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Discussion on Treating draft horse scratches without restraint
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New Member:
jent
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 5:04 pm:
Hi everyone,
I'm a new member and this is my first post so plz forgive me if it's in the wrong place. I have two Clydesdales whose scratches I am treating. The 5yo stands like a dream and tolerates the procedure. The 10yo, however, does not. The heels of his hind legs are so painful that he alternates raising and lowering each leg, and his fronts are sore from the shifting weight. When I approach him to apply the ointment, he raises his leg 'ouch ouch ouch' and if I get too close, he tries to kick. I don't have shoeing stocks and I don't have anyone to hold a twitch for me... what should I do? He won't get better unless I can apply the treatment, but I can't get safely close enough to do so.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 5:33 pm:
Jen Please be careful! You may have to get pro help whether vet or somekinda trainer. They do make a no hold twitch. maybe some Ace altho Im not sure if they still will kick on that.
I think a kicking,biting or horse that strikes needs some serious punishment. Im not into touchy feely handleing when it comes to that kind of harmful behavior. It could become a bad habit even when hes not feeling ouchie.
Have you been giving him any pain meds for the ouchies?
Stay safe and welcome to HA
I love the big guys so if you get a chance post pics
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 5:56 pm:
Hi Jen, Years ago I had a similar problem with a warmblood mare[and she seriously kicked!] I found that I was able to tie her frontleg up with a lungeline [around the lower leg , pull the leg up and strap around her neck with a quick release knot]did it for weeks but perhaps a draft is to heavy for such action?
Jos
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New Member:
jent
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 6:08 pm:
Thx... I'd have a hard time lifting his leg and keeping it lifted since he doesn't like to bear much weight on his hind legs.
I have a hard time invoking severe punishment when he's just reacting because it hurts. If he were kicking for no reason, that would be different. He's just saying 'stay away, it hurts enough already'. I am worried about him being leg shy after this, but if he is, hopefully I can overcome that with positive reinforcement. Here's a pic of him with his previous owner.... he's all spit-polished here and looks regal.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 7:20 pm:
Jen,
When I am in a pinch and do not have anyone handy to help me, I use a blanket clamp on my horses chin. It's enough to keep them pre-occupied and focused on something else when I am trying to do something they don't particularly like. Most hardware stores carry clamps, just make sure they are not too tight. The one's I use are about 6 inches long and are made for clamping together the front on a cooler.
Rachelle
Your horse is a beauty.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 7:54 pm:
I understand. But please be safe.
And Wow he is FANTASTIC!
L
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New Member:
jent
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 10:30 pm:
Thanks everyone.... I used a paint stick tonight which put enough distance between him and me. I got the worst of them, slowly. Started by grooming him, including his feathers... I think he was happy for the attention. I didn't take him out of his stall... he's not very mobile, poor guy.
Here's a pic of Mitch, the other Clyde who's legs I shaved. He was a little prancy tonight in the cross ties, but he'd been in his stall all day (can't use fly spray) so I tried not to get too impatient.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 12:48 am:
Those boys are just majestic!
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Member:
lilcrow
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 2:31 am:
Jen,
Great topic! I'm very interested in this subject. I have a Percheron mare who developed scratches in one of her recent pasture situations. I'm new to drafts and even tho I knew that they were at risk for this, I really had no idea what I was looking for/or at, when it began to manifest.
You should also know that what you are dealing with is totally different than anything that any other breed (save Shires) has to deal with. In other words, my mare developed scratches, but what you have is specific to Clydesdales and Shires, even to the extent that it involves putting the horses on a special diet. In my search for information for my mare I found this information that I hope maybe helpful to you. https://www.sarashaldaperformancehorses.com/id5.html
This gal has a VERY intensive, complex program to treat her horses and interestingly she does NOT recommend shaving the feathers. Her belief is that they are necessary to these two breeds well-being. I'm sure some folks may think she's a bit over the top, but take a look at her horses and read about her experience with the drafts. She knows a heck of a lot more than anyone else I've run into on or off the Internet.
I'm too believe in staying safe, and in my horses being well mannered; but I'm with you as far as using punishment in an attempt to control behavior that stems from pain. My mare has been very good about being treated, but one leg was significantly more painful than the other. At times when it was just too much, she would jerk her leg up, not to kick, but to pull it away. This could have been just as dangerous as a kick, but she had no intention of trying to lash out or "misbehave."
At the very beginning of her treatment, I decided to give her Bute, just until things cooled down a bit and she wasn't quit so sore. It helped make the treatment more tolerable for her and easier for me. It didn't take long, 2 or 3 days and I was able to skip the Bute and just do the treatments (shampoo, mild iodine rinse).
Hope there's something here that helps.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 7:56 am:
Welcome JenT,
The article associated with this discussion was designed exactly for this purpose: to train horses to safely tolerate mildly aversive procedures. Read it, study it, learn it, then design a program using the principles. If you wish to post here your program I would be glad to review it.
DrO
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New Member:
jent
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 8:49 am:
Thanks Nancy... I've read everything on Sara's web page. She uses shoeing stocks. My question is less about treatment at this point and more about the horse's behavior associated with it.
Prince has been on bute now 2x/day for 7 days and we're going to decrease to 1x/day beginning today. But it still concerns me because I don't think he's had much relief from the scratches.
Dr O - I read the article briefly and must read it again... the situation is so urgent at this point that I'm tempted to ask the vet to come and sedate him so we can get a thorough cleaning/treatment in.... I don't think he trimmed enough of the feathers in the first place.
And as far as the feathers go, I understand that they exist for a purpose and are not just there for aesthetics. However, in order to be through and not take 3 hours per leg to dig through layer upon layer of hair to find the sores, I decided to shave him. It's in his best interest to have these resolved as soon as possible, and quite honestly, I can't take that much time every day. I'm a single parent with 2 teenage daughters - 1 who shows almost every weekend, 5 dogs, my own house, and a full time career to support all of this ;) And I board these guys about 20 mins from my house... so time is precious and I'm willing to do what it takes, including going to the barn 2x day at this point, but there has to be some reasonability here too....
Thanks so much for all of your advice and support... I love these guys and feel badly that this condition has gotten so acute in both of them.
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Member:
lilcrow
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 9:32 am:
I think your idea of having the vet sedate him to get a good, thorough beginning to his treatment is a great idea. Just make sure he's in the stocks so he doesn't fall on you! I'm always a bit squeamish about getting under a sedated horse. I haven't seen one actually fall if it wasn't planned, but they don't have the best control over where they put their feet, and God knows you can't afford even a bump from one of those feet. Aren't these horses incredible! My mare is 17.2 and about 1900 lbs. and I'm pretty sure your guys are bigger than she is, they look bigger. Your horses are in magnificent flesh and condition. It is such a joy to see drafts that are taken care of the way they should be. All too often folks feed like they're feeding a QH or standard sized horse and they do require a good deal more feed than that.
I'm curious, do your horses drive?
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New Member:
jent
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 11:01 am:
Thanks Nancy. Prince is 18hh and Mitch is 18.1hh. They get 3 flakes of hay in the morning and 2 at night, plus grain and a vitamin E supplement. They're on a dry lot to control their grazing and every so often, I'll take them out one at a time and let them graze for 15-20 mins.
Mitch is broke to drive although I do not have the equipment and have never driven him. Prince is not.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 10:53 pm:
How bout a paint roller with a 10 ft long handle. Saturate the roller in medicine and then start painting. He may accept it if desensitized first.
at least you wouldnt be under him if he falls over during sedation.
L
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Member:
jent
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Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 12:05 am:
LOL... good idea... BUT the ointment is expensive.... $40 for the tub the size of a noxema jar. After this one's gone, I'm gonna make my own with a mix of desitin, neosporin, and hyDrOcortizone.
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Member:
lilcrow
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Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 9:26 am:
I know exactly what you're talking about Jen. When I got the meds for my mare, I got them from the vet, no farm call charges or vet check charges or anything like that, just the meds alone cost me $98.00. Of course I had her on SMZ for about 10 days and it is terribly expensive, and I got a tube of Bute and it's also VERY expensive. Let's face it, there's nothing cheap about having a horse/horses.
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Member:
jent
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Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 10:07 am:
That's for sure Nancy, but I wouldn't have it any other way. My 2nd husband left because (one of the reasons) he was jealous of the money/time I spent with my horses. Good riddance.
On a similar note (and I know I'm hijacking my own thread), did you know that you can't get bute in tablet form anymore? Only powder and paste.
Price per pound though, my horses' vet bills are cheaper than my dogs'!!!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 10:30 am:
Jen, I just purchased a bottle of bute in tablet form maybe 6 weeks ago...are you sure your vet wasn't simply out of it? I'd be curious as to what he said about that as I'd be lost without a bottle of bute always in the barn.
DrO, can you confirm that bute is no longer avail in tabs?
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Member:
jent
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Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 11:06 am:
Hi Fran.... no, I'm positive that he said it can no longer be ordered. He scrounged to find whatever bute he had to put in his truck for his own use. I posted this question on the 'medications' board too.
Jen
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Member:
jent
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Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 11:14 am:
Ok, well I just spoke to the office mgr at our vet clinic who really knows what's going on  and she said that it was a temporary glitch with their supplier only... bute tabs are still on the market. Sorry for the false alarm.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 2:07 pm:
Thanks for double checking Jen!
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 3:13 pm:
JenT, what about a kitchen tool like a rubber spatula? Maybe you could clamp a broomstick onto it to make it longer.
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Member:
jent
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Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 6:16 pm:
Hi Linda... that's a thought. I'm not sure I'd get enough leverage though. I went to the barn this afternoon at 2pm and he was laying flat... hadn't even finished his breakfast. I took the opportunity to pick his feet and dig through the feathers that were exposed... found more sores. He's not going to get better until I can find them all so I called the vet and he's going to come on Tues afternoon to sedate him so we can clip him well. I'm going to do what I can between now and then with scissors.... he'll tolerate it when he's laying down.
He's down to 1 dose of bute a day so after I gave it to him, he got up and finished his breakfast. He's got a long thick mane that I braided to keep his neck a little cooler while he's in his stall.
Vet said he'd checked with an internist at MI St Univ to see if he was missing something. Internist said he's seen drafts get this way from scratches alone... so I'm sure that once we know what we're dealing with under all of that hair, we can get after it.
In the meantime, I'm looking for horse property.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 - 9:39 am:
Jen, where in MI are you? If you're close enough, perhaps I can offer some help? I think I remember from one of your earlier posts that you didn't have an extra pair of helping hands. Let me know.
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Member:
jent
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 - 5:05 pm:
Aw Fran... that's so kind of you. I'm in the Midland-Bay City-Saginaw area of MI. We looked at some property today... one is very promising. I'm just not sure I can do it by myself, which is mostly what it would be with Tom traveling so much.
We're leaving for the barn to take care of the boys.... if anything has changed, I'll let you know. We did stop by the barn after I picked Tom up from the airport last night and got Prince out of his stall to graze a bit... then I hosed him off to cool him down, being careful not to get his feathers wet. He seemed to appreciate that so we'll likely do that again today.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 - 11:15 am:
Well, Jen, unfortunately, you are on the opposite side of the state...so much for my offer. (I'm on the SW side).
Anyway, good luck with finding the right property and I hope you are able to get that case of scratches well under control.
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