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Discussion on I taught him he could say "no!"
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Member:
drlarry
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Posted on Monday, Jul 27, 2009 - 2:40 pm:
While walking around getting familiar with the place, my boy (4yo unbroke appy gelding) spooked at an old corral cover. There's no corral, just a cover, and he wouldn't go near it. I determined that he would get over this, and just kept moving slowly, and walking around and near and between - and he just wouldn't do it. I thought I could outlast him, but this time, he won. We ran out of light, and I taught him that he could say, "no!" NOW what do I do? We'll go check it out again this afternoon, but any hints might be helpful.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Jul 27, 2009 - 5:30 pm:
Oh No.. you don't want him to say no.. hehehe, have you read my thread about my young horse..??
What I have done with spooky things like tin roofs on the ground.. yup we had one of them too.. Is I worked my young horse by it.. having the tin on one side and me on the other.. I would have my horse go back and forth between me and the tin.. often.. no not lunging but walk / disengage, change directions and walk in front of the tin / disengage / change directions over and over and over again.. then rest in front of the tin.. lots of pets / good horse and start the process over again.. It will get to the point that your horse will want to stop for his rest and belly rubs by the tin and forget that it was scary .. you might have to be a fair distance from the tin at first .. but slowly close the gap..
have fun..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
annimule
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Posted on Monday, Jul 27, 2009 - 6:32 pm:
Hey Larry, I have a different spin than many on this list as I am a "clicker trainer. I allow my animals to make a choice. They are allowed to say no while learning. If there is no "no", what power does yes have? <g> I don't want to be in a power struggle with my animals. I am not able to visualize what a corral cover looks like, so I'm working on the assumption that it would be similar to a tarp. I would stand as far away from the object that you can without having your horse react. This exercise is as about exciting as watching grass grow, but it works. I would feed him treats, and pat him and tell him how wonderful he is. When he is totally relaxed, take a step toward the scary object. Repeat treats and pats. It takes time. If he reacts you have gone too far too fast. If you look at your goal behavior, then break it down into as many little chunks as possible, you will make progress.
I might do it a bit differently using a clicker, but the way I describe works. He is not being "bad", he is being a horse! A frightened horse as that. The process I describe is called counter conditioning and desensitization. You want to desensitize him to the cover, and change his mind set (counter conditioning) so he thinks, oh good things happen when I do "X".
Good luck and have fun.
Ann
Ann W. Firestone, President
Save Your Ass Long Ear Rescue
at Broomtail Farm
23 Saw Mill Road
South Acworth, NH 03607
www.saveyourassrescue.org
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Monday, Jul 27, 2009 - 8:26 pm:
With no experience in training other people's horses, I'd like to add my thoughts on this subject......
In my 27 years of horse ownership, I have always left the door to communication open, even when it was not what I wanted to hear. Personally, I feel that the very foundation of trust evolves from a 2 way conversation. If my horse is afraid or does not feel well, how can they communicate that to you without believing that you ARE listening to what they have to say? That very rapport may save their life one day. Instead of doing because they fear punishment, mine have said no and it is up to me to figure out why. Is it because of fear? Illness? Injury? Once I find the reason or "no," then I work the problem thru. If my horse(s) were robots with no emotions, no desire to communicate with me, I would have missed 90% of what they are all about....in my humble opinion.
Don't get me wrong, they are disciplined when called for but it is up to me to figure out the difference between "no, I'm not doing that because I don't want to" and "mom, please don't make me do that because........"
My most priceless and memorable moments came from situations where they felt the need to start the conversation. That, you don't get thru force or not caring what they have to say.....or why. The method you use to react with is only going to work if you first take the time to listen....in my humble opinion.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 27, 2009 - 10:49 pm:
This reminds me of the rubber mats in the barn aisle where I used to work. There were 3 rubber mats going down the aisle that the horses had to walk over to go out to turnout. We had many young horse come and go for training.
The 1 st time I would take them out the blowing and snorting would start and the I'm not going over that black hole attitude would start.
That was fine by me I let them pick their path, whether it would be sidle along side of it, run quickly over it, jump, whatever their little hearts desired. We just kept going. Usually by day 3 they figured out it was no big deal and walked over it.
I always had a working student helping me during the summer, every new student I would explain don't try to pull them over it they are bigger than you and you won't win. Just let them pick their path....Just don't get in their way and get hurt. They all thought I was nuts, but it worked with every horse usually by the 2nd day. Just don't make a production of it horses can say no, you just have to outsmart them and make them think it was their idea! Much easier
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 12:44 am:
Did you make any progress at all? In other words, did he make any progress in stepping closer to it? What I am thinking is this: if he did go any closer to the cover at all, he was saying "yes" too. Maybe getting a little closer is a lot to him even if it did not complete your objective that evening.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 8:16 am:
Hello Larry,
It is actually very easy to recondition a horses response to mildly aversive stimuli. The article associated with this discussion gives a step by step method.
I disagree with Ann W's statement that many on the board disagree with her thoughts. Clicker training is a form of positive reinforcement that must be used in every successful training program and almost everyone I know on this board would agree with this proposition. The clicker, though it represents an extra step, provides a clear easy to use method to positively reward a horse. The tools may be different but it is important to see the common thread among these techniques.
DrO
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Member:
annimule
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 8:41 am:
First of all I want to say thanks to you Dr. O. I guess I am "conditioned" ; ) to hearing people blow me of when I start talking about clicker training. Thank you for letting me know that is not the case on this forum.
I am a dog trainer by profession and have spent hours upon hours trying to wrap my brain around learning theory. I love it, find it fascinating and it helps soo much with training all animals. Something that is always in my mind is the fact that no animal, human or other, can properly process information when they are afraid. Freeze, flight, or fight comes into play. So we need to cut our animals some slack when they are afraid, for whatever reason.
Patty B your post struck a chord with me. I don't want my animals to do what I ask because they are afraid of what will happen if they don't. I want more of a partnership which I feel clicker training gives me.
Thanks to you all for this forum. I enjoy it greatly!
Ann
Ann W. Firestone, President
Save Your Ass Long Ear Rescue
at Broomtail
23 Saw Mill Road
South Acworth, NH 03607
www.saveyourassrescue.org
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 10:26 am:
Make the cover the last thing of importance to you. Instead of trying to get him over it, just ignore it and work him around it. Each time you get a little closer, reward him by relieving the pressure and letting him walk away.
You can use a technique called "sending" where you hold a 15' lead line in one hand and lunge whip in another. Stand several feet away from the cover. Ask the horse to walk between you and the cover. (If he is afraid, you are too close to it). Once he walks past it, turn his haunches away from you and ask him to turn and come back the other direction. Use a cadenced, rhythmic request that never escalates in emotion. Gradually, keep working toward the cover. If he becomes upset, back off a bit and keep working him back and forth until he can get near it without becoming upset. Eventually, he will be quite close and maybe a foot will touch it. Even if he jumps, just keep the emotion down and repeat, repeat, repeat.
If he stops to sniff the cover, praise him, then back off. Don't push him at this point, let his natural curiosity take him over it. The biggest mistake people make is pushing when they get close. Encouragement is a better word. Be encouraging, like a coach. Might even take a couple days if he is that afraid. Just end the day on a good note, someplace where he got a little closer but stayed relaxed, then resume the next day. Done correctly, this method is very effective.
Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
drlarry
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 11:03 am:
Yes, we made progress, but it was slow and tiny - but enough to encourage me that it won't be like this forever. Thank you for all the fun advice! We circled it, I sent him around and between it and me, we went slow, and I stayed calm.
I think I was afraid I'd made an irrepairable mistake! Now I see that it's fixable, but it's gonna take some time - and time means NUTHIN' to a horse!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 5:45 pm:
Time, the magic ingredient that often forgotten  ! A relationship with a horse is always a work in progress.I have 4 and each one is very different.One of mine is/was afraid of everything because he had been forced all his life instead I asked.Now he is a completely trusted friend. Every moment spent with your horse is a teaching /learning moment.So if he offers tiny seconds that is good they will build to minutes that will turn to "what" problem .Good Luck! I love learning from horses!
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 10:36 pm:
I like what Linda has to say about ignoring the cover and tending to the horse. If the horse learns to give you his full attention, the rest follows. "A horse's feet are always trying to go where his mind is." So, if his mind is with you, his feet will go with you too.
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