, so it may take some time to see results. I've never left him stand as long as an hour, but that is something I may consider.
I have tried working him, both riding and lunging, when at the barn. Maybe I'm impatient, but that doesn't seem to be making much impact on him. It seems to me he is so upset by leaving that the work seems worthwhile. As though he'd rather work hard and be safe, than go easy and be afraid. He is truly king of the chickens, but I love him anyway.
I will keep you posted on our progress.
Linda
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 10:54 am:
Hi,
Have you tried trucking him away from the barn for a trail ride. Often when the barn is not there it is a completely different horse. You could use the above references to start getting him away from the barn and also truck him off the property to help him get used to trails when he does not know which way the barn is.
Eventually you will be able to do both.
Ella 
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 11:06 am:
Ella,
I haven't tried trucking him away as he is so nervous right now I've been afraid that would be worse. It's interesting to think he would behave better. Has anyone else seen this happen?
Linda
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 1:28 pm:
Laura, you have some very good advice. I didn't think about untacking right away and feeding I never have, I forget about some having to.
In the past I have made a small pen out of portable panels away from the horse's pen, to leave the horse in while I finish my chores after riding. After chores are done I feed, this also ensures my horse gets the exact feed he needs for working hard without having to compete, I do not have separate pens for each horse, so this is why I have done this at times. The other thing I have done is put my horse on the trailer and feed there after I am done cleaning up.
The other thing is to desensitize your horse alot as much as you can with anything you can think of this builds their confidence so they are not so fearful, if he has more confidence he will be more receptive to being away from his comfort zone.
I have found when starting my horses it was easier to do it away from the house and barn, I just go down the road a ways. No friends to distract.
Linda, don't forget that your horse is young and it takes time for them to build confidence, and I find they will get their confidence after you have built your's up, repetition builds confidence.
After having a bad accident on a mule of a horse I had to build my confidence back up. When you sing or even just talk out loud to your horse, it normalizes your breathing and takes your mind off being nervous, I now can recite the alphabet back wards without thinking, and I have had many a deep conversation with my horses, some I swear answered back...
I also have cheated and taken a mp3 player loaded with tunes, and keep one ear piece in, so I can relax, using only one ear piece allows me to still know what is going on around me for safety. It is a good way to work on patterns and not be distracted. I have even just taken the ear piece out and shared the tunes with my horse.
cheryl
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 2:15 pm:
If it is truly wanting to get back to the barn or back to buddies, taking them away does make it better because the thing they are trying to get to is no longer there. Maybe taking him away with a friend at first so he has a bit of security and then trying it alone later.
If he is simply a nervous horse it may not be so successful.
I always start mine trail riding away from home. Usually at a friends who has two very quiet trail horses. Mine pick up the cues from the others.
Ella ))
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Monday, Oct 17, 2005 - 4:29 pm:
This is an update to an old thread about the progress I have made using your suggestions. Since June, when I posted my difficulty in getting my young horse to leave the safety of the barn, I have tried the following:
I hand-walked him on the trail for several weeks allowing him to eat grass and generally be relaxed and happy with his time away from the barn. This was very successful, as he was nervous at first then relaxed and even looked forward to our little hikes.
At the barn, I stopped giving him treats and began to slow down the un-tacking pace. I left him standing saddled, then after un-saddling, I led him back into the arena and worked on Clinton Anderson's desensitizing methods. This has also been very successful, as he no longer hurries to get back to the barn after riding.
Now I am riding him away from the barn and toward the trail. He seems pretty good here, but not great. It is slow progress, which is better than no progress at all. The one problem I have is he now thinks he can eat when we are out of the trail since that used to be what we did while hand-walking. Should I let him eat grass? I don't want to encourage this while he is tacked up, but I also don't want to discourage his progress. When I do stop him, I hold the reins firmly and don't let him put his head down. Does that seem like an appropriate method or will I lose the soft contact with his mouth? Frankly, he seems rather ticked off that I won't allow him to eat now that he's had a taste of the grass in that area. Have I created a whole new problem while trying to correct an old one? I cannot ride him on any trails that don't have grass.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Linda
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Oct 17, 2005 - 4:44 pm:
Congratulations on your great progress, Linda.
As far as eating on the trail, I have no problem with allowing my horse to eat as long as it is something I have chosen to allow, but if I ask him to keep his head up, he needs to do it . . . DON'T keep pressure on his mouth after he halts. In fact, as soon as he halts AND breaks at the poll, THEN you should release the bit pressure immediately and consistently. If he puts his head down to eat, just lock your elbows so he bumps the bit. When he brings his head up, release the pressure. If he does it again, repeat and release. Again . . . repeat and release. It may take hundreds of times, but don't lose heart as he will finally learn to ask first. He will eventually ask by pushing down with his nose lightly and waiting to see if you will allow him to eat. If you hold the reins so he bumps into the bit, then he will no that it isn't the right time. If you DrOp the reins on his withers, he will know it is okay to eat.
Everytime he tries to DrOp his nose to the ground and eat, it is an opportunity for you to reinforce his obedience to the feel of pressure in his mouth. It's just SO important not to keep the pressure there even if we only get 1/2 second of obedience. We have to let go and trust, and if the horse breaks that trust then we get a chance to teach him some more. Okay?
Good job!
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Member:
Denise43
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 - 9:48 am:
I agree with this completely and it does work. I have a young 4 year old that although he is not barn sour, food is his life. In his early training, I wanted his trail riding experience to be good and I would stop at the half way point and allow him to eat grass. Although I taught him that while on the trail and while I am mounted he is not allowed and he has learned this very well. I also invested in a halter/bridle so that he knows he can eat grass when the bit is out ONLY and when I dismount. Other than that, he is to be in work-mode. My opinion is that you have to make it a good experience for you and your horse - I mean they are carrying us for "our" enjoyment, why not allow them a bit of a reward. The key is to always be consistent and let them know there is a time and place -- like Holly says, it's an opportunity to teach them something and to listen to us in all areas of their training too. I do exactly as Holly said with the bit. My horse will "ask" to eat and he is really great about accepting the answer because he knows I am fair. ;-)
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 - 1:04 pm:
Halter/bridle combos are a great invention. }I have a friend who used to do a lot of long-distance riding. She told me that she wanted her horse to know that it was okay to eat with a bit in his mouth because as they rode down the trail for hours, she wanted him to be able to pick at grass/trees along the way. Either way, whether you decide to use a halter/bit combo or just a regular bridle, the key is that your horse obey your cue. And as you are consistent, your horse will learn what to expect from you and will be content with that.
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Member:
Denise43
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 - 2:19 pm:
Yes, my friend who does endurance is the same way. She said as long as the horse can eat and NOT change pace she allowed a nibble along the way. BUT, I will never be that type of rider. ;-) To be honest, I probably enjoy the stop as much as he does midway. ;-) Denise
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Member:
Heidim
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 - 8:54 pm:
I'm working with a barn sour mare, made that way when my too-young daughter rode her at a too-young age. In other words, I am having to retrain her, which is an experience in itself. I like the idea of making the "away" experience pleasant for a young, insecure horse and, Linda, you have done that well. You have widened your horse's world and let him know that it is an okay place and that you are a rider to be TRUSTED. Now, based on what's going on at present with the eating, it is time to teach him that you are also a rider to be RESPECTED. My mare already knows the world is okay, but she wants her rider (currently me) to believe that she is in charge. She does this by stopping unasked, shaking her head, squealing and crow hopping unexpectedly. Ever time she does this, I turn her in one or two tight circles, depending on the seriousness of the offense. In doing so, I am teaching her that it is a lot of work to misbehave. Horses are naturally lazy (something I learned from a John Lyons seminar) and will avoid behavior that causes them to work excessively. This technique is working great with this mare, as she is almost over all her bad habits. I believe it will work with the grass eating too if, every time your horse DrOps his head WITHOUT BEING CUED, you turn him in a circle. All my horses and mules are allowed to eat if and only if I cue them (in my case, by pushing on the middle of their neck and saying "head down.") Turning in circles is very easy to do and rarely causes a horse to escalate into scary behavior. As with raising kids, it's important to create a balance between nurture and discipline. From the sound of it, you are well on your way to having both.
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 - 10:59 am:
Thank you! These seem like excellent suggestions and I will give them a try. It's wonderful to have all your expertise to guide me through this experience. I'll let you know how things go.
Happy trails,
Linda
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