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Discussion on Research Study: To Post or Not to Post That is the Question
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 26, 2009 - 2:59 am:
It sure seems that posting is easier on the horse's back. It is certainly easier on my backside. This study introduces doubt to this long held belief.
DrO
Equine Vet J. 2009 May;41(5):423-7.
The effect of rising and sitting trot on back movements and head-neck position of the horse.
De Cocq P, Prinsen H, Springer NC, van Weeren PR, Schreuder M, Muller M, van Leeuwen JL.
Experimental Zoology, Animal Sciences Group, Wageningen UR, PO Box 338, NL 6700 AH Wageningen, The Netherlands.
REASON FOR PERFORMING STUDY: During trot, the rider can either rise from the saddle during every stride or remain seated. Rising trot is used frequently because it is widely assumed that it decreases the loading of the equine back. This has, however, not been demonstrated in an objective study. OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of rising and sitting trot on the movements of the horse. HYPOTHESIS: Sitting trot has more extending effect on the horse's back than rising trot and also results in a higher head and neck position. METHODS: Twelve horses and one rider were used. Kinematic data were captured at trot during over ground locomotion under 3 conditions: unloaded, rising trot and sitting trot. Back movements were calculated using a previously described method with a correction for trunk position. Head-neck position was xpressed as extension and flexion of C1, C3 and C6, and vertical displacement of C1 and the bit. RESULTS: Sitting trot had an overall extending effect on the back of horses when compared to the unloaded situation. In rising trot: the maximal flexion of the back was similar to the unloaded situation, while the maximal extension was similar to sitting trot; lateral bending of the back was larger than during the unloaded situation and sitting trot; and the horses held their heads lower than in the other conditions. The angle of C6 was more flexed in rising than in sitting trot. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The back movement during rising trot showed characteristics of both sitting trot and the unloaded condition. As the same maximal extension of the back is reached during rising and sitting trot, there is no reason to believe that rising trot was less challenging for the back.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 26, 2009 - 6:27 am:
Very interesting! I've always wondered what is so bad about just standing up and holding onto the horn for trotting? I used to do that for miles, then figured maybe I needed to learn to post as it was the "correct" thing to do for the sake of the horses back.
I would think in both instances, posting or sitting, if the rider don't have good fluid timing and balance, THAT would be painful for the horses back. Bouncing up and down like a jack hammer or plopping down hard while posting would both be painful actions for the horse.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 26, 2009 - 8:17 am:
Good point Angie, I expect the quality of the sitting trot (both the horse's and rider's) would make a huge difference.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 26, 2009 - 9:01 am:
My dad posted most of the way from West TX across NM because the U.S. Cavalry believed posting was easier on a horses back.
I don't seen where heat was measured on the back. I'd think thermographic studies showing irritation, heat,inflamation of muscles and tendons would be good. I read this article quickly, but it looks like heck extension was used as a measure of discomfort? Is the weight displacement the cause of the neck and back extension and that extension and contraction is tiring to the horse? Why is the head and neck position different in the sitting trot vs the rising trot? Am I missing something? When you look at the headset, it looks the same to me.
also, what about changing diagonals when posting over long distances? something else the Cavalry taught.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 2:06 am:
I don't really understand this report, particularly in the usage of maximal extension and maximal flexion as a measure of comfort or discomfort.
Could you dumb it down for me DrO?
As a personal note, whenever I have tried to protect my mare's back (e.g. when coming back into work after some soreness), I've found to my surprise that she seems to prefer sitting to rising trot. Trotting her in jumping position is another favourite.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 4:29 am:
I agree that it needs to be explained more. I never get heads or tails out of most of the research summaries myself.
I'd like to see some images or videos of what they are talking about.
This reminds me of the many discussions on treed vs treeless saddles.
LL,
You'd think that in standing, like in the jumping position, that would cause discomfort because the weight of the rider is on the stirrups which depending on the saddle, could be concentrated in a very small area.
Sara,
I've never understood changing diagonals. I understand it on a circle, but what difference does it make on a straight line? The weight of the rider is still on the horse. Aren't you just shifting the weight from the back to the stirrups, which as I just said above, concentrates the weight in a smaller area, depending on the saddle?
I am probably waaay overthinking this, lol!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 4:34 am:
Who invented posting? Was it to protect the horses back, or the riders backside? Maybe it came about to help riders stay in shape and not stiffen up over long distances.
Enquiring minds want to know!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 7:04 am:
O.K. I'm probably really overthinking this also, but wouldn't the lead leg on a diagonal, (or a cantor for that matter)have more weight put on it? So, if you use the same diagonal (or lead) all the time, you are stressing the lead leg more than the other front leg? And, you would also be building up muscle unevenly.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 9:58 am:
Now, I can see more weight on the lead leg on the canter, hence being on the correct lead on a circle or corner, BUT, at a trot, isn't the weight evenly balanced on all 4 legs? And wouldn't you be putting MORE weight on the front leg coming up into the post vs sitting and keeping your weight stable in one place?
Again...we are assuming the rider is not sitting like a bag of potatoes, and has their movement with the horse.
Now that brings to mind another question: What is our weight doing to the horses back and weight bearing legs during canter work?
Gee whiz DrO, why did ya have go and post about posting??
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 2:11 pm:
Angie, maybe I should have said "force" as opposed to weight at the trot. It seems to me that the lead foot hits the ground with more force. Thinking about it more, I can see what you are saying about it's only being at the cantor, but I'm still not sure. We need slow motion video, a saddle pad that senses heat and weight distribution, and maybe sensors on the feet also to study this more.
Rachelle races trotters, maybe she could confirm that weight distribution is the same on all four feet. If it is, then how about the weight of the rider on the back and shoulder at the trot, and does it depend on the type of saddle? Cowboys usually post on long rides, as did the Calvery; seems like their must be a reason. btw, posting correctly, weight would be more from the point of your knees wouldn't it, at least in an English saddle? Aren't you supposed to rise from the knee/thigh and not the foot? Some weight would be in the stirrup, of course, but weight would also go from the seat to the knee and thigh area, which would give the back some relief?
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 4:58 pm:
Sara,
This was a tough one, while I would like to say trotters do have equal distribution, there are a lot of things to take into consideration.
One would be they are gaited to go at speed ( very fast speeds) and they pull race bikes and jog carts that changes their center of gravity. They are shod heavier in front and lighter behind (trotters)and pacers go heavier behind and lighter in the front. Pacers have a parallel gait and move side to side and thus distribute their weight on two legs on the same side at the same time and trotters distribute their weight diagonally. Also going around a racetrack makes standardbreds distribute their weight on different legs at different times ( turns vs. straightaways)
Ultimately if we lived in a perfect world they would all be 100% sound and thus evenly weight their legs, but there are too many variables to make that judgement. I guess one would have to say that it depends on what they are doing, when they are doing it and if they are sound.
I have ridden ( when much younger) pacers, trotters and riding horses (English)and found the pacers are much more comfortable at a sitting trot at any speed. The trotters were more comfortable to ride standing up especially at speed and the riding horses, well it really depended on the breed, the discipline, the mentality and the collection of the individual horse.
Just my two cents worth.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 5:43 pm:
DrO,
Looks like you will have to find or do, more research on this or some of us, like Sara & I, will not get any sleep,
Sara,
O.k., so if you post correctly, (which I may or may not do, so we'll leave me out of the test results, lol!) I agree you would not be weighting the stirrups as rise from the knee & thigh as you put it. So I think that would be putting more weight on that front leg you are putting your weight over.
Hmmm..but as you come up in the post, you actually come forward, correct? And meanwhile the horse is moving forward also...
In standing at the trot, you may or may not be putting pressure on the horses back/rib cage, depending on where the stirrups are attached. And how the saddle it built.
I don't know much about English saddles, but don't the stirrup leathers attach towards the front of the saddle? I only have a Wintec Aussie for comparision, and I am sure there are lots of differences in English saddle stirrup leather placements.
Now, what I remember about the calvary saddles, weren't the leathers attached to the front and rear of the saddle, just as the cinch was? Or am I remembering wrong?
In which case, standing up in those stirrups would distribute the riders weight more evenly.
Just some more of my thoughts on it. I bet the real reason the calvary posted was because those saddles had no padding, and their butts got pretty sore,
One other thing: Doesn't a saddle tree sit on the horses ribs? We always say back, but is it really the back or more the ribs? I know I know it's all BACK....again, which saddle and how it fits...just so many variables.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Aug 28, 2009 - 10:22 am:
Re posting: as posting is carried out in a regular rhythm, unless the rider changes diagonal once in a while she will always be sitting (i.e. adding her weight) when the SAME front and hind legs are weight bearing.
That's why it's better to change diagonal I would think, even when trotting in a straight line.}
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Aug 28, 2009 - 12:04 pm:
LL, that explains why you switch diagonals; but does that help the horse's back and how?
Angie KJ, the tree sits on the back with most of the weight along either side of the back bone. Even with big western saddles, not much of the tree is on the ribs...unless, I guess, you mean where the ribs attach to the back bone.
All the old cavalry saddles I've seen had the stirrup leather attached in a balanced position towards the front, much like today's dressage saddles or the Stonewall endurance saddles (only endurance brand I'm familiar with.) The double straps you are thinking about are attached to the girth/cinch leathers; the purpose being to more evenly distribute pressure from the girth and to keep the saddle from moving a lot.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Aug 28, 2009 - 3:43 pm:
I think posting began as a relief for the rider, not the horse. Funny but I've always wondered if it didn't sort of bother the horse to have a rider rising and landing. I have noticed that sitting a slow trot makes it easier to get a horse round. But like some of you say, I think it depends on the horse's gaits, and the rider's suppleness. If you are bouncing or stiff, I would imagine it would be uncomfortable for both of you.
Most times if trotting fast or for a long distance, I prefer to just stand just slightly out of the saddle, using legs as shock absorbers.
I think there is a research report in the current Equus mag about this topic. I'll see if I can find it and check if they have anything to add.
Erika
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 29, 2009 - 12:21 am:
Angie: yes, you'd think jumping position/standing in stirrups might concentrate discomfort in a smaller area, but it doesn't seem to ... maybe because as Erika says you can use the legs as shock absorbers, and perhaps also that specific area of the horse is better able to deal with the weight? And after all, showjumpers are out of the saddle most of the time with no visible ill effect on the horse.
Sara: I would think that it does help the back somewhat as it is the back that receives the rider's weight and although the rider is hopefully distributing her weight equally acros the horse's back, it seems likely to me that this weight has a different effect on the weightbearing leg side than the "airborne" side.
As to the "how" of it .. no idea!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 29, 2009 - 5:17 am:
Well, I looked through my magazine and of course I can't find the article I wanted. Maybe last issue. I'll keep looking.
Angie and LL, I'm not sure I agree about standing in the stirrups concentrating weight. I think it depends on what you are riding in. Yes, a bareback pad with stirrups, or possibly a treeless saddle (not familiar with how they are built) may allow concentration at the attachment area, but in a conventional saddle I think it wouldn't. The saddle's tree and panels would spread the weight out over a larger area--kind of like a snowshoe does. If you spread out the weight, there is less pressure per square inch, even though the total weight is the same. So just like the snowshoe spreads out a person's weight to prevent poking through the snow, the saddle prevents pressure spots.
I think another benefit of standing is that it prevents back and forth pressures of one's rear (from inertia). I know I hold up better on a very long ride if I stand more, too!
Erika
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 29, 2009 - 8:15 am:
A word about diagonals: I have an arab gelding who has a very big trot, is long legged and short coupled. When he is out on the trail and really opens up his trot, he actually gets going a little sideways with his legs set a little to the inside/outside of each other (think shoulder-in) to keep from forging. Some big dogs do this too .. they will be traveling in a straight line but with their body at an angle to the direction of travel. Anyway when I post to this trot I switch diagonals to switch the 'bend' and switch which legs are to the inside and outside to prevent fatigue. Has anyone else ridden a horse that does this? Any thoughts on the benefit of sitting versus rising versus standing on this kind of trot?
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 29, 2009 - 7:13 pm:
Interesting discussion.
Regarding changing diagonols, I was taught that if you are rising when the left front is also rising the right rear pushes you up.
If you stay on the same diagonal there will be uneven muscling.
I have wondered about old old time cowboys, did they post, I know calvary men did but did other western horse people?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 6:53 am:
I don't know about "old time" cowboys, but all the modern ones I know post almost anytime their horse is trotting faster than a jog.
True what you say about the rear leg/hip pushing you up. On a big moving, high trotting horse it is almost impossible to sit the trot. I'll have to pay more attention, however, as I don't remember how it feels on the wrong diagonal. And...I'm still uncertain how posting helps the horse.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 9:01 am:
This discussion has me thinking. I stated I was taught, it seems this line of teaching is wide spread, at least in my area, but is it factual?
The idea that there may be more impact on the horse on the downswing of the posting seems logical but rocket scientist I am not.
I think stirrup leather placement would help distribute or concentrate weight, but again, I don't know.
This fits into the category of one of those ideas that seem to make sense that have been taught for years, that are accepted as fact but have never been studied.
Although to someone who understands physics better than I the reasoning could be quite obvious.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 10:36 am:
"This fits into the category of one of those ideas that seem to make sense that have been taught for years, that are accepted as fact but have never been studied."
I agree with that. But I don't know how much it's been studied.
I like Erika's snowshoe analogy also.
This is like when we discussed the why of holding 4 reins the way we do.
Or the great ongoing debate with shod vs barefoot.
Or how harmful/helpful riding in a treeless saddle is.
Guess I'll just stick to asking my horses, lol!
BTW, if giving my grandkids a piggy back ride, I'd prefer they sit still, not bounce up & down. Same on my shoulders.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 10:47 am:
Ha! Angie, I was just logging on to say the same thing--about the piggy back rides, that is. Great minds do think alike, huh?
Erika
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 1:20 pm:
This is very interesting and I think the most important thing for the horse is relaxed riding with a balanced, proper seat, and also as stated by some, moving with the horse more than technically perfect posting "technique."
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 11:30 am:
Here are some things to consider:
1. Weight is weight, 160 pounds is the same whether standing or sitting. Yes, the saddle distributes it differently than bareback, but when riding in a saddle it is the same weight either way.
2. If it is true that a horse develops uneven muscle if ridden on one diagonal only, then it stands to reason that he is carrying more load on one body part than another. So the load is carried differently on the legs when posting or sitting the trot, but the same load is carried over the back either way.
3. If you imagine yourself jogging along with a monkey on your back and the monkey is moving in rhythm to your footsteps, then he helps you move forward just a bit because his momentum propels you. So you are getting a little more impulsion from the same amount of exertion.
My conclusion is a balanced, posting trot does not help the horse's back (same weight) but it does help him move forward more freely and with less exertion, thus a help to him on a long journey.
Just my two cents worth.
Linda
P.S. I thought cowboys used the slow jog and sat the trot for long journeys and that is why we are judged on that in Western classes?
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 3:47 pm:
Racehorse times were steady for some time until jockeys began to stand up in the stirrups instead of sitting on the back. Then they jumped to significantly faster paces. Possibly because standing up stopped the forward and back motion in contact with the horse's back. They still carried the same weight, but it wasn't bouncing or pushing back and forth with each stride.
I think it is a little like a backpack analogy, carrying dead weight on your back is a lot easier if it is on a good backpack frame. It distributes the weight better (like a saddle frame) and keeps it away from total contact with one's back (less wobbling of the load).
Of course, a rider isn't "dead weight", but I do think being off of the horse during vigorous movement might help the horse move more easily. Posting at least gets you off the horse 50% of the time, so maybe it helps the horse. I practiced today with a brisk trot, and I know that regardless of whether it helps the horse, it definitely helps the rider!
I agree all of you that switching diagonals is a good idea.
Linda, the only cowboys I know curse out us English riders for trotting so much on the trail rides. They seem to prefer to skip the trot altogether!
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