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Discussion on Should I?
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 12:31 pm:
I have an opportunity to take on a free lease horse to ride for the winter. YAY! I neeeed that!
The problem is that he is a cribber. I hear he is controlled by electric fence.
My pasture is 4 board plank ala KY. And my barn is all wood. So I will have to keep him out of that.
I have no expierence with cribbers, other than the horror stories. Will I need to run hot wire on each board or will one strand by the top be ok?
Ive read DrOs article and the related threads but thought I would ask my HA friends what they think.
PS my hubby would kill me if the horse eats our plank. Especially if the place is up for sale LOL
But I really, really need something to ride!
I dont want to buy a new horse as Lara will be ready to start next spring.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 1:05 pm:
WELLL Leslie that's a hard question, it really depends on how adamant he is about cribbing. Some horses stop cribbing once they are put on 24/7 turnout...some don't.
If you put an electric fence wire about in the high/middle of the fence and use the wood fence post insulators....they stick out further, that should keep him away from the fence...make it very HOT the first zap is the important one You MAY have to add a lower one, depends on how determined he is and if he can get his "fix" somewhere else.
IF he wants to crib he'll find something to do it on regardless, but at least it won't be your fence! I have seen cribbers stop once they aren't bored anymore and have pasture in front of them, I also have seen them NOT stop!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 3:31 pm:
Cribbers are different than wood chewers, aren't they?
One strand of hot wire, in my experience, definitely would not be enough to dissuade a cribber or a chewer.
There are so many good horses out there, I would probably pass on one with a bad vice.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 4:10 pm:
Vicki I think cribbers are a little more addicted to their vice, I think wood chewers are usually just bored, especially if they are stalled for long periods.
When I worked at the boarding barn there were 4 cribbers (wind suckers). None of them came with the habit. Their turnout there was not up to par in my book, most horses only got out a couple hours a day and some of them were too young to be in that long....anyway, once they were sold and put out on 24/7 turnout the habit disappeared, except in one. Their stalls did look like termites lived in there quite destructive. When they were outside on pasture they didn't touch the fences....except that one. That's why I think it really depends on the horse and what's causing the cribbing in the 1st place and how ingrained it is. 90% of the ones I have seen started because they were stalled too long, didn't have buddies to inter act with, and were just plain bored (how often do you see pasture kept horses start the habit of cribbing?) There was no stopping the other 10%.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 5:21 pm:
I had a American Saddlebred many years ago who was a show horse and had just been gelded at 7 years old when I bought him. He never lost the cribbing habit, but it never seemed to harm him either. Mostly it just annoyed me! He never did it any place but in the stall.
If you see where the horse likes to crib, try putting some hot sause on it, and that, with hot wire on the fence, maybe he'll forget about doing it.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 8:26 pm:
The information about cribbing on this site is interesting and thought provoking...a good read.
As I understand it, cribbing involves "wind sucking" which is not the same as chewing on wooden planks.
I agree with DianE;s statement that in general, the behavior seems compulsive. A horse that wants to crib will find a way. I've seen horses use pipe rails and tree stumps for cribbing, and even know one horse that found a way to suck wind without bracing against anything! He "air cribs" whenever...wherever.
Although cribbing can affect the animal's muscular development, which is particularly noticeable through the neck, this horse is a free lease, so that's not a problem that you will own. Some report that the cribbing can cause colic, but I personally have not noticed that.
Nonetheless, if I were leasing a cribber, I'd insure the horse well against mortality. Probably you'll do that anyway, but IMHO this situation makes insurance more important than usual. I hope that you totally enjoy the horse. Good luck.
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 3:40 am:
Hey Leslie, sounds interesting. I would look at a) a well-fitted miracle collar (they really do work) see https://www.miraclecollar.com ; and
b) there is a body of research that suggests cribbing may be related to chronic, low level hind-gut acidosis. You might want to check the diet and cut down on grain.
I am not saying these steps will eliminate cribbing, but they sure can reduce the behaviour so you don't have your barn and/or fences destroyed...
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 10:37 am:
My biggest fear would be having the other horses pick up on the cribbing. There has been some evidence that they learn from watching it.
I hate the electric collars. Cribbing is mostly a harmless, although annoying habit, but if the horse is so driven to do it, it seems like adding a shock to something it feels compelled to do..well, just doesn't seem like a nice thing to do.
I can certainly sympathize with your desire to ride, though, Leslie. Hope it works out one way or another.
Erika
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 11:10 am:
On the other hand, DrO's article states, "It is said that horses can also learn this behavior watching other horses do it but there are dozens of examples where cribbing horses were kept with non cribbers without ill effect. Nor does there appear to be an increased incidence of colic in cribbers."
I'm with Erika on the collar issue. It would only stress out the horse when it is doing an acquired stress-reducing behavior in the first place. It sounds like keeping him outside and adjusting his feed might help him, and would be worth trying.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 12:26 pm:
All,
I am not sure where I saw it but someone somewhere posted that cribbing gives a horse a pleasurable endorphan release and they continue to do it to get this release (as Diane says their "fix") so, what I might try to do is do activities with the horse that would give him this release without him having to crib to get it. Massage therapy comes to mind, Chi machine therapy(sound waves) comes to mind, electromagnetic therapy comes to mind. Also putting him into as natural habitat as possible to relieve his stress and boredom (if that's whats causing it).
If this were me and I was making this decision, I would ask for a week or two on a trial, just to see what would happen in a different environmental situation. It might just be that there would be no problem at all and you would end up with something ridable for the winter. There is always the opposite end possibility, but I'd take it one step at a time.
Rachelle
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 12:39 pm:
Hi Leslie,
While it is possible that access to a pasture 24/7 might make a difference, the miracle collar would be much cheaper and a lot less labor than putting up a hot wire. If you go to the site provided by Cheryl you will see that the miracle collar is NOT an electric collar. They do work and a horse who is addicted will find a place or a way to do it no matter how many hot wires you string.
Cynthia
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 1:32 pm:
Thanks to all.
I am going to drive by his house and check out his envioroment. see how the owner keeps him.
My trainer tells me his cribbing is kept under control with electric fence.
If I decide to lease him I will use the collar and/or electric.
I keep my horses pastured 24/7 with access to the barn if they wish.
I definately dont want my Lara learning to crib from him and would keep her in a different pasture...although she will be able to see him somewhat.
I like the idea of a trial time.
...the spousal unit knows another horse might be coming but doesnt know hes a cribber.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 1:59 pm:
It seems that we are discussing at least two issues in this thread. One issue is "symptom management," and another is "disorder management."
Cynthia,
This is from DrO's article on cribbing:
"If started very early in the behavior, a cribbing strap may prevent the behavior from becoming fixed. Cribbing straps are effective for most confirmed cribbers but must be put on tightly. Cribbing straps vary in design and harshness. Use the mildest strap you can get by with. To prevent sores from developing, buy several cribbing strap covers and keep a clean cover on the strap by changing it every few days. A relatively new version marketed under the name "Miracle Collar", has proven to be very effective and most horses seem to be able to wear this collar without developing sores."
I have seen horses get sores from cribbing straps, other horses develop secondary stall vices, and others circumvent the collar when the compulsion to crib is stifled.
If we believe the hypothesis that a horse with a stall vice is addicted to its own neurochemistry, then if it cannot "fix" in the original way, couldn't that increase the likeliness of it developing another? I wonder if the anxiety reducing behavior is frustrated, won't the anxiety increase? What will the horse do about THAT?
Rachelle,
You might have seen the following in DrO's article: "All of the common stable vices stem from poor adaption to captive management. They are mostly psychological adaptations that appear to calm the horse. Some of these vices even have established biochemical pathways and are analogous to drug addiction: the behavior causes the release of chemicals in the brain that give pleasure to the horse. With this is mind, two points jump out:
* Punishment for a stable vice will probably stress the horse more and worsen the problem.
* Prevention is done by providing as comfortable an environment as is possible. The following list should help:
o Allow as much pasture time as possible.
o When stalled make hay available constantly.
o Avoid keeping a horse stalled alone.
o Keep windows open so the horse can see out, even better is to allow him to stick his head out...
* Minimizing the amount of grain required by feeding excellent quality forage and a little alfalfa, should reduce the incidence of cribbing in young horses."
So much to think about, so little time...sigh.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 2:03 pm:
Actually the cribbers at the barn wore "miracle collars" and they still cribbed.
None of the horses at the barn picked up the habit from the other cribbers, so I'm not so certain it is a learned behavior. My neighbor also" had" a cribber, he wore his teeth down and the stall was a disaster... another case of boredom I believe, she only turns out a couple hours a day (IF that) The other horses did not pick up the habit, and he was right next to and across from them, for some reason I think certain horses are just more prone to it. He never cribbed during turnout.
Leslie I think you would be smart to go check out his enviroment and see when he does this OR if he does it all the time. A trial period would be a good idea.
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Member:
dsibley
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 5:27 pm:
My big QH, Mister (who is for sale, BTW, on dreamhorse...'This Misters All Dun) learned to crib from a horse in the next stall when I boarded. I begged to have him moved, and was denied. Now he cribs. He was stalled 24/7 with very little turnout as a weanling, and learned to weave as well. This was, of course, before I bought him.
The cribbing is well-controlled by a Miracle Collar. He is never stalled due to excessive weaving when confined. When he is kept outside in our lean-to with individual runs, he only weaves at mealtime, but never skips dinner to weave. Some horses will weave or crib to the exclusion of food.
Miracle Collars must be fitted well. If three horses are using them and are still cribbing, I would venture to say that someone should contact the company for fitting advice. I even had a custom piece made for mine that keeps neighboring horses from pulling it off. Mister learned to 'agitate' his neighbors so they would grab the straps of the collar and pull it off! Then he was free to crib all night and they had a lovely toy to destroy. Grrr....
I also have a broodmare who is a cribber. She cribs with her chin: very discreet and ladylike. But I DO NOT want her beautiful baby to learn the habit, so she wears the collar 24/7 as well. Mister's is taken off when in the pasture..he will sometimes go and grab a 'toke' off the fence posts, but not too often. However, the broodmare wears hers all the time. I want no chance that the baby will learn to do this, as she is for sale as well.
Neither horse seems to have any adverse affects from being kept from their habit. Once the collar is off, though, they are right back to it.
Wood-chewing is different. The cribbers hook their teeth...or chin...and arch their necks and make a pig sound when they suck air. I have found that wood chewers can be deterred by rubbing Dial soap over the tops of the rails. It has to be reapplied after a rain, but sooner or later, they seem to lose interest.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 4:16 pm:
Thanks everyone for all the great insightful advice.
Appreciated.
I am really having a hard time deciding. If I didnt have my sweet Lara I wouldnt hesitate...I just dont want to take a chance with her learning it.
LOL, I seriously doubt Pumpkin would ever crib...it would take away too much time from eating so shes probably safe from learning it.
L
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 3:28 pm:
So I went and rode the cribber yesterday. He is a sweet and uncomplicated ride.
I think I am going to free-lease him for the winter. I am going to string electric up on the top board (maybe top 2 boards) and see how he does. He will crib on his water trough. She said he doesnt colic.
I think it will be a win/win situation for both me and the owner...as I will have something to ride this winter and the horse will get more formal training (he is dead broke to trail ride but has had no dressage or jumping training)
I plan on keeping Lara girl in the back pasture...where she will hopefully--hear no evil...see no evil and therefore learn no evil!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 5:08 pm:
Cool, Leslie!
I found this article on cribbing. Newest research says it is NOT learned behavior. Check it out:
https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=14706
Have fun with the new horse!
Erika
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 10:54 pm:
Leslie, I hope that you enjoy him lots. I had hoped that you would take him if he was good to ride, and as Erika says, it seems to be an inherited predisposition rather than learned behavior.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 11:52 am:
Thanks guys! I think he will be fun for the winter.
Erika
thanks for the article interesting stuff...I personally believe its caused by horses being stalled (and none are stalled more,fed more grain and less hay than the Thorobred younglings.)
Ive never heard of a pastured horse 'starting' this behaviour...unless its already been doing it in a stall before.
So 'Skeeter' he is definately a dedicated 'crackhead', but I think I can manage him ok for a few months. His weight isnt affected by it. but his topline needs work..
I will post pics when I get him hehehe sorry but its like getting a new horse and I just wanna share my joy
One again thanks for the words of encouragement!
L
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